Tolkien's languages are my hobby. I use them primarily to create names for

stories.

Recently, I decided to go a step further and take an English phrase, translate

it to Sindarin,

and write it in Tengwar Sindarin. I am particularly concerned with accuracy this

time

around, so I joined this list hoping to find some help.



The phrase is "no fear." I belive it is "ú del" in Sindarin, but I wanted to

double check. Am I

translating it correctly?



The real difficulty is how to write it in Tengwar. My problem stems from the

diversity of

dictionaries available on the internet. I'm a big fan of Hesperides (the

Sindarin dictionary

for Apple OSX) since it provides the Tengwar as well as the Sindarin words.



I believe that Hesperides writes the English word in Tengwar instead of the

Sindarin word

in Tengwar, so I'm not sure if what I've done is correct. I've taken a

photograph of my

attempt at writing "ú del" in Tengwar and posted it on photobucket. If you

follow this link

<http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u65/etremain/TengwarNoFear.jpg> you will see

it. Would someone please be kind enough to take a look at my work and let me

know if I

am accurate?



Thank you very much for your time!



Namarié,



Emily

I'm also a novice, but why the "help letter" below the E? Drop it and put

the E above the L. Those "help letters" should only be used when there is no

letter following. Damn, I hate when I cannot find the english words for what

I mean... :(



Regarding the translation I cannot help though...



electronically yours, jesper

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----- Original Message -----

From: "e_tremain" <e_tremain@...>

To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:33 AM

Subject: [elfling] Novice Question





Tolkien's languages are my hobby. I use them primarily to create names for

stories.

Recently, I decided to go a step further and take an English phrase,

translate it to Sindarin,

and write it in Tengwar Sindarin. I am particularly concerned with accuracy

this time

around, so I joined this list hoping to find some help.



The phrase is "no fear." I belive it is "ú del" in Sindarin, but I wanted to

double check. Am I

translating it correctly?



The real difficulty is how to write it in Tengwar. My problem stems from the

diversity of

dictionaries available on the internet. I'm a big fan of Hesperides (the

Sindarin dictionary

for Apple OSX) since it provides the Tengwar as well as the Sindarin words.



I believe that Hesperides writes the English word in Tengwar instead of the

Sindarin word

in Tengwar, so I'm not sure if what I've done is correct. I've taken a

photograph of my

attempt at writing "ú del" in Tengwar and posted it on photobucket. If you

follow this link

<http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u65/etremain/TengwarNoFear.jpg> you will

see

it. Would someone please be kind enough to take a look at my work and let me

know if I

am accurate?



Thank you very much for your time!



Namarié,



Emily







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Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, <jesper@...> wrote:

>

> I'm also a novice, but why the "help letter" below the E? Drop it and put

> the E above the L. Those "help letters" should only be used when there is no

> letter following. Damn, I hate when I cannot find the english words for what

> I mean... :(





The term you are looking for is "carrier".  You are correct, though, as far as I

can tell.



Emily, as he stated you should remove the short carrier below the tehta (vowel)

for "e" and

place it over the tengwa (consonant) for "l".  In the Sindarin mode tengwar are

read with the

vowel sound in the tehta then the consonant tengwa below.  Quenya is just the

opposite

reading consonant (below) then vowel (above).  I am not entirely certain on the

words or

grammar in this case, and simply have a decent knowledge of the elvish writing

system.  Best

of luck in your efforts!



Namárië,

nakago

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "e_tremain" <e_tremain@...> wrote:



> The phrase is "no fear." I belive it is "ú del" in Sindarin, but I

wanted to double check.



I venture to doubt whether this translation would be right.

_ú-_ seems to be a prefix, reversing the meaning of a verb or noun.

It is not attested as a single element 'not', let alone as an

adjective 'no', which appears to be its function in the English

phrase.

A compound _**ú-dhel_ 'not-fear' (presumably with soft mutation)

would not make much sense, in my opinion.



If the meaning of the phrase is actually 'don't fear!', a translation

with _avo_ + verb might be an alternative solution.





Regards,

Erna

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:

>

> If the meaning of the phrase is actually 'don't fear!', a translation

> with _avo_ + verb might be an alternative solution.

>



However, if the meaning is adjectival rather than imperative, I'd

suggest using _pen-_ "without, lacking", though I'm not sure what

mutation that'd cause.



Regards,

M. Dinse

Upon looking into DRAGON FLAME/HESPERIDES, U is listed as either a

negative prefix OR as a PARTICLE.



Since e_tremain is using the Hersperides dictionary, she is correct

in her use of it as a particle. She also chose the simplest

translation in that source for "fear", DEL. She  was not, I think,

attempting to make a compound word but to structure a simple phrase.



If you are going to use AV-, it is an adverbial prefix

meaning "Don't!" that is used with imperative verbs. So, if it is an

imperative, like "No Worries!", use the Av- prefix as Erna suggests.

(p. 240, Appendix 2 "A Gateway To Sindarin")



Margaret/Anvanya







--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:

>

> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "e_tremain" <e_tremain@> wrote:

>

> > The phrase is "no fear." I belive it is "ú del" in Sindarin, but

I

> wanted to double check.

>

> I venture to doubt whether this translation would be right.

> _ú-_ seems to be a prefix, reversing the meaning of a verb or

noun.

> It is not attested as a single element 'not', let alone as an

> adjective 'no', which appears to be its function in the English

> phrase.

> A compound _**ú-dhel_ 'not-fear' (presumably with soft mutation)

> would not make much sense, in my opinion.

>

> If the meaning of the phrase is actually 'don't fear!', a

translation

> with _avo_ + verb might be an alternative solution.

>

>

> Regards,

> Erna

>

> Upon looking into DRAGON FLAME/HESPERIDES, U is listed as either a

> negative prefix OR as a PARTICLE.

>

> Since e_tremain is using the Hersperides dictionary, she is correct

> in her use of it as a particle.



May I kindly remind you that I consider it rather irrelevant what a

dictionary/website/book lists as valid form as long as you cannot point me

to this form in Tolkien's writings? Dragon Flame lists a fair share of

conjectured forms, roots and adaptions - which makes it useful for

Neo-Sindarin usage, but doesn't make it absolute truth.



Maybe I have missed the sentence in which Tolkien uses _ú_ as 'not' -

until I see it, I'll hold to my statements, and I'd ask you not to declare

anything 'correct' based on a secondary source ;-)



* Thorsten

Hope I can help



> The phrase is "no fear." I belive it is "ú del" in Sindarin, but I

>wanted to double check. Am I

> translating it correctly?



About the use of _ú_ : if Thorsten Renk don't mind me quoting what he

said in Elfling message n°33818 :



>_ú_ as a single element 'not' isn't actually attested in Sindarin,

>it is known as a verbal negation prefix _ú-chebin_ 'I have not kept'

>or 'I cannot keep' or as a noun prefix with a morally negative

>connotation, cf. _úgerth_ 'sins' (VT44:21) or with the sense

>of 'without', cf._uluithiad_ 'unquenchable, without quenching'

>(SD:62).



Would it work to say "no fear" ? You judge ;) I think a point against

it is that _ú_ always seems to be a prefix, and is never attested as

an independent word. If we use it as we know we can, it could

mean "fearless" more than "no fear".



In any case, I suppose _del_ should be lenited because of the prefix.

Therefore giving *ú dhel or *údhel



About the tengwar, there is an other list dedicated to this matter.

But indeed, you should write the e tehta above the l tengwa, AFAIK.



Faenglor

Hi Emily,

You can download DRAGON FLAME freeware from the internet. The

dictionary has both Engish and Sindarin words, and a recent addition

shows the Tengwar spelling in Sindarin at the bottom of the window.

I find it helpful especially because I do not always remember when

to use the carrier verticals for the vowels, and this shows them

correctly used.



Margaret/Anvanya





--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "e_tremain" <e_tremain@...> wrote:

>

> Tolkien's languages are my hobby. I use them primarily to create

names for stories.

> Recently, I decided to go a step further and take an English

phrase, translate it to Sindarin,

> and write it in Tengwar Sindarin. I am particularly concerned with

accuracy this time

> around, so I joined this list hoping to find some help.

>

> The phrase is "no fear." I belive it is "ú del" in Sindarin, but I

wanted to double check. Am I

> translating it correctly?

>

> The real difficulty is how to write it in Tengwar. My problem

stems from the diversity of

> dictionaries available on the internet. I'm a big fan of

Hesperides (the Sindarin dictionary

> for Apple OSX) since it provides the Tengwar as well as the

Sindarin words.

>

> I believe that Hesperides writes the English word in Tengwar

instead of the Sindarin word

> in Tengwar, so I'm not sure if what I've done is correct. I've

taken a photograph of my

> attempt at writing "ú del" in Tengwar and posted it on

photobucket. If you follow this link

>

<http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u65/etremain/TengwarNoFear.jpg>

you will see

> it. Would someone please be kind enough to take a look at my work

and let me know if I

> am accurate?

>

> Thank you very much for your time!

>

> Namarié,

>

> Emily

>