Hi Bob,

I can't tell you how 'often' "things" should be translated, but in this specific
case it should be. "Things" here is a collective for all the creatures lurking
in the deep, so IMHO it cannot be left out.

As for the definite article in the sentence, (in my mind and lambetyáve at
least) it really belongs to _nomissen_, or, rather, the whole phrase "Ambaro
tumne nomissen" acts as a unit (a noun with two descriptors) and the article
precedes it.
But I can certainly accept if others say that no article is needed at all in the
sentence, as the genitive already sufficiently defines the noun.

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: roberthahl <roberthahl@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:13:41 PM
Subject: [elfling] Re: Newbie trying to Translate!!

Atwe,

How often do you think it's necessary to replace the English word
"things" with it's Quenya equivalent, or is the word "things" implied
in the Quenya? Also, does the word _Ambaro_ require an article _i_?
This goes beyond the scope of "right" or "wrong" Quenya of course, but
as you know I'm always looking for your thoughts on semantics.

Bob Powers

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Atwe <percival64@...> wrote:
>
> You are close. I would change the word order around a bit and some
of the declensions you got wrong but otherwise OK.
>
> I would put this sentence as
>
> 'Engwi enwine ar saure lá urqui nar i Ambaro tumne (or núre) nomissen.'
>
> Shine on,
>
> Thomas Ferencz
>
> Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
> Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: erusphere <erusphere@...>
> To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 4:10:31 PM
> Subject: [elfling] Newbie trying to Translate!!
>
> Hey!!!
>
> I've been through the exercises on Ardalambion and I tried to translate
> this phrase:
>
> "There are things far older and fouler than orcs in the deep places of
> the world"
>
> This is my attempt:
>
> "Naar engwi onwinar ar saurar laa urqui i tumna nomissen i Ambaro"
>
> would this be correct?
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated...
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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Atwe,

Trying not to carry on the discussion any more than is necessary, but
I meant how often "things" as being like the case of the English
"ones". You needn't say _vanime queni_ in Quenya, because unlike
English, "ones" is not necessary. Does this apply here; if so, when
and why do you think? Or is *saurar simply enough to get the idea of
"foul things" across, as opposed to _saure engwi_? I guess you
answered the question well enough anyhow, but it was something I
thought might be worth discussion, though apparently I didn't pique
your interest enough! You are always more than willing to answer my
inane inquires, though, so thank you for your response.

Just to clarify in case the question was too vague.

Bob Powers

> I can't tell you how 'often' "things" should be translated, but in
this specific case it should be. "Things" here is a collective for all
the creatures lurking in the deep, so IMHO it cannot be left out.

Bob,

the question is not inane at all. Just I think that in this specific sentence
"things" is not a general subject like "ones" would be, but a specific subject
describing creatures that cannot be named because their specific nature and name
is unknown so we apply this generic term to them.

Just my 0.02 pence

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: roberthahl <roberthahl@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:31:21 PM
Subject: [elfling] Re: Newbie trying to Translate!!

Atwe,

Trying not to carry on the discussion any more than is necessary, but
I meant how often "things" as being like the case of the English
"ones". You needn't say _vanime queni_ in Quenya, because unlike
English, "ones" is not necessary. Does this apply here; if so, when
and why do you think? Or is *saurar simply enough to get the idea of
"foul things" across, as opposed to _saure engwi_? I guess you
answered the question well enough anyhow, but it was something I
thought might be worth discussion, though apparently I didn't pique
your interest enough! You are always more than willing to answer my
inane inquires, though, so thank you for your response.

Just to clarify in case the question was too vague.

Bob Powers

> I can't tell you how 'often' "things" should be translated, but in
this specific case it should be. "Things" here is a collective for all
the creatures lurking in the deep, so IMHO it cannot be left out.



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Hi ppl,

I found a textbook among the Wikibooks:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/en/5/5d/Quenya_wikibooks.pdf

What do you think, how reliable/trustworthy is it?

-- Yitzik

As posted on Aglardh:

This is a ballad inspired by Loreena McKennitt's The Highwayman on
the album The Book of Secrets (the bold and daring could even sing it
to the tune of The Highwayman).

Enjoy and comment, please. I hope it is comprehensible.






Lirilla Morinde Olosto   - The Lay of Morinde and Olosto





Tára ar halla Olosto, cassarya tyelpenen síla

Tarya, vanya Morinde, finderya súrinen víla

Míri i vendeo hendu, luhtar Olosto enda,

Ye yála i marya olombo, olombo, olombo

Yála i marya rocco

Or i eleni círa



"Aiya Morinde, melda, Anar ancalima síra

Cuivanen níte *arinde, nísime lotsi lyen hosta

Tálinyat lintave lender, súre enge collanya

Imbi i lotsi hóninya, hóninya, hóninya

Cuina carne hóninya

Ya elyen tennoio palpa"



"Manan nin nísime lotsi, sintuvar tenna sinye

Netyan er imni lotsínen i anvanime ve inye

Háya i Taure pella orotinga i fanyare nasta

Hiruval Tyeleporne, Tyeleporne, Tyeleporne

Calarína Tyeleporne

*Yo lóten endanya milya"



Núrave cáva Olosto, indory' alassea, verya

Oar quéra Morinde, órerya ve ondo sarda

Ette i laica palisse lemya i rocco marya

Síve alaco rimpa, rimpa, rimpa

Alaco orna rimpa

Hostaryes ostoandonna



Halle i osto rambar, i ando ve palla ráma

Nimpe i sinda nisse ye se i talma hára

"Ávalye auta, yonya, lumna i fanyare síra

Ette orcoron úme, úme, úme

Rauce orcoron úme

Ar qualme *asente nurta"



"Ávalye naina, amme, langonya linta ve sú

Omentuvan cé valaraucar, melmenya turuva ilú"

Tára ar halla Olosto, cassarya tyelpenen síla

Tere i ando telconta, telconta, telconta

Tere i ando telconta

Oreryasse i melme líra



Tarya, sára Morinde, finderya súrinen víla

Vanya Olosto loico, antarya sercenen rína

Langorya cúna, ascanta, endarya raina ar séra

Súmaryasse tyelemne lotsi, lotsi, lotsi

Tyeleporneo írime lotsi

Fearya im éli círa

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk





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> I found a textbook among the Wikibooks:
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/en/5/5d/Quenya_wikibooks.pdf
>
> What do you think, how reliable/trustworthy is it?

I have to apologize, I am somewhat short of time and can't look up all the
references for what I'm going to say and do a detailed comparison to
Tolkien's works, as I have done in my past discussion of e.g. David Salo's
'Gateway to Sindarin', so for the moment you have to take my statements
somewhat on faith (though I can and will back them up eventually if so
desired).

The textbook has no references to what material it is based on, the
majority of ideas seem to be taken from Helge Fauskanger's Quenya course.
Perhaps more seriously, the textbook has also (unlike Helge's course) no
reference to Tolkien's works, neither does it  mark unattested forms or
speculations as such (unlike my own Quenya course). Furthermore, it
contains quite some number of Qenya words (belonging to an earlier
conceptual phase) which are, using some never defined scheme, mixed with
late forms. Instead, it makes usually only factual statements about the
nature of Quenya, a lot of which are in reality conjectures, others can
even be demonstrated to be wrong.

For example, on p.17 we learn that the perfect tense of _lanta-_ would be
_arantie_. This is based on the idea that in compounds, the original root
consonants may reappear, possibly changed by its environment. Helge
Fauskanger discusses the possibility that this may be so in an appendix to
his course. I have shown in my article "Analogical leveling in Quenya
compounds"

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/quenya_compounds.html

that while this indeed happens in some cases, the majority of Quenya
compounds is simple. In particular, of the attested compounds of the roots
DANT/TAL�T

Atalantë 'the Fallen' (DAT/DANT, TAL�T, SIL, SD:247, 310; also LR:47)
lasselanta 'leaf-fall' (Appendix D, Letters:428)
Noldolantë 'the Fall of the Noldor' (SIL)

none shows the conjectured behaviour. The matter of fact form _?arantie_
is therefore rather questionable. I bring this mainly for illustration of
my point, there are many more similar (and more serious) examples.

It seems to me that by using the textbook, one will not learn much more
than by studying Helge Fauskanger's Quenya lessons, but one will miss the
link to Tolkien which Helge provides in detail and one will pick up a fair
share of what is just the opinion of the textbook's author(s) without even
knowing. I would recommend not to use it. Regardless if you're looking for
a fanfic approach to Elvish or a scholarly treatment, there are better
works available.

On a more general note:

I think one cannot dispute that interpreting Tolkien's writings about
Elvish is very much scholarly work - it requires careful consideration of
the source and their context before theories are formed. Furthermore, it
is clearly a developing field - there are many areas in which original
material exists, but it hasn't been investigated sufficiently so that the
systematics isn't known. In other areas (Sindarin grammar for example),
there are different opinions around which cannot be resolved given the
material we have.

It seems to me that in this situation, the Wikipedia concept is bound to
fail - different authors, with the best of intentions, may mix theories
which do not go together into one article. Non-established theories
quickly 'become' fact because an author happens to believe them, and so on.

I would think that the scientific approach to publishing, i.e. clear
authorship, mentioning relevant sources and ideally even peer review (cf.
the Tengwestie journal) is more fruitful in a field in which there is
little solid knowledge and still active research going on. Case in point,
the Wikipedia entry on Quenya contains a few glaring mistakes, for example
the 3rd person sg. masculine median pronominal ending _-r_ (I am rather
sure it is a short ending, and in any case it is attested as _-s_).

Well, that may be more than the answer you were looking for, but that's
life ;-)

* Thorsten

Hallo all.
I've recently begun studying quenya again, and I am trying to
translate my name.
About three years ago I found a name generator which translated my
actual name into Anáwiel. Now I am trying to figure out what it
actually means, I don't know how the name-generators work but I like
this name :)

I found in a quenya dictionary that ana- means to, towards and wil
means to fly. This was the closest to this name, however if this is
its meaning, why is it Anáwiel and not Anawil , what does this á in
the middle mean and why is the suffux -iel and not -il ?
The name is supposed to be unisex, I forgot how are the male and
female variations. Thanks in advance :)

rikkuras_del_mas_alla wrote :

>Unfortunately, I don't know what
>languages do the recorded people on _Glaemscrafu_ speak, but they seem
>to not speak English.

Bertrand Bellet and Benjamin Babut (Glaemscrafu autors, that is) both speak
French (as do I).

Faenglor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks very much for the help!  When I get the tattoo done, I'll post
another message to the list with a picture.

Torrey

On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 14:59 +0200, Lakis Lalakis wrote:
> Hi Torrey
>
> All your attempts, transcription, understanding, pronunciation etc
> seem
> perfectly correct, at least to me.
>
> Congratulations for your effort, and watch out for the off-place
> tehtar

Atwe,

I'd just change "nar" for "ear", since it describes existence.


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Atwe <percival64@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I can't tell you how 'often' "things" should be translated, but in
this specific case it should be. "Things" here is a collective for all
the creatures lurking in the deep, so IMHO it cannot be left out.
>
> As for the definite article in the sentence, (in my mind and
lambetyáve at least) it really belongs to _nomissen_, or, rather, the
whole phrase "Ambaro tumne nomissen" acts as a unit (a noun with two
descriptors) and the article precedes it.
> But I can certainly accept if others say that no article is needed
at all in the sentence, as the genitive already sufficiently defines
the noun.
>
> Thomas Ferencz

>First, you have to know that the word for "dream" is _olos_ or _olor_
>in Quenya and _ol_ (read _ôl_?) in Noldorin/Sindarin.

Well, yeah, it might be, exept that according to Unfinished Tales, _olor_/_olos_
might not mean exactly "dream". Remember what UT says :

"Olor is a word often translated "dream", but that does not refer to (most)
human "dreams," certainly not the dreams of sleep. To the Eldar it included the
vivid contents of their memory, as of their imagination: it referred in fact to
clear vision, in the mind, of things not physically present at the body's
situation. But not only to an idea, but to a full clothing of this in particular
form and detail.

An isolated etymological note explains the meaning similarly:

olo's: vision, "phantasy:" Common Elvish name for "construction of the mind" not
actually (pre)existing in Ëa apart from the construction, but by the Eldar
capable of being by Art (Karmë) made visible and sensible. Olos is usually
applied to fair construction having solely an artistic object (i.e. not having
the object of deception, or of acquiring power)."

Not that I have better to propose, but I just reminded that because our friend
whats to be sure of the word. I'll let him decide if it express well enough what
he meant.

Only to stay careful,
Faenglor

PS : By the way, do any of you know why my previous messages appeared on the
list days after I sent them ? The rest of you don't seem to have this trouble
(it is kind of difficult to participate in a followed discussion with a delay of
some days)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the advice.  I think I've got it right, from your
description.  When I get the tattoo finished, I'll post another note to
the list with a link to the picture.

Torrey

On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 09:56 -0800, Robert Wheelock wrote:
> Hello, Torrey!

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Robin Holliger" <robin.holliger@...>
wrote:
>
> >First, you have to know that the word for "dream" is _olos_ or
_olor_
> >in Quenya and _ol_ (read _ôl_?) in Noldorin/Sindarin.
>
> Well, yeah, it might be, exept that according to Unfinished Tales,
_olor_/_olos_ might not mean exactly "dream". Remember what UT says :
>
> "Olor is a word often translated "dream", but that does not refer
to (most) human "dreams," certainly not the dreams of sleep. To the
Eldar it included the vivid contents of their memory, as of their
imagination: it referred in fact to clear vision, in the mind, of
things not physically present at the body's situation. But not only
to an idea, but to a full clothing of this in particular form and
detail.
>
> An isolated etymological note explains the meaning similarly:
>
> olo's: vision, "phantasy:" Common Elvish name for "construction of
the mind" not actually (pre)existing in Ëa apart from the
construction, but by the Eldar capable of being by Art (Karmë) made
visible and sensible. Olos is usually applied to fair construction
having solely an artistic object (i.e. not having the object of
deception, or of acquiring power)."
>
> Not that I have better to propose, but I just reminded that because
our friend whats to be sure of the word. I'll let him decide if it
express well enough what he meant.
>
Hey, I only wrote what I knew... Furthermore, in Etym the stem OLOS-
  "dream" is derived from LOS- "sleep".

> PS : By the way, do any of you know why my previous messages
appeared on the list days after I sent them ? The rest of you don't
seem to have this trouble (it is kind of difficult to participate in
a followed discussion with a delay of some days)
>
Yeah, don't worry, it happens to me too, but my messages don't get so
delayed (only some hours). It might be that the moderator has to
approve the messages.

Cheers!

Olga

I recently started to wonder exactly what examples the "updating" of
N. -gl- from -tl- as in _egledhron_ into S. *-dl- is based upon
(providing the root and derivation stay the same in the transition to
Sindarin). Can anyone provide those relevant examples of -dl- from
-tl- _attested_ in Sindarin? Thanks.

I remember there was a discussion of _atlanno_ and its 'updating" to
_*adlanno_ on Council of Elrond.com, and came across a July 2005
statement by CFH in "A Different Past Tense System" that:

"What Tolkien actually wrote in Etym. is atlanno. That this form is
deliberate is corroborated by two other forms (given in my and Pat's
"A&C", VT46:17): atlaud (> aclod) 'sloping, tilted', which itself was
first written "tlaud (claud)". All of this shows that, in Noldorin at
least, Tolkien did indeed see the development as to tl (not **dl),
which then in later language went to cl. (And we have no example in
Sindarin to indicate that the development was any different there.)"

So, I searched Elfling and Lambengolmor but found nothing on this
topic (perhaps I didn't search with the correct terms) ... can anyone
help by providing the examples this theory of "updating" to -dl-
relies on (if there are any)?

Regards,
M. Dinse

On several occasions I came across the S(?) word _*mistad_.

'Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary' gives "_mistad*_ (_mistrad_) n.
straying, error" and "_mistrad_ -> _mistad_".
David Salo's 'Gateway' gives "#Mistad, n. ger.: straying, error [OS
*mistata _MIS1_]"(p.273).

In Etym:373 the Noldorin word clearly seems to be _mistrad_. VT45 did
not provide any indication of a potential misreading, as far as I
know.
Given the Noldorin words (Etym:373): "N _mist_ error, wandering;
_misto_ to stray; _mistrad_ straying, error", it would seem plausible
to me that _mistrad_ might rather be a compound of _mist_+_râd_ than
the gerund of _misto_.

Under _RAT-_ (Etym:383) we find the seemingly similar "_ostrad_ a
street".

N _ostrad_ was updated to S _*othrad_ in 'Hiswelókë's dictionary' and
in the 'Gateway'(p.279), for comprehensible reasons, cf. _othrond_
(Etym:379) etc.

Therefore, N _mistrad_ might become S _*mithrad_, and more
justifiably so, IMHO.

Any comments/corrections would be appreciated.

Regards,
Erna

Thorsten Renk wrote:


> Well, that may be more than the answer you were looking for, but that's
> life ;-)

Nay, that was okay... Thank you very much. I would expect something like
that in a Wiki.
I am sure ppl need to treat Tolkien's material intact, and reconstruct the
garmmar and vocabulary as precise / close to the original ideas, as
possible, and work out a system, not a mix.
But is there a chance to make something usable for litterature and
communication out of Quenya, as we know it now?

-- Yitzik

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse" <tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:
> So, I searched Elfling and Lambengolmor but found nothing on this
> topic (perhaps I didn't search with the correct terms) ... can anyone
> help by providing the examples this theory of "updating" to -dl-
> relies on (if there are any)?

As far as I know there is only one vague example, a hardly legible
sentence from WR:293 reading:

Gir.. edlothiand na ngalad melon i ni [?sevo] ni [?edran]

David Salo writes about _edlothiand_:

"The draft text is found in The War of the Ring, p. 293. I have looked
at the original text in Marquette, and my reading is unmistakably
_edlothiad_; i.e., a simple gerund. We may suppose an older verb
*etlotsya-."
[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/3026]

In the 'Etymologies' it is also notable that _hadlath_, _haglath_ 'a
sling' (KHAT-) are written beside each other, although the latter form
appears to be the (internally) later one.

RR.

You know the answer already: depends... and very limited

O/H Isaac Penzev έγ�αψε:
> But is there a chance to make something usable for litterature and
> communication out of Quenya, as we know it now?
>
> -- Yitzik
>
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:

> Given the Noldorin words (Etym:373): "N _mist_ error, wandering;
> _misto_ to stray; _mistrad_ straying, error", it would seem
> plausible to me that _mistrad_ might rather be a compound of
> _mist_+_râd_ than the gerund of _misto_.

This was my idea, too.

> Therefore, N _mistrad_ might become S _*mithrad_, and more
> justifiably so, IMHO.

Yes, I think it would make more sense than _*mistad_.
But in the 'Etymologies', N. _othrond_ = _ost-rond_ (OS-), _othlond_
'paved way' < _ost_ + _lond_ (LOD-), _Gondothrim_, _Gondothlim_ <
_Gondost_ (GOND-) can obviously coexist with N. _mistrad_ (MIS-) and
_ostrad_ 'street' (RAT-), so do we need an 'update' here at all?

RR.

Hi

Those translators don't actually translate your name. That's how they
work :)

You can try find a Quenya name of you if you translate themeaning of
your actual name.

O/H Anáwiel έγ�αψε:
>
> Hallo all.
> I've recently begun studying quenya again, and I am trying to
> translate my name.
> About three years ago I found a name generator which translated my
> actual name into Anáwiel. Now I am trying to figure out what it
> actually means, I don't know how the name-generators work but I like
> this name :)
>
> I found in a quenya dictionary that ana- means to, towards and wil
> means to fly. This was the closest to this name, however if this is
> its meaning, why is it Anáwiel and not Anawil , what does this á in
> the middle mean and why is the suffux -iel and not -il ?
> The name is supposed to be unisex, I forgot how are the male and
> female variations. Thanks in advance :)
>
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Anáwiel <bilyana_n@...> wrote:
>
> Hallo all.
> I've recently begun studying quenya again, and I am trying to
> translate my name.
> About three years ago I found a name generator which translated my
> actual name into Anáwiel. Now I am trying to figure out what it
> actually means, I don't know how the name-generators work but I like
> this name :)
>
> I found in a quenya dictionary that ana- means to, towards and wil
> means to fly. This was the closest to this name, however if this is
> its meaning, why is it Anáwiel and not Anawil , what does this á in
> the middle mean and why is the suffux -iel and not -il ?
> The name is supposed to be unisex, I forgot how are the male and
> female variations. Thanks in advance :)
>
I might say the same as Lakis Lalakis, although I don't have much
experience with name generators. If you want to know your name in
Quenya I recommend this website:
http://www.elvish.org/elm/names.html
I hope you find your name there.

Cheers!

Olga

I know, but I didn't mean to translate my actual name but the one the
generator gave me. I mean I am trying to find out what Anáwiel means
and how names are created in quenya. When an 'a' besomes long 'a' (or
'á') and what does this -iel suffix mean in names (Galadriel has it
also).
Sorry for the confusion, I am a bit bad at explaining :(

Isaac Penzev wrote:

> But is there a chance to make something usable for literature and
> communication out of Quenya, as we know it now?

Even the Elvish of the Grey Company can be used for literature and
communication, so I must be misunderstanding your question (or
possibly you asked the wrong question).

--Bill

Anáwiel is not a Quenya name, at least not in terms of having an actual meaning.
Bilyana means "herb" in Bulgarian according to a Google search on baby names. In
Quenya the closest word would be "salquë" which is glossed "grass" but it is
from the same root as the Sindarin "salab" which is glossed "herb" [SALAK(WE)].

   The -iel ending is the patronymic meaning "daughter of".

   "anáw" has no meaning whatsoever in either Quenya or Sindarin that I can find.
There is "aiwë" (small bird) and "anwa" (real, actual, true) but these are the
closest I can find.

   I think the name generator simply does a random search of letters and sticks
an appropriate gender ending to it. I would not use them, but would check the
name list at elvish.org/gwaith or go through Helge Fauskanger's Quenya-English
Wordlist for appropriate name elements.

   Since Bilyana simply means "herb" you might choose a plant name of some kind
and add one of the feminine patronymics, for instance Nénuwen "lady of the
yellow water lily" or Ariendë (Daisy).

   Arthur


Anáwiel <anawiel@...> wrote:
           I know, but I didn't mean to translate my actual name but the one the
generator gave me. I mean I am trying to find out what Anáwiel means
and how names are created in quenya. When an 'a' besomes long 'a' (or
'á') and what does this -iel suffix mean in names (Galadriel has it
also).
Sorry for the confusion, I am a bit bad at explaining :(






Utúlie'n Estel!

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Hi!

Please help, I'm creating a RPG (as I said once) and I need something
in order to learn Quenya (but not the late stages) for introducing
Elvish messages in my RPG. I've thought of the "Early Qenya Grammar"
(EQG) published in _Parma Eldalamberon_ 14 (IIRC). If anyone has it,
please send me an e-mail or a document file with the content. I'd be
very glad.

Cheers!

Olga

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Boccaccio <elhanan_austin@...>
wrote:
>
>   I think the name generator simply does a random search of letters
and sticks an appropriate gender ending to it.

Not necessarily.  I've traced quite a few names used in online gaming
and bad fan fiction to various name generators; some of them do have
meanings in pidgin Quenya or Sindarin or a mishmash of the two.
There's one name generator in particular that produces gems like It
Girl, Juicy, Powerful Vapor, and Big Feet--plus names that need no
translation, such as Puwen.  Somebody out there has a nasty sense of
humor.

Thank you very much for your help and for the links:)
I have still some questions, and would very appreciate if you can help
me.
Which are the best resources for learning Sindarin and Quenya? Can you
recommend some sites?

And, where can I find the rules and endings of creating sindarin and
quenya names? There is an appendix at the end of the Silmarillion but
it just explains the existing names.

Hi,
I have been trying to translate the following words, but I'm not sure if I'm
in the right way.


Happy Anniversary!
Q Alasse i atyenárenna Lit. 'Merriment at the anniversary day'

Happy Birthday!
Q Alasse merendenna i nostalyo Lit.'Merriment at the feast of your birth'
Q Alasse i nostanna Lit. 'Merriment at the bierhday'

Congratulations!
Q Laitier Lit. 'Praisings (gerund)'

Surprise!
Q nalantane horya Lit. 'Attacked suddenly'

/sincerely Cassa-Lelyaro

Thorsten Renk's website, Parma Tyelpelassiva, is probably your best bet. He has
courses for both Sindarin and Quenya that are good starter courses. Helge
Fauskanger's website at Ardalambion (sorry I don't have the links for these, but
just do a google-search and you should have no problems finding them), has a
more in-depth Quenya course, however, this is quite advanced and it helps if you
have some kind of background in linguistics, but the exercises at the end of
each chapter are very helpful. There are other sites I guess but most of them
are variations on a theme and very often are watered-down versions of either
Helge's work or Thorsten's. Both have had their courses translated into other
languages so you might find a version that is other than in English that will be
easier for you to work with.

   As for the name construction rules, etc.: you will not find them on some
website dedicated to such things, at least not to my knowledge. The "rules" for
name construction are implied based on the knowledge of the languages in
question. I, for instance, have written a short article for friends who are
interested in such things but it isn't anything official, just what I've noticed
about names in Tolkien's legendarium. I think if you study the languages
themselves you will find that you will recognize how names are put together, but
Tolkien never sat down and wrote the "rules" out.

   Hope this is of help.
   Arthur


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promenadeofthedeer <riverbeauty@...> wrote:
   I've traced quite a few names used in online gaming  and bad fan fiction to
various name generators; some of them do have  meanings in pidgin Quenya or
Sindarin or a mishmash of the two...

   Which just proves my point: whether they are randomly putting letters together
or just throwing Quenya and Sindarin word elements together to make a name, they
are very useless for anyone seriously looking for an Elvish name that is true to
Tolkien's world. They may be fine for RPGs where no one really cares, but
otherwise, why bother? *grin*

   Arthur


Utúlie'n Estel!

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