I'd like one as well!  Thanks for the effort!

Ken.


>From: "faelach69" <wardfarm777@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] Comprehensive Adunaic Wordlist
>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:03:15 -0000
>
>   As I stated earlier, I've been at work on an Adunaic wordlist with
>every Adunaic word and it's various inflections. This project has been
>on my mind for awhile now, and I finally got around to doing it!
>   Unfortunately, the list is WAY too big to post here, so if you want
>me to send it to you personally, just reply to this message and express
>your interest. I hope many people will find this to be useful, because
>that's why I made it.
>   An entry is formatted like so:
>
>"abâr (n. Weak) `strength, endurance, fidelity' [BAR]: s. abâra, pl.
>abârî, s.pl. abârîya, o. abâru"
>
>   Verbs, Adjectives, Names and everything else are included, with
>translations and inflections of each.
>
>Hope some of you will want this...
>
>BJ
>
>
>
>
>--
>Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
>Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
>Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger
Café. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1

Having had a chance to glance at a copy of this text, I must say that
my first reaction is not to note all the places where past analysts
(including me) got things wrong -- as such "errors" were inevitable and,
given the state of the data, irremediable at the time.  It is rather to
note where the analysts got things right, working only with published
material.  Such analyses, being often not the subject of controversy
(though in all justice they might have been), often fall into "received
wisdom" and so receive no notice.  However, I have personal knowledge,
in some cases, from what slender chains of evidence some of the
conclusions were derived, and it is merciful to note when they are
vindicated.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

'  However, I have personal knowledge,
>in some cases, from what slender chains of evidence some of the
>conclusions were derived, and it is merciful to note when they are
>vindicated.'

I find this a cheering perspective. Would you be prepared to talk us through
some examples, David?
I find it exceptionally interesting.
Thanks

Mark

_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here!  http://www.newhotmail.co.uk

Hello,

I would love to have a copy too.

Thanks, Ruth

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "faelach69" <wardfarm777@...> wrote:
>
>   As I stated earlier, I've been at work on an Adunaic wordlist
with
> every Adunaic word and it's various inflections. This project has
been
> on my mind for awhile now, and I finally got around to doing it!
>   Unfortunately, the list is WAY too big to post here, so if you
want
> me to send it to you personally, just reply to this message and
express
> your interest. I hope many people will find this to be useful,
because
> that's why I made it.
>   An entry is formatted like so:
>
> "abâr (n. Weak) `strength, endurance, fidelity' [BAR]: s. abâra,
pl.
> abârî, s.pl. abârîya, o. abâru"
>
>   Verbs, Adjectives, Names and everything else are included, with
> translations and inflections of each.
>
> Hope some of you will want this...
>
> BJ
>

I'd love to have a copy of your work as well!
Thank you =D


On 9/10/07, faelach69 <wardfarm777@...> wrote:
>
>   As I stated earlier, I've been at work on an Adunaic wordlist with
> every Adunaic word and it's various inflections. This project has been
> on my mind for awhile now, and I finally got around to doing it!
> Unfortunately, the list is WAY too big to post here, so if you want
> me to send it to you personally, just reply to this message and express
> your interest. I hope many people will find this to be useful, because
> that's why I made it.
> An entry is formatted like so:
>
> "abâr (n. Weak) `strength, endurance, fidelity' [BAR]: s. abâra, pl.
> abârî, s.pl. abârîya, o. abâru"
>
> Verbs, Adjectives, Names and everything else are included, with
> translations and inflections of each.
>
> Hope some of you will want this...
>
> BJ
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>  Having had a chance to glance at a copy of this text, I must say that
> my first reaction is not to note all the places where past analysts
> (including me) got things wrong -- as such "errors" were inevitable and,
> given the state of the data, irremediable at the time.

I beg to disagree here - my main point in a previous post was that a
number of features could have been expected, had the early material been
thoroughly examined and seemingly odd forms appreciated sufficiently.
Thus, I maintain that there were errors which were not inevitable (see
#34406).

> It is rather to
> note where the analysts got things right, working only with published
> material.  Such analyses, being often not the subject of controversy
> (though in all justice they might have been), often fall into "received
> wisdom" and so receive no notice.

This is (with a small caveat), certainly true. The small caveat is the
definition of 'right' - while PE17 deals with e.g. post-LOTR Sindarin, the
material contained in the volume is hardly free from internal
contradictions, for example we find three explanations for _govannen_ - so
I find it difficult to pick the 'right' one. In addition, there certainly
is yet more post-LOTR material which may or may not agree with PE17.

But it is true that there are examples where (as far as I can see) the
analysis of previous material has found the relevant patterns, and these
go largely uncontroversial and perhaps for that reason unappreciated. The
development from CE roots to Vocabulary seems to be such a case -
derivational suffixes have been studied in the Etymologies, compared with
information from later material, the development of Noldorin has been
worked out, differences to later Sindarin identified and appreciated - so
I think this area is not in a bad shape.

Likewise the plural patterns - Beregond's 'Attested Sindarin Plurals'
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_plur.html
and Bertrand Bellet's 'The Noldorin Plurals in the Etymologies'
http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/articles/Bellet/noldplur.phtml
allow a systematic comparison of the development and show the main
patterns and their evolution, consequently there may still be unexpected
forms, but the pattern seems to be understood.

> However, I have personal knowledge,
> in some cases, from what slender chains of evidence some of the
> conclusions were derived, and it is merciful to note when they are
> vindicated.

I think one has to be aware that the probability to score a hit by chance
is often unexpectedly high (i.e. there is a lot of implicit evidence which
narrows down possibilities significantly). For example, we had not seen
any Sindarin or Noldorin pronominal table - but we did know that the 2nd
person is associated with _k, d, l_ - furthermore we did know (from
Quenya) that considerable variation in the assignment of the consonants is
expected - so any 'random' 2nd person ending assigned to
formal/familiar/sg./pl./dual which is consistent with Sindarin phonology
has actually a pretty good chance to agree with at least one table of
Sindarin forms.

Furthermore, it would be interesting to compare the number of guesses
based on small evidence which did not work out with the number which did -
if I predict 1000 forms and I get 10 right - chances are you'll not think
well of my prophetic powers knowing these numbers, but if I just present
the 10 I get right and don't mention the others, people may view that in a
different way.

But I am straying - I, too, would be interested in what examples you have
in mind, and I'd like to ask if it is fair to view 'Gateway' as the sum of
your expectations/predictions/conclusions.

* Thorsten

I'd like a copy too, please, and thanks in advance!

Erelleth
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: faelach69
   To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:03 PM
   Subject: [elfling] Comprehensive Adunaic Wordlist


   As I stated earlier, I've been at work on an Adunaic wordlist with
   every Adunaic word and it's various inflections. This project has been
   on my mind for awhile now, and I finally got around to doing it!
   Unfortunately, the list is WAY too big to post here, so if you want
   me to send it to you personally, just reply to this message and express
   your interest. I hope many people will find this to be useful, because
   that's why I made it.
   An entry is formatted like so:

   "abâr (n. Weak) `strength, endurance, fidelity' [BAR]: s. abâra, pl.
   abârî, s.pl. abârîya, o. abâru"

   Verbs, Adjectives, Names and everything else are included, with
   translations and inflections of each.

   Hope some of you will want this...

   BJ






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi there.  If it isn't any more trouble, I'd love a copy as well.  Thanks
for the hard work!

Jon

On 9/12/07, Rita Sep¨²lveda Garc¨ªa <rita.sepulveda@...> wrote:
>
>   I'd like a copy too, please, and thanks in advance!
>
> Erelleth
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: faelach69
> To: elfling@yahoogroups.com <elfling%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:03 PM
> Subject: [elfling] Comprehensive Adunaic Wordlist
>
> As I stated earlier, I've been at work on an Adunaic wordlist with
> every Adunaic word and it's various inflections. This project has been
> on my mind for awhile now, and I finally got around to doing it!
> Unfortunately, the list is WAY too big to post here, so if you want
> me to send it to you personally, just reply to this message and express
> your interest. I hope many people will find this to be useful, because
> that's why I made it.
> An entry is formatted like so:
>
> "ab¨¡r (n. Weak) `strength, endurance, fidelity' [BAR]: s. ab¨¡ra, pl.
> ab¨¡r¨©, s.pl. ab¨¡r¨©ya, o. ab¨¡ru"
>
> Verbs, Adjectives, Names and everything else are included, with
> translations and inflections of each.
>
> Hope some of you will want this...
>
> BJ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BJ

I have been working (slowly!!!) on similar - does include the Atalante
fragments?  Would love to see a copy.

Thanks, Andy

Andrew Higgins
asthiggins@...
"Alles ist nach seiner Art, an ihr wirst du nichts andern." Siegfried Act 2
http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=833145056



----- Original Message ----
From: coegwendeth <oselleruth@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 11 September, 2007 8:15:17 PM
Subject: [elfling] Re: Comprehensive Adunaic Wordlist













             Hello,



I would love to have a copy too.



Thanks, Ruth



--- In elfling@yahoogroups .com, "faelach69" <wardfarm777@ ...> wrote:

>

>   As I stated earlier, I've been at work on an Adunaic wordlist

with

> every Adunaic word and it's various inflections. This project has

been

> on my mind for awhile now, and I finally got around to doing it!

>   Unfortunately, the list is WAY too big to post here, so if you

want

> me to send it to you personally, just reply to this message and

express

> your interest. I hope many people will find this to be useful,

because

> that's why I made it.

>   An entry is formatted like so:

>

> "abâr (n. Weak) `strength, endurance, fidelity' [BAR]: s. abâra,

pl.

> abârî, s.pl. abârîya, o. abâru"

>

>   Verbs, Adjectives, Names and everything else are included, with

> translations and inflections of each.

>

> Hope some of you will want this...

>

> BJ

>














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       ___________________________________________________________
Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good 
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, guys!
I've made a small, first try, Sindarin translation, and I'd like your
feedback on it, if it's possible.

The words translated are:

son of the Moon

My translation is:

ion Ithil

The reasoning behind it is that Ithil is a proper name, therefore the
article is omitted, right?
Case I'm wrong, there could more than one way to express this, right? I did
the following:

ion en Ithil
ion i Ithil (sounds hard and ugly :P)
ion na Ithil

-x-

Trying to advance a little, I tried to translate the following words:

"son of the Moon and the Sun"

Here, I think I messed things up, because I can't really find a reasoning
for my translations :)

ion Ithil ah Anor

(or 'ion Anor ah Ithil', for better sounding)
(again, assuming Anor is a proper name)

Or, expliciting the article...

ion en Ithil ah en Anor (this got really unpleasant to read)

Or, variations of it with better sounding in mind, like "ion en Ithil ah i
Anor".

-x-

So, did I get anything right, anything wrong?
Thanks in advance!

Thiago

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thiago Cesar" <thjayo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, guys!
> I've made a small, first try, Sindarin translation, and I'd like your
> feedback on it, if it's possible.
>
> The words translated are:
>
> son of the Moon
>
> My translation is:
>
> ion Ithil
>
> The reasoning behind it is that Ithil is a proper name, therefore the
> article is omitted, right?

Well, there's no doubt in my mind that _Anor_ and _Ithil_ are proper
nouns (names, in fact), as the Sun and Moon are personified (female
and male, respectively) by their respective Maiar (Arien and Tilion).

As for whether the article is omitted with a name or proper noun, I
think Thorsten Renk's article (particularly the section on the
Genitive) on the Sindarin Case System will be of use to you:

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/cases.html

> "son of the Moon and the Sun"
>
> Here, I think I messed things up, because I can't really find a
reasoning
> for my translations :)
>
> ion Ithil ah Anor
>
> (or 'ion Anor ah Ithil', for better sounding)
> (again, assuming Anor is a proper name)

Based on the previously mentioned article, that looks fine to me. :)

- Matt

Hey everybody,

I've found a new group (only 2 people so far, including myself) for
elvish-beginners. It is amazing how much easier it is to get into a
language when you have others around you who are trying just as hard as
you. Nota Bene, the group leader has requested that only beginners
join--that is the whole purpose of the group. If people want that also,
theycan join any of the other groups (like this one).

Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfschool/join
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfschool/join>

or click here
   [Click here to join elfschool]
Click to join elfschool <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfschool/join>
--Borondir


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "number1mn" <anthonyjallan@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hey everybody,
>
> I've found a new group (only 2 people so far, including myself) for
> elvish-beginners. It is amazing how much easier it is to get into a
> language when you have others around you who are trying just as hard as
> you. Nota Bene, the group leader has requested that only beginners
> join--that is the whole purpose of the group. If people want that also,
> theycan join any of the other groups (like this one).

I suppose I'm being pessimistic, but what happens when the beginners
'learn' something incorrect and they don't realize it's wrong, so they
don't bother to "consult higher groups"? They just continue along,
having others 'learn' the same incorrect thing, without anyone to ever
tell them that maybe they're mistaken, because no one has a clue
there's anything wrong?

A possible compromise would be to have non-beginners able to join but
just read/lurk and post only when necessary, e.g. only if none of the
beginners realize that there's something wrong. But you may not like
that scenario, and it might end up turning into "that complicated
stuff that goes on in other elvish chat groups", i.e. discussion,
which may counter the stated purpose of the group.

Just a question — I'm wondering how this new group will face that
problem, if it occurs.

Regards and good luck,
Matt

I am in full agreement with Matthew on this. It would be most helpful
if you could find a mentor.

Not me!! I am still learning (lurking in the background here and on
other sites devoted to the study of Elvish languages).

There is another site that caters to beginners (google groups elvish,
although it has not been active lately). There are a couple of people
that belong to it that can help with beginners' questions.

Last year I was lucky enough to find a group of people who could get
together on a Yahoo conference, and we met weekly to discuss the
lessons (1 every week or two), and we got through about half of them
before we sort of faded away. It was helpful because we had a couple
of participants who were advanced who could help us with questions. I
would love to to get another group like that going if I could find any
interested parties. If you are interested in trying this let me know!
And anyone else out there who is lurking in the background like me is
also welcome to join us if we can make this work.

Fíriel

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse" <tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "number1mn" <anthonyjallan@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hey everybody,
> >
> > I've found a new group (only 2 people so far, including myself) for
> > elvish-beginners. It is amazing how much easier it is to get into a
> > language when you have others around you who are trying just as
hard as
> > you. Nota Bene, the group leader has requested that only beginners
> > join--that is the whole purpose of the group. If people want that
also,
> > theycan join any of the other groups (like this one).
>
> I suppose I'm being pessimistic, but what happens when the beginners
> 'learn' something incorrect and they don't realize it's wrong, so they
> don't bother to "consult higher groups"? They just continue along,
> having others 'learn' the same incorrect thing, without anyone to ever
> tell them that maybe they're mistaken, because no one has a clue
> there's anything wrong?
>
> A possible compromise would be to have non-beginners able to join but
> just read/lurk and post only when necessary, e.g. only if none of the
> beginners realize that there's something wrong. But you may not like
> that scenario, and it might end up turning into "that complicated
> stuff that goes on in other elvish chat groups", i.e. discussion,
> which may counter the stated purpose of the group.
>
> Just a question — I'm wondering how this new group will face that
> problem, if it occurs.
>
> Regards and good luck,
> Matt
>

Hey Matt and everybody else,


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse" <tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:

> I suppose I'm being pessimistic, but what happens when the beginners
> 'learn' something incorrect and they don't realize it's wrong, so
they
> don't bother to "consult higher groups"? They just continue along,
> having others 'learn' the same incorrect thing, without anyone to
ever
> tell them that maybe they're mistaken, because no one has a clue
> there's anything wrong?


It is true, that had been thought of, but the desire for a "non-
technical" group finally won.

> A possible compromise would be to have non-beginners able to join
but
> just read/lurk and post only when necessary, e.g. only if none of
the
> beginners realize that there's something wrong. But you may not like
> that scenario, and it might end up turning into "that complicated
> stuff that goes on in other elvish chat groups", i.e. discussion,
> which may counter the stated purpose of the group.

That is a great idea, but are there people out there who are willing
to do that. If there are, I (being a co-owner) would gladly alow
experts in. If there is anyone willing to fulfill this role, please
mention so when you request to join.

> Just a question — I'm wondering how this new group will face that
> problem, if it occurs.

The other safety we are leaning on is recomending this group to
everyone. If I or Riderofthewest (the other moderator) come across a
doubtful issue, it will be forwarded to here.

If anyone has any other suggestions. We would be happy to take them.
By the way we already have 14 people. Hope we can really get this
thing going

~borondir

Hi!!

I'm sorry to bother, my only contribution to the list is a couple of
questions, from time to time, but since i really have no time or skills
to contribute in any other way, i hope the translation proposed results
interesting to any one.

I'm interested in the mantram finale of the buddhist Heart Sutra, wich
goes: "gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" and means, in
english, "gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, praise to
awakening".

Can it be translated into quenya? How it would be? Can you help me???

Thanksssssssss

"federico.erostarbe" <erostarbe@...> wrote:

   I'm interested in the mantram finale of the buddhist Heart Sutra, which goes:
"gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" and means, in English, "gone,
gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, praise to awakening".

   Vanwa, vanwa, vanwa pella, vanwa aqua pella, a laita cuivëan(na).

   The last word could either be in the dative (cuivëan) or the allative
(cuivëanna), I'm just not sure which is more appropriate in this instance. Is
"praise" a verb here? If not, then the noun is _laitalë_.

   Arthur


Auta i lómë! Utúlie'n aurë! ~ Battle-cry of the Noldor at the Dagor Nirnaeth
Arnediad
   Aurë entuluva! ~ Battle-cry of Húrin at the Dagor Nirnaeth Arnediad

Utúlie'n Estel! — Hope hath come!


---------------------------------
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FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 2007-09-19 federico.erostarbe wrote:
> I'm interested in the mantram finale of the buddhist Heart Sutra,
> wich
> goes: "gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" and means, in
> english, "gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, praise to
> awakening".

Certainly.  I've had it im my Tolkien-related .sig for
years, as David Salo translated it after seeing it in
Sanskrit on a .sig I had then.

Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya!

Arthur Boccaccio skrev:
  >   Vanwa, vanwa, vanwa pella, vanwa aqua pella, a laita
cuivëan(na).

Hardly, since Wisdom which is Gone Beyond is hardly
lost or perished.  Rather the opposite!

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_of_Wisdom>

Benct aka Melroch aka Ngawang Dyinba

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

"I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
is altogether on my side"                   -- Fangorn

well it would help if those translating into English were more specific about
what is gone or why. *grin* I don't know sutras from sofas, so I translated it
from what was given.

   Arthur

Benct Philip Jonsson <melroch@...> wrote:
           On 2007-09-19 federico.erostarbe wrote:
> I'm interested in the mantram finale of the buddhist Heart Sutra,
> wich
> goes: "gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" and means, in
> english, "gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, praise to
> awakening".

Certainly. I've had it im my Tolkien-related .sig for
years, as David Salo translated it after seeing it in
Sanskrit on a .sig I had then.

Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya!

Arthur Boccaccio skrev:
> Vanwa, vanwa, vanwa pella, vanwa aqua pella, a laita
cuivëan(na).

Hardly, since Wisdom which is Gone Beyond is hardly
lost or perished. Rather the opposite!

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_of_Wisdom>

Benct aka Melroch aka Ngawang Dyinba

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
__ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
\ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
/ / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
/ /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
/_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

"I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
is altogether on my side" -- Fangorn





Auta i lómë! Utúlie'n aurë! ~ Battle-cry of the Noldor at the Dagor Nirnaeth
Arnediad
   Aurë entuluva! ~ Battle-cry of Húrin at the Dagor Nirnaeth Arnediad

Utúlie'n Estel! — Hope hath come!


---------------------------------
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FareChase.

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Funny... this sutra in Quenya was the signature of a member of the old
Tolklang list, I think it was Melroch who is still a member of this list
here

It went like 'lenda lenda pellalenda pellatelalenda cuivie aiya'... but
it was years ago, and neo-Quenya was not as mature as it is now

federico.erostarbe wrote:
> Hi!!
>
> I'm sorry to bother, my only contribution to the list is a couple of
> questions, from time to time, but since i really have no time or skills
> to contribute in any other way, i hope the translation proposed results
> interesting to any one.
>
> I'm interested in the mantram finale of the buddhist Heart Sutra, wich
> goes: "gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" and means, in
> english, "gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, praise to
> awakening".
>
> Can it be translated into quenya? How it would be? Can you help me???
>
> Thanksssssssss
>
>
>

Thanks for the answer!!!!

The first part is excellent!!!, but the thing is,  i've being
researching since making the post and the final part, "praise to
awakening" it's wrong. Bodhi commonly translates as enlightening, but in
this case, as goes "gone, gone, etc", it would be -enlightened- and
Svaha is a congratulations, it translates as "Aleluya" or "Hurray";
according to Wikipedia: "In Hinduism
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism>  and Buddhism
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism> , svaha (chi.
薩婆訶 sa po he) is an interjection, approximately "hail!" in
mantras <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra>  indicating the end of the
mantra."

So, in the end, it would be "enlightened, hail (or horray or wathever)"


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Boccaccio <elhanan_austin@...>
wrote:
>
> "federico.erostarbe" erostarbe@... wrote:
>
> I'm interested in the mantram finale of the buddhist Heart Sutra,
which goes: "gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" and means,
in English, "gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, praise to
awakening".
>
> Vanwa, vanwa, vanwa pella, vanwa aqua pella, a laita cuivëan(na).
>
> The last word could either be in the dative (cuivëan) or the
allative (cuivëanna), I'm just not sure which is more appropriate in
this instance. Is "praise" a verb here? If not, then the noun is
_laitalë_.
>
> Arthur
>
>
> Auta i lómë! Utúlie'n aurë! ~ Battle-cry of the Noldor at
the Dagor Nirnaeth Arnediad
> Aurë entuluva! ~ Battle-cry of Húrin at the Dagor Nirnaeth
Arnediad
>
> Utúlie'n Estel! — Hope hath come!
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
Yahoo! FareChase.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Really thanks!

Arthur, sorry for non being clear about this termns in budhism, where
nothing is lost, so there's no sense of regret or sorrow, and so on, but
reeeeally thanks anyway. And sorry again.

Thanks also to Benct, for what you said i think the translation shut be
excelent. By the way, do you have any more buddhist, religious texts on
quenya???


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Boccaccio <elhanan_austin@...>
wrote:
>
> well it would help if those translating into English were more
specific about what is gone or why. *grin* I don't know sutras from
sofas, so I translated it from what was given.
>
> Arthur
>
> Benct Philip Jonsson melroch@... wrote:
> On 2007-09-19 federico.erostarbe wrote:
> > I'm interested in the mantram finale of the buddhist Heart Sutra,
> > wich
> > goes: "gate gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha" and means, in
> > english, "gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond, praise to
> > awakening".
>
> Certainly. I've had it im my Tolkien-related .sig for
> years, as David Salo translated it after seeing it in
> Sanskrit on a .sig I had then.
>
> Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya!
>
> Arthur Boccaccio skrev:
> > Vanwa, vanwa, vanwa pella, vanwa aqua pella, a laita
> cuivëan(na).
>
> Hardly, since Wisdom which is Gone Beyond is hardly
> lost or perished. Rather the opposite!
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_of_Wisdom>
>
> Benct aka Melroch aka Ngawang Dyinba
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
> A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
> __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
> \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
> / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
> / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
> /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
> Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
> ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
> || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
>
> "I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
> is altogether on my side" -- Fangorn
>
>
>
>
>
> Auta i lómë! Utúlie'n aurë! ~ Battle-cry of the Noldor at
the Dagor Nirnaeth Arnediad
> Aurë entuluva! ~ Battle-cry of Húrin at the Dagor Nirnaeth
Arnediad
>
> Utúlie'n Estel! — Hope hath come!
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
Yahoo! FareChase.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "number1mn" <anthonyjallan@...> wrote:
>
> Nota Bene, the group leader has requested that only beginners
> join--that is the whole purpose of the group.

Out of curiosity: I suppose that the discussions in a declaredly "non-
technical" group will be based on some secondary work(s) or online
course(s) etc. (I may be mistaken, however).
Would you mind specifying the resources you are drawing on (apart from
Tolkien's published writings), and besides, which Elvish language(s)
you are actually studying in this group?

Regards,
Erna

Hey,

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:

> Out of curiosity: I suppose that the discussions in a declaredly "non-
> technical" group will be based on some secondary work(s) or online
> course(s) etc. (I may be mistaken, however).
> Would you mind specifying the resources you are drawing on (apart
from
> Tolkien's published writings

Really, dicussion will be on whatever the members want to talk about.
True, a lot of the discussion will be based on Neo-quenya and Neo-
sindarin courses, but I also forsee people wanting to learn the "long"
way--ie study straight from the primary sources.

I began studying like that and found that it was really overwelming. I
found that what I really needed was someone to compare notes with. My
first course of action was to join a chat group, but all the ones I
checked out were a little two deep for me as a beginner--and it also
seemed a little out of place to be asking such simpe questions as I had.
I am sure that there are many other people out there in the same boat.

Concretely, I know that some people in the group are using Thorsten
Renk's Sindarin course. Also Helge Fauskanger's Quenya course and D.
Salo's "Gateway to Sindarin."

Again, I really can't truthfully answer that question. I don't know
what other people are using; I don't know what kinds of questions they
will have.

> and besides, which Elvish language(s)
> you are actually studying in this group?

I used elvish as a general term for all of Tolkien's languages. The
table is open for discusion on any of his languages.

~borondir

Borondir wrote:

<<...I began studying like that [from primary sources] and found that it was
really overwelming. I found that what I really needed was someone to compare
notes with. My first course of action was to join a chat group, but all the ones
I checked out were a little two deep for me as a beginner--and it also seemed a
little out of place to be asking such simple questions as I had.  I am sure that
there are many other people out there in the same boat. >>

Mae govannen.

De-lurking here with some suggestions to address this issue in particular...

I am also a beginning student (of Quenya), and find that although the elfling
list and others contain much valuable information, much of the discussion is so
far over my head that I don't understand it.  (I am an attorney, not a liguist,
and I find that I am very often looking up the meaning of the English
explanations given so that I can understand what's being said!)  But that is the
beauty of the list format--one is able to choose that which is important, and
leave the rest behind.  While I fully understand the frustration of having a
simple question and not having a place in which to pose it (or a place in which
one feels comfortable enough to pose it), I also understand the danger of
misinformation, of having the question answered incorrectly, especially if it's
a foundational question.  An incorrect answer to such a question can skew one's
understanding of the language in such a way that may take many months to
correct.

Perhaps two new lists might be helpful:  (1) a beginner's list as has been
posed, as a place for beginning learners to feel comfortable with others who are
in the same "place" as they, to talk amongst ourselves about our excitement for
the learning process, among other things, and where the frustrations of trying
to learn these languages might be discussed freely; and also (2) a beginner's
list with one or two dedicated mentors who are knowledgeable enough to answer
the questions being posed without sending beginning learners down an improper
path.

Just some thoughts, prior to morning coffee....

~~luaithrenn



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At the risk of opening up a new can of worms; I have a question that may or may
not be simple.

How many attested words are there in the Queyna and Sindarin lexicons?

If one were to make a dictionary of Quenya or Sindarin vocabulary, while not
considering neo-Elvish words coined by folks other than Professor Tolkien
himself, about how many words are there?

After studying these things for a bit, I have my own idea, but I'd like to see
what the Elders of the Village think.

Also, is there any publication that describes how to derive vocabulary from the
available sources?  A sort of Tolkien dictionary primer?  Would Vinyar Tengwar
or Parma Eldalamberon be the place to start?



Thanks!



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Yiu wrote:
> At the risk of opening up a new can of worms; I have a question that may or
may not be simple.
>
> How many attested words are there in the Queyna and Sindarin lexicons?
>
There are lexicons out there, see for yourself :)

> If one were to make a dictionary of Quenya or Sindarin vocabulary, while not
considering neo-Elvish words coined by folks other than Professor Tolkien
himself, about how many words are there?
>
Lexicons (at least the most well known) contain no neo-Elvish words
(of course they contain some 'updated' early Noldorin and Qenya words,
but I don't consider it neo-Elvish)
> Also, is there any publication that describes how to derive vocabulary from
the available sources?  A sort of Tolkien dictionary primer?  Would Vinyar
Tengwar or Parma Eldalamberon be the place to start?
>
No, but the whole bulk of Elvish scholarship will help you understand
how Elvish etymology works. Thorsten Renk's page describes the procedure
of how to derive original verbs from roots:
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/rogue.html

Yiu wrote:
> How many attested words are there in the Queyna and Sindarin
> lexicons?
> If one were to make a dictionary of Quenya or Sindarin vocabulary,
> while not considering neo-Elvish words coined by folks other than
> Professor Tolkien himself, about how many words are there?

For Sindarin + Noldorin in Hisweloke's Sindarin dictionary project,
as of lexicon version 0.994992f (edition 1.8-Beta5):

2641 entries (1816 unique entries).
2612 word forms (260 deduced, 239 normalized, 7 coined) in unique
entries.

Removing some the bias introduced by (obviously unattested) coined and
normalized entries, but also the cross-references, I'd say this should
give around 1800 headwords.
... And around 2300 different word forms (the latter including
inflected forms e.g. plurals, past tenses etc. as well as variant
forms e.g. where sindarin and noldorin differ, etc.

In that rough estimation, I have keept the deduced forms (as
indirectly attested in compounds etc.).

I would also note that this estimation does not take into account the
very recent PE:17 (which would introduce a large bunch of new words).

It also depends on what you really want to count and how you collect
and gather some entries together. The choices made by one
lexicographer can be pretty significant ;) -- e.g. whether or not we
should count Noldorin-only forms (the above estimation does), whether
or not some "variants" should be counted separately (nearly-synonyms
etc.).

So it's a *very* rough estimation, yeah.

> If one were to make a dictionary (...)

Or rather participate to an existing project and help saying both what
it should be *and* what it shouldn't.

Cheers,

Didier

Lakis Lalakis wrote:
> (...) the whole bulk of Elvish scholarship will help you understand
> how Elvish etymology works. Thorsten Renk's page describes the
> procedure of how to derive original verbs from roots:
> http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/rogue.html

Just out of curiosity, looking at the document you are pointing above:

"Note here the development of some seemingly irregular plurals: From
OS: _makla_ (sword), we find an intermediate _meiklai_. Loss of final
vowels results in _meikl_, which is hard to pronounce, therefore in
Sindarin an o is inserted. A final mutation then yields the plural S:
_meigol_. This is most relevant for CE noun formation endings starting
with -l or -r like CE: -la."

As I don't see any asterisk here in front of these words, are
_meiklai_, _meikl_ and S. _meigol_ attested somewhere? If so I have
missed them (this is among the fair possibilitie!) -- I'll be eager to
know their exact sources (i.e. where do we "find" them).

Whether they are attested or not, I'd say that this interesting
document lacks a bit of referencing (i.e. citing book pages, if you
prefer). The "whole bulk of Elvish scholarship" ought to cite, as far
as possible, _exact_ sources (and eventually mark deduced forms, when
relevant). Nothing, I am sure, its author can't fix.

Cheers,

Didier.

Excellent!  Precisely the sort of reply I was hoping for; particularly from you
since your Sindarin dictionary seems so well-done.   Anyone presuming to make up
their own dictionary would be foolish to ignore the amount of work you've done.

Given the myriad choices one has to make when assembling such a lexicon, Dragon
Flame, and the dictionary project itself are both quite impressive.

I feel as if each word gleaned from the notes of JRRT are like lost treasure;
each one a diamond in an already-gleaming and steadily growing display.

Thank you for making the work of the dictionary project freely available.

hisweloke <didier.willis@...> wrote:                               Yiu
wrote:
  > How many attested words are there in the Queyna and Sindarin
  > lexicons?
  > If one were to make a dictionary of Quenya or Sindarin vocabulary,
  > while not considering neo-Elvish words coined by folks other than
  > Professor Tolkien himself, about how many words are there?

  For Sindarin + Noldorin in Hisweloke's Sindarin dictionary project,
  as of lexicon version 0.994992f (edition 1.8-Beta5):

  2641 entries (1816 unique entries).
  2612 word forms (260 deduced, 239 normalized, 7 coined) in unique
  entries.

  Removing some the bias introduced by (obviously unattested) coined and
  normalized entries, but also the cross-references, I'd say this should
  give around 1800 headwords.
  ... And around 2300 different word forms (the latter including
  inflected forms e.g. plurals, past tenses etc. as well as variant
  forms e.g. where sindarin and noldorin differ, etc.

  In that rough estimation, I have keept the deduced forms (as
  indirectly attested in compounds etc.).

  I would also note that this estimation does not take into account the
  very recent PE:17 (which would introduce a large bunch of new words).

  It also depends on what you really want to count and how you collect
  and gather some entries together. The choices made by one
  lexicographer can be pretty significant ;) -- e.g. whether or not we
  should count Noldorin-only forms (the above estimation does), whether
  or not some "variants" should be counted separately (nearly-synonyms
  etc.).

  So it's a *very* rough estimation, yeah.

  > If one were to make a dictionary (...)

  Or rather participate to an existing project and help saying both what
  it should be *and* what it shouldn't.

  Cheers,

  Didier






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