--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "house_of_feanor"
<house_of_feanor@...> wrote:
>
> Well, since I haven't got VT 45 and I do not know the stem Q. _narwë_
> derives from Im not sure what a Sindarinized version might look like.
> That's exactly why I'm asking for suggestions/information.
>

I think that it would be *naru, with an -a- because it precedes a
consonant cluster and therefore I don't think it would stay long (if
it was long in the first place) to then become â>å>o or something
roughly corresponding with that. However, this would unfortunately be
hard to distinguish from _naru_, the S. cognate of Q. _narwa_. It is
possible that _narwë_ comes from the same stem NAR- "fire, etc.", but
it could also be from something else not attested in the Etymologies.

For examples of -rw-, there's Q. _nirwa_ "cushion" from something like
*[nidwó > nidwá > nidwa > niðwa > nizwa > nirwa] according to the
Phonology article on Alex Grigny de Castro's site Lambë Eldaiva.

I see the possibilities of the stem being NAR-, (NAD-), (SNAR-),
SNAD-, NDAR-, NDAD-, (ÑGAR-), ÑGAD-, etc.

NAR- is already "fire" or "tell", NAD- is "pasture", SNAR- is "tie",
etc. I doubt it is NAD- or SNAR- then. ÑGAR-, if it existed, would
IMHO be a variant of ÑGAR(A)M- "wolf". The other stems are (as far as
I know) unattested. Just speculation... which would alter the Sindarin
cognate. In any case I think it had -rwê or -dwê, regardless of the
beginning of the stem.

So, depending on the stem, I might expect to see *naru, (*nadhu),
(*naru), *nadhu, *daru, *dadhu, (*garu), *gadhu, etc. Though I
parenthesized the ones I think less probable because of existing
stems. However, different stems would produce the same results. So I
honestly don't know.

Thanks.
I had a look at the Etymologies before I posted my question here and I
couldn't come to any conclusion. Like yourself, it's all a long list
of hypothesis.
I just hope that someone can shed some light about the etymology of Q.
_narwë_ from VT45.


--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse" <tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "house_of_feanor"
> <house_of_feanor@> wrote:
> >
> > Well, since I haven't got VT 45 and I do not know the stem Q. _narwë_
> > derives from Im not sure what a Sindarinized version might look like.
> > That's exactly why I'm asking for suggestions/information.
> >
>
> I think that it would be *naru, with an -a- because it precedes a
> consonant cluster and therefore I don't think it would stay long (if
> it was long in the first place) to then become â>å>o or something
> roughly corresponding with that. However, this would unfortunately be
> hard to distinguish from _naru_, the S. cognate of Q. _narwa_. It is
> possible that _narwë_ comes from the same stem NAR- "fire, etc.", but
> it could also be from something else not attested in the Etymologies.
>
> For examples of -rw-, there's Q. _nirwa_ "cushion" from something like
> *[nidwó > nidwá > nidwa > niðwa > nizwa > nirwa] according to the
> Phonology article on Alex Grigny de Castro's site Lambë Eldaiva.
>
> I see the possibilities of the stem being NAR-, (NAD-), (SNAR-),
> SNAD-, NDAR-, NDAD-, (ÑGAR-), ÑGAD-, etc.
>
> NAR- is already "fire" or "tell", NAD- is "pasture", SNAR- is "tie",
> etc. I doubt it is NAD- or SNAR- then. ÑGAR-, if it existed, would
> IMHO be a variant of ÑGAR(A)M- "wolf". The other stems are (as far as
> I know) unattested. Just speculation... which would alter the Sindarin
> cognate. In any case I think it had -rwê or -dwê, regardless of the
> beginning of the stem.
>
> So, depending on the stem, I might expect to see *naru, (*nadhu),
> (*naru), *nadhu, *daru, *dadhu, (*garu), *gadhu, etc. Though I
> parenthesized the ones I think less probable because of existing
> stems. However, different stems would produce the same results. So I
> honestly don't know.
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse"
<tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:
>
It is
> possible that _narwë_ comes from the same stem NAR- "fire, etc.",
but
> it could also be from something else not attested in the
Etymologies.

> I see the possibilities of the stem being NAR-, (NAD-), (SNAR-),
> SNAD-, NDAR-, NDAD-, (ÑGAR-), ÑGAD-, etc.

Well, the entry in VT45:37 reads as follows:
"_NDAR-_ sign. Q _narwe_ sign, token. _nar_.
[Deleted entry not encluded in the published text.]"

Thus the stem seems to be beyond question. :-)

Regards,
Erna

The Sinda cognate - if it exists - does not necessarily follow the pattern of
the Q root + suffix combination, it could also be something like *nâr. IMHO.

Thomas Ferencz
Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: aelindis <aon.912734440@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:45:12 AM
Subject: [elfling]Re: [S] Sindarin version of Q. _narwë_

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Dinse"
<tyrhael_idhraen@...>
wrote:
>
It is
> possible that _narwë_ comes from the same stem NAR- "fire, etc.",
but
> it could also be from something else not attested in the
Etymologies.

> I see the possibilities of the stem being NAR-, (NAD-), (SNAR-),
> SNAD-, NDAR-, NDAD-, (ÑGAR-), ÑGAD-, etc.

Well, the entry in VT45:37 reads as follows:
"_NDAR-_ sign. Q _narwe_ sign, token. _nar_.
[Deleted entry not encluded in the published text.]"

Thus the stem seems to be beyond question. :-)

Regards,
Erna

Thanks.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "aelindis" <aon.912734440@...> wrote:
>
> Well, the entry in VT45:37 reads as follows:
> "_NDAR-_ sign. Q _narwe_ sign, token. _nar_.
> [Deleted entry not encluded in the published text.]"
>
> Thus the stem seems to be beyond question. :-)
>
> Regards,
> Erna
>

Thanks.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Atwe <percival64@...> wrote:
>
> The Sinda cognate - if it exists - does not necessarily follow the
pattern of the Q root + suffix combination, it could also be something
like *nâr. IMHO.
>
> Thomas Ferencz
> Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Navaer Lalaith" <elvenswordsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> I've been thinking about this for a while. How to reconstruct a word
> for "Maia"?
> (...)
> So, what are your thoughts?

In my humble opinion the Sindar and Sindarin didn't need the special
word for a _Maia_. The Sindar and the Dúnedain could use simply the
attested word _Rodyn_, sg. *_Rodon_ for both the Valar and the Maiar.
Knowledge about such high matters as metaphysics of Arda was not
necessarily what interested the peoples of Middle-earth (except the
Noldor who used Quenya terms: if they used _menel_, they could also
use _Maia_ or _Vala_ in their writings).

Hello everybody,

I am french and I am a beginner in Quenya's study.
I have a problem because I try to translate the verb "to borrow" in
quenya and I don't find it in the differents lessons and dictionnary
that I have read.

I hope that someone will help me and I thanf you for doing it.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Atwe <percival64@...> wrote:

> The Sinda cognate - if it exists - does not necessarily follow the
pattern of the Q root + suffix combination, it could also be something
like *nâr. IMHO.

The word formation of the Sindarin cognate - if it exists - may be
different, but as it seems to derive from the stem _NDAR-_ the
nasalized stop would rather become _d-_, IMHO.

Erna

Dear Elflingers,

With joy I would like to announce the launch of a new project concerning the
languages created by Tolkien.

The project is called EldarinWiki or Aelfwina Boc (Book of Elf-friends) and is
located at

http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk

The aim of this site is simply to create a wiki-based reference site, i.e. a
wiktionary for Tolkienian languages. We are aiming to exploit all the benefits
associated with a wiki: community contribution, community control, crosslinking
and references etc.

EldarinWiki runs on MediaWiki, the same software that is beneath Wikipedia (but
EW is not part of, or affiliated with the Wikipedia project), so everybody who
has used Wikipedia will be familiar with the structure and working of EW.
Work has already been going on on the wiki; with the permission of Helge
Fauskanger all Quenya words found in his Quenya-English wordlist on Ardalambion
have been uploaded as entries in the Quenya wordbook section; so EW already
functions as a Quenya reference wordlist. Evidently though more than three
thousand entries have been made so far there is still a vast scope for
extension, improvement and refinement, and as all wikis it functions best if
there are contributors and editors who take ownership of entries, sections. EW
has its own discussion topic on Aglardh,
http://middangeard.org.uk/aglardh/?q=node/230 where we have gathered ideas how
EW can be improved and developed.

We are inviting everybody to visit EldarinWiki, rummage about, use it, discuss
and comment in the Talk pages of the wiki or on Aglardh, and, of course, to
contribute to make this project useable and useful.

Finally, I would like to thank

Helge for giving his permission to use his wordlist and thus saving the pain
from starting from scratch:)
and

my friend and fellow Aglardh-dweller and elflinger oreramar who has taken lion's
share in the work done so far.

Thomas Ferencz
Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk

you mockin' me, eh?:)
you are right, of course, my bad

Thomas Ferencz
Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk

----- Original Message ----
From: aelindis <aon.912734440@...>
To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 1:54:56 PM
Subject: [elfling]Re: [S] Sindarin version of Q. _narwë_

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Atwe <percival64@...> wrote:

> The Sinda cognate - if it exists - does not necessarily follow the
pattern of the Q root + suffix combination, it could also be something
like *nâr. IMHO.

The word formation of the Sindarin cognate - if it exists - may be
different, but as it seems to derive from the stem _NDAR-_ the
nasalized stop would rather become _d-_, IMHO.

Erna







--
Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html
Yahoo! Groups Links

As it is known, 'Lowdham's Report on the Adunaic Language' from
'Sauron Defeated' provides us with a detailed phonology of this
language, but trying to pronounce it, one encounters a major problem -
there are no explicit statements given concerning stress.
However, there is at least one note which may be helpful, it deals
with loanwords from the Elvish tongues.

Generally we have two kinds of loans - early ones from some form of
primitive Elvish and late ones directly from Quenya (as _hyulma_ ->
_sulum_ (SD:419)).

In early Elvish loans long _ê,ô_ become _î,û_ (there is no Ad. _ê,ô_ yet).
After the monophthongization _ai_>_ê_, _au_>_ô_ they are directly
adapted as _ê,ô_.
Short Elvish _e,o_ are adapted as _i,u_ or as _a_, especially if
(1) unstressed before _r_ or
(2) where the Adunaic system favours it.
(SD:423)

Under (2) I would understand the following: Given e.g. a word of the
shape CaCeC (C = any consonant) - turning the second _e_ into an _a_
makes the word in fact receiving the characteristical vowel _a_ and it
falls into the declension scheme of these words.

The mentioning of 'unstressed' in the above context may provide us
with valueable information about stress in Adunaic; one just has to
find the appropriate words, i.e. adapted Elvish words or roots
containing _r_. I came up with the following:

ZIR 'love, desire' (SD:423) could likely be an early adapted SER
'love, be fond of' (in Etym - there also AElfwine's name _Elesser_),
just like BITH <- _*peth-_ with lenition and E>I.
Unfortunately for this matter, the ending _-zîr_ always has a long
vowel, as _Nimruzîr_ 'Elendil'.
However, there is also the early form _Nimruzân_ (SD:365) with a long
_â_, but a different ending; and _Indilzar_ - this one is the Ad. name
of Elros and thus I suspect it is probably of another origin, not
conntected to ZIR.

Ad. _nithil_ 'girl' (SD:427) may be from NETH- 'young' or something
similar (cf. Q. _nette_ (VT47:33)) - regular development, no hint
concerning pronunciation.

Late _#khôr_ 'lord' (UT:222) is somewhat puzzling in this context, one
would have expected _ê_ or _î_ as in earlier _Mulkhêr_ 'Melkor'
(SD:358) because of S. _hîr_, Q. _heru_, _hér_ < KHER-.

Ad. _naru_ 'man' (SD:434) and _nardû_ 'soldier' (SD:438) at last fit
the conditions. If they are related to the (N)DER- stems in Etym (also
NER- 'male, man', _nerd-_ (VT47:33)), we see indeed _e_ -> _a_ before _r_.
This means that both words are perhaps stressed on the last syllable.

The stem MINIL 'heaven, sky' is given as early adapted Elvish MENEL
(SD:414) with the mention that it would have produced _minil_ as a
late loan.
However, the form encountered is _minal_ 'heaven'. A commentary,
struck out, says that _minal_ could be explained by alteration in
order to fir the word into the Ad. declensional system.
But I don't see why this should be done - _minil_ would directly fall
under the _khibil_ declension pattern in SD:430, while I am not sure
of the pattern _minal_ would belong to. This may have been the reason
for the deletion of this note, probably after thinking out the actual
declensions.
Regularly _i_ cannot produce _a_, at best _ai_ via a-infixion. So this
is perhaps also the result of the above rule with _l_ instead of _r_
and a probable stress _*mínal_.
Earlier forms are _minil_ (SD:247), _menel_ (SD:353) and _menil_
(SD:371) If stressed _e_ remains in the latter case, unstressed _e_
becomes _i_? However, _menel_ is used verywhere throughout the same text.


No great catch, but better than nothing (I hope).
Result: _*narú_, _*nardû'_, but _*mínal_?
Maybe I'm completely wrong or overlook anything, so I put this to
discussion.

RR.

Is it possible to reach you personnally via a IM? I have some files that
should interest your wiki and i'd like to discuss it

O/H Atwe Ýãñáøå:
> Dear Elflingers,
>
> With joy I would like to announce the launch of a new project concerning the
languages created by Tolkien.
>
> The project is called EldarinWiki or Aelfwina Boc (Book of Elf-friends) and is
located at
>
> http://eldarinwiki.middangeard.org.uk
>
> The aim of this site is simply to create a wiki-based reference site, i.e. a
wiktionary for Tolkienian languages. We are aiming to exploit all the benefits
associated with a wiki: community contribution, community control, crosslinking
and references etc.
>
> EldarinWiki runs on MediaWiki, the same software that is beneath Wikipedia
(but EW is not part of, or affiliated with the Wikipedia project), so everybody
who has used Wikipedia will be familiar with the structure and working of EW.
> Work has already been going on on the wiki; with the permission of Helge
Fauskanger all Quenya words found in his Quenya-English wordlist on Ardalambion
have been uploaded as entries in the Quenya wordbook section; so EW already
functions as a Quenya reference wordlist. Evidently though more than three
thousand entries have been made so far there is still a vast scope for
extension, improvement and refinement, and as all wikis it functions best if
there are contributors and editors who take ownership of entries, sections. EW
has its own discussion topic on Aglardh,
http://middangeard.org.uk/aglardh/?q=node/230 where we have gathered ideas how
EW can be improved and developed.
>
> We are inviting everybody to visit EldarinWiki, rummage about, use it, discuss
and comment in the Talk pages of the wiki or on Aglardh, and, of course, to
contribute to make this project useable and useful.
>
> Finally, I would like to thank
>
> Helge for giving his permission to use his wordlist and thus saving the pain
from starting from scratch:)
> and
>
> my friend and fellow Aglardh-dweller and elflinger oreramar who has taken
lion's share in the work done so far.
>
> Thomas Ferencz
> Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Does anyone know of resources for Tolkien graphic symbols with meanings/history?
I am
curious about the representation of "culture" and ideas beyond the written
word...  Some one
has posted a Freemason's perspective on images taken from the recent LOTR
movies, but is
their anything else out there?

Thank you for your suggestions,
David

Hello,

I am very new to both linguistics and Mr.
Tolkien's languages.  Fascinating!  I have been
reading a lot about Sindarin and trying some
basic translations using references recommended
by the FAQ.  I'm hoping for some corrections and advice.

First, I'm looking for a generic name for a
"heavenly being," similar to an angel or guardian
spirit.  Are any of these correct, or do you have other suggestions?
->  One of/from heaven ... menelben?

->  One of/from the heavens ... pen-en-menelath?

->  Heavenly one ... pen-meneleb?

Second, when indicating possession, is there a
general rule for deciding between the use of the
standalone word _nín_ or the possessive suffix
_-en_?  When using the suffix for a noun ending
in a consonant, is the ending simply appended in
all cases (e.g., my home = _bar nín_ =
_baren_)?  When using the suffix for a noun
ending in a vowel, does the ending simply become
_-n_ (e.g., my endurance = _bronwe nín_ = _bronwen_)?

Thank you for assistance and suggestions,
Jennifer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

PARMA ELDALAMBERON 16

Early Elvish Poetry and Pre-Fëanorian Alphabets

By J. R. R. TOLKIEN

http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma16.html

_Parma Eldalamberon_ 'The Book of Elven-tongues' is a journal of the Elvish
Linguistic
Fellowship,  a special interest group of the Mythopoeic Society.  The current
issue is a
collection of writings by J. R. R. Tolkien from the mid to late 1920s concerning
his
invented languages and scripts.  These writings have been edited and annotated
by
Christopher Gilson, Arden R. Smith, Patrick H. Wynne, Carl F. Hostetter and Bill
Welden,
under the guidance of Christopher Tolkien and with the permission of the Tolkien
Estate.

"Early Elvish Poetry" is our general title for a number of drafts of Tolkien's
Qenya poems,
"Oilima Markirya," "Nieninqe" and "Earendel."   These poems were eventually
included by
Tolkien in his 1931 essay called "A Secret Vice" as examples of the fruition of
his private
efforts at inventing languages.  Accompanying the drafts of these poems are
Tolkien's
glossarial commentaries and his translations, from which also emerged the
English poems,
"The Last Ark" and "Earendel at the Helm."  A version of the poem "Nieninque"
from 1955
is also included.  The documents for each poem have been edited and arranged to
show
their development, with commentaries on their relation to each other and to the
contemporary and earlier writings on the lexicon and grammar of Qenya.

In his essay Tolkien mentions the need for a language inventor to abide by his
own rules if
he wishes to write poetry in it; and around this time he prepared charts of the
"Qenya
Declensions" and "Qenya Conjugations."  These show the contemporary state of
Tolkien's
conception of the rules for inflecting nouns and verbs in the language of the
poems.  We
have included these paradigms in this issue, along with analyses of their
structure and
development from the previous conceptions in "The Qenya Verb Forms" and the
"Early
Qenya Grammar."  Also contemporary with the poems are a series of "Qenya
Word-lists"
and these have been included to show how Tolkien's ideas about the vocabulary of
Qenya
at this period had changed in many ways but also retained much that in
retrospect can be
viewed as central to the "Qenya Lexicon."

The "Pre-Fëanorian Alphabets" is an edition of Tolkien's charts and notes from
about 1924
to 1929 dealing with the scripts that conceptually precede the Fëanorian Tengwar
that
would eventually be included in The Lord of the Rings.  This issue of _Parma
Eldalamberon_ contains "Pre-Fëanorian Alphabets, Part I," with  the alphabets
called
Qenyatic, Falassin, Noriac, Banyaric and Sinyatic.  Tolkien's examples of the
scripts are
reproduced in fascimile.  These include charts of the sounds represented by the
letters,
and various Qenya, Latin, and English words and texts written in the scripts.
Transcriptions of the examples, and commentary on the dating and historical
background
are provided.

Cover art by Adam Victor Christensen.

_Parma Eldalamberon_ Issue Number 16  is a 150-page journal.  Available for
shipping
November 27, 2006.

The cost is $30 per copy including postage and handling world-wide.

Payment by PayPal can be made at:

http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma16.html

Or send check or money-order (U.S. funds only) to:

Christopher Gilson
10646-A Rosewood Road
Cupertino, CA 95014
U.S.A.

> Second, when indicating possession, is there a
> general rule for deciding between the use of the
> standalone word _nín_ or the possessive suffix
> _-en_?

I don't think that there is a possessive suffix _?-en_ - presumably it's
just _-n_ and it preserves the preceding Old Sindarin vowel. So I would
not ordinarily use it (as you probably don't know the Old Sindarin final
vowel for most words). See

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/pron_rek.html

Part III for more background.

> When using the suffix for a noun ending
> in a consonant, is the ending simply appended in
> all cases (e.g., my home = _bar nín_ =
> _baren_)?  When using the suffix for a noun
> ending in a vowel, does the ending simply become
> _-n_ (e.g., my endurance = _bronwe nín_ = _bronwen_)?

Few Sindarin words end with a vowel - usually that implies that their
evolution has been a little more complicated. It's not obvious to me what
the suffix would actually do to such a word - maybe the analogical
levelled form _*bronwen_ could occur. We simply don't know.

* Thorsten

Hi!

   Just a little question.

   In the FotR movie, in front of the doors of Moria, Gandalf said

   "Ando Eldarinwa, a lasta quettanya, Fenda Casarinwa!"

   What is this possessive? Why Eldarinwa and Casarinwa instead of Eldarwa and
Casarwa?

   Thanks in advance for your response.

   Evenstar

   http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
   Le Monde des Elfes


---------------------------------
  Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions !
Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur
Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Evenstar <evenstar62@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
>   Just a little question.
>
>   In the FotR movie, in front of the doors of Moria, Gandalf said
>
>   "Ando Eldarinwa, a lasta quettanya, Fenda Casarinwa!"
>
>   What is this possessive? Why Eldarinwa and Casarinwa instead of
Eldarwa and Casarwa?
>
>   Thanks in advance for your response.
>
>   Evenstar
>
>   http://www.ambar-eldaron.com

Hi,

Eldarinwa and Casarinwa are adjectives with the adjectival ending -rin
  (Elda +rin = Elvish) or -rinwa which takes a possessive meaning = the
Elvish gate or the gate of the Elves. Also in "Eldarinwe leperi ar
notessi", "quentale Noldorinwa", "hwesta sindarinwa".

I do not think you could use the possessive here, which would be
"Eldaiva", the gate not being right now in the possession of the
Elves. Maybe the genitive would be possible - ando Eldaron.

Órerámar

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "kevkev_77" <kevkev77@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> I am french and I am a beginner in Quenya's study.
> I have a problem because I try to translate the verb "to borrow" in
> quenya and I don't find it in the differents lessons and dictionnary
> that I have read.
>
> I hope that someone will help me and I thanf you for doing it.
>

Hi,

I remember having seen somewhere the expression "ask from" in
replacement of "borrow", unfortunately the source eludes me right now.
But I think this is a good solution.

maquet- followed by an ablative = ask from


Órerámar

> In the FotR movie, in front of the doors of Moria, Gandalf said
> "Ando Eldarinwa, a lasta quettanya, Fenda Casarinwa!"
> What is this possessive? Why Eldarinwa and Casarinwa instead of
> Eldarwa and Casarwa?
> [...] Evenstar

You can find Eldarinwa in the Appendix F of the LotR, as in Morgoth's Ring p.
415 (the famous title Essecanta Eldarinwa).

Other examples :

- sindarinwa in Appendix E of the LotR
- Ñoldorinwa in VT39 p. 18
- Valarinwa in The War of the Jewels (chapter Quendi & Eldar) p. 397.

So David Salo probably just had adapted the ending -inwa to Casar, which - like
Eldar - has two syllables and the same ending.

All of these words are in the wordlist of HKF on your website...

David






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-- David <wigdawei@...> wrote:
> Does anyone know of resources for Tolkien graphic
> symbols with meanings/history?  I am
> curious about the representation of "culture" and
> ideas beyond the written word... [...]

I remember a book about the art of Tolkien.  Among the
pictures were different symbols (floers, sun, moon,
etc.) which were supposed to be heraldry-like symbols
for different characters.  I remember Luthien's was a
white flower.  I adapted the sun, star and flower for
my daughter Elanor's birth sampler.
Joan
-

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "ramaroreo" <ramaroreo@...> wrote:
[...]
> I remember having seen somewhere the expression "ask from" in
> replacement of "borrow", unfortunately the source eludes me right
now.
> But I think this is a good solution.
>
> maquet- followed by an ablative = ask from
>
> Órerámar

Hi,

thank you for your answer, but I wonder if it works if the thing
that we borrow is abstract? For example, "to borrow a quotation from
an author".

Kev

Thank you, Thorsten, especially for the link and background
information.  I will enjoy the studying.

Jennifer

p.s.  I read about the possessive ending
at:  http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm#Heading19 .  In my
limited reading of Sindarin phrases, I have not noted the use of the
ending, so that is what prompted my question.


>I don't think that there is a possessive suffix _?-en_ - presumably it's
>just _-n_ and it preserves the preceding Old Sindarin vowel. So I would
>not ordinarily use it (as you probably don't know the Old Sindarin final
>vowel for most words). See
>
><http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/pron_rek.html>http://www.phy.duke.edu/~t\
renk/elvish/pron_rek.html
[...]

Hi All,

a Yeats translation, for your kind comments:

DEATH

NOR dread nor hope attend

A dying animal;

A man awaits his end

Dreading and hoping all;

Many times he died,

Many times rose again.

A great man in his pride

Confronting murderous men

Casts derision upon

Supersession of breath;

He knows death to the bone --

Man has created death.



Qualme

Lá osse lá estel ear

as i fírala kelva;

Atan apacene mettarya

aistala 'r milyala ilya;

*Lillume firnes,

*Lillume enortanes.

Taura quén meletyaryasse

Mahtala *raxie quéni

Núra óreryallo nattíra

Súleo métima hwesta;

Qualme sen moina aqua --

Qualme Atanínen carna.



----

*lillume: adv "often, many times" cf. the attested _illume_

*raxea: adj "dangerous" cf. the attested _raxellor_



Thomas Ferencz
Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.org.uk

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "kevkev_77" <kevkev77@...> wrote:
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "ramaroreo" <ramaroreo@> wrote:
> [...]
> > I remember having seen somewhere the expression "ask from" in
> > replacement of "borrow", unfortunately the source eludes me right
> now.
> > But I think this is a good solution.
> >
> > maquet- followed by an ablative = ask from
> >
> > Órerámar
>
> Hi,
>
> thank you for your answer, but I wonder if it works if the thing
> that we borrow is abstract? For example, "to borrow a quotation
from
> an author".
>
> Kev

Hi,

Indeed, good question, you would rather say: to quote an author, or
something like that.
Maybe you could give the whole sentence you wish to translate, it
would be easier to make suggestions.

Órerámar
>

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "ramaroreo" <ramaroreo@...> wrote:

> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > thank you for your answer, but I wonder if it works if the thing
> > that we borrow is abstract? For example, "to borrow a quotation
> from
> > an author".
> >
> > Kev

If you're quoting a direct passage, you might say _"quoted stuff" equë
(author's name)_.

-M Dinse

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "ramaroreo" <ramaroreo@...> wrote:
> Maybe you could give the whole sentence you wish to translate, it
> would be easier to make suggestions.
>
> Órerámar

Please do not ask people to offer up sentences to be translated. Our
FAQ reminds us:

"Although Elfling users are happy to help you with translation problems
you may have, Elfling is not a translation service. If you have come to
Elfling for help in translating a phrase or name, you must make an
effort to do the translation yourself before submitting it to the
group. Messages that consist only of a request for someone to do your
translation for you will be rejected."

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elimloth" <draco@...> wrote:

> Please do not ask people to offer up sentences to be translated.

"ramaroreo" did not ask "kevkev_77" to "offer up sentences to be
translated", IMHO.

He enquired about the context in order to ascertain the actual meaning
of "to borrow" in this sentence, which seems totally legitimate to me.

Erna

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elimloth" <draco@...> wrote:
[...]
> Please do not ask people to offer up sentences to be translated.
[...]

Hi,

Please excuse me elimloth, I did not give the whole sentence in
order to translate everything but just to show the context of this
one. I can translate the rest of the sentence alone but I have a
problem with the verb "to borrow". Of course, when I will have
finished the translation, I will submit this one to you.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Kev