Hello, I'm new in these things but i rly need to see how is number '
13 ' looks in elvish world ;] i understood that there's 2 main
languages and if someone can show me how does '13' looks in them i'll
be very very happy :) Thanks

> Hello, I'm new in these things but i rly need to see how is number '
> 13 ' looks in elvish world ;] i understood that there's 2 main
> languages and if someone can show me how does '13' looks in them i'll
> be very very happy :) Thanks

Maybe take a look at

The Eldarin Numerals

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/numerals.html

(a bit more than you're asking for, but it contains most of what is
published about numbers in Tolkien's works.

* Thorsten

For Quenya, you can check my Utilities section here:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xelag/quenya.html
I made a program a few years ago for quenya numerals, hope it helps.


On Thu, 03 May 2007 17:27:09 -0000, you wrote:

>Hello, I'm new in these things but i rly need to see how is number '
>13 ' looks in elvish world ;] i understood that there's 2 main
>languages and if someone can show me how does '13' looks in them i'll
>be very very happy :) Thanks

--
Alex Grigny de Castro
mailto:xelag@...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xelag/

But you can write "thirteen" in english, but with tengwar. If you let us
know what it's for it might help... :)

electronically yours, jesper - nelde-nelkainen
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se

Order your own copy of the Machinepop/Imiafan
split-EP at www.electronic-obsession.se/label.asp

"Varför har du så många pianon?" (Nora Persson, 9 år)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [elfling] elvish number 13


>
>> Hello, I'm new in these things but i rly need to see how is number '
>> 13 ' looks in elvish world ;] i understood that there's 2 main
>> languages and if someone can show me how does '13' looks in them i'll
>> be very very happy :) Thanks
>
> Maybe take a look at
>
> The Eldarin Numerals
>
> http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/numerals.html
>
> (a bit more than you're asking for, but it contains most of what is
> published about numbers in Tolkien's works.
>
> * Thorsten
>
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I am trying to translate a phrase something like "Alas! I am afraid
that all this babble has curdled my mind" into Goldogrin or Early
Noldorin, preferably keeping words and grammatical devices to as close
a point in external chronology as possible.

For words, I have found _ai_ "a cry of pain or woe" [PE13:158] though
contradicting _ai_ "oh! of surprise, admiration, awe" in GL, _naich_
"pain" from ENF6 [PE13:150], _naigros_ "anguish" (ibid.), _narw_
"pain" (ENF13, ibid.), _im_ "I (emphatic)" from P. Wynne's helpful Gn.
pronoun page, _pathren_ "fearful" from ENF8 [PE13:152], _bal-_ a bad
prefix (ENF4, PE13:138), _glabros_ "babble, chatter, babel, din of
voices" (PE13:162), _egriol_ "excessive" (GL slip 8, PE13:113), _cur-_
"to turn sour (tr. + intr.) (PE13:112), _cirtha_ "to turn sour (tr.)"
(ENF13, PE13:140), _nuin_ "mind, thought" (ENF6, PE13:151), _sitha_
"this" (PE11:68) from PHW's Gn. pron. page, and _*nintha_ "my"
reconstructed from the pattern observed with other Gn. possessive
pronouns (see Thorsten's Gn. grammar page).

Now, there are some problems related to trying to keep the vocab and
gram. devices consistent chronologically. For example, there's the
problem with what _ai_ means (see above_, the fact that there are
different verbs for "turn sour" with different pa.t. in different
stages, _nuin_ means "mind, thought" in ENF6 but "sinking down" in
PE13:164, etc. etc.

So, since I don't have the GL, I'd prefer to keep the consistency with
a certain portion of what is found in PE13 - preferably, the ENF
slips, rather than the GL slips or the Nold. dictionary. This will
have me not use _ai_ but rather something with _naich_ or _narw_,
_bal-_ rather than something like _egriol_ (though they're not
synonymous) with _odog_ "much, abundant" (ENF8, PE13:151), _cirtha_
rather than _cur-_, etc. etc.

Unfortunately, _glabros_ is from the Nold. dict. ...  perhaps
something with _peth_ "word" and _bal-_ might work instead, like
_*belfith ydig_ or _*belfith edyg_ (from _bal- + pith_ with nasal
mutation and i-affection) because something like _*ballabros_ (_bal- +
glabros_) would incorporate vocabulary from later stages.

I don't know what the pa.t. of _cirtha_ would be. If it were weak,
perhaps it would be _*cirthathir_ following _glathrathir_ (PE13:129),
the 3rd.pl. pa.t. of _glathra_ "to polish"? However, the weak forms in
the ENFs seem to incorporate _*-aint_ with i-affection rather than
_-ith_, so perhaps _*cirthaint_? Though there is _*-aint_ on intr.
_curenni_ (PE13:141) and _*-aist_ on tr. _crimtha_ (ibid.), so perhaps
_*crithaist_? _agyraint_ (ibid.) prefixes a-, though that's still for
an intr. verb and _cirtha_ is transitive. _Gwestaint_ (PE13:146) is
from _gwaist_ "is aware, recognizes", which seems to me to be
intransitive — perhaps the ENFs have weak pa.t. -aint for intr. and
-aist for tr. verbs? If anyone can see evidence for or against this, I
would be pleased to know. Either that, or -aint/-aist are different
forms for different points in Tolkien's language aesthetic.

_Mebaint_ (PE13:149) "*ravished" seems to be transitive, but other
forms like _meriaint_ (PE13:150) "*dwelt" and _cyrenaint / agyrenaint
are intransitive, suggesting that -aist was from a different point of
time, and that -aint can be used for both intr. and tr. verbs.

There are articles for past tense forms in the GL and in the Etym.
Noldorin, but I am interested in the forms shown in the ENF sheets. I
see two weak suffixes (though one is only used once), nasal infixion
with i-affection, a-infixion, and vowel strengthening (with older _ní_
(PE13:151), though a more modern form _nyvaint_ existed (ibid.)).
There may be more examples but I'm unable to recognize them, as I'm
still learning the changes in phonology. For example, I don't
understand how forms like _heilf, hailf_ (PE13:148) are formed.

I do not know what a strong form would be — if the -i- in _cirtha_ is
from -û- or -u- as I suspect, perhaps the -tha would be lost and
either a-infixion or vowel strengthening would occur, producing
something with _*caur-_ or _*cýr-_ (cp. pa.t. _cauri-_ from GL or
_curthi, cýr-_ of _cur-_ (PE13:112). But I see more nasal infixion
(with i-affection) and suffixing -aint (i-affection also) than vowel
strengthening in the ENFs - if it _is_ there more than in just _ní_,
could someone point it out to me?

A-infixion is in some forms like _haist_ (PE13:147) and _gaist_
(PE13:144), though the former has an alternate form _histaint_
(ibid.). Indeed, verbs in the ENFs sometimes show more than one pa.t.
(sometimes one strong and one weak, though that's not always the
case). In any case, _segenni_ (PE13:153) might suggest that a pl. form
of _*cirthaint_ (if it was conjugated as a weak past tense, and that
were the form) would be _*cirthenni_. However, if _cirtha_ was not
conjugated with -aint (from -ant and i-affection, as the entry for
_mebaint_ shows), I'm not sure what the forms would be. A-infixion
might cause _*cauri-_, which I don't know how to pluralize, and vowel
strengthening might produce _*cýr_, though I don't know how to
pluralize that either.

Anyway, all this might mix together to form something like _I•naich!
Im pathren *belfith edyg sitha *cirthenni nuin *nintha!_ But then even
I don't know whether the word order might be SPO, OPS, or OSP. SPO
might come naturally to me as an English speaker, but whether that is
preferable for Goldogrin or Early Noldorin, I can't say.

Can anyone help with various parts of this construction, particularly
the word order and the past tense of _cirtha_? I want it to be as
consistent with forms found in ENF as possible. And is there a word
for "that" (perhaps corresponding with EQ _ne_?) that I need to
include, or is "I [am] afraid [that] these abundant bad-words ...".
Speaking of that, do I need _na_ "is" as _Im na pathren"? And since
_*belfith edyg_ is plural, is there a plural equivalent with _sitha_?
Perhaps _*sithai_ from i-affection, or _*sithain_ with a suffix would
work.

Help would be much appreciated.

And if you must know, all this came about because initially I wanted
to find out how to say "I am cheese", but soon decided that a more
complex phrase would be better. :P

Matthew Dinse

Well, it's been years... let me send you now a poem I wrote last
year. The original text is the Hungarian version (my mother tongue), the English
version is rather literal translation than poetical. Thanks to Atwe for the help
he provided with the Quenya translation. Every comment is welcome.
 
Earo falassessenEldawende, Earo falassessenma larta, ai ma larta?I alta cirya,
Alqua ValinórevaNurrula wingessen, nenissen wíla. Eldawende, Earo
hrestassenMallo, ai mallo rúca?Néca antorya, vaccorya vintalaSúre hlapu ter
malwa hroarya. Eldawende, Earo litsessenManna céna, manna céna?Menel ná háya,
arda ná altaMasse melindonya, callo verya?Eldawende, Earo nóresseManan, ai mana
naina?Rávea Earo morna-luinesse Lá séya isca-carne ára. Eldawende, Earo
nenissenManan, ai, túla ninna?Autan háya, ardo endanna,Earo ambasse inye loruva.
 
On the shores of Belegaer
 
Elvenmaid, on the shores of Belegaer,What, oh what is she waiting?The Big Ship,
the Swan of Valinor
Flies away on water and rumbling waves.
 
Elvenmaid, on the beach of Belegaer,
What, oh what does she fear?
Her face is pale, and clothes are pasty
Wind blows through her vague body.
 
Elvenmaid, on the sand of Belegaer,
What, oh what is she watching?
The horizon is far, the world is huge,
Where is my sweetheart, the valiant hero?
 
Elvenmaid, on the land of Belegaer,
Why, oh why is she crying?
On the bluish-black stormy sea
The first blush of down is not approaching.
 
Elvenmaid, in the water of Belegaer,
Why, oh why are you coming to me?
I’ll swim away to the heart of the world,
And I’ll sleep on the bosom of the sea.
 
Belegaer partjain
 
Tündeleány, Belegaer partjain,Mire vár, vajon mire vár? A Nagy hajó, a Valinori
hattyú,Zúgó habokon, vizeken tovaszáll. Tündeleány, Belegaer fövenyén,Mitõl fél,
vajon mitõl fél?Arca sápadt, ruhája áttetszõ,Halovány testén átsüvít a szél.
 
Tündeleány, Belegaer homokján,
Merre néz, vajon merre néz?
Messzi a horizont, tág a határ,
Hol járhat kedvesem, a hõs vitéz?
 
Tündeleány, Belegaer vidékén,
Miért sír, vajon miért sír?
Viharos tenger éj-komor kékjén
Nem látszik többé a hajnali pír.
 
Tündeleány, Belegaer vizében,Miért, ó miért jössz felém?
Elúszok messze, a világ szívéhez,
Ott alszom majd a tenger kebelén.
 

_________________________________________
Foto.hu - Egyedi naptárak csak 3990 Ft-ért! Ingyenes házhozszállítással! KLIKK
IDE!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Currently reading John Rateliff's excellent work on The History of the
Hobbit (vol 1).

I am trying to work out using just the sources where the original name
for the dragon Smaug comes from in Tolkien's linguistic world.

In the Gnomish lexicon (PE 11) = there is mention of:

_tan_ = firewood

_tag_ = a flame, flash

_tanfa_ = the lowest of all airs - the hot air of deep places

(and in Welsh the word _tan_ means fire as well)

So one could conjecture (with much trepidation) that the second part
of the name could have something to do with fire - makes sense for a
dragon.

The _pryf_has stumped me - and I am wondering if anyone out there
could help with this.  What I would like (and as a great detective
once said "it is a capital mistake to fit the facts to the solution")
is something iike chief flamer - but I can not find a root in the
Etymologies or older texts that have this combinaton of words (or any
mutated froms like _bryf_ _brif_ _frif_ or _mrif_.

Words with _bri_ in the Gnomish lexicon (Bridol, briglam brigli) -
tend to mean a sense of changing, variation (PE 11 page 28) - so
perhaps fire changer?

Or is it from these languages at all - since the original name for
Gandalf the Wizard (Bladorthin) -comes from a Gnomish/Noldorin source
- Grey country traveler) I am assuming (that word) that JRR would have
taken the same source for Pryftan.

Old Norse has a word pryfthi (Zoega - page 323) meaning ornament -
which is something a dragon would be sitting on - but that seems a bit
too much of a stretch to me!

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks, Andy

> Words with _bri_ in the Gnomish lexicon (Bridol, briglam brigli) -
> tend to mean a sense of changing, variation (PE 11 page 28) - so
> perhaps fire changer?

Interesting, but as you said yourself a bit far-fetched maybe? But "fire
changer" gets me thinking of Lucifer, the jewish-christian fallen angel.
AFAIK Lucifer means "bringer of light" and there the "bringer" might mean
not just someone who carries something with him but also someone who changes
the world around him. I hope this came through correct in english?! So, is
"fire bringer" in that sense of the words fitting? "The bringer of fire"
(and destruction). I'm just thinking out loud here...

> Old Norse has a word pryfthi (Zoega - page 323) meaning ornament -
> which is something a dragon would be sitting on - but that seems a bit
> too much of a stretch to me!

And since I cannot stop myself from commenting on the nordic languages.
Ornament is "prydnad" in one meaning in modern swedish. Obviously the same
word... but nothing I'd normally associate with dragons though. ;)

electronically yours, jesper
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se

Order your own copy of the Machinepop/Imiafan
split-EP at www.electronic-obsession.se/label.asp

"Varför har du så många pianon?" (Nora Persson, 9 år)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Higgins" <asthiggins@...> wrote:
> The _pryf_has stumped me - and I am wondering if anyone out there
> could help with this.  What I would like (and as a great detective
> once said "it is a capital mistake to fit the facts to the solution")
> is something iike chief flamer - but I can not find a root in the
> Etymologies or older texts that have this combinaton of words (or any
> mutated froms like _bryf_ _brif_ _frif_ or _mrif_.

> Old Norse has a word pryfthi (Zoega - page 323) meaning ornament -
> which is something a dragon would be sitting on - but that seems a bit
> too much of a stretch to me!

An online Welsh dictionary gives _pryf_ 'insect' or 'worm, vermin'. ;-)

The terms for 'dragon' in various European languages mean either
'worm' or 'serpent' including the term 'dragon' itself (German
_Lindwurm_ is even a combination of both).
I don't know, however, whether Welsh _pryf_ may be used this way.

RR.

Roman Rausch scripsit:

> I don't know, however, whether Welsh _pryf_ may be used this way.

Google knows (type "pryf dragon")... :-)

http://www.forum.arbre-celtique.com/viewtopic.php?t=2983&start=120&sid=ee5f16873\
fb076aa2c4b5a588dea03e8
http://www.alicehenderson.com/2006_03_01_archive.html

Lukas

Dear All,


   This is a Neo-Sindarin translation of an
Old English poem known as Cædmon's Hymn found in King Alfred's
translation of Bede's Ecclesiastical History of England. It was born  as result
of a joint work by Ninniach and myself. The Old English
version here is taken from Robert E. Diamond's Old English Grammar and
Reader. Quenya version to follow soon.




*Maeth e-Cheredir,   //   Arnad Menel tiriel,

No egleriannen,   //   ar innas în,

A cardh Aglaradar.  //    Eithel i-luith bain

Tangant e, *Tân,  //    Taur uireb.

Agor e *na vinui,  //    Einior aer,

Arvenel a-thobas  //    na ionnath in-edain.

Ennas abonnant   //   i-Chîr uireb,

*Orthir in-adanath, //     Eru *Iladar

Ennorath ammen,  //    Amar af-firiath.




Nu we sculon herian  //    heofon-rices Weard,

Meotodes meahte   //   and his mod-ge-þanc,

weorc Wuldor-Fæder, //     swa he wundra ge-hwæs,

ece Dryhten, //     or on-stealde.

He ærest scop  //    ielda bearnum

heofon to hrofe,  //    halig Scieppend;

þa middan-geard  //    mann-cynnes Weard,

ece Dryhten,  //    æfter teode,

firum foldan,  //    Frea eall-mihtig.




Now we must praise  //   the Guardian of the heavenly kingdom,

the might of the Creator  //   and His mind's purpose,

the work of the Father of Glory, //    as He for each of the wonders,

the eternal Lord,  //    established before.

He shaped first  //   for the sons of the Earth

heaven as a roof,  //   Holy Creator;

then the Middle-World, //    mankind's Guardian,

the eternal Lord,  //    made afterwards,

solid ground for men,  //   the almighty Lord.



some notes:

*maeth: this was explicitly chosen because of the nice parallel with OE
meaht/miht and the semantic relationship
* orthir: guardian, "high-watcher"

The alliterative metre is not perfect, but with some hiccups it is readable.

Thomas Ferencz

Let us discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk



__________________________________________________
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Hi, Everybody!
 
Well, last time the mailing system mad my writing look funny; therefore I send
it again - this time, the Quenya version only - many thanx to Atwe for the
corrections!
 
Earo falassenEldawende, Earo falassen
ma larta, ai ma larta?
I alta cirya, Valinóreva Alqua
Nurrula wingessen, nenissen wíla.
 
Eldawende, Earo hrestassen
Mallo, ai mallo rúca?
Néca antorya, vintala vaccorya
Súre hlapu ter malwa hroarya.
 
Eldawende, Earo litsessen
Manna céna, manna céna?
Menel ná háya, arda ná alta
Masse melindonya, i callo verya?
 
Eldawende, Earo nóresse
Manan, ai mana naina?
Rávea Ear mi luine-morna
Isca-carne ára ná vanwa.
 
Eldawende, Earo nenissen
Manan, ai, túla ninna?
Autan háya, ardo endanna,
Earo ambasse inye loruva.
 

_________________________________________
Foto.hu - Egyedi naptárak csak 3990 Ft-ért! Ingyenes házhozszállítással! KLIKK
IDE!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You also need to know whether a man or an elf is speaking/writing since
men use base 10 and elves use base 12.  Thus, base10(13)= base12(11).
Elves also write their numbers from right to left instead of left to
right, although you kind of lucked out with a symmetrical number in base12.

I attached two images of the two Tengwar.  I just used the online
transcriber: http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/ott/start.php?l=en
Men/humans put the dots over the symbols to indicate base-10 numbers.

If you're looking for the WORD "thirteen" then I'm not as sure.  I believe
in Sindarin, men would say "Nelchaer" and elves would say "Minchaer."

In Quenya, just elves would use "nelquë" or "nelequë".

And, as other have said, you could just write the English word "thirteen"
using Tengwar.  That same online transcriber can do that for you.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> You also need to know whether a man or an elf is speaking/writing since
> men use base 10 and elves use base 12.

Can you cite any evidence for the view that Elves would in general use
base 12 and men base 10? Because Tolkien writes

"In spite of their later predominant (...) interest in and use of
six-twelve (as group units) they did not develop a complete duodecimal
nomenclature, though they invented (after the common Eldarin period for
numbers above 12) special names for the multiples of six times six. Of
these, 18 and 24 were also in daily use, as well as the 'gross' 144 and 72
half-gross." (VT47:17)

To highlight the point: Elves according to Tolkien's late ideas on
numerals 'did not develop a complete duodecimal nomenclature'.

> In Quenya, just elves would use "nelquë" or "nelequë".

Why?

First of all, that directly contradicts your above statement that Elves
would use base 12 since _nelque_ is quite transparently in a base 10
system. Second, the actually attested forms for 13 in Quenya are

_nelquea, quainel_ (VT48:21) and the variant _yunquenta_ (VT47:15). While
I know of a form _nelkea_ in Early Qenya, I seem to have missed _?nelque_
- can you give me the reference?

* Thorsten

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
>
> Can you cite any evidence for the view that Elves would in general
use
> base 12 and men base 10?
>

About the duodecimal system, there are very interesting remarks
in "The Ring of Words" (pp. 112-3 & 122). Pointing out that :

1) Bilbo, at his birthday party, announced "I am eleventy-one today".

2) The birthday party is described as 'an engrossing entertainment'
and in The Return of the Shadow (p. 23) we can read "All the 144
special guests expected a pleasant feast [...] Not one of the 144
were disappointed".

3) The Rohirrim divided an éored in 120 riders.

David Giraudeau

I have just recently finished in Middle Welsh the story of Branwen
Uerch Lyr the secod of the four branches of the of the
Mabinogi - at the same time I am reading a really good (I think) new
book called Beowulf and Other Stories - Intro to Old English, Old
Icelandic and Anglo-Norman Lit by Richard North and Joe Allard
(published by Peason Longan).  There is a a great chapter on Old
English's Influence on LOTR which goes through some of the the Anglo-
Saxon origins of Tolkiens development of The Riders of Rohan, The
Golden Hall, Wormtongue, etc - really good.

North and Allard include a section on the Wizard we all love to hate -
  Saruman and gives the origin of his name as coming from the OE
_searu_ meaning "cunning or treacherous - _searuman_ a cunning man -
which rendered in the Mercian form becomes _saruman_ (the OE midlands
dialect Tolkien preferred to use instead of the West Saxon which
would render his name:_searuman_

But in reading Branwen - I came across a welsh word "_sarahet_,
_sarahaet_ (pl_sarhadeu_) which means insult, act of violation,
wrong - as when Branwen is punished for the insults of her brother to
Malowch the Irish king.

The cognate word in Irish is _sarugud_ and it is used in Early Irish
to mean "act of violating" as well as "dishonourng, outrage"

Could the celtic _sara/u_ also have been a potential root for the
name of Saruman - lingistically fortelling the dishonour and
violation that Saraman would cause by being corrupted by the ring?

The Anglo-Saxon "cunning" does not seem to give away as much (one can
be cunning and good I guess) while the celtic root gives away the
show in the name - and perhaps that indicates that Tolkien wanted us
to look beyond the generic OE cognate of the name to find the true
nature of this corrupted Istari in the Celtic form (older form for
this primary world?) of his name.

Words for the thought! Be good to hear of any other examples of this
in the legendarium.

Thanks, Andy

Hi Andrew,

Intersting idea. Forgive me if my response is overly niggling, but here you go
...

> North and Allard gives [sic] the origin of his name as coming from
> the OE _searu_ meaning "cunning or treacherous - _searuman_
> a cunning man - which rendered in the Mercian form becomes
> _saruman_ (the OE midlands dialect Tolkien preferred to use
> instead of the West Saxon which would render his name:_searuman_

This is nothing new. As you may know, Tom Shippey presented the same etymology
in The Road to Middle-earth back in 1982. See p. 112n and especially 153, where
Shippey explains the meaning of the word "searu" (citing Bosworth-Toller as his
source). Of course, while "searu" is most often said just to mean "cunning", it
can also mean "art, skill; artifice, treachery; armour"; and also, there exists
a compound form, searu-þancol, an adjective meaning "cunning of thought, wise",
in which the second element is the same as in Orthanc (with, of course,
Tolkien's double-meaning in Sindarin). There's also an interesting, related
verb, sierwan "to plot, machinate". For these forms, see Henry Sweet's An
Anglo-Saxon Reader in Prose and Verse, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1884: 277, 279.
So the projections of this single word into the fictive characterization of
Saruman is really not quite as simple as you suggest below (when you say it
"does not seem to give away much"); there really is a
  bit more going on, even limiting oneself to the Old Mercian word.

> Could the celtic _sara/u_ also have been a potential root for the
> name of Saruman - lingistically fortelling the dishonour and
> violation that Saraman would cause by being corrupted by the ring?

I would say it's unlikely, though not impossible. (It is an interesting find,
regardless.) Tolkien is on record as having a distaste for most of the Celtic
languages (other than Welsh, directly). To this point, he wrote: "I have no
liking at all for Gaelic from Old Irish downwards, as a language, but it is of
course of great historical and philological interest, and I have at various
times studied it." (Letters, p. 385). Of course, in the same letter, he does
acknowledge the possibility of a(n unconscious) Gaelic cognate form (in the case
of nazg, "ring"), so that opens the door, at least a crack, for your suggestion.
But you would be proposing it in opposition to Tolkien's own statements. In
order to substantiate it, you'd want to look at the textual evolution of the
Saruman character (including any early, alternate forms of his name) to see
whether your suggested etymology might have actually fit right from the
beginning. Otherwise, while interesting, it's basically just
  coincidence -- a "folk etymology" worked into the character from his end, going
backwards.

> The Anglo-Saxon "cunning" does not seem to give away as much (one
> can be cunning and good I guess)

Yes, exactly the caution that Shippey passes along from Bosworth-Toller.

> while the celtic root gives away the
> show in the name - and perhaps that indicates that Tolkien wanted us
> to look beyond the generic OE cognate of the name to find the true
> nature of this corrupted Istari in the Celtic form (older form for
> this primary world?) of his name.

The singular is istar, by the way (istari is the plural; Sindarin s. ithron, pl.
ithryn). :)

> Words for the thought! Be good to hear of any other examples of this
> in the legendarium.

I suspect you'd find many. Good luck! :)

Jason Fisher

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Higgins" <asthiggins@...> wrote:

>Could the celtic _sara/u_ also have been a potential root for the
>name of Saruman - lingistically fortelling the dishonour and
>violation that Saraman would cause by being corrupted by the ring?

No, I don't think so, because:

1. _Saruman_ is a translation of S. _Curunír_ or Q. _Curumo_ (UT:463)
made by men; and I see no such ambiguity in these Elvish names.

2. Saruman was not fallen from the beginning, especially he was not
fallen when he received his name 'Man of Skill'. If he already had
treacherous thoughts by the time of the translation of his name as
'Saruman', those who have called him this way certainly didn't know
about it.

3. There is much semantic leeway here. Saruman became evil, so many
evil epithets in various languages beginning with _sar-_ (or something
similar) would match here.
But not every _searuman_ would potentially violate or outrage
anything, just because there is a similar Welsh word. I can imagine
that _Saruman_ could have likewise been a name of a positive character.


RR.

Well, Roman, yours are all story-internal explanations (perfectly valid, BTW,
but of a very specific and limited scope), but I think Andrew was getting at
this question from a story-external perspective. In such a case, it is, of
course, reasonable to wonder about what all was in the leaf-mould of Tolkien's
mind vis-a-vis Saruman. But see my previous reply for my own thoughts on that.


----- Original Message ----
From: Roman Rausch <aranwe@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:30:18 AM
Subject: [elfling] Re: Saruman - Possible Celtic Origin for his name

--- In elfling@yahoogroups .com, "Andrew Higgins" <asthiggins@ ...> wrote:

>Could the celtic _sara/u_ also have been a potential root for the
>name of Saruman - lingistically fortelling the dishonour and
>violation that Saraman would cause by being corrupted by the ring?

No, I don't think so, because:

1. _Saruman_ is a translation of S. _Curunír_ or Q. _Curumo_ (UT:463)
made by men; and I see no such ambiguity in these Elvish names.

2. Saruman was not fallen from the beginning, especially he was not
fallen when he received his name 'Man of Skill'. If he already had
treacherous thoughts by the time of the translation of his name as
'Saruman', those who have called him this way certainly didn't know
about it.

3. There is much semantic leeway here. Saruman became evil, so many
evil epithets in various languages beginning with _sar-_ (or something
similar) would match here.
But not every _searuman_ would potentially violate or outrage
anything, just because there is a similar Welsh word. I can imagine
that _Saruman_ could have likewise been a name of a positive character.

RR.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Right: Today, May 15th 2007, ten years have passed since I first announced the
earliest version of my Ardalambion website. How time flies!

While I do have some plans for new articles to celebrate the great jubilee, the
one thing I have already uploaded was a small emendation of the text on the
index page. Instead of boldly proclaiming that this is "the most comprehensive
site about Tolkien's invented languages that you are likely to find on the net",
it now says it is "ONE of the most comprehensive sites..." (emphasis added).
Maybe I could have defended the former proud introduction when I first published
Ardalambion, and even for a number of years following the first publication, but
now there are a number of high-quality sites out there. Maybe the efforts of
Thorsten Renk deserve to be especially mentioned, but there are others as well.

It's been an interesting decade. I guess my ten-year-younger self would have
been disappointed to know that by 2007, most of Tolkien's linguistic material
would remain just as unpublished as it was in 1997. Yet there have been a number
of new publications, mostly but not exclusively rather early material, and I
don't deny its general value. I still look forward to the publication of
material that is more directly relevant for the languages in their more
classical or LotR-like incarnations, though.

Wonder what I'll be writing in 2017...

- HKF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, congratulations. Lúme vile, as it would seem. As I believe for many of us
here, your site was a jumping point for me into the deep waters of Tolkienian
languages. Thanks for all the efforts and help given.

Thomas Ferencz
Let us discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: Helge K. Fauskanger <helge.fauskanger@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:59:35 PM
Subject: [elfling] Jubilee

Right: Today, May 15th 2007, ten years have passed since I first announced the
earliest version of my Ardalambion website. How time flies!

While I do have some plans for new articles to celebrate the great jubilee, the
one thing I have already uploaded was a small emendation of the text on the
index page. Instead of boldly proclaiming that this is "the most comprehensive
site about Tolkien's invented languages that you are likely to find on the net",
it now says it is "ONE of the most comprehensive sites..." (emphasis added).
Maybe I could have defended the former proud introduction when I first published
Ardalambion, and even for a number of years following the first publication, but
now there are a number of high-quality sites out there. Maybe the efforts of
Thorsten Renk deserve to be especially mentioned, but there are others as well.

It's been an interesting decade. I guess my ten-year-younger self would have
been disappointed to know that by 2007, most of Tolkien's linguistic material
would remain just as unpublished as it was in 1997. Yet there have been a number
of new publications, mostly but not exclusively rather early material, and I
don't deny its general value. I still look forward to the publication of
material that is more directly relevant for the languages in their more
classical or LotR-like incarnations, though.

Wonder what I'll be writing in 2017...

- HKF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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> Right: Today, May 15th 2007, ten years have passed since I first
> announced the earliest version of my Ardalambion website. How time flies!

Well - congratulations!

I think it is fair to say that for most people interested in Elvish these
days Ardalambion was *the* introduction to Tolkien's languages (it
certainly was for me), and the Quettaparma is *the* reference for Quenya
vocabulary. So - thank you for all the work :-)

* Thorsten

Hello all, I am pleased to be a new member of this discussion group.  I have
found that I have quite an interest in learning the art languages of
Tolkien, and have been entertained by your mailings.  Although I am about to
ask for some help with a translation, I would like to assure the dedicated
members that I have no intention of making a "One-time, off-the-cuff
request", and have been studying various secondary works by Fauskanger and
Renk. Thanks in advance, your help is most appreciated!

My goal is to come up with a term meaning "Infinite paths" in Sindarin as
would be spoken in the third age.  In the sense that there are countless
ways one may arrive at a state of being.  For instance, if someone asked
"How does one obtain knowledge?"', one might reply "[there are] unlimited
ways!"

I have found many choices in translating "path" or "way" but am unsure about
the best one.  This seems to me the best translation into 3rd age Sindarin:
_raith arnediad_

Questions:
Did I choose the right "path"? (pun)  I am using a plural form.

Should _arnediad_ be I-affected to agree with the subject?

If writing this using tengwar, should I use oàe (final-r) for the "R" in
_arnediad_ since a vowel does not follow, or should that be reserved for the
end of words?

Thanks for all of your comments

  - Isaac Hanson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Twas a great period for me... I was discovering Internet, Tolkien and
other things... Ardalambion had been a significant part of it

Thanks Helge

Thorsten Renk wrote:
>
>
>
> > Right: Today, May 15th 2007, ten years have passed since I first
> > announced the earliest version of my Ardalambion website. How time
> flies!
>
> Well - congratulations!
>
> I think it is fair to say that for most people interested in Elvish these
> days Ardalambion was *the* introduction to Tolkien's languages (it
> certainly was for me), and the Quettaparma is *the* reference for Quenya
> vocabulary. So - thank you for all the work :-)
>
> * Thorsten
>
>

Isaac W Hanson wrote:
> Should _arnediad_ be I-affected to agree with the subject?
>
According to Helge's wordlist, yes, it should become 'arnediaid'.
However I don't know any official source to back it up
> If writing this using tengwar, should I use oàe (final-r) for the "R" in
> _arnediad_ since a vowel does not follow, or should that be reserved for the
> end of words?
>
This story about Ore and Romen is only about Q. In Sindarin only one R
is used, and it's written with Romen

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Lakis Lalakis <avalon@...> wrote:
>
> This story about Ore and Romen is only about Q. In Sindarin only one
R
> is used, and it's written with Romen

In view of the transliteration of the Sindarin 'King's Letter (III)',
SD:131, where both órë and rómen occur, though not in quite consistent
use, I would rather disagree.

Regards,
Erna

Now I am slightly more confused.

I was under the impression that the i-affected version was 'ernediaid',
where the 'a' in the last syllable becomes 'ai', but all others become 'e'.
Just as `Barad` becomes 'Beraid' (Silmarillion appendix)
  (also 'aran'-> 'erain').  Is 'arnediad' an exception?
PARVIPHITH EDHELLENPARVIPHITH EDHELLENI found the entry in the wordlist of
which you spoke, and see an alternate form "aroneded pl. erenedid - (archaic
eronodid)" which seems to follow this rule, while just as you indicated
arnediad does not.
I am finding alternate versions 'arnoediad' from Silmarillion.  And yet
another form arneidiad from the wordlist.
But what are the differences between all of these?

Concerning Ore, I noticed Mr. Renk advocates its use in Sindarin in "pedin
edhellen" at the end of words.

Oh, and what do you think of using 'raith' for "paths"?  Is there a better
word for epressing "[endless] ways"?

Thanks for helping a newbie!  Your comments are most helpful

  - Isaac




On 5/17/07, Lakis Lalakis <avalon@...> wrote:
>
>   Isaac W Hanson wrote:
> > Should _arnediad_ be I-affected to agree with the subject?
> >
> According to Helge's wordlist, yes, it should become 'arnediaid'.
> However I don't know any official source to back it up
> > If writing this using tengwar, should I use oàe (final-r) for the "R" in
> > _arnediad_ since a vowel does not follow, or should that be reserved for
> the
> > end of words?
> >
> This story about Ore and Romen is only about Q. In Sindarin only one R
> is used, and it's written with Romen
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Congratulations Helge!

Thanks to you I've discovered Elvish languages and now more than 25'000
people per month are visiting my website, wich began with the
translation of your Quenya Course into French. It was downloaded
thousands of times and are now still among the most downloaded files on
my website, aside to your wordlist.

Thank you very much for your work and your kindness.

Evenstar

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes




Helge K. Fauskanger a écrit :
>
> Right: Today, May 15th 2007, ten years have passed since I first
> announced the earliest version of my Ardalambion website. How time flies!
>
> While I do have some plans for new articles to celebrate the great
> jubilee, the one thing I have already uploaded was a small emendation
> of the text on the index page. Instead of boldly proclaiming that this
> is "the most comprehensive site about Tolkien's invented languages
> that you are likely to find on the net", it now says it is "ONE of the
> most comprehensive sites..." (emphasis added). Maybe I could have
> defended the former proud introduction when I first published
> Ardalambion, and even for a number of years following the first
> publication, but now there are a number of high-quality sites out
> there. Maybe the efforts of Thorsten Renk deserve to be especially
> mentioned, but there are others as well.
>
> It's been an interesting decade. I guess my ten-year-younger self
> would have been disappointed to know that by 2007, most of Tolkien's
> linguistic material would remain just as unpublished as it was in
> 1997. Yet there have been a number of new publications, mostly but not
> exclusively rather early material, and I don't deny its general value.
> I still look forward to the publication of material that is more
> directly relevant for the languages in their more classical or
> LotR-like incarnations, though.
>
> Wonder what I'll be writing in 2017...
>
> - HKF
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi!

How can we translate these sentences??

"Ce qui te nourrit peut aussi te détruire"
/What feeds you can also destroy you

/Sa i antatyë matil polë yando ascatë tyë

*****************

"Ne rêve pas ta vie, vis tes rêves."
/Do not dream your life, live your dreams.

/No idea since to dream is impersonal in Quenya...So nobody can "dream
is life"... impossible to translate??

*****************

"On fait du mal à ceux qu'on aime, mais on oublie qu'on aime ceux qui
nous font du mal."
/One hurts those one loves, but one forgets those who hurt us/

Quen mala tien i quen melë, an quen úsana tien i quenen mala

or with the "we" inclusive

Elvë mala tien i melëlvë, an elvë úsana tien i më mala

*******************

Thanks in advance for your help

Evenstar

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

May I try?

"What feeds you can also destroy you"

Ya alta lye pole hate lye.

"Do not dream your life, live your dreams."

Alalyen ola cuilenen, alye *cuia i cuile.

"One hurts those one loves, but one forgets those who hurt us/"

Harnalvet i melilve, mal *etsenilvet i harnar me.


Thomas Ferencz
Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: Evenstar <evenstar62@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 6:53:25 PM
Subject: [elfling] [Q] three sentences

Hi!

How can we translate these sentences??

"Ce qui te nourrit peut aussi te détruire"
/What feeds you can also destroy you

/Sa i antatyë matil polë yando ascatë tyë

*****************

"Ne rêve pas ta vie, vis tes rêves."
/Do not dream your life, live your dreams.

/No idea since to dream is impersonal in Quenya...So nobody can "dream
is life"... impossible to translate??

*****************

"On fait du mal à ceux qu'on aime, mais on oublie qu'on aime ceux qui
nous font du mal."
/One hurts those one loves, but one forgets those who hurt us/

Quen mala tien i quen melë, an quen úsana tien i quenen mala

or with the "we" inclusive

Elvë mala tien i melëlvë, an elvë úsana tien i më mala

*******************

Thanks in advance for your help

Evenstar

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes









      
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