Just for fun, a little booklet with 7 Sudoku (Sundoku in Quenya ;-))
grids with solutions!!!

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/sudoku_eng.htm

Enjoy!

Evenstar

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes

I have updated my Quenya wordlists:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/eng-quen.rtf

Both lists now include material as far as VT47, and I also slipped in what
I consider the most valuable information from VT48: the numbers 13-19 and
_cainen_ being replaced by _quain, quean_ as the word for 10.

Evenstar already has a PDF version available, if you prefer that:

www.ambar-eldaron.com/quen-eng.pdf
www.ambar-eldaron.com/eng-quen.pdf

Incidentally, Ardalambion now has a guestbook once again:

http://www.anvilbook.com/guestbook.php?essenya

There was another guestbook a long while ago, but it stopped working and I
had to remove it.

- HKF

> I am getting married in May and would like an inscription engraved into
the inside of my wedding band.

And it is to read "I love to see your eyes shine when you laugh". Nice.

Your Sindarin attempt:

> Informal: Melin cened chîn gîn sílar ir gladhach
> Formal: Melin cened chîn lîn sílar ir gladhal

According to current thinking about Sindarin, including some assumptions
that cannot be proved (like _ir_ = "when"), this could be close to correct
(but please understand that new publications may significantly alter the
picture). It seems the verb "to love" is _mela_ rather than _mel-_ (at
least this was the case in "Noldorin", as revealed in the addenda to the
Etymologies). If so, "I love" should be, not _melin_ (as in Quenya), but
rather _melon_. Not pronounced quite like the English fruit...

Otherwise, the form _sílar_ is the only thing that is obviously problematic
in this rendering. I don't think the verb needs a plural ending here.
English does not inflect verbs in such a position; e.g. "the lamp shines",
but "I see the lamp SHINE" (not **"I see the lamp shines").

Would the simple verbal stem _síla_ be enough in Sindarin? No sentence with
such a structure is attested in Grey-elven, so we have nothing to go on. It
would work in Quenya (as demonstrated by _man kenuva...kirya...KÍRA_, "who
shall heed...[a] ship...SAIL" in the Markirya poem). Maybe it is safer to
rephrase as _melon cened galad i chín gín ir gladhach_, "I love to see the
light of your eyes when you laugh" (_calad_ "light", here lenited _galad_
as the object of _cened_).

> Can anyone tell me which is the more accurate for the Third Age?

Except for that guy who died in 1973, you mean? Our knowledge of Sindarin
(of any Age, including our own) is still very imperfect, I'm afraid.

Quenya:

> - Melinyet cenien hendulya calair írë lálëalyë (or lálëal? It appears
to be up to the speaker whether they use l or lyë.)

Yes, the long or short form of the ending may be optional. But _melinyet
cenien hendulya_ could mean "I love you [in order] to see your eyes"!

I guess I would say: _Melin cene hendulyat cála íre lalalyë_, or perhaps
_melin cene hendutyat cála írë lalat_, using endings for familiar "you"
(the L endings seem to express a formal "you"). The ending for informal
"your" is not attested; both _-tya_ and _-cca_ have been suggested.

The form _hendulyat_ (or _hendutyat_) is not certain. I assume that when a
dual noun receives a pronominal suffix, it also receives a dual marker _-t_
at the end, even if there is already another dual marker (like _u_ here) in
the word. Compare a word like _hildinyar_ "my heirs", which seems to
contain two PLURAL markers (_-i_ and _-r_).

> We chose the aorist tense for 'shine' because it expresses general,
timeless truths, which this phrase seems to be. We also chose cal- over
sil- because sil tends to refer more to shining white, or am I wrong there?

No, this is quite correct.

> Also, we were unsure about 'laugh'. Lálëalyë is the present tense for,
'you laugh', correct?

The theory that A-stems have present-tense forms in _-ea_ is uncertain (as
indicated in current versions of my Quenya course). Here you can simply use
the aorist: "you laugh", not "you're laughing".

> But if we have, 'to shine' as the aorist then should we also not have
laugh as the same, in which case it's lálëlyë
I believe.

_Lalalye_, I should say. Or _lalat_ with the ending for informal "you" (a
longer form _lalatye_ is possible, but this ending is unattested).

> It's about then that my brain gave out and I thought I should take a
rest. So, before my eyeballs pop out, can people tell me if I am close to
being accurate before I continue onwards?

Oh, you are definitely on to something. You have identified the vocabulary
you need, and parts of the grammar are also in place.

- HKF

Why would you use the associative/possessive case? Why not use the genitive? In
that case _yomenie_ would become _yomeniëo_ (singular) and _yomenieron_
(plural). If you need to use the associative case the singular would be
_yomenieva_ and the plural would most likely be _yomeníva_. But I would stick
with the genitive case. It's much easier to deal with and Tolkien states that by
the Third Age the associative case had been replaced with the genitive case
anyway.

   Arthur

Matthew Dinse <tyrhael_idhraen@...> wrote:
   This may seem like a no-brainer question, but I'm not as aware in the
phonological shifts with vowels as with consonants.

If I were to try and say something like "of meetings (pl.)" ending in
-ie, I assume I would add -iva to the singular form _yomenie_. For the
singular, I comprehend _yomenieeva_, but with the plural, how would
the vowels change when -ie + -iva occurs? My first guess would be that
it becomes -iiva; I am sure -ieiva can't happen and the -ei- would
contract somehow. Am I close?

- M. Dinse





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Utúlie'n Estel!

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

>It seems the verb "to love" is _mela_ rather than _mel-_ (at
>least this was the case in "Noldorin", as revealed in the addenda to the
>Etymologies). If so, "I love" should be, not _melin_ (as in Quenya), but
>rather _melon_. Not pronounced quite like the English fruit...

Noldorin _lhoda_ is also "to float" in Etym:370, yet the present tense 3 sg.
was revealed to be _lhôd_ in VT45:29. Perhaps this is also not too
dissimilar
to the "garo- (gerin)" case in Etym:360.

>Otherwise, the form _sílar_ is the only thing that is obviously problematic
>in this rendering. I don't think the verb needs a plural ending here.
>English does not inflect verbs in such a position; e.g. "the lamp shines",
>but "I see the lamp SHINE" (not **"I see the lamp shines").
>
>Would the simple verbal stem _síla_ be enough in Sindarin? No sentence with
>such a structure is attested in Grey-elven, so we have nothing to go on. It
>would work in Quenya (as demonstrated by _man kenuva...kirya...KÍRA_,
>"who shall heed...[a] ship...SAIL" in the Markirya poem). Maybe it is safer
>to
>rephrase as _melon cened galad i chín gín ir gladhach_, "I love to see the
>light of your eyes when you laugh" (_calad_ "light", here lenited _galad_
>as the object of _cened_).

It is also worthwhile to note that PM:359 reads _gladh-_ as the Sindarin
verb;
though the Common Eldarin form is /g-lada-/ according to the same page.
Similarities and dissimilarities to the Noldorin verb type I mention above
are worth
thinking about; if the present stem was indeed *_gladha-_ and not
*_gledhi-_,
then this verb class would be something like a "mirror flipside" of the
Noldorin
_lhoda-/lhôd_ type.

Elhath

Arthur Boccaccio wrote:

>Why would you use the associative/possessive case? Why not use the
>genitive? In that case _yomenie_ would become _yomeniëo_ (singular) and
>_yomenieron_ (plural). If you need to use the associative case the singular
>would be _yomenieva_ and the plural would most likely be _yomeníva_. But I
>would stick with the genitive case. It's much easier to deal with and
>Tolkien states that by the Third Age the associative case had been replaced
>with the genitive case anyway.

Since those forms contain four or more non-stress attracting syllables, the
coranar/coranári phenomenon* would likely take effect, hence ending in at
least *_yomeniéron_ and _yomeniéva_ (per Eldaliéva). In the case of
_yomenië+o_, the second-to-last syllable would of course consist only of the
latter E, hence perhaps yielding *_yomeniéo_ as Alex Grigny de Castro
presents (http://www.xs4all.nl/~xelag/quenya_noun_tables.html#eldalie).

Elhath

* also _vanimálion_, genitive of partitive plural *vanimáli < *vanima+li
(LotR); compare also Etym:356 ixt LT1:262 (erume; adj. still ?erúmea ?) and
of course Etym:63/72 (antaváro/antaróta). (!)_Ettelea_ in Etym:356/VT45:13
is also a curious thing.

Hello everyone.
I'm new in your group, and I would like to introduce myself a little
first.

My real name is Bas, I'm from the Netherlands and I recently dove
into LotR. I have not read any books related to it, though I'm
planning on starting in the Silmarillion soon.

The biggest interest I have in LotR are their Dwarves, so I felt
like I had to learn their language :D When I found out not much was
known about it, I was pretty set up. Then, browsing around the web
for more information on what I now knew was Khuzdul, the language of
the Dwarves, the crazy idea popped up on continuing development of
it myself.

Of course, something as big as that can be done by one man alone,
but it's one hell of a big job. I figured I can't be the only one
that wants to know more about Khuzdul, but I realize my Linguistic
skills are WAY too minimal to 'create' a language.

Also, I am unsure if it is to me to take on such a project. I'm
quite ambitious, but only a 15 year old. JRR Tolkien was and still
is in a way a great genious, who dedicated his life to something
that no one can really tell to be still in development or finished.
Can I go on with developping Khuzdul for use of all who want to use
it?

I am not just new to this group, but to YahooGroups in total and
even to mailing lists such as this one. I hope you are willing to
help me with this project or at least give me your opinions on it.

Hope to hear from you soon,
     Zekiel Ironfang

I have read the Quenya course description of ó, and I'm finding it
difficult to figure out how to pronounce it. In the course, it said
ó sounds like "o" in the English sore, but it should be tenser. It
should sound midway between the "o" in sore and "oo" in soon. I
haven't dealt with any language with a slightly different
pronuciation of "o" yet, so I'm kind of at a loss of imagining this
sound, or even duplicating it (I have tried).

Would an English speaker go about pinning down ó? Pronounce the "o"
in sore and purse my lips like in the "oo" in soon? I find this the
closest to the description in the course but don't know if it's
right. Or is there a word in English that pins down the sound even
though it may use a differnt letter(s)? I only say this because that
is how the pronunciation of a was depicted with the English
word "at".
If not, Is there an "o" in another language that matches it? If so,
please tell me what language is it so I can find some sound files to
reference ó.

Another small question, is the definite article "i"  pronounced
like "i" in pit, or more like "i" in machine?
I just had to ask because I read that when "i" comes at the end of a
word, it is pronounced more like "i" at the end of the word "Iraqi".
I would assume it is more like "i" in machine, but I could be wrong.

I also have a question about stress and accentuation.
There is a passage in the Quenya course that says that it looks as
though Tolkien copied the stress and accentuation from latin. I have
read the rules of accentuation and stress but for me it isn't good
enough. Since it appears the model for stress and accentuation is
from latin, could I listen to spoken latin (or some other language)
to get an idea of how the rhythm of Quenya would sound like? I've
been having a hard time imagining what quenya sounds like because I
am resisting the urge to use Japanese rhythm, stress, and
accentuation (which I KNOW won't work, but since I have studied it
so long, it's become habit).

Any help is appreciated! Hannon le.

Rinji HalfElf wrote:

>Is there an "o" in another language that matches it? If so,
>please tell me what language is it so I can find some sound files to
>reference ó.

Here are some "actual" Quenya sound files of texts that have _ó_.
Hopefully they also help to solve the rest of your questions.

http://www.ellammath.de/altarielloe.htm
http://www.geocities.com/romanrausch/Eldarin/Fiiriels_Song.mp3 (Etym:72)

Otherwise I would say on the _ó_ that it resembles that of Finnish
and Italian (latter, when stressed and one consonant follows). Some
might hear a strong similarity in English "law" (cf. Classical Semitic -aw-
>-oo-) and in various words with -o- in the rural UK dialects that
also have a good -ay-/-ei- for Q _é_.

Elhath

Elhath wrote:


> Otherwise I would say on the _ó_ that it resembles that of Finnish
> and Italian (latter, when stressed and one consonant follows). Some
> might hear a strong similarity in English "law" (cf. Classical
> Semitic -aw-
>>-oo-) and in various words with -o- in the rural UK dialects that
> also have a good -ay-/-ei- for Q _é_.
>


In case "Rinji HalfElf" knows a little German, I believe that the long
o-sounds in _Kohle, Fohlen, etc_ are probably as close to Quenya _ó_ as it
gets. :)

Hisilome

Found on one site
>Melin ceni hin lîn síla i 'eladhach
Found on another site
>Informal: Melin cened chîn gîn sílar ir gladhach
>Formal: Melin cened chîn lîn sílar ir gladhal

Thanks for your replies, it's very helpful for a newbie to have such a resource
like this to be
able to discuss things like this - would that we had the man himself, but alas!
One day we may all
get the chance to ask him, huh? I should point out however, that the Sindarin I
mentioned in my
message (above) are two versions that I have discovered on line. I'm not sure
why exactly they
differ from each other, but I suppose that comes down to differences of opinion.

I chose _melinyet cenien_ because of two phrases that someone had translated
that seemed to mean
what I wanted them to.

_Melinyet núravë_  -- 	 I love them deeply.
_úlientë cenien me, lá cenien tye._ -- They have come to see us, not to see
thee.

Of course, they could be in error in their translations which should teach me to
rely on my own
judgement more, but as I'm still new at this I felt I needed a hand.

[...]
> > But if we have, 'to shine' as the aorist then should we also not have laugh
as the same, in
> > which case it's lálëlyë I believe.
>
> _Lalalye_, I should say. Or _lalat_ with the ending for informal "you" (a
> longer form _lalatye_ is possible, but this ending is unattested).

I suppose I also was swayed toward choosing _Lálëalyë_ (or _Lalalye_) over
_lalat_ because it
looks 'prettier' when using Roman fonts. Since this will wind up being
translated into Tengwar
that shouldn't matter I guess, but what you say makes sense. I am still debating
whether I want
this to be translated into the more formal 'you' or the less formal one, so that
will also
influence my choice in the end.

[...]

>
> Is there an "o" in another language that matches it? If so, please
> tell me what language is it so I can find some sound files to
> reference ó.


Italian and Spanish both go.

Another small question, is the definite article "i"  pronounced
> like "i" in pit, or more like "i" in machine?


Though I'm an absolute beginner at Quenya, definitely the latter.
English-speakers pronounce the sound called "schwi" (You'll
probably know the blurred vowel schwa; hence the name) in the
word "pit" which is not a clear and pure "i" sound.
It is most recommended to try "bee" keeping the vowel 'still'
(always prevent it from blending, to put it in words), so the "ee"
should sound like a long "í". Remember that neither of the two
similar vowels in the expression "liberty" are valid: they are
blurred, which is not quite acceptable.

I also have a question about stress and accentuation.
> There is a passage in the Quenya course that says that it looks as
> though Tolkien copied the stress and accentuation from latin. I have
> read the rules of accentuation and stress but for me it isn't good
> enough. Since it appears the model for stress and accentuation is
> from latin, could I listen to spoken latin (or some other language)
> to get an idea of how the rhythm of Quenya would sound like?


"LOrem IPsum DOlor sit Amet, consecTEtuer adiPIScing Elit. DOnec acCUMsan
NULla. Sed DICtum. PROin PLAcerat DOlor eu est..."

(Stress marked with capital letters in polysyllabic words.)
Though I'm not sure about 'consectetuer', maybe the second-to-last
vowel is long.

Daniel


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elhath:

It's going to be so hard to resist changing the accent on the last
word of a question.

The sample clips sound like a sermon, most of the words' syllables
are the a similar length apart. I did sense some emotion in the
song, but it resembles one of my spanish teachers reading a text
from a book, before shutting it and then returning to a natural
rhythm when addressing the students in a conversational tone.

Maybe I am looking for sound clips of conversational Quenya.
If I could speak it better, I would definitely help with a
conversational series of clips. It would be a good project.

btw, what does your name mean :)?

----

From Hisilme's description, I have come across the german "o" while
trying to say "ó" (even though I had not known it was German). Now I
just need to have the feeling of saying ó memorized in my throat.

----

Daniel:

The length of time i is held should be no problem for me. In
Japanese, they do not say vowels for extended periods (except for
the un/ua, which like like "um"/"uhh").
If I were to say "bee" in Japanese, the romaji would be "bii", with
the extra "i" added to indicate that this letter is held longer.
If I am right in the assumption that you are reffering to the length
of time the vowel is held/said, then it would be written as "bi",
and "i" would not be said as long of a duration.

----

Thanks for the help!

From: "Rinji HalfElf" <julia_rose_us@...>:

>The sample clips sound like a sermon, most of the words' syllables
>are the a similar length apart. I did sense some emotion in the
>song, but it resembles one of my spanish teachers reading a text
>from a book, before shutting it and then returning to a natural
>rhythm when addressing the students in a conversational tone.

See also http://tolklang.quettar.org/pronmid/pronguide.html ,
http://www.geocities.com/rainalkar/ ,
http://petrisamueltikka.tripod.com (zip files work when you take
off the "\" if visible)

>btw, what does your name mean :)?

It's a neo-fabrication with the Elvish roots *3E (Quenya S) and S-LAS
(Etym:368) as primary influence (even though I have since noted
more or less fitting similarities in some other languages as well).

Elhath

A few questions:

Is it possible (allowed, at least rarely) to use dots instead of spaces
between words? I know that dots are supposed to mark a stop in
pronounciation, somewhat like comma, but still.

Why is the letter halla not marked in the table Tolkien provided? When it is
suppossed to be used for the previously voiceless l, r, transcribed as hl,
hr in Quenya 3rd age?

The tengwar in the forth row, which is contained of nasals+voiceless
plosives, are supposed to be able to be written as the tengwar in the first
row with the low tilde underneath them, which is supposed to mark the
''nasalisation'' of the following consonant?? Is this true? The source is
Amanye tenceli. If it is true, when exactly is this possible, in compunds,
or everywhere? If everywhere, what is the point of fourth row in quenya
mode?

Bye, Rainalkar

Aiya!

I tried to translate "The eagles of the Lords of the West, they
arrive!" in sindarin.

I have found "I Theryn en Annuhir, telir!", but I think it is full of
mistakes...

Could you help me please?

Thanks in advance...

                                                       taure

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "taure_87" <taure_87@...> wrote:

> "The eagles of the Lords of the West, they arrive!"
>
> "I Theryn en Annuhir, telir!"

I would guess that a compound of _Annûn_+_hîr_ might rather become
_Annúnhir_, cf. _duinhir_. (In _Annúminas_ assimlation _-nm-_ > _-m-
_ seems to take place.)

Greetings,
Erna

Bas wrote:

> The biggest interest I have in LotR are their Dwarves, so I felt like I
had to learn their language :D When I found out not much was  known about
it, I was pretty set up. Then, browsing around the web for more information
on what I now knew was Khuzdul, the language of the Dwarves, the crazy idea
popped up on continuing development of it myself.

You are not the first to propose, or even attempt to initiate, such a
project.

Attempts to develop normalized versions of Tolkien's languages mostly focus
on the two most prominent ones: Quenya and Sindarin, particularly the
former. In their case we have much vocabulary, and even when we introduce
neologisms, they can be based on Tolkienian roots. (The problems we
encounter mainly have to do with uncertainties about syntax and the lack of
certain important "grammatical" words.)

The "minor" Elvish tongues like Telerin can also be drastically expanded,
if there is any interest in doing so. If we could decide upon a set of
sound-changes occurring between the Common Eldarin stage and the later
incarnations of these languages (editing away Tolkien's indecision for our
own convenience), we could derive hundreds or thousands of Neo-Telerin or
Neo-Nandorin words.

In principle we could even derive wholly unknown "Avarin" Elvish tongues,
starting from Tolkien's roots, and there would still be a relatively firm
connection to Tolkien's original work. (What the Professor would have
thought of such projects, and whether he would even consider granting the
results any official or "canonical" status, are of course questions that
must remain forever unanswered.)

Things become very much more problematic if we try to "develop" any
language outside the Elvish language family, of which Khuzdul (or Khuzdûl)
may be the prime example.

Regarding Khuzdul, Tolkien stated that "this tongue has been sketched in
some detail of structure, if with a very small vocabulary" (PM:300). So
hopefully, a very basic grammar is waiting to be published. But the best we
can hope for, is something that would make Khuzdul about as "complete" as
Adûnaic. There will NOT be enough Tolkien-made vocabulary to make this a
functional language. Nor can we expect a wealth of roots on which we can
base neologisms, as in the case of the Elvish language family.

So a "complete" Khuzdul must really be Pseudo-Khuzdul, with massive amounts
of free invention. True, based on the assumption that the tongues of Men
were influenced by Khuzdul in the remote past, we could draw some
vocabulary from Adûnaic and Taliska (if the grammar of the latter is ever
published...it was announced in VT many years ago), and maybe even from
Valarin since Khuzdul was invented by Aule the Vala. But all of these
languages are themselves fragmentary (well, in the case of Taliska we don't
know yet, but it can't possibly be as "complete" as Quenya).

So in the end we should have to invent lots and lots of roots and bases out
of thin air, and the result would be linguistic fan fiction built around a
tiny core of genuinely Tolkienian material. It would thus differ from a
normalized Neo-Quenya or Neo-Sindarin, where we could with far greater
justification say that this is simply a unified system edited from
Tolkien's material, supplemented with neologisms where necessary, but these
neologisms come from Tolkien's own roots.

This said, I don't "oppose" a project aiming to develop a semi-functional
fan fiction version of Khuzdul. Khuzdul is cool, everybody agrees about
that, and even a Tolkienesque Pseudo-Khuzdul could be an interesting
project. David Salo actually invented a little Pseudo-Khuzdul for the
movies.

> Of course, something as big as that can be done by one man alone, but
it's one hell of a big job.

Well. Sketching a basic grammar for a language isn't at all very difficult
or time-consuming. Our problem is that there apparently IS an unpublished
grammar-sketch by Tolkien, setting out "some details of [Khuzdul]
structure". At least we must hope these notes survive. Years ago, I asked
Bill Welden whether they do, but apparently such sensitive information
cannot be released. (Not that I asked, or will ask, any questions about the
CONTENTS of these notes; I just asked whether they still EXIST at all, so
that we can hope for their eventual publication.)

In the last issue of VT, Patrick Wynne does note regarding the new root SLN
"fall" and its derived forms _sulûn_ or _salôn_ that they appear to be ad
hoc inventions, for "I have found no evidence of such a Dwarvish base or
forms elsewhere in Tolkien's writings, published or unpublished" (VT48:29).
But how extensive Tolkien's writings on Khuzdul are, we can only wonder.
Did he just write a little about nouns, sufficient to derive the few
place-names he needed for his narratives, or did he get as far as the Verb?
(He didn't in the case of Adûnaic...) Are there any other pronouns than
_mênu_, accusative "you"?

Before we have seen Tolkien's basic notes about Khuzdul, it would be
extremely risky to start developing fresh grammar, since it could well be
contradicted by Tolkien's own material. If you are itching to start
developing Khuzdul, the safest thing at this stage would be a preliminary
project. The aim would not be to invent a functional language, maybe not
even words that can be pronounced, but simply a large number of the
triliteral roots we know the language is based on (comparable to such
attested cases as NRG "black", KBL "silver"). In this way a larger
_potential_ vocabulary would be ready if one day we learn how to develop
actual words from such roots, and how to inflect them. We do, of course,
have some clues already, though almost exclusively regarding nouns.

If you really can't wait, a more complete grammar COULD be developed from
David Salo's ideas, and then the language could be called Movie Khuzdul
(the kind of Khuzdul that is supposedly spoken by the Dwarves in the Peter
Jackson's Movie Middle-earth, not entirely identical to Tolkien's literary
Middle-earth anyway). Such a Movie Khuzdul could remain as a valid entity
in its own right even if details of grammar are eventually contradicted by
Tolkien's notes. (But most people who call themselves Tolkien-linguists
could not be expected to have much interest in a system that turned out to
contradict what the Professor originally had in mind.)

> Also, I am unsure if it is to me to take on such a project. I'm quite
ambitious, but only a 15 year old.

Then you may live to see Tolkien's notes on Khuzdul published. :)

> Can I go on with developping Khuzdul for use of all who want to use it?

Well, nobody will shoot you... But such fan fiction would have to be well
thought out, and well presented, if it is to attract the interest of
others. I would not be above providing some input (some of my "real-world"
linguistic studies have to do with tongues that are structurally similar to
Khuzdul), as long as we don't take any fanfic Neo-Khuzdul more seriously
than it deserves.

- HKF

Matthew Dinse asked (some time ago):

> If I were to try and say something like "of meetings (pl.)" ending in
-ie, I assume I would add -iva to the singular form _yomenie_. For the
singular, I comprehend _yomenieeva_, but with the plural, how would the
vowels change when -ie + -iva occurs?

This is one of the unsolved problems of Quenya grammar. I discuss it and
other problems in the most recent of the appendices to my Quenya course
("Words We Don't Quite Know How to Inflect"):

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qappend.rtf

At least you may have the comfort that you are not the only one who has
wondered about this.

- HKF

Suilad,

I saw this very nice quote that I wanted to translate into Sindarin...

"Don't pray up to Heaven while you shit on the Earth. Deny not the
Mother who gave us birth."

This is what I came up with:

_Ú-chano am Menel gwathad i Amar. Ú-abado Naneth i onnant men._

(Do_not_call upon Heaven staining/soiling the Earth. Deny_not [the]
mother who begetted us.)

Is this correct? Any suggestions, corrections?
Thanks!

Love,
Nindiel

Obviously the opinions will vary what goes for a
"nice" quote and what not:)

--- Nindiel <cyllwen@...> wrote:

> Suilad,
>
> I saw this very nice quote that I wanted to
> translate into Sindarin...
>
> "Don't pray up to Heaven while you shit on the
> Earth. Deny not the
> Mother who gave us birth."
>
> This is what I came up with:
>
> _Ú-chano am Menel gwathad i Amar. Ú-abado Naneth i
> onnant men._


Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu
Footprints - the Middangeard blog - http://www.middangeard.hu/blog

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Nindiel, I have the following suggestions:

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Nindiel" <cyllwen@...> wrote:

> _Ú-chano am Menel gwathad i Amar. Ú-abado Naneth i onnant men._
>
> (Do_not_call upon Heaven staining/soiling the Earth. Deny_not
[the]
> mother who begetted us.)

In order to negate the imperative I would suggest to use the
particle _avo_ or the prefix _av-_.

Instead of the gerund (_gwathad_) I would recommend the present
active participle.

Lenition of _cano_ would be _gano_.

Instead of the reconstructed (?) _*abado_ you could maybe use
_awartho_ "forsake".

Thus: _Avgano am Menel gwathol Amar. Avawartho Naneth i onnant(*)
ven!_

(*) the pa.t. form seems quite uncertain.


By the way, I assume that Nindiel was rather asking for suggestions
regarding the translation than for comments on the "niceness" of the
quote!

*Erna

>
> By the way, I assume that Nindiel was rather asking
> for suggestions
> regarding the translation than for comments on the
> "niceness" of the
> quote!
>
> *Erna

I stand reprimanded:) But you've done the Sindarin job
much better than me so I indulged myself with having
an opinion on the niceness:)

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu
Footprints - the Middangeard blog - http://www.middangeard.hu/blog

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aelindis <aon.912734440@...> wrote:

I would guess that a compound of _Annûn_+_hîr_ might rather become
_Annúnhir_, cf. _duinhir_. (In _Annúminas_ assimlation _-nm-_ > _-m-
_ seems to take place.)

But also I would suspect that you would need mutation here as well. Normally,
the second element of a compound word takes soft mutation, but since the first
element _annún_ ends in a nasal, then _hir_ would most likely take a nasal
mutation which would make it _annúnchir_. However, wiser heads than I may have
other opinons.

   Arthur










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Utúlie'n Estel!

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Wow!
That sure is one big post Helge!
I didn't understand several parts of it, most of those parts being
the references to other languages. (I am not incredibly familiar
with the works of Tolkien, though I'm working on that now :) )

If there are existing notes on Khuzdul that will be published, I
think it would be more then wise to stall this project until they
actually have been published. Not only should this greatly help in
the 'development' of the rest of the language, but also should it be
better for the authenticity of the language.

Neo-Sindarin and Neo-Quenya are well accepted to be more or less how
Tolkien imagined it, and I would be honored if Neo-Khuzdul would one
day gain similar status as being a continuation of Tolkien's work.

Has anyone perhaps got information on the release-dates of these
notes on Khuzdul? If so, please share it with me :)

Thanks in advance,
     Zekiel

To be honest I was thinking the same, I personally think that my
mail-signature-quote is a bit better.

As for the Sindarin, which I do not know very much about (just a very
small bit), it seems to me as if it is a quite precise translation.
But keep in mind I have no great knowledge about Sindarin.

SGT Mortis
[...]

Atwe schreef:

>Obviously the opinions will vary what goes for a
>"nice" quote and what not:)
>
[...]

[Intellectual property owners have the right to choose the means and the time,
if ever, to make their material available for public access. This can range from
outright destruction to placing material in the public domain. Trying to divine
someone's motivations in these matters is just not worth discussion. It just is,
and to question these motivations is off-topic mainly because it promotes
flames.
--elimloth, moderator]

"Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote, when discussing
Tolkien's unpublished notes on Khuzdul:

<So a "complete" Khuzdul must really be Pseudo-Khuzdul, with massive amounts
of free invention. True, based on the assumption that the tongues of Men
were influenced by Khuzdul in the remote past, we could draw some vocabulary
from Adûnaic and Taliska (if the grammar of the latter is ever
published...it was announced in VT many years ago)>

At the Tolkien 2005 conference in Birmingham last year, I heard that the
manuscript on Taliska (archived at the Bodleian) has been withdrawn from
public access. Someone speculated hopefully that this was done in
preparation for eventual publication, but no one seemed to know anything
definite. Has anyone here heard anything about such a project, or about the
VT editors' plans to publish these notes after all? It's at the same time
intriguing and frustrating to know that additional papers on several of
Tolkien's languages haven't seen the light of day after all this time.

<Years ago, I asked Bill Welden whether they do, but apparently such
sensitive information cannot be released. (Not that I asked, or will ask,
any questions about the CONTENTS of these notes; I just asked whether they
still EXIST at all, so that we can hope for their eventual publication.)>

I'm sorry, but that seems very odd to me. Why would it be a problem to
release information about any extant unpublished materials? Surely the
knowledge of its existence can't do any harm, nor interfere with any
longterm publication projects? I don't mean to step on anyone's toes, I just
don't understand.

In any case, thanks, Helge, for your thoughtful discussion of developping
Khuzdul.

Cara

In regard to making a full Khuzdul language, ideally, the inventor(s)
would be familiar with Hebrew and Proto-Semitic. Other Primary World
languages could be part of the pallette, especially ones that are
known or suspected to have been consciously and unconsciously used by
Tolkien in his phonoaesthetic compositions.

Looking at a conlang listing, there is at least one other
Khuzdul-based conlang besides the Movie Khuzdul of David Salo:
Natu-Khuzdul <http://www.daereth.net/arda/siewurd/myskhuzdul.htm>.
Also, the Middle-earth role-playing games probably have some
pseudo-Khuzdul words.

When I aspire to niggle on the Tree of the Middle-earth Legendarium, I
humbly request from the Higher Power of my understanding that I be
given guidance from the Hand of Tolkien!

Good luck,
Shane

P.S. While the topic of Khuzdul is on the floor, I was wondering if
there is any indication in known Khuzdul words or names, of the schwa
vowels which Tolkien said were "frequent in Khuzdul" (RotK Appendix
E)? It seems like the vowel would be spelled with an <e> since the
cirth for schwa was "in origin a halved form of" the cirth for /e/,
and also since in Yiddish*, the schwa is thought to be an unstressed
allophone of the /e/ phoneme (and is spelled as such in Yiddish
romanizations and in German). However, unstressed /e/ doesn't seem
especially "frequent" the the published Khuzdul corpus (/u/ and /a/
seem more common). The only two words with unstressed /e/ listed on
the Ardalambion page are <felek> 'hew rock' (vs. <felak> 'chisel') and
<kheled> 'glass'. Would every unstressed /e/ in Khuzdul be a schwa?
Can unstressed /u/ or /a/ be a schwa?

*While Khuzdul seems to be mostly a Hebrew-flavored conlang, the
phonetic system seems to also reflect Yiddish (just as the sounds of
Westron seem to strangely reflect modern English phonetics, with its
dipthongal long /o/ and long /e/, /ch/ and /sh/ phonemes, and schwa
vowel). The uvular /r/ of "some Dwarves" and the /ts/ cirth #58 of the
Mode of Erebor would seem to fit in this Yiddish phonetic scheme.
Tolkien even suggested that Dwarves might have a Yiddish accent.

Okay, I was going to post this in my reply to the ó post, but have
found that it was way too long, and may be in need of it's own post.

At the end of my last post I wanted to say "I thank you all", and
didn't know how to express it.
Here's some questions and thoughts that have come to my mind when I
was studying the word.

Here's what I know so far.
the stem for "thank" or "give thanks" is "hanta" coming from the
Quenya-English dictionary.

I have seen "Len hantanyë". Which means "I thank you".
I get that Len is dative. And I see how hanta is conjugated, with
the added subject "I" added to the end.
This form is not that much different from a spanish phrase with
direct object pronouns in my opinion.

I also have seen "Hannon le" which means "Thank you". I have read
somewhere the the word order in Quenya can be flexible (I may need
that proven right or wrong, some sources out there are a little
flawed). Is it possible to say "Hantanyë len"? I might need to see a
list of possible word orders to get a better understanding of this
if the word order is indeed flexible.

In "Hannon le" I see that the subject "I" is not here in this case
(or maybe it is and I dont know. I'm still a beginner). It appears
the only subject avaliable is "you", thus it's the 2nd person's
nomnative form "le" and not "len". But why has the conjugation
of "Hanta" changed? Maybe it is better for me to say, what verb form
is it, and how it is used?

I saw this on wikipedia:
1st person singular: -n or -nyë (both can be used as subject ending,
only -n as object ending).
Does it have something to do with the -n ending? Also, how is the
object ending used? (Sorry I may need a couple of examples...)

I saw the pronoun list of wikipedia.com and found there was no form
of 2nd person plural. Is there a different way to say "you all"?

Here's yet another question. I have seen "Le hannon a tholel", or "I
thank you for coming" on a webpage (yet, this may or may not be
correct). Does word order change when a prepositional phrase is
involved? Can it, or can it not be "Hannon le a tholel"?
Again I may need an example or two.

In instances where word order is flexible, does the way it is said
add any unlying meaning to the sentence? I know in English the way
we inflect a sentence tells the listener ALOT about what the speaker
is feeling underneath what they say. Seeing how Quenya has a strict
accentuation and stress, I was curious if the word order would be
another way to express one's underlying emotions.

And lastly,
Does anything discussed in here apply to other verbs?


Hannon Le, in advanced. I know I'm kind of time consuming.

P.S. if there's A way to say "Thank you in advanced" and/or "Thank
you once more/again" Let me know! I'd appreciate it ^_^.

The discussion on pronunciation made me remember something. When I did a Quenya
reading at my daughter's wedding 2 yrs ago, I felt myself speaking almost with
an Italian accent. It sounded like that on the recording of the ceremony. My
daughter thought it was interesting. I can speak with several accents as I was a
drama student, but I'm a native Californian!

   Almie,
   Yvonne



Yvonne Van Brimmer
aka.Tamurile Halfelven
"Nai Laivin caluva tielyanna!"

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