In the QL, we find the name of the chief-cat twice, _Tevildo-meoita_ 'the
Prince of Cats' (PE12:61) 'The Lord of Cats' (PE12:90). _meoi_ 'cat' is
readily found in PE12:61, but the apparent case ending _#-ta_ seems
puzzling, as it cannot readily be linked with any of the case endings
found in e.g. the 'Early Qenya Grammar' (PE:14).

However, a form _Ungwe-Tuita_ 'the Spider of Night' (PE12:80) which was
later changed to _Ungwe Fuiva_ (PE12:103) may allow to identify the
ending. It seems that the ending _-ta_ appended to a form _#tui_ 'night'
is used in the same way as appended to _meoi_ before it was replaced by
_-va_. However, the latter ending is readily found in PE14:47 described as
'general adjectival suffix (...) often practically equivalent to
genitive'. Tentatively using this identification for _-ta_ as well is in
good agreement with the translation of Tevildo's title, thus it would seem
that the ending _-ta_ was indeed the previous incarnation of _-va_ (which
even later was to become the possessive ending of Quenya).

* Thorsten

> thus it would seem  that the ending _-ta_ was indeed the previous
> incarnation of _-va_ (which even later was to become the possessive
> ending of Quenya).

There is clearly a connection with the ending _-ite_, appearing in the
pronominal declension charts given in PE16:113 where it is marked
'Adj.' and seems to be an alternative to _-va_ (_kiryaite_, _kiryava_;
_ondoite_, _ondova_ and so on).

This ending _-ite_ is observed throughout the phases, in the QL also
_-voite_:

_talaite_ 'footed' < _tala_ 'foot' (QL:88)
_aikuvoite_ 'cliffy, rocky' < _aiko_ (u) 'cliff' (QL:29)
_karnevaite_ 'red-skied, amid red skies' (PE16:75)
_nienaite_ 'tearful' (ibid.)
_oilimaite_ 'final, ultimate' (ibid.)
_maite_ 'handy, skilled' < _ma3iti_ (LR:371)
_asea aranaite_ (>> _asea aranion_) 'kingsfoil' (WR:394)
_hlonite, hlonaite_ 'phonetic' (VT48:29, VT39:4)
_ruskuite_ 'foxy' < _rusku-_ 'fox' (VT41:10)

So _-(i)ta_ could be a rare alternative to _-ite_.


RR.

The article has now been expanded with the names from the following
volume VIII 'The War of the Ring' and I have also added additional
commentaries to some of the older entries.
It has become lengthy by now, but is hopefully still navigable.

The link is:
http://sindanoorie.atspace.com/RS&TI&WR.htm
or:
http://sindanorie.lima-city.de/RS&TI&WR.htm
The old link now also redirects to this updated version.

RR.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Roman Rausch" <aranwe@...> wrote:
>
> The article has now been expanded with the names from the following
> volume VIII 'The War of the Ring' and I have also added additional
> commentaries to some of the older entries.
> It has become lengthy by now, but is hopefully still navigable.
>
> The link is:
> http://sindanoorie.atspace.com/RS&TI&WR.htm
> or:
> http://sindanorie.lima-city.de/RS&TI&WR.htm
> The old link now also redirects to this updated version.
>
> RR.
>

Very interesting! I read the part analyzing the words from WR, and one
thing occurred to me: your analysis that _nestad_ might instead of
being from *NES could employ the prefix _ne-_ "from 'insert' in the
sense of 'insert/take medicine'" made me wonder this:

If it can be interpreted as _ne-stad_ rather than _nes-tad_, might it
contain _ne-_ "in, inside" and a word derived from the hypothetical
root *STÁ/THÁ "*help, save" as found in _-star, -stámo_ [XII:391,
385], _-sáro_ (-thârô) [V:188]? Just a thought.

Regards,
Matt Dinse

I am pround to present a new article titled "Agental suffixes and gender
distinction in the Qenya Lexicon"

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/qenya_agental.html

on my site Parma Tyelpelassiva

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/index.html

In this, I investigate the scheme of suffixes used to denote persons in
the QL, which often (but not always) occur pairwise in male and female
versions. I show that the scheme in the QL is nearly as rich and
complicated as the one found in the Etymologies in terms of number of
suffixes, blendings and analoguous formations. However, when looking at
the details, the suffixes used are quite different: The group of suffixes
which dominates the formation of forms in the Etymologies is virtually
absent in the QL, the most common formation of the QL is rarely seen in
the Etymologies.

While studying Tolkien's early Qenya is rewarding in itself, the findings
also have implications for anyone trying to create a larger vocabulary for
Neo-Quenya compositions by merging in material from the QL. Since the
underlying scheme of word derivation is not the same, blindly taking over
Qenya words, as e.g. done in

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Quenya

(and a few other sources) introduces elements into the languages which are
clearly absent even in the Etymologies and hence cannot possibly be
claimed to be close to LOTR-style Quenya (which would seem to be the ideal
for most Neo-Quenya writers).

Agental suffixes are only an example of this phenomenon, the lesson to be
learned is that the differences in word formation between Early Qenya and
the Qenya of the Etymologies is substantial and need to be understood
better.

Ideally, borrowing vocabulary from the QL would then proceed from the root
rather than use the final word, utilizing the derivational system of the
Etymologies to create a result more consistent with the later material.

In any case, you are invited to study the article and to share comments.

* Thorsten

As the date of our conference approaches, I'd like to remind everyone
about it.

The exact info can be found at:
http://web.comhem.se/~u86023928/omentielva/otatya.htm

We still need some papers or topics for the sessions, so if you have an
original idea, don't hesitate but send it in.

Hi everybody, I'm a recently-registered member of this group and I've
been approaching to Sindarin with the LoTR movies. I've also found
reading this list very useful.
I was particularly interested in what the word order in sentences is
in Sindarin. I found several examples supporting different theses...
What order would you use? And why?

What do Boromir, Lembas, and Caradhras have in common? They have Nasal
Mutation in them. What do Caranthir, Muinthel, and Anborn have in
common? They don't have Nasal Mutation in them. Now we have an
interesting problem for Sindarin name translators and
reconstructionists. When do we use Nasal Mutation in Sindarin
compounds and names?

In compounds, I think the answer is easier. One goes back into the
roots  of the words you want to put together, and put the roots
together, then let the word evolve in Sindarin; this process has been
covered and discussed many times on this discussion board. Yet, there
still are contradictions. MOY+THEL became _muinthel_ instead of
"muithel". Or is that a leftover from Tolkien's Noldorin days?

But in names... there is a bigger problem. Tolkien wasn't consistent
in the way he used mutation. I think that it comes down to what
"sounds prettiest". Yet, we still want some sort of guide, a solid
structure to lean against, something to give us confidence that we are
doing it correctly. So, what, if any, structure do you see?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Navaer Lalaith" <elvenswordsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> In compounds, I think the answer is easier. One goes back into the
> roots  of the words you want to put together, and put the roots
> together, then let the word evolve in Sindarin; this process has been
> covered and discussed many times on this discussion board. Yet, there
> still are contradictions. MOY+THEL became _muinthel_ instead of
> "muithel". Or is that a leftover from Tolkien's Noldorin days?

Fiona,

I think the perceived "contradiction" is because _muinthel_ is
apparently not from the combination of two roots, but a later, simpler
compound of two already existing words, _muin_ and _thel_.

A little non sequitur about one other Sindarin name on your site, we'd
find *Bainhael rather than *Baissael because it comes from
*vanja-saila: the N and the S weren't in contact, and the -ja causes
i-affection and lenition. If you wanted assimilation of -ns- to -ss-,
you'd need to cut out the suffix -ja- and add _saila_ directly to the
root, making *ban-saila > *Bassael.

One more note: the title nasal lenition doesn't work, as "lenition" is
only what is called "soft mutation" — the other mutations are just
"mutations", rather than "lenitions".

Regards,
Matt

> Now we have an
> interesting problem for Sindarin name translators and
> reconstructionists. When do we use Nasal Mutation in Sindarin
> compounds and names?

> In compounds, I think the answer is easier.

I somehow do not share this notion. Can you give me a precise definition
of what the difference between a name and a compound in this context
should be? It seems to me that a compound is a general description for a
word consisting of two or more bits. A name is any word referring to a
person, place, animal, terrain feature etc. A name can be a compound or
not (_Beren_ is a name, but not a compound), and compound can be a name or
not, so I am hard-pressed to tell the difference.

> But in names... there is a bigger problem. Tolkien wasn't consistent
> in the way he used mutation.

Or we simply don't understand the rules...

Let me dig out a few examples involving the combinations _-np-_ and _nt_,
which the standard lore would probably change to _-ph-_ and _-th-_.

* Thorondor 'King of Eagles' (LR:392) with lenition _-nt- > -nd-_
* ifant < infant < inpanta < yen-panta 'year-full' (LR:358,400,VT46:23)
with nasal mutation _-np- > _-ph-_
* Fannor '*cloud-lord' (LR:389,395) from *span-tár with assimilation _-nt-
> -nn-_

So, if consistent means that the same cluster should always show the same
development, Tolkien was not consistent. You can always invoke a specific
history of the word to justify a form - but there is usually not much
evidence to go with. So, when we create words, we might as well create the
history along and justify with it whatever final form we like best.

> I think that it comes down to what
> "sounds prettiest". Yet, we still want some sort of guide, a solid
> structure to lean against, something to give us confidence that we are
> doing it correctly. So, what, if any, structure do you see?

Since I went through the business of counting (albeit in a limited scope,
only forms of the Etymologies) in

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/noldorin/compounds.html

I can confidently say that lenition happens most of the time. Everything
else is more rarely seen, though not by a huge margin. But I find myself
unable to deduce a rule.

* Thorsten

> I was particularly interested in what the word order in sentences is
> in Sindarin. I found several examples supporting different theses...
> What order would you use? And why?

I remember Aaron Shaw's article

http://sindarin.weet.us/syntax.html

of which a paragraph deals with the attested word order. Since in
transitive examples you can find SVO, VSO and SOV and in intransitive
examples both SV and VS the word order can apparently be rather free.
However, since Sindarin doesn't have a prominent marking of the object,
any O-S would often result in a sentence which cann't be interpreted
correctly, like e.g. _aras tîr edhel_ would not be readily read as 'an elf
watches a deer' but rather as 'a deer watches an elf', so presumably any
such variant is disfavoured.

* Thorsten

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Navaer Lalaith" <elvenswordsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> But in names... there is a bigger problem. Tolkien wasn't consistent
> in the way he used mutation. I think that it comes down to what
> "sounds prettiest".

Just for the record:

When you announced that you would take this discussion from your
forum:

http://realelvish.proboards54.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display\
&thread=1124055653&page=2
<http://realelvish.proboards54.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=displa\
y&thread=1124055653&page=2>

to Elfling, the points at issue were:

* The problem of your puzzling terminology.

* Your differentiation between "Noldorin-Sindarin" compounds, where
no "nasal lenition" would occur, as opposed to "Sindarin" compounds.

* The fact that, in view of your suggested name translations, you
seemed to believe that nasal muation would automatically take place,
whenever the first element of a compound ends in the consonant -n.

It seems that at least the latter point has been sufficiently
clarified by Thorsten.

Regards,
Erna







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse" <tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:

>If it can be interpreted as _ne-stad_ rather than _nes-tad_, might it
>contain _ne-_ "in, inside" and a word derived from the hypothetical
>root *STÁ/THÁ "*help, save" as found in _-star, -stámo_ [XII:391,
>385], _-sáro_ (-thârô) [V:188]? Just a thought.

This is certainly a possibility, provided that *STA- rather than *THA-
as seen in _ndani-thârô_ 'saviour of the Dani' was already current at
that time (_Rómestámo_ is from an essay Christopher Tolkien dates
1972-73(!) (PM:377)); and also provided that the root is indeed
*STA-/*THA- rather than *THAR-. Of course, _Rómestámo_ clearly points
at *STA-, but the earlier _thârô_ might be from *THAR- with the suffix
_-ô_.

I will note this, thanks!


RR.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse" <tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:
> Fiona,
>
> A little non sequitur about one other Sindarin name on your site, we'd
> find *Bainhael rather than *Baissael because it comes from
> *vanja-saila: the N and the S weren't in contact, and the -ja causes
> i-affection and lenition. If you wanted assimilation of -ns- to -ss-,
> you'd need to cut out the suffix -ja- and add _saila_ directly to the
> root, making *ban-saila > *Bassael.

That would be for the Sindarinized-Quenya names for Exiled Noldor
dwelling in Middle-earth, that name list, right? Well, I've cleaned up
the other name lists, but hadn't gotten to that one yet. Have at them
folks!

> One more note: the title nasal lenition doesn't work, as "lenition" is
> only what is called "soft mutation" — the other mutations are just
> "mutations", rather than "lenitions".

Thank-you. I know that I often confuse the official terminology of
"linguist-ize" because I'm more than a little self taught.

I've gotten this complaint before, actually, regarding the term
"Noldorin". Is there an easier way to  say, "The Sindarin language as
spoken by Exiled Noldor dwelling in Middle-earth", or in the case of
names: "Sindarinized-Quenya names for Exiled Noldor dwelling in
Middle-earth." I've been saying Noldorin-Sindarin, but apparently that
is too close to "Noldorin" as in the name for Tolkien's first draft of
Sindarin.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
> I somehow do not share this notion. Can you give me a precise
definition
> of what the difference between a name and a compound in this context
> should be? It seems to me that a compound is a general description
for a
> word consisting of two or more bits. A name is any word referring to a
> person, place, animal, terrain feature etc. A name can be a compound
or
> not (_Beren_ is a name, but not a compound), and compound can be a
name or
> not, so I am hard-pressed to tell the difference.

Sorry if I sounded vague! I meant "names" as in names for characters.
In this case, specifically names for characters made of two or more
words put together. Compounds, on the other hand, are word roots put
together.

> > But in names... there is a bigger problem. Tolkien wasn't consistent
> > in the way he used mutation.
>
> Or we simply don't understand the rules...

That is entirely possible. I think that Tolkien often changed his mind
as well, but didn't go back and change all of the words he put together.

> So, if consistent means that the same cluster should always show the
same
> development, Tolkien was not consistent. You can always invoke a
specific
> history of the word to justify a form - but there is usually not much
> evidence to go with. So, when we create words, we might as well
create the
> history along and justify with it whatever final form we like best.

In the end, I think that's all we can do.

I have read the articles on your website; that's very impressive work
that you've done with Noldorin!

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Navaer Lalaith" <elvenswordsmith@...>
wrote:
> I've gotten this complaint before, actually, regarding the term
> "Noldorin". Is there an easier way to  say, "The Sindarin language as
> spoken by Exiled Noldor dwelling in Middle-earth", or in the case of
> names: "Sindarinized-Quenya names for Exiled Noldor dwelling in
> Middle-earth." I've been saying Noldorin-Sindarin, but apparently that
> is too close to "Noldorin" as in the name for Tolkien's first draft of
> Sindarin.
>

Fiona,

Perhaps you could call it "Exilic Sindarin"? Though some names are
simply Quenya or Telerin adapted into Sindarin phonology, like
_Angaráto_ > _Angrod_, or _Anardil_ > _Enerdhil_ (cf. Roman Rausch's
post on Aglardh), whereas the Sindarin dialect of Imladris is said in
RGEO to be influenced by Quenya because of the Ñoldor there.

Tolkien wrote of the Rivendell Elves' Sindarin: "The language is
Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves (of which kind were
most of the Elves in Rivendell), marked in high style and verse by the
influence of Quenya, which had been originally their normal tongue",
citing _menel_, _le_, and _palan-_ as words in A Elbereth Gilthoniel
that were influenced by Quenya and particular to Exilic Sindarin.

Regards,
Matt Dinse

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Navaer Lalaith" <elvenswordsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> Sorry if I sounded vague! I meant "names" as in names for characters.
> In this case, specifically names for characters made of two or more
> words put together. Compounds, on the other hand, are word roots put
> together.
>

I expect that you'll get comments on this part — compounds that aren't
names can also be made up of words put together. Compare N. _andeith_
from _and_ + _teith_, both words of which are attested in Etym. If it
were just from the roots, we wouldn't find -deith but something like
-*deg.

Additionally, Roman Rausch has noted in his article "Systematic
Approach to Elvish Name Translations" on his site Sindanórie that
Tolkien sometimes made names comprised of a compound made with an
existing noun and a root, as in _Eldakar_ rather than _*Eldakarma_ or
_*Eldacassa_.

So names can be made from compounds of words, from roots, from
compounds of words and roots, etc. And the same goes with non-name
compounds.

Regards,
Matt Dinse

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:
> * The problem of your puzzling terminology.

Sorry about that. Help is graciously accepted in this matter.

> * Your differentiation between "Noldorin-Sindarin" compounds, where
> no "nasal lenition" would occur, as opposed to "Sindarin" compounds.

Right. Matt just wrote about that as well. I think that when dealing
with character's names, the history of the character is very
important. If this character is an Exiled Noldo, and the name once was
in Quenya, the name would be made differently than it would be if a
Sinda was making the name for the first time in Sindarin. For
examples, look at Fëanáro-->Fëanor and Lalwendë-->Lalwen. The Noldor
tried to make the Sindarin versions of their names sound as much like
the Quenya versions as possible - That's my interpretation of it.

> * The fact that, in view of your suggested name translations, you
> seemed to believe that nasal muation would automatically take place,
> whenever the first element of a compound ends in the consonant -n.

Whenever the first element of a compound ends in the consonant -n, the
possibility of nasal mutation is there. Sometimes it is taken,
sometimes not. I'm still trying to figure out a pattern to cling to.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Navaer Lalaith" <elvenswordsmith@...>
wrote:
>
>I think that when dealing with character's names, the history of the
>character is very important. If this character is an Exiled Noldo, and
>the name once was in Quenya, the name would be made differently than it
>would be if a Sinda was making the name for the first time in Sindarin.
>For examples, look at Fëanáro-->Fëanor and Lalwendë-->Lalwen. The
>Noldor tried to make the Sindarin versions of their names sound as much
>like the Quenya versions as possible - That's my interpretation of it.

Well, the 'Note on mother names' from the 'Shibboleth of Feanor'
obviously discusses two different approaches to the treatment of the
names of the Noldor.
One is a pure phonetic adaptation as in the case of _Lalwende_ >
_Lalwen_. The other is a genuine Sindarin formation - in this case it
would have given _Gladhwen_ (PM:359).

What of the two is _Caranthir_? His Quenya name was _Carnistir_
(PM:353) and in VT41:10 we read:

"Sindarin _carani_ > _caran_ + _þîr_ 'face' (< _stîrê_) [?substituted]
for Q. _car'ni-stîr(e)_. So _Caranthir_."

To me it thus seems to be the latter - a genuine (and late) Sindarin
formation with the developed _caran_ and _þîr_ put together, which can
show us how the _n-þ_ contact is treated in a late Sindarin compound.

An early compounding _*carani-stîrê_ would have probably given
something different (depending on the syncope), compare _Arothir_ vs.
_Aracchír_ on the previous page.

Thinking about a possible phonetic adaptation it appears to me that
_Carnistir_ fits Sindarin well enough: Medial _-st-_ is retained, one
could think about i-affection to _*Cernistir_, but I don't see much
more to do.


RR.

> I've gotten this complaint before, actually, regarding the term
> "Noldorin". Is there an easier way to  say, "The Sindarin language as
> spoken by Exiled Noldor dwelling in Middle-earth", or in the case of
> names: "Sindarinized-Quenya names for Exiled Noldor dwelling in
> Middle-earth." I've been saying Noldorin-Sindarin, but apparently that
> is too close to "Noldorin" as in the name for Tolkien's first draft of
> Sindarin.




There seems to be some misconception about what Noldorin is - it is by no
means the first draft of Sindarin - Noldorin was conceived as a language
in its own right (the language of the Noldor) - but Tolkien eventually
decided that the Noldor spoke Quenya after all, so the language was
assigned to different people.

Neither is Noldorin the first of the series of the Celtic branch of
Tolkien's Elvish languages - that would presumably be Goldogrin (Gnomish),
see e.g.
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/goldogrin/grammar.html
and there are still a few more layers between the Noldorin of the
Etymologies and Goldogrin.

Most people would probably understand Noldorin as the language described
in the Etymologies, so the term cannot be readily applied to another
language. In any case, since you assume that there are substantial
differences between the Sindarin spoken by the Sindar and the Sindarin
spoken by the Noldor, I would be interested in hearing what exactly you
think these differences are and why you think so.

* Thorsten

Last night one of the local TV stations found some pretext for airing "The
Passion of the Christ".

After Mel Gibson has made sure we get to see every last drop of Jesus' blood,
something interesting turns up in the credits. One of the actors -- the one who
portrayed the apostle John, apparently -- is called Hristo Jivkov. Moreover, one
Hristo Naumov Shopov did Pontius Pilate.

Surely "Hristo" must be derived from Christ/Christus/Khristos. And Hristo
(sometimes Hrísto) is also the Quenyarized form of "Christ" that Tolkien used in
his translation of Catholic prayers! I would have thought that this was a form
Tolkien himself invented (surely the spelling hr- is not very common in
real-world languages), but may he actually have taken it from an existing
language, since it fits Quenya style and spelling well enough?

- HKF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
> I remember Aaron Shaw's article
>
> http://sindarin.weet.us/syntax.html
>
> of which a paragraph deals with the attested word order. Since in
> transitive examples you can find SVO, VSO and SOV and in intransitive
> examples both SV and VS the word order can apparently be rather free.
> However, since Sindarin doesn't have a prominent marking of the
object,
> any O-S would often result in a sentence which cann't be interpreted
> correctly, like e.g. _aras tîr edhel_ would not be readily read as
'an elf
> watches a deer' but rather as 'a deer watches an elf', so presumably
any
> such variant is disfavoured.
>
> * Thorsten
>

Thank you very much for your kind answer. And what about intransitive
sentences with complements? For example, would you write "Aragorn came
to Imladris", "Aragorn to Imladris came" or "to Imladris Aragorn came"
(supposing we're using SV order)?
Thank you again in advance

It's not that complicated. Quenya, as well as some other languages, has
initial H instead of CH, possibly being just the same sound with a
simplified spelling

Christ or Hristo can be a proper name in some languages. Take for
example the name Chris

I think it's only a quite logical coincidence

O/H Helge K. Fauskanger έγ�αψε:
>
> Last night one of the local TV stations found some pretext for airing
> "The Passion of the Christ".
>
> After Mel Gibson has made sure we get to see every last drop of Jesus'
> blood, something interesting turns up in the credits. One of the
> actors -- the one who portrayed the apostle John, apparently -- is
> called Hristo Jivkov. Moreover, one Hristo Naumov Shopov did Pontius
> Pilate.
>
> Surely "Hristo" must be derived from Christ/Christus/Khristos. And
> Hristo (sometimes Hrísto) is also the Quenyarized form of "Christ"
> that Tolkien used in his translation of Catholic prayers! I would have
> thought that this was a form Tolkien himself invented (surely the
> spelling hr- is not very common in real-world languages), but may he
> actually have taken it from an existing language, since it fits Quenya
> style and spelling well enough?
>
> - HKF
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

HRISTOS A ÎNVIAT !
Adevãrat a înviat !

(My greeting in Romanian well appropriate this morning ;-) to y'all)

Edhil

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> Last night one of the local TV stations found some pretext for airing "The
Passion of the
Christ".
>
> After Mel Gibson has made sure we get to see every last drop of Jesus' blood,
something
interesting turns up in the credits. One of the actors -- the one who portrayed
the apostle
John, apparently -- is called Hristo Jivkov. Moreover, one Hristo Naumov Shopov
did
Pontius Pilate.
>
> Surely "Hristo" must be derived from Christ/Christus/Khristos. And Hristo
(sometimes
Hrísto) is also the Quenyarized form of "Christ" that Tolkien used in his
translation of
Catholic prayers! I would have thought that this was a form Tolkien himself
invented
(surely the spelling hr- is not very common in real-world languages), but may he
actually
have taken it from an existing language, since it fits Quenya style and spelling
well
enough?
>
> - HKF
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In modern Greek  the word for Christ is Hristos, though in ancient it would the
pronunced  Christos.

   The fact that Quenya word Hristo coincides with words of real languages is
very interesting.

   Mi Erye

"A.W.T." <Ti@...> wrote:
           HRISTOS A ÎNVIAT !
Adevãrat a înviat !

(My greeting in Romanian well appropriate this morning ;-) to y'all)

Edhil

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
wrote:
>
> Last night one of the local TV stations found some pretext for airing "The
Passion of the
Christ".
>
> After Mel Gibson has made sure we get to see every last drop of Jesus' blood,
something
interesting turns up in the credits. One of the actors -- the one who portrayed
the apostle
John, apparently -- is called Hristo Jivkov. Moreover, one Hristo Naumov Shopov
did
Pontius Pilate.
>
> Surely "Hristo" must be derived from Christ/Christus/Khristos. And Hristo
(sometimes
Hrísto) is also the Quenyarized form of "Christ" that Tolkien used in his
translation of
Catholic prayers! I would have thought that this was a form Tolkien himself
invented
(surely the spelling hr- is not very common in real-world languages), but may he
actually
have taken it from an existing language, since it fits Quenya style and spelling
well
enough?
>
> - HKF
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






---------------------------------
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Edhil a scris:

>HRISTOS A ÎNVIAT !
>Adevãrat a înviat !
>
>(My greeting in Romanian well appropriate this morning ;-) to y'all)

Excellent, now I know that one too! I have a soft spot for both
the Romanian language and Orthodox church aesthetics.

The "Christ is risen" phrase is of course also something that has
in many languages been translated either by the compound
expression of past participle + copula (Finnish way of forming the
perfect!) or by the commonest past tense. Nowadays in Finland
the latter seems to be in more frequent use.

(I also wish I knew of an online Syriac Peshitta that'd have more
than just the Gospels and the Acts... Attempting to vocalize some
quotes yesterday, I was rather genuinely surprised of much help
Thackston's grammar et al. have already bestowed me, even
though part of it is still educated guesswork.)

"Harul Domnului Isus Hristos, dragostea lui Dumnezeu ši împãrtãširea
Duhului Sfânt sã fie cu voi cu tot,i."

Elhath

_________________________________________________________________
MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.  Enter to win today.
http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline

close... close...

Hristo is an existing surname in Bulgarian, afaik.

Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hristo_Botev

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: A.W.T. <Ti@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2007 8:55:53 AM
Subject: [elfling] Re: "Hristo" in a primary-world language?

HRISTOS A ÎNVIAT !
Adevãrat a înviat !

(My greeting in Romanian well appropriate this morning ;-) to y'all)

Edhil








________________________________________________________________________________\
____
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php

On 10.4.2007 Atwe wrote:
  > close... close...
  >
  > Hristo is an existing surname in Bulgarian, afaik.
  >
  > Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hristo_Botev
  >
  > Thomas Ferencz

Those who are as old as me or older certainly remember
footballer Hristo Stoichkov,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hristo_Stoichkov> (who
incidentally was born earlier in the same year as me!)

AFAIK Hristo is also the form for 'Christ' in
Bosnian- Croatian-Serbian (though spelled in Cyrillic
in the latter as in Bulgarian, of course!) One would
expect _Hristo_ to look like a neuter word in Slavic
languages, though!

FWIW Finnish has _Risto_ as a given name, which is in that
language a shortening of _Christopher_, although most people
probably associate it to the noun _risti_ 'cross'. 'Christ'
oddly is the 'Swedish' loan _Kristus_ in Finnish, the
initial cluster of which violates Finnish phonotactics.
Surely _Christ(o|u)s_ would have become _Risto_ in Finnish
if borrowed spontaneously, directly and early enough. Cf.
how Greek _ta grammata_, borrowed via Old Russian, became
_raamattu_ 'Bible' in Finnish!

But then the most strange things can happen to loan words.
To stay in the religious sphere the term _Buddha_ was
borrowed from Sanskrit into Middle Chinese as _Bywet_, which
was close enough, but has become _Fo_ in Mandarin and _Fat_
in Cantonese. Clearly some languages are more amenable to
translation or calque than borrowing, and I would count
Quenya among those languages, if it weren't for Tolkien's
own example in the case of the holy names.
--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

"I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody
is altogether on my side"                   -- Fangorn

Hello,

looking at the body of Valarin loanwords in Quenya I think the language is as
ready to accept loans as the next one...

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:54:01 AM
Subject: Re: [elfling] Re: "Hristo" in a primary-world language?

On 10.4.2007 Atwe wrote:
  > close... close...
  >
  > Hristo is an existing surname in Bulgarian, afaik.
  >
  > Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hristo_Botev
  >
  > Thomas Ferencz

Those who are as old as me or older certainly remember
footballer Hristo Stoichkov,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hristo_Stoichkov> (who
incidentally was born earlier in the same year as me!)

AFAIK Hristo is also the form for 'Christ' in
Bosnian- Croatian-Serbian (though spelled in Cyrillic
in the latter as in Bulgarian, of course!) One would
expect _Hristo_ to look like a neuter word in Slavic
languages, though!

FWIW Finnish has _Risto_ as a given name, which is in that
language a shortening of _Christopher_, although most people
probably associate it to the noun _risti_ 'cross'. 'Christ'
oddly is the 'Swedish' loan _Kristus_ in Finnish, the
initial cluster of which violates Finnish phonotactics.
Surely _Christ(o|u)s_ would have become _Risto_ in Finnish
if borrowed spontaneously, directly and early enough. Cf.
how Greek _ta grammata_, borrowed via Old Russian, became
_raamattu_ 'Bible' in Finnish!

But then the most strange things can happen to loan words.
To stay in the religious sphere the term _Buddha_ was
borrowed from Sanskrit into Middle Chinese as _Bywet_, which
was close enough, but has become _Fo_ in Mandarin and _Fat_
in Cantonese. Clearly some languages are more amenable to
translation or calque than borrowing, and I would count
Quenya among those languages, if it weren't for Tolkien's
own example in the case of the holy names.
--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se







________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html

Since I became recently interested in Vanyarin and I could not find any
systematic compilation of what Tolkien has to say about it, I decided to
write it myself. The result is now available on Parma Tyelpelassiva

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/index.html

in the Quenya grammar section as

"What is Vanyarin Quenya like?"
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/vanyarin_quenya.html

Comments and further feedback are welcome (and a tentative Vanyarin
composition in preparation).

* Thorsten