First, thanks to Alex Bolton to answering my first query regarding Quenya.



I now have a new question that arose when I was reading lesson 4 of

Helge's Quenya course. He said that the title _Parma Eldalamberon_ is

now seen as a mistake since "the title incorporates **_lamber_ as the

presumed plural of _lambë_ "tongue, language", while we now know that

the correct plural must be _lambi_. Though the error was early

suspected and is now recognized by everyone [...]" (I have added

underbars around the Quenya words).



However, later in that paragraph he states that Tolkien (in PM) gives

the plural of _Ingwë_ as _Ingwi_ "as we would expect", though the

Vanyar  "called themselves _Ingwer_, so perhaps this reflects a

special Vanyarin usage?" Combined with a phrase _Ingwe Ingweron_ I

found in Helge's Quenya wordlist _Ingwe Ingweron_ "chief of the

chieftains", a name for Ingwë among the Vanyar, it seems to me that

furthermore, in Vanyarin Quenya the gen. pl. is -ron regardless of

whether the noun ends in -e.



So, could I be correct in suggesting that perhaps the title _Parma

Eldalamberon_ for the journal could be correct, albeit in Vanyarin

Quenya? Or are there some flaws in my logic or citations here?



- M. Dinse

> First, thanks to Alex Bolton to answering my first query regarding

Quenya.



Glad I could help. :)



> However, later in that paragraph he states that Tolkien (in PM) gives

> the plural of _Ingwë_ as _Ingwi_ "as we would expect", though the

> Vanyar  "called themselves _Ingwer_, so perhaps this reflects a

> special Vanyarin usage?" Combined with a phrase _Ingwe Ingweron_ I

> found in Helge's Quenya wordlist _Ingwe Ingweron_ "chief of the

> chieftains", a name for Ingwë among the Vanyar, it seems to me that

> furthermore, in Vanyarin Quenya the gen. pl. is -ron regardless of

> whether the noun ends in -e.



Checking my copy of XII:340 I expected there to be an editorial note

concerning this. There was not. It seems _Ing-_ is from Q. _inga_

'top, highest point'. And _-wë_ survives in Q. as a final element in

names from EVE 'person'. My first thought was that perhaps this final

element was wholly preserved in _Ingwe Ingweron_ preventing _*Ingwe

Ingwiron_ or something of the sort. But now I'm really not sure.



In XI:246 Christopher Tolkien writes 'In the type script he let the

passage stand, but changed _Ingwiel_ to _Ingwion_..' Is there

something in this perhaps? Or is this just the male agental suffix?

I'm not sure.



> So, could I be correct in suggesting that perhaps the title _Parma

> Eldalamberon_ for the journal could be correct, albeit in Vanyarin

> Quenya? Or are there some flaws in my logic or citations here?



You might be, it will take someone who knows a lot more about this

than me to uncover it.



Alex Bolton

> However, later in that paragraph he states that Tolkien (in PM) gives

> the plural of _Ingwë_ as _Ingwi_ "as we would expect", though the

> Vanyar  "called themselves _Ingwer_, so perhaps this reflects a

> special Vanyarin usage?" Combined with a phrase _Ingwe Ingweron_ I

> found in Helge's Quenya wordlist _Ingwe Ingweron_ "chief of the

> chieftains", a name for Ingwë among the Vanyar, it seems to me that

> furthermore, in Vanyarin Quenya the gen. pl. is -ron regardless of

> whether the noun ends in -e.

>

> So, could I be correct in suggesting that perhaps the title _Parma

> Eldalamberon_ for the journal could be correct, albeit in Vanyarin

> Quenya? Or are there some flaws in my logic or citations here?



The word _*eldalamberon_ is just as 'correct' as _*eldalambion_, but

this has nothing to do with Vanyarin Quenya. There are more examples

for pl. _-er_, gen. pl. _-ron_ than just _Ingwer_, compare:



_Tinwerontar_ 'Queen of Stars' (Etym:TÂ-) apparently containing

_#tinweron_ 'of stars'

_maller_ 'roads' (LR:72)

_tyeller_ 'grades' (LotR App.E)

_lámatyáver_ 'sound-tastes' (MR:215,471)

_quendi_ 'Elvish woman', pl. _quendir_ (MR:229) changed from <<

_quende_, pl. _quender_

_nómesseron_ 'of Place-names' (VT42:17)



Notable is _nómesseron_, although the plural _essi_ of _esse_ 'name'

is frequently attested (PM:339; MR:216-217; VT47:4,14 etc.).

I have tried to find a system considering the historical development

of these words, but haven't found any.



Finally, in my opinion a plural _-r_ in Vanyarin Quenya in comparison

with _-i_ in Noldorin Quenya doesn't really make that much sense, if

one considers the context of these late writings, where _Ingwer_ and

_Ingweron_ is attested.

Version A of Dangweth Pengolodh contained the note that it were the

Noldor who have actually invented pl. _-r_ (PM:402), while the Vanyar

introduced the spirantization of _b_ to _v_, for example.

This actually fits well with the much earlier _Lhammas_, where we get

to know that the Vanyar (at that time the 'Lindar') altered their

speech 'by the softening and smoothing of its sounds', but remained

less changeful in words and rather preferred an archaic grammar (LR:172).



RR.