Can someone please help?  I am looking for a short prayer in Sindarin  (with
a translation, if possible) to put on a card for a dear friend in the
hospital.  It would mean so much.  Thank you.

Blessings,
Dianna


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trilogy wrote:

> Can someone please help? I am looking for a short prayer in Sindarin (with
a translation, if possible) to put on a card for a dear friend in the
hospital. It would mean so much. Thank you.

My own father is in hospital, so I can sympathize... Something about _nestad_ or
"healing", perhaps? _Aníron le nestad ah oer vaer_ "I wish for you healing and
good days"? Or should it be an actual prayer to a deity?

- HKF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You might find something here- http://www.geocities
com/petristikka/elvish/index2.html

Hope you friend gets better soon.

Anne

-------Original Message-------

From: trilogy9@...
Date: 01/19/07 13:55:37
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [elfling] Sindarin prayer & translation



Can someone please help? I am looking for a short prayer in Sindarin (with
a translation, if possible) to put on a card for a dear friend in the
hospital. It would mean so much. Thank you.

Blessings,
Dianna

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

After some break, a bit more discussion:


(2)

_Tangado haid! Leithio i philinn!_
translated as
'Hold [your] positions! Fire the arrows!'

I have no comments on that one.

***

(3)

_Frodo, im Arwen. Telin le thaed. Lasto beth nĂźn, tolo dan nan galad._
translated as
   'I am Arwen - I've come to help you. Hear my voice... Come back to the
light.' [lit. 'Frodo, I [am] Arwen. I come to help you. Listen to my word,
come back to [the] light.']

Tolkien's earlier ideas certainly had _im_ = 'I', although for those who
always go with Tolkien's latest decision there has been a
re-interpretation of _im_ as a general reflexive in VT47, thus _im Arwen_
would rather be 'Arwen herself', i.e. 'the famous Arwen'.

I have no clue what the suggested derivation from _thaed_ is supposed to
be (maybe David can elaborate)? Gwaith lists "derivative of *STA- 'help'"
as the source - even if I accept that, should I go for _*tha-_ as a stem
verb, i.e. _?tha-in > ?thaen_ 'I help' with a gerund _?thaed_? That seems
weird to me, especially _tha-_ would be find as a root-A-verb (examples of
which I have discussed in  #32599), so why not _*thad_? In any case, I
don't have an interpretation of the form which makes sense to me, so I'll
pose that as a question.

As to _tolo dan_, this is one of the points which David doesn't want to
discuss about, but I'll state nevertheless that it seems more plausible to
me that Tolkien would have expressed 'back' in 'come back' with a verb
prefix, such as _ad-_ in _aderthad_ 're-uniting'. But I don't know that of
course.

Clearly, the last phrase is expressing purpose. We don't have an example
of this construction in Sindarin, but in Quenya we know form _enyalien_
'for recalling' in Cirion's Oath that a gerund in dative is used for this
purpose. The most likely Sindarin equivalent would be _an_ + gerund, but
we don't know for sure.

***

(4)


Aragorn: _Dartho guin Beriain. Rych le ad tolthathon._
Arwen: _Hon mabathon. Rochon ellint im._
Aragorn: _Andelu i ven._
...
Arwen: _Frodo fßr. Ae athradon i hßr, tûr gwaith nßn beriatha hon._
Aragorn: _Be iest lĂźn._


Aragorn: 'Stay with the Hobbits - I will send horses for you.'
Arwen: 'I'm the faster rider - I'll take him.' [lit. 'I will take him. I
am the swifter rider.'
Arwen: 'The road is too dangerous' [lit. 'The road [is] very dangerous.'
...
Arwen: 'If I can get accross the river  the power of my people will
protect him.' [lit. 'Frodo dies. If I get across the river, [the] power of
my people will protect him.'
Aragorn: 'According to your wish' [no subtitle given]


Quoting myself for reference to discuss _*guin_

"As for _?go_, the element is mentioned as derived from WO in WJ:367.
However, there you find as derivative of WO: "In the prefix _gwa-, go-_
'together, co-, com-" In the following paragraph, only ever the prefix is
mentioned. We learn that in Quenya the element did not yield an
independent word. For other primitive elements in the same essay, derived
prefixes *and* prepositions are mentioned. The reader of Quendi and Eldar
does get the impression that _go-_ is meant to be a prefix only, not a
preposition. So, do we need an 'innovation' that seems to go against
Tolkien's intentions?"

There are numerous occurrences of an intensifying prefix, formerly thought
to be _*an-_. As we know now,cf.
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/intensification.html
the actual pattern Tolkien had in mind is quite a bit more complex: "The
prefix a- was usually combined with dynamic lengthening of the original
initial consonant (...) and it could be applied to fully formed words."
(VT45:5). However, in all cases here the results would come out the same,
so this is more a critique of the annotations made by gwaith.

_ae_ was already touched in (1).

_tûr_ literally translates 'mastery, victory', so it involves a certain
leap to insert it here.

_be iest lĂźn_ is, actually, a construction I like very much


***

Again, please feel free to add and discuss.

* Thorsten

>_be iest lĂźn_ is, actually, a construction I like very much

I'd prefer 'sui iest liin', but sui was not known back then

>  >_be iest lĂźn_ is, actually, a construction I like very much
>
> I'd prefer 'sui iest liin', but sui was not known back then
>

One wonders why - _be_ in the original context _ben genediad Drannail_ 'in
the Shire-reckoning' seems to imply lit. '*according to Shire reckoning'.
On the other hand, _sui sui mĂ­n i gohenam_ takes up two similar things
(forgiveness) - '*forgive us *just like* we forgive those who sinned
against us'.

Now, '[I'll do it] according to your will' makes perfect sense to me - but
I'm missing the element of comparison. If the sentence would be 'Your hand
is like your will' then I'd use _sui_ as 'hand' and 'will' are linked in a
comparison.

So, I'd go as far as saying that _sui_ would appear wrong to me here.

* Thorsten

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
[snip]
> I have no clue what the suggested derivation from _thaed_ is
supposed to
> be (maybe David can elaborate)? Gwaith lists "derivative of *STA-
'help'"
> as the source - even if I accept that, should I go for _*tha-_ as a
stem
> verb, i.e. _?tha-in > ?thaen_ 'I help' with a gerund _?thaed_? That
seems
> weird to me, especially _tha-_ would be find as a root-A-verb
(examples of
> which I have discussed in  #32599), so why not _*thad_? In any case, I
> don't have an interpretation of the form which makes sense to me, so
I'll
> pose that as a question.
[snip]

I can't comment on the conjugation or the underlying reasoning for it,
but notice that the root *STA- is probably derived from _-stámo_,
_-star_ "helper", and Qe. _-sáro_ (-thârô) "saviour".

-M. Dinse

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
> After some break, a bit more discussion:

>_Frodo, im Arwen._

I wonder why Arwen is naming Frodo in Common Speech here. We are
explicitly told that the Eldar 'felt it absurd and distasteful to call
living persons who spoke Sindarin in daily life [i.e. the Noldor] by
names in quite a different linguistic mode [i.e. in Quenya].' (PM:341)
This is mentioned in the context of the translation of the Noldor's
Quenya names into Sindarin, but the point is that the Eldar apparently
disliked a mixture of different languges.
And the Sindarin form of 'Frodo' is even twice attested in the corpus:

_Daur a Berhael, Conin en Annûn_ 'Frodo and Sam, princes of the west'
on the field of Cormallen (also Let:308)
_Iorhael, Gelir, Cordof, ar Baravorn, ionnath dĂźn_ 'Frodo, Merry,
Pippin and Hamfast, his sons' (SD:128-129)

The first phrase was published in the LotR, while Aragoron's letter is
at least associated with a version of the epilogue.


> _Frodo fĂźr._

Here I wonder why Frodo is dying from a natural cause, since this is
what a derivative of the stem PHIR- would imply (LR:381; also PHIRI-
'exhale, expire, breathe out' (WJ:387)) - he was wounded by a sword,
after all.
The only case I recall where a derivative of this root is used
differently is the Q. line _cålë fifírula_  'the light fading' from
_Markirya_ (MC:213).
But one has to note that the light is fading or expiring by a natural
cause in this context - it's 'the last evening'.


RR.

Hello, I'm a newbie.  Have a little experience of elvish but not as
much as u guys!

This is a quick simple question that will probably make me sound
stupid, but I'm a little confused from all the information out there!

My name is Nikki and i've written it in the tengwar using the English
mode with the tehtar following the consonant.  I've done this because
as far as I know its an English name and theres no equivalent in
Quenya, unless u use Nicola and Nicole, but it wouldnt be the same.

Does this sound right to people, or should i write Nikki in the
Quenya mode with the tehtar on the preceeding consonant? Or should I
only use this when I have a correct Quenya version of my name?

Hope that makes sense to people, would be wonderful if you could
help!  I know either way people will understand, I would just like to
clarify!

Thanks :-)

Nikki

(5)

_Ingon i athrad dammen beriathar aen._
'I guess the ford will be held against us'

This again involves _aen_ as passive marker, for the discussion see (1).

_beria-_ is 'to protect'. One wonders if the Nazgul were worried that the
Hobbits would try to harm the bridge, so they saw the need to protect it.
In my opinion, _tir-_ with the possible translation 'to watch' and
connotations to 'to guard', cf. _Minas Tirith_ 'tower of guard' would have
been a better choice.


***

(6)

'Noro lim, Asfaloth, noro lim!'
'Ride fast, Asfaloth, ride fast!'

Well, that one is by Tolkien.

***

(7)

_NĂźn o Chithaeglir
lasto beth daer;
Rimmo nĂźn Bruinen
dan in Ulaer!_

'Waters of the Misty Mountains
listen to the great word;
flow waters of Loudwater
against the Ringwraiths!'


I don't have any comments on that one. While involving some
reconstructions, I think it's quite nice.

***

(8)

_Frodo, lasto beth nĂźn, tolo dan nan galad_
'Frodo, hear my voice, come back to [the] light.'

See (3) and comments by Roman.

***

(9)

_Anirne hene beriad i chĂȘn lĂźn. Ned Imladris nauthant e le beriathar aen._
'She wanted to protect her child. She thought in Rivendell you would be
safe.'


While it is obvious that _lĂźn_ cannot possibly mean 'her', it is
remarkable that the error got reproduced quite often, cf.

http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/elvish/fotr.html
http://groups.msn.com/IntheLandofMordorwheretheShadowslie/fotrmovieelvish.msnw
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/tengwar.html?tengwar_fr.html

On the other hand

http://www.council-of-elrond.com/fotrse.html
http://www.stupidring.com/fotrscript/script_sped_normal.htm

actually corrected it.

As David told us, the first sentence should rather have been:
_AnĂ­ra hene beriad i chen Ă­n_

That seems to be in present tense, so I wonder why, as Gilraen clearly is
in no position to protect her child any more.

As for _ned_, cf. (1).

_nauthant e_ sounds a bit of an odd choice to me, maybe it's based on _le
linnon im TinĂșviel_, although since we don't know the translation, we
don't know what the idea behind it actually is.

Comments and discussion welcome,

* Thorsten

A touching short poem by James Joyce, sung poignantly by Syd Barrett. Also
posted on Aglardh. All comments welcome.

----

Lean out of the window,
Goldenhair,
I heard you singing
A merry air.

My book was closed;
I read no more,
Watching the fire dance
On the floor.

I have left my book,
I have left my room,
For I heard you singing
Through the gloom.

Singing and singing
A merry air,
Lean out the window,
Goldenhair.

----

A cúna ter i hyelle
Laurifin
Hlarnenyel alira
Alasselin

Parmanya pahta
Telyanenye
Tíran i nári
Talamesse

Hehtanen i parma
Sambenyaye
An hlarnenyel alira
Ter i lóme

Alira alira
Alasselin
A cúna ter i hyelle
Laurifin

----

*alasselin: 'a merry tune'
*hyelle: by extension 'window'


Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
Tolkien Wiktionary - http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk





________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html

Firstly, I'm principally interested in translating English into Quenya
(or Sindarin), so do folks here think my posts should be on the
'quenya' Yahoo-group, or here?

Secondly, I've seen on a number of websites the opinion that Ruth
Noel's book is not recommended for learning the language/s and
vocabularies, but can someone suggest a website or affordable text
(unfortunately, I can't afford David Salo's book) that is closer to
Tolkien's intent?

(I think people have mentioned on various websites that there's useful
material in volumes of HoME, but which are the relevent ones?)

Thanks for any advice,
Miranduviel

>My name is Nikki and i've written it in the tengwar using the English
>mode with the tehtar following the consonant. I've done this because
>as far as I know its an English name and theres no equivalent in
>Quenya, unless u use Nicola and Nicole, but it wouldnt be the same.
>
>Does this sound right to people, or should i write Nikki in the
>Quenya mode with the tehtar on the preceeding consonant? Or should I
>only use this when I have a correct Quenya version of my name?

I think it is perfectly allright to use the English tengwar mode to write
supposedly English names ;-)

You shouldn't use the Quenya mode to write it; as its name tells us, it's
designed for Quenya and should be used to write only Quenya (though like all
tengwar modes, it can be adapted (with a certain amount of personnal taste in
it) to other languages). So yes, you should use Quenya mode only if you had a
"correct" Quenya version, whatever "correct" can mean here.

Faenglor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello and welcome Nikki,

I suggest you ask this question on elfscript, where expertise on
tengwar and modes is regularly discussed.

But, if by "English mode with the tehtar following the consonant" you
mean "... with vowels expressed as tehtar on the following
consonant", which you seem to do, for you oppose it to a "Quenya mode
with the tehtar on the preceeding consonant", then you are doing what
I would do, and what I think most people (here or) on elfscript would
do. Using Quenya mode for non-Quenya words is not recommended, not so
much because of the placing of the tehtar, but because of the rather
specific way that mode uses tengwar to write certain consonant
combinations frequent in Quenya, with the result that no tengwar are
available for many common consonants present in other languages, as
e.g. English.

Hope to be of help,

Mithrennaith (Harm J. Schelhaas)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "littlehobbitfriend"
<littlehobbitfriend@...> wrote:
>
> .....
>
> My name is Nikki and i've written it in the tengwar using the
English
> mode with the tehtar following the consonant.  I've done this
because
> as far as I know its an English name and theres no equivalent in
> Quenya, unless u use Nicola and Nicole, but it wouldnt be the same.
>
> Does this sound right to people, or should i write Nikki in the
> Quenya mode with the tehtar on the preceeding consonant? Or should
I
> only use this when I have a correct Quenya version of my name?
>
> Hope that makes sense to people, would be wonderful if you could
> help!  I know either way people will understand, I would just like
to
> clarify!
>
> Thanks :-)
>
> Nikki
>

My humble oppinion is that if you have to write a small non-Elvish word,
it doesn't relaly matter which

O/H littlehobbitfriend Î­ÎłÏÎ±ÏˆÎ”:
>
> Hello, I'm a newbie. Have a little experience of elvish but not as
> much as u guys!
>
> This is a quick simple question that will probably make me sound
> stupid, but I'm a little confused from all the information out there!
>
> My name is Nikki and i've written it in the tengwar using the English
> mode with the tehtar following the consonant. I've done this because
> as far as I know its an English name and theres no equivalent in
> Quenya, unless u use Nicola and Nicole, but it wouldnt be the same.
>
> Does this sound right to people, or should i write Nikki in the
> Quenya mode with the tehtar on the preceeding consonant? Or should I
> only use this when I have a correct Quenya version of my name?
>
> Hope that makes sense to people, would be wonderful if you could
> help! I know either way people will understand, I would just like to
> clarify!
>
> Thanks :-)
>
> Nikki
>
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "S. M. Wand" <smkwandr@...> wrote:
> Secondly, I've seen on a number of websites the opinion that Ruth
> Noel's book is not recommended for learning the language/s and
> vocabularies, but can someone suggest a website or affordable text
> (unfortunately, I can't afford David Salo's book) that is closer to
> Tolkien's intent?

Try Googling Parma Tyelpelassiva.

> (I think people have mentioned on various websites that there's useful
> material in volumes of HoME, but which are the relevent ones?)

They're all helpful in some way, but the Etymologies in The Lost Road
have lots of Qenya and Noldorin entries, but even more useful for
Quenya and Sindarin would (IMO) be the essay "Quendi and Eldar" in War
of the Jewels, if I had to pick one volume of HoME to recommend.

- M. Dinse

> My humble oppinion is that if you have to write a small non-Elvish word,
> it doesn't relaly matter which

Right, excet for the small fact that that Quenya doesn't have e.g. any
word beginning with a _b-_ or a single _-b-_ somewhere inbetween, so
_umbar_ which is used in the General Mode or in the Beleriand Mode for _b_
is defined as _-mb-_ in Quenya (which is all you need to write any Quenya
word with _-b-_ in it), with the result that you can't write 'basket' in a
Quenya mode.

So only if the lack of a few consonants doesn't really bother you it
doesn't matter ;-)

* Thorsten

Thank you both for the replies!

Lots of help, thanx :-)

Nikki

Test, please ignore

O/H S. M. Wand Î­ÎłÏÎ±ÏˆÎ”:
>
> Firstly, I'm principally interested in translating English into Quenya
> (or Sindarin), so do folks here think my posts should be on the
> 'quenya' Yahoo-group, or here?
>



Quenya group is supposdly created for communicating in that language (as
possible as it would be) but AFAIK and IIRC, it was never very alive.
This groups is fine for your quest


>
> Secondly, I've seen on a number of websites the opinion that Ruth
> Noel's book is not recommended for learning the language/s and
> vocabularies, but can someone suggest a website or affordable text
> (unfortunately, I can't afford David Salo's book) that is closer to
> Tolkien's intent?
>






You can study the languages from other online resources, and also look
for the zine Vinyar Tengwar, although this is not intented to help
someone 'learn' the languages
>
>

I've been following all the discussions on the film dialogues and related
matters with great interest - especially Bill's comments, and have done as he
suggested and read Carl's essay.
To add to all this, I'd like to share my own experience.   I started out as most
people do, trying to translate various English texts into Quenya, and very soon
found that this is, in general, a very frustrating exercise full of pitfalls and
chasms caused by the lack of the necessary vocabulary and some grammar.
During Christmas two years ago I started to draw a map of an imaginary country /
world of my own (for the artistic pleasure as much as anything else).  I then
realised that I could people it and write about it, specifically tailoring what
I wrote to what we do have, and specifically, to what I knew I could do.  To
this end I first made subject lists of vocabulary, and verb lists etc.
I have written quite long descriptions and stories with conversation etc. in  - 
BUT  -  and this is my point, if I find that we don't know how to say something
because of a lack of grammar or vocabulary, I am free to simply change the story
or the conversation!  Of course it is inevitable that my world has many
similarities to Middle Earth, but that comes with the territory; the language we
have was created for that, and IMHO is best used in that way.  Another advantage
of creating my own world, is that no one can turn round and tell me that
Dwarves, or Elves or Men wouldn't do that, or say that  -  in my world they say
what I want them to say!
I don't know whether Carl would feel that this is a more acceptable way of using
our knowledge, but it is certainly much less frustrating, and the end results
are proving to be quite exciting and give a huge sense of achievement.
I'd be interested to know if anyone else has come at it from this angle, and
also to know what you think of my approach to the use of Quenya.  (I've tried to
put some of my writing into Sindarin, but because I'm back in the translating
'trap' I have to adjust the story line considerably - I don't think it would
really work even if I wrote something quite different about yet another world in
Sindarin so that I wasn't trying to translate, the vocabulary is just too
small.)
Comments and thoughts are very welcome,

and a belated Happy New Year to you all,

Susan Frances  ~  Tuilinde

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Okay, I have looked at a lot of the websites that try and help people
translate english to sindarin but I got to be honest, I am having
difficulty putting it all together.  I want to get a tattoo of my
kid's names, birth dates, and a personal saying so that it is three
bands around my arm.  I know the words I am looking for just can't
get them together, nor put into the script.  I also can't figure out
how I would get their names translated as they are not traditional
names.  Can someone please help me?  Here is what I would like:
Names:Jenna, Andreus, Jamal, Markehl  (Maybe I just have to spell
them out, but some of the combinations I can't find)
Dates:2-13-71, 9-11-91, 3-22-93, 1-20-95
Personal saying: With the spirit of fire, courage and love will bring
you victory.

If you hadn't figured it out, I am the spirit of fire, my oldest is
courage, my middle child is love, and my youngest is victory!

I have found that I am feanaro, courage is huore, love is melme, and
victory is apaire.

What I can't figure out for this part is how to put it together with
all the other words.

Someone please help me out.  I am so bug eyed by now I am afraid I am
missing a huge piece.!!!!!

Thanks...apparently the chronically stupid tonight!  LOL

When I write odd words (for example swedish) with tengwar letters I use the
sounds, not the equivalent letters. Like "J" in my name which in swedish is
pronounced like the english "Y" of "you".
I think you should spell out your kids name like that. Search for the
sounds, not the letters.

Regarding the dates I think it'll get harder. Maybe "February Thirteen" is
good enough, skipping the years...?

electronically yours, jesper
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se

Order your own copy of the Machinepop/Imiafan
split-EP at www.electronic-obsession.se/label.asp

"Folk med riktiga skivsamlingar har riktiga spelare" (Daniel Araya)

----- Original Message -----
From: "feanaro13" <feanaro13@...>
To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:15 PM
Subject: [elfling] Newbie, need HELP


> Okay, I have looked at a lot of the websites that try and help people
> translate english to sindarin but I got to be honest, I am having
> difficulty putting it all together.  I want to get a tattoo of my
> kid's names, birth dates, and a personal saying so that it is three
> bands around my arm.  I know the words I am looking for just can't
> get them together, nor put into the script.  I also can't figure out
> how I would get their names translated as they are not traditional
> names.  Can someone please help me?  Here is what I would like:
> Names:Jenna, Andreus, Jamal, Markehl  (Maybe I just have to spell
> them out, but some of the combinations I can't find)
> Dates:2-13-71, 9-11-91, 3-22-93, 1-20-95
> Personal saying: With the spirit of fire, courage and love will bring
> you victory.
>
> If you hadn't figured it out, I am the spirit of fire, my oldest is
> courage, my middle child is love, and my youngest is victory!
>
> I have found that I am feanaro, courage is huore, love is melme, and
> victory is apaire.
>
> What I can't figure out for this part is how to put it together with
> all the other words.
>
> Someone please help me out.  I am so bug eyed by now I am afraid I am
> missing a huge piece.!!!!!
>
> Thanks...apparently the chronically stupid tonight!  LOL
>
>
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

(10)

Arwen: _A si i-DhĂșath Ăș-orthor, Aragorn._
Arwen: _Ú or le a Ăș or nin._
...
Arwen: _Renich i lĂș i erui govannem?_
Aragorn: _Nauthannen i ned ĂŽl reniannen._
Arwen: _Gwenwin in enninath..._
Arwen: _Ú-'arnech in naeth i si celich._
Arwen: _Renich i beth i pennen?_

Arwen: 'The Shadow does not hold sway yet' [Lit. 'Till now the Shadow not
masters, Aragorn.']
Arwen: 'Not over you and not over me.'
...
Arwen: 'Do you remember the time when we first met?'
Aragorn: 'I thought I had strayed into a dream'
Arwen: 'Long years have passed...'
Arwen: 'You did not have the cares you carry now.'
Arwen: 'Do you remember the word I told you?'


Most writers assume that _an si > as si_ rather than _a si_, however no
example is attested either way.

The second sentence sounds somewhat... clumsy. I cannot imagine Tolkien
writing it, but feel free to disagree.

_Ăș_ as a single element 'not' isn't actually attested in Sindarin, it is
known as a verbal negation prefix _Ăș-chebin_ 'I have not kept' or 'I
cannot keep' or as a noun prefix with a morally negative connotation, cf.
_Ășgerth_ 'sins' (VT44:21) or with the sense of 'without', cf. _uluithiad_
'unquenchable, without quenching' (SD:62). Indeed, isolated _Ăș_ in Quenya
is attested as preposition 'without' (VT39:14). Given all that, it seems
not likely to me that the element did ever exist in Tolkien's concept with
the meaning 'not'.

According to the theory laid out in David's book, _a_ 'and' should become
_ah_ before a vowel, cf. also _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ (MR:303).

The second sentence doesn't have a verb and is obviously the continuation
of the first one. The combination is good for a rather interesting mistake
- while the first part is not the literal translation of the English text,
the second part is (and therefore doesn't fit the first part in Sindarin).
To make this more clear: 'not *over* you' is the correct continuation of
'The shadow does not hold sway yet' but not of 'The shadow does not
conquer yet' - the continuation to the actual Sindarin phrase should be
'not me and not you, i.e. _or_ should be removed (it is already part of
_orthor-_ in the first sentence anyway).

The distinction of ER (denoting a single) and MIN (denoting the first of a
series) is very old and persistent in Tolkien's conception - see
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/numerals.html
and references therein.
Arwen's choice of _erui_ would therefore seem rather odd, as she clearly
refers to the first of a series.

I don't know if _i_ can be used as a relative pronoun '[the time] when' -
_ir_ based on Quenya _Ă­re_ and seen in Luthien's Song would seem a more
likely candidate.

Likewise, the usage of _i_ as 'that' in '[thought] (that) [I had
strayed...]' is not attested in Sindarin.

I don't know what the suggested derivation of _?gwenwin_, pres. with
singular _?gwanwen_ should be. The closest I get is _gwanu, gwanw_ with
addition of an adjectival ending _-en_, but _gwanw_ is 'death, act of
dying'. Maybe it is coined after _vanwa nĂĄ Valimar_ 'lost is Valinor', but
then, things in sindarin do not necessarily always mean the same as in
Quenya.

_garo_ 'to hold, to posses' has the attested past tense _garant_, a past
tense _?garn_ is not attested, cf.
http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/articles/Hostetter/noldpat.phtml


More comments welcome!

* Thorsten

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:

>(10)

>Most writers assume that _an si > as si_ rather than _a si_, however no
>example is attested either way.

Perhaps one could count it as a case similar to _ed_, which "retains
its consonant in the form _ed_ before vowels, but loses it before
consonants, though _es, ef, eth_ are often found before _s, f, th_."
(WJ:367)

>Arwen's choice of _erui_ would therefore seem rather odd, as she
>clearly refers to the first of a series.

The more so as Tolkien clearly tells us:

"_Erui_
Though this was the first of the Rivers of Gondor it cannot be used
for 'first'. In Eldarin _er_ was not used in counting series: it meant
'one, single, alone'." (VT42:10)


RR.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
>
[snip]
> Arwen: _Gwenwin in enninath..._
[snip]
> Arwen: 'Long years have passed...'
[snip]
> I don't know what the suggested derivation of _?gwenwin_, pres. with
> singular _?gwanwen_ should be. The closest I get is _gwanu, gwanw_
> with addition of an adjectival ending _-en_, but _gwanw_ is 'death,
> act of dying'. Maybe it is coined after _vanwa nĂĄ Valimar_ 'lost is
> Valinor', but then, things in sindarin do not necessarily always
mean > the same as in Quenya.
[snip]
>

It seems to me that this is a past participial form inspired by the
passage "These were also called by the Sindarin _Gwanwen_, pl.
_Gwenwin_  (or _Gwanwel_, pl. _Gwenwil_) 'the departed', cf. Q
_vanwa_" from Quendi & Eldar. This (for me) raises the question of why
David uses _gwanwen/gwenwin_ here (though correctly, I think), when
his suggested conjugations on Helge's site lists _?gwannen/?gwennin_
for the sg. & pl. pa.p.; is _?gwannen_ to be taken as Helge's
construction instead, i.e. does David use _gwanwen/gwenwin_ for pa.p.
of _gwanna-_ in "Gateway to Sindarin"? I have yet to get it.

Regards,
M. Dinse

Roman wondered why Arwen was speaking to Frodo by that name and  not either of
the versions of his name found in the Cormallen Praise, or in the King's letter.
I think in this situation we have to take seriously the fact that this was
written for a film to be seen by those who weren't readers of the books.  Pause
for a moment and think what those names would have done to the uninstructed
audience.
Peter had, on many occasions, to trim what could be used for his audience -
which is why, for instance he didn't use Elladan and Elrohir, as it would have
taken even more film time to explain who they were.
So I think that we have two situations here - the best dialogue FOR THE FILM AS
IT WAS; and the best dialogue anyone could have written FOR THE INSTRUCTED AND
KNOWLEDGEABLE,  WHO HAVE STUDIED SINDARIN.
I think both are very worth while exploring and discussing, but we must be wary
of blaming David for something which comes with the process of filmmaking, and
which he could have had no control over.
I'm finding the whole discussion very helpful and stimulating - thank you
Thorsten for suggesting it!

All the best

Susan Frances  ~  Tuilinde

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, <jesper@...> wrote:
>
> When I write odd words (for example swedish) with tengwar letters I use the
> sounds, not the equivalent letters. Like "J" in my name which in swedish is
> pronounced like the english "Y" of "you".
> I think you should spell out your kids name like that. Search for the
> sounds, not the letters.

While I am no expert, and I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, just
transliterating into an elvish mode (in this case sindarin) of tengwar, I do not
think would
be acceptable.  There is clearly an english mode of writing tengwar and given
the
situation, I think it would be better suited to the task.  The only other option
I could
potentially come up with to leave it in sindarin mode is to actually translate
the name's
exact meaning into elvish.  This, of course would leave a bit to be desired as
of anything
sounding "fluid" because it would most likely be similar repeats in the
"personal saying"
that feanaro was describing.  In such a case I think it would seem less like
names and
more like random words, hence my leaning toward the english mode of writing. 
This
would, of course, result in the names being pronounced the same way they are in
English,
just written in a different script.  But like I said, I am no expert.

Best wishes,

nakago

Actually, I believe that _gwanwen_ is actually an adjectival formation,
i.e. '(something) lost', and the sentence in question is actually to be
translated *'gone/lost (are) the years'. That construction is quite
common in some languages especially in Hebrew. (i.e. where adjective
precede the noun, I do not the linguistic term for those constructions).

Is that plausible?

Noam.

> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, <jesper@...> wrote:
>>
>> When I write odd words (for example swedish) with tengwar letters I use
>> the
>> sounds, not the equivalent letters. Like "J" in my name which in swedish
>> is
>> pronounced like the english "Y" of "you".
>> I think you should spell out your kids name like that. Search for the
>> sounds, not the letters.

nakago:
> While I am no expert, and I may be misunderstanding what you are saying,
> just
> transliterating into an elvish mode (in this case sindarin) of tengwar, I
> do not think would
> be acceptable.  There is clearly an english mode of writing tengwar and
> given the
> situation, I think it would be better suited to the task.  The only other
> option I could
> potentially come up with to leave it in sindarin mode is to actually
> translate the name's
> exact meaning into elvish.  This, of course would leave a bit to be
> desired as of anything
> sounding "fluid" because it would most likely be similar repeats in the
> "personal saying"
> that feanaro was describing.  In such a case I think it would seem less
> like names and
> more like random words, hence my leaning toward the english mode of
> writing.  This
> would, of course, result in the names being pronounced the same way they
> are in English,
> just written in a different script.  But like I said, I am no expert.

I think we meant the same. I dislike trying to translate a person's name
into sindarin and then writing _that_ with tengwar. Writing english with
tengwar is OK since Tolkien was english. But trying to write for example my
name in "english tengwar" would be a bad idea since it shouldn't be
pronounced that was...
Jesper is a nordic (Tolkien would've said norse but it's basically the same)
name most common in Denmark. I'm swedish and when I visit the UK or US etc
people pronouce my name with a "dj-" sound first. In the nordic countries
the "J-sound" is exactly the same as the "Y" in words like "yes", "youth",
"you" etc.
That's my point. Sometimes you have to bend the rules to get it right. I can
spell my name in "english tengwar", but I write it Yesper so that the
pronounciation gets correct.
I'm no expert either, just trying to make a clearer statement of my primary
statement! :)

namarië
electronically yours, jesper
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