> I've been wondering if the listed word  _miquilis_
> (MC:215 qenya).
>
> _miquilis_ is a qenya word, so is there anyone who
> can interpolate it to
> quenya in LOTR style?

hmm not exactly, the original form is miqilis, and the
LOTR quenya is the form we know

> I'm just guessing know. Could the word be in the
> case respective or short
> locative. Does anyone have the whole sentence? And

no, the words in the lexicon are all nominative







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> Is there any one who can recall a record as this.

probably some grammara analysis from Ardalambion or
another site.

I don't remember, but examples I can think of, like
Valinor < vala-land < land of the valar support what
you say

> For example:
> A name for a guild.
> "Hands of Cail" == _Cailo mar_ ==> [make one word
> construction ] ==>
> _Cail+mar_  ==> [fix the consonat shift  -r+l- =
> -ll- ] ==> _Caillar_

the letters combined are l+m, not l+r; Cailmar

> By the way. The meaning of the name is not "Cail's
> [own] pair of hands". The
> context is that theese hands belongs to his loyal
> servants. I mention this
> because maybe it makes a difference.

Of course. Not all languages use 'hands' for
'servants'.

> A last question. The word for "hand"  _mα_ . Is the
> stem  _ma-_ , like "to be"
> _nα_   or is it just  _mα-_. In the lexicon
> "quettaparma quenyallo", there
> are both  _mαryat_  and _mannar_  listed.

maa comes from MAG. We believe that since G has been
dissappeared, it caused a to get long. The stem is
maa. However in some forms of the word, the a is
shortened because it precedes double consonants (it's
a rule in Quenya), like mannar (and not maannar)






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I'm happy to present a new article on Parma Tyelpelassiva

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/

"The Q(u)enya Past Tense"

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/quenya_past_tense.html

It contains a list of all (well, probably most to be honest) attested past
tenses from the early Qenya Lexicon (QL)to forms published recently in
'Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals' and illustrates how Tolkien's ideas
about the past tenses changed in time, but also how remarkably stable many
features of the system outlined in the QL remain over the years - there is
no evidence for a substantial revision of the system, although there are
many changes in detail.

While the aim of the article is not to derive a past tense system for
usage in Neo-Quenya, it will become apparent that Helge's classification
as outlined in his Quenya course: "The system set out above [i.e. suffix
_-ne_ for derived verbs and nasal infixion for stem verbs] is what I shall
consider the "regular" way of forming the past tense of a verb in Quenya."
does not survive confrontation with the actual evidence. It will be foun
that the material of the Etymologies is somewhat peculiar in the fact that
it emphasizes the role of nasal infixion over vowel lengthening - but this
is not so in either pre- or post-Etymologies material, in fact some forms
discussed by Helge (like _karne_ as past tense of _karin_) appear with a
different past tense in later sources. Likewise, while suffix _-ne_ and
nasal infixion are important ways of forming the past tense, the number of
attested examples is not so much greater than the number of attested
examples of other past tenses so that this could be called 'regular' (note
that Tolkien even calls another formation 'regular'). Like in
Noldorin/Sindarin, there is ample reason to assume that Tolkien never had
a very simple scenario in mind.

I hope people will find this compilation of forms useful even if they
don't agree with the conclusions. In an article of such lengths, omissions
and errors are unavoidable - I'd appreciate if these could be brought to
my attention along with verb forms not (yet) included in the article.

* Thorsten

--- Palatinus <elfiness@...> wrote:

> > I've been wondering if the listed word  _miquilis_
> > (MC:215 qenya).
> >
> > _miquilis_ is a qenya word, so is there anyone who
> > can interpolate it to
> > quenya in LOTR style?
>
> hmm not exactly, the original form is miqilis, and
> the
> LOTR quenya is the form we know

Are you sure? The word comes from Monsters and
Critics, and is quite Qenya in my opinion; moreover,
this is plural (glossed "kisses"); I do not have PE15
here with me, but I seem to recall similar plural
formations in Tolkien's English-Qenya Dictionary
published in that issue.

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu
Footprints - the Middangeard blog - http://www.middangeard.hu/blog

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Rainalcar skrev:

> Also, what is ky found in the word Erukyerme? I didn't find
> that sound (palatalized k?) anywhere else. Does it turns up
> only in Valinorean Quenya, or is it present in late ME
> Quenya as well?

I have come to the conclusion that _ky_ is either an alternative
spelling to _ty_ -- both designating a mediopalatal stop --
or a typo, since there were both palatalized k and palatalized
t in Common Eldarin.

--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

> Rainalcar skrev:
>
>> Also, what is ky found in the word Erukyerme? I didn't find
>> that sound (palatalized k?) anywhere else. Does it turns up
>> only in Valinorean Quenya, or is it present in late ME
>> Quenya as well?
>
> I have come to the conclusion that _ky_ is either an alternative
> spelling to _ty_ -- both designating a mediopalatal stop --
> or a typo, since there were both palatalized k and palatalized
> t in Common Eldarin.
>

The word is found in UT, and C. Tolkien didn't suggest a possibility it is a
typo. Also, the word is referred to the Nuumenoreans, that is the beginning,
and maybe at least also the middle part of the Second Age... Isn't that much
later than the Common Eldarin stage?
What do you mean that it is an alternative spelling? That it sounds the same
as ty? That seems ackward to me, not sure...

But to follow the thought, what about the sound my? It is not listed as a
Third Age Quenya sound in any Course (also not in mine, but I didn't notice
it by now), so what is it's status? And it is much more common than ky,
there is at least emya, himya, imya, lamya and lemya...

I posted a drinking song not too long ago, in just its text format. However,
Kris Kowal with his magical touch has improved on it, transliterated it to
tengwar and is hosting the sound file that supposes to accompany it.

http://cixar.com/~kris.kowal/quenya/alasse-limpesse.html

Thanks to Kris again for hosting and improving.

-Edin Najetovic

Aiya!

As far I was able to understand, two different systems of 1pl pronouns are
circulating in the Neo-Quenya speaking/writing community. One is based on
Helge Fauskanger's course, the other - on Thorsten Renk's course.

HF: incl. -lve, excl. -lme, du. -mme?
TR: incl. -lme, excl. -mme, du. -lve.

How can I be sure you understand me correctly if I write smth in Q, and you
don't know what system I use?

With respect to both scholars,
-- Yitzik

> How can I be sure you understand me correctly if I
> write smth in Q, and you
> don't know what system I use?

that's why some say that Quenya was not made for
understanding and can't be standardized






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> As far I was able to understand, two different systems of 1pl pronouns
> are
> circulating in the Neo-Quenya speaking/writing community. One is based on
> Helge Fauskanger's course, the other - on Thorsten Renk's course.
>
> HF: incl. -lve, excl. -lme, du. -mme?
> TR: incl. -lme, excl. -mme, du. -lve.

It is certainly incorrect that one system is based on Helge's course and
the other on mine - they are both based on Tolkien's ideas about the
pronominal system (which changed over time). It's not (at least in this
case) that we'd make up something here for Neo-Quenya - changes over time
are a genuine property of Tolkien's languages and quite often
contradictions are attested.

> How can I be sure you understand me correctly if I write smth in Q, and
> you
> don't know what system I use?

You can't (but of course you can be aware of Tolkien's Quenya and check
  from there every possibility...)

* Thorsten

Palatinus wrote:

> neleque [as a word for 13] seems decimal to me... yunquenta seems more
duodecimal

Hm. Actually I wonder if it the duodecimal forms would not rather
incorporate _rasta_ as the word for "twelve" (compare the stem RΑSAT in the
Etymologies), whereas _yunque_ is the word for "twelve" in the decimal
system.

_Yurasta_ "24", mentioned in a footnote in PE14:17, is definitely a
duodecimal form -- the equivalent of "twenty" in the decimal system. So
maybe "13" would be _mine rasta_ (one + twelve) in the duodecimal system.

_Yunquenta_, which is simply "one beyond _yunque_", would belong to the
decimal system if we assign the word _yunque_ "12" to that system.

(Please notice that I don't know if anything in VT48 actually throws more
light on these questions, since my twice-paid copy still has not
materialized in my mailbox.)

- HKF

In two of my (secondary) sources, ciuran is glossed as
'new sun' or 'new moon after solstice'. Which is
right?

AFAIK it occurs in VT48:18






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Thorsten Renk <trenk@...> wrote:

   > How can I be sure you understand me correctly if I write smth in Q, and
> you
> don't know what system I use?

You can't (but of course you can be aware of Tolkien's Quenya and check
from there every possibility...)

   Or, do what I do and place a note in the beginning of your piece explaining
which system you are employing. Even if the reader perfers to use the other
system in his or her own writing, he or she will understand enough to make the
mental translation from one system to the other. And frankly, I think most
readers will simply translate all three endings as "we" regardless, rather than
differentiating as in: "Elendil said to Sauron, "We (exclusive or is that
inclusive?) don't like you."

   Arthur


Utϊlie'n Estel!

---------------------------------

  What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I'm back!

After a long hiatus, I feel able to tackle my translation project
once more.  My original post is somewhere in the bowels of the
archives.  To recap, I'm attempting to translate the poem on the base
of the Statue of Liberty into Quenya.  I chose to put the poem into
(hopefully graceful) prose instead of attempting to impose rhyme and
meter because I know that that level of skill is not yet mine.  I am
using the lists for attested Quenya and Quenya neologisms that are
linked at Ardalambion and I have already had a lot of help from
Elfling as well.

For some reason, it has been easier to translate the
poem "backwards."  Here are the last three lines of "The New
Colossus":

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Here is my translation:

_ . . . asto ϊminda ostolyar ϊnσtimλ.  Α menta ninna sinar,
marelσrar, hlαpune; ortea calmanya arandon nσrentava._

And here is my translation retranslated:

  . . . the disregarded dust of your countless cities.  Send to me
these, the homeless, blown upon the wind; I raise my lamp beside the
great gate of their land.

I would like to run this bit by you folks one more time to make sure
that I didn't commit a howler.  I hope to have the entire poem
translated Real Soon Now.  Thanks!

Hello,

an interesting piece for translation (I confess I've
not known it before) and certainly worth looking at.

--- promenadeofthedeer <riverbeauty@...>
wrote:


>
> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
> Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
> I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
>
> Here is my translation:
>
> _ . . . asto οΏ½minda ostolyar οΏ½nοΏ½timοΏ½.  οΏ½
menta ninna
> sinar,
> marelοΏ½rar, hlοΏ½pune; ortea calmanya arandon
> nοΏ½rentava._
>
> And here is my translation retranslated:
>
>  . . . the disregarded dust of your countless
> cities.  Send to me
> these, the homeless, blown upon the wind; I raise my
> lamp beside the
> great gate of their land.

...wretched refuse... almost a tautology, since
'wretch' has the original meaning 'exile, ban'. Anyway
I might imagine several possibilities here, like 'ΓΊna
hecil' - "destitute exile", 'lemba hehtaina' -
"forsaken leftover" etc.; not to say your choice is
bad, although I do not get 'ΓΊminda' quite clearly.
'Á menta ninna sinar' - might even contract 'Áninna
menta sinar'
'hlapu-' as "tempest-tost" is frankly a bit too
peaceful to me, at least the shape of the verb has
much more floating connotations for me rather than
something associated with the violence of a storm. But
I may be mistaken. *alaco-narcaina "storm-rent" is
maybe a bit too farfetched, though.

I think the stem of _mar_ may be _mard-_, so possibly
*mardelΓ³ra.
From 'ortea' I miss a 1st person suffix.
To fuse the preposition _ara_ with _andon_ this way is
confusing IMHO; in this shape the word suggests the a
meaning associated with a king or kingdom; a
preposition is a preposition after all, not a prefix.
Of course you could contract with an apostrophe
*ar'andon.
Why not translate 'golden' as it is?

I like the piece and the translation though, hope I
could give some ideas to refine.

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu
Footprints - the Middangeard blog - http://www.middangeard.hu/blog

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I wish to know how we could say in Quenya

grid (perhaps _natsλ_, _raimλ_ but I intend something solid, like in
metal...)

answer (vb and name)

soluce...

I've no idea...

Thanks in advance for your suggestions...

Evenstar



http:www/ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes

> I'm attempting to translate the poem on the base
> of the Statue of Liberty into Quenya.  I chose to put the poem
into
> (hopefully graceful) prose instead of attempting to impose rhyme
and
> meter because I know that that level of skill is not yet mine.

A very noble task indeed, and a well chosen piece.

> For some reason, it has been easier to translate the
> poem "backwards."

Whatever works!

> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
> Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
> I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

> _ . . . asto ϊminda ostolyar ϊnσtimλ.  Α menta ninna sinar,
> marelσrar, hlαpune; ortea calmanya arandon nσrentava._

>  . . . the disregarded dust of your countless cities.  Send to me
> these, the homeless, blown upon the wind; I raise my lamp beside
the
> great gate of their land.

The only things with the Quenya itself that I would correct are
adding possession to the 'countless cities' of their 'disregarded
dust' (though this is a looser translation of unprominent). Probably
use the Genitive, since this shows point of origin. 'ostolyaron'
or 'uunootimeon' I suppose depending on the last declinable word
rule (though I would double check these forms!). The stem of 'mar'
is 'mard-'. Thus forming 'mardeloorar'. 'hlaapune' I would
interprete as 'it blew across the...', the pas. part. would
be 'hlaapuina' I believe, to describe it as 'blown...' (though,
again I would double check these!). Also, I would use a first person
ending (-n or -nye) after 'ornea', otherwise it takes on a third
person connotation, though I suppose it may be understood in context!

From another standpoint (and this is where grammar ends and opinion
begins), I would use the aorist instead of the present tense form of
the word 'ortea'. 'ortea' suggests 'am raising', making it seem as
though she would stop soon, whereas aorist 'orta' would
suggest 'raise' as more general (adding the first person -n, of
course). I would simply use 'laure' for 'gold' in front of
gate 'laure aldonna (-nna-to/towards)'. Also I don't understand 'of
their land'. Who's land? The original implies America I think
(though that's simply an opinion!), whereas yours almost suggests
their land. The golden gate means the gate leading into the promised
land, I should think. I feel like the whole phrase is unnecessary.
All this is, however, the author's preference.

Respectfully,

Bob Powers

P.S. I respectfully disagree with you, Mr. Ferencz! I like the
choice of _hlapu_ to mean 'tempest tossed'. Though the
litteral 'blown about in the wind' is more "peaceful" than 'tempest
tossed' it does, in my opinion suggest a deep sense of wandering and
loneliness in the 'wretched homeless' that I greatly love. Praise to
the translator!!!

Thorsten Renk recently presented an article on  "The Q(u)enya Past Tense":

http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/quenya_past_tense.html

As Thorsten noted, he has collected what must be at least a near-complete
list of all past tense formations occurring in the published corpus. Nice
job!

Thorsten wrote:

> While the aim of the article is not to derive a past tense system for
usage in Neo-Quenya, it will become apparent that Helge's classification as
outlined in his Quenya course: "The system set out above [i.e. suffix _-ne_
for derived verbs and nasal infixion for stem verbs] is what I shall
consider the "regular" way of forming the past tense of a verb in Quenya."
does not survive confrontation with the actual evidence.

The quotes around "regular" are there for a reason; I use the term in a
rather relative sense. Some forms that are synchronically "irregular" are
entirely "regular" from a diachronic perspective, for instance. (A single
example: Synchronically it is not obvious why the pa.t. of _rer-_ "sow"
should be _rende_ rather than **_rerne_ or even **_rιre_, but _rende_ is
entirely regular if you take into account the original root RED. A person
studying Quenya from a synchronic perspective -- and that probably
describes most fresh students -- could however think of _rende_ as an
"irregular" form in the sense that must be learnt separately, as contrasted
with the simple suffixing applied in a pa.t. formation like _tirne_
"watched" vs. the verbal stem _tir-_ "watch".)

> It will be foun[d] that the material of the Etymologies is somewhat
peculiar in the fact that it emphasizes the role of nasal infixion over
vowel lengthening - but this is not so in either pre- or post-Etymologies
material, in fact some forms discussed by Helge (like _karne_ as past tense
of _karin_) appear with a different past tense in later sources.

_Karne_ obviously provides no example of nasal infixion. Yet I agree that
one of the unsettled questions has to do with the distribution of the
_lαve_-type of past tense vs. the _karne_-type. In the case of primary
verbs, the past tense formation involving lengthening of the stem-vowel and
the ending _-e_ seems to be competing with the "nasal pasts" involving
either the suffix _-ne_ or nasal infixion and the suffix _-e_ (maybe two
variations on the same theme, since a form like _mante_ "ate" can be
analyzed as suffixed *_matne_ with metathesis to eliminate an impossible
cluster).

Clearly Tolkien himself experimented with different ideas; we have _kαre_
and _karne_ competing as the past tense "did". In one of the early
wordlists both are even listed side by side, so maybe this is a question of
both-and rather than either-or.

> Likewise, while suffix _-ne_ and nasal infixion are important ways of
forming the past tense, the number of attested examples is not so much
greater than the number of attested examples of other past tenses so that
this could be called 'regular' (note that Tolkien even calls another
formation 'regular').

You're thinking about _oante_? Yes, this is "regular" in Tolkien's
diachronic perspective, though hardly so from a synchronic perspective. See
above: words like "regular" and "irregular" must be used in a relative
rather than an absolute sense. I'll return to _oante_ below.

Making statistics based on forms actually attested in our corpus can be
misleading. Much of our material is not Quenya text but rather wordlists
and the like, and the past tense forms explicitly listed there are likely
to be the ones that are somehow peculiar: the less-than-straightforward
formations are probably "overrepresented" in our corpus.

When only one form of the verb is listed, we must assume that the past
tense has a form Tolkien considered so simple and straightforward that it
did not have to be mentioned separately (in the case of A-stems, this
likely means that the suffix -ne is to be applied).

Our few examples of verbs in actual Quenya text are therefore very
valuable. For instance: In the Etymologies, no past tense is listed for
_orta-_ "rise, raise", suggesting that this verb is not very full of
surprises. In Namαrie we observe its past tense _ortane_. This provides
some basis for believing that the same pattern applies to most verbs in
_-ta_, unless Tolkien explicitly says otherwise -- and other examples point
in the same direction.

There are exceptions, of course. Thorsten writes:

> Nasal infixion on the derivational suffix -ta is said to be 'regular' for
a verb of this type in the discussion of φante [pa.t. of _auta_] in WJ:366.
It is somewhat unclear to what this class of verbs might refer to, but in
addition with the example keante one might gues that verbs involving a
diphthong or vowel followed by a single stop only might readily allow this
pattern

The reference to "a -ta verb of this class", of which _oante_ is a
"regular" pa.t. (WJ:366), probably has nothing to do with any diphthongs or
vowels in the initial syllable of the verbal stem. I believe the "class" in
question are verbs that originally had an extra vowel _between_ the initial
syllable and the ending -ta. _Auta_ goes back on an original _awatβ-_.
After the syncope of the second A, we had _aw'ta_ = _auta_ in Quenya. But
the pa.t. of _awatβ-_ was _awantκ_, and the nasal infix created a cluster
_nt_ before which syncope of A could not occur. So we have _oante_ in
Quenya, and likewise _keante_ "lay" for *_kayantκ_, the pa.t. of an
original *_kayatβ-_ "lie" (by itself producing Q _caita_, seen in Namαrie).

This "class" of verbs is thus no different from such an early QL form as
_qapta-_ "exchange", pa.t. _qapante_ (not **_qaptane_, presumably because
the older form is meant to be *_kwapatβ_ rather than **_kwaptβ_). In the
case of _oante_ and _keante_ there is an extra phonological complication:
_awa_ and _aya_ become _oa_ and _ea_. But this, as I see it, is quite
incidental and has nothing to do with the "class" of verbs as such. I think
Tolkien's point in WJ:366 is that verbs in -tβ that originally had a second
sundσma between the root and the ending regularly preserves this vowel in
the past tense, where the verb ends in _-nte_.

Thorsten later writes: "It is however worth noting that Tolkien calls φante
as past tense of auta- 'regular' for a verb of this type (WJ:366) from
which naturally follows that there is a type of derived verbs which forms
past tense regularly by means of nasal infixion, although most derived
verbs among the attested late examples form past tense with a suffix -ne."
I think this "type of derived verbs" is the "class" I attempted to identify
above. Already in the QL it coexisted with the simpler formations, and Q&E
would suggest that it was never abandoned.

Well. "The verb is very sketchy still," one of Tolkien's characters
observes (I think it was Lowdham, but I can't find the reference though I
just spent 20 minutes looking for it!) Maybe we have come a little further
now, but there is surely more to be discovered, and I welcome Thorsten's
contribution.

- HKF

Evenstar <evenstar62@...> wrote:

> I wish to know how we could say in Quenya
grid (perhaps _natsλ_, _raimλ_ but I intend something solid, like in
metal...)

_Tinconatse_? :)

> answer (vb and name)

If we start from Sindarin _dangweth_, the Q cognate would have to be
something very much like _nangwes-_ (older _nangweth-). Adding the
abstract/gerundial ending _-ie_ could give *_nangwesie_ "answer" as a noun.

> soluce...

Er...do you mean solace?

- HKF

>Er...do you mean solace?
>
>
>
No, I think it's not the word I whished to say, I'm afraid  ;-) ... I
intended "solution", when one resolves an enigma...


>answer (vb and name)
>
>

>If we start from Sindarin _dangweth_, the Q cognate would have to be
>something very much like _nangwes-_ (older _nangweth-). Adding the
>abstract/gerundial ending _-ie_ could give *_nangwesie_ "answer" as a
noun.soluce...
>


And how can we conjugate such a verb?? I don't know a verb ending with -s.

If we do a verb like _nangwet-_, could it be conjugated like _maquet-_??????

Evenstar


http://www.ambar-eldaron.com
Le Monde des Elfes




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> The quotes around "regular" are there for a reason; I use the term in a
> rather relative sense. Some forms that are synchronically "irregular" are
> entirely "regular" from a diachronic perspective, for instance. (A single
> example: Synchronically it is not obvious why the pa.t. of _rer-_ "sow"
> should be _rende_ rather than **_rerne_ or even **_rΓ©re_, but _rende_ is
> entirely regular if you take into account the original root RED. A person
> studying Quenya from a synchronic perspective -- and that probably
> describes most fresh students -- could however think of _rende_ as an
> "irregular" form in the sense that must be learnt separately, as
> contrasted
> with the simple suffixing applied in a pa.t. formation like _tirne_
> "watched" vs. the verbal stem _tir-_ "watch".)

That is of course true, and I did not mean to object to this particular
usage of 'irregular' as examplified by _rer- > rende_. One could say that
there are no irregular forms, only those for which we are not aware of the
rules (and I might add as a side note that I'm memorizing some surprising
Finnish noun inflection patterns by reconstructing Old Finnish ancestor
forms - no clue if they are correct, but it makes life a lot easier).

Rather, I object that the same classification has _lΓ‘ve_ as an irregular
form. Here, the past tense can be well understood and constructed without
knowledge of the CE root (which is not the case for _rende_). Furthermore,
the formation is not 'rare' in any sense, about half of all attested past
tenses in post-Etymologies sources (the impressive number of 3...) show
this pattern.  Yet  Helge feels that the form is sufficiently irregular to
suggest e.g. to emend for the verb _tul-_ "past tense _tΓΊlΓ«_ "came" in
LR:47 and SD:246; read perhaps _*tullΓ«_ in LotR-style Quenya" in his
Quettaparma. The classification suggests that there is a vast majority of
attested verbs showing nasal infixion and only a handful showing vowel
lengthening - but while the latter is true, there is only a handful of
verbs showing nasal infixion either.

I would agree that _keante_ and _oante_ appear as irregular for most
students - but not because of the way their past tense is formed but only
because of the sound shifts leading to the diphthong. From e.g. _orta-_, a
past tense _oronte_ could readily be constructed and understood from the
Aorist - just repeat the root vowel and do nasal infixion on the remaining
ending.

So, while I can see that Helge's and Tolkien's definition of irregular is
different, I cannot see how this in general supports Helge's scheme.


> Making statistics based on forms actually attested in our corpus can be
> misleading. Much of our material is not Quenya text but rather wordlists
> and the like, and the past tense forms explicitly listed there are likely
> to be the ones that are somehow peculiar: the less-than-straightforward
> formations are probably "overrepresented" in our corpus.

> When only one form of the verb is listed, we must assume that the past
> tense has a form Tolkien considered so simple and straightforward that it
> did not have to be mentioned separately (in the case of A-stems, this
> likely means that the suffix -ne is to be applied).

That is one of the reasons I try to present material from different
sources in different sections such as not to introduce a bias into the
statistics by mixing sources. We don't actually know what past tenses
Tolkien had in mind when he didn't write one - my guess it that he worked
it out once in the QL (where we have really many forms) and as a rule kept
approximately that scheme (rather than Helge's), but of course I do not
know.

The inverse, i.e. that Tolkien only wrote a past tense when it wasn't
obvious doesn't seem to be true - derived verbs in _-ne_ e.g. are common
both in the Etymologies and in post-Etymology sources. Besides, Helge
doesn't seem to believe it himself - by that type of reasoning, the number
of nasal infixion for primary verbs would indicate that these are the
exceptions and that for any other primary verb another mechanism (vowel
lengthening?) would be the 'obvious' choice - this is as far from Helge's
suggestion as it gets, and verbs from the Etymologies are frequently mixed
with verbs from other sources in the past tense section of Helge's Quenya
course.

> Our few examples of verbs in actual Quenya text are therefore very
> valuable. For instance: In the Etymologies, no past tense is listed for
> _orta-_ "rise, raise", suggesting that this verb is not very full of
> surprises. In NamΓ‘rie we observe its past tense _ortane_. This provides
> some basis for believing that the same pattern applies to most verbs in
> _-ta_, unless Tolkien explicitly says otherwise -- and other examples
> point
> in the same direction.

So why doesn't from the same argument follow that _lΓ‘ve_ (which also
occurs only as 1st person in the Etymologies without a past tense) is the
correct template for primary verbs? Instead, while _ortane_ is here used
to support the pattern of what is regular and what is not, _lΓ‘ve_ is
dismissed as irregular.

> This "class" of verbs is thus no different from such an early QL form as
> _qapta-_ "exchange", pa.t. _qapante_ (not **_qaptane_, presumably because
> the older form is meant to be *_kwapatΓ’_ rather than **_kwaptΓ’_). In the
> case of _oante_ and _keante_ there is an extra phonological complication:
> _awa_ and _aya_ become _oa_ and _ea_. But this, as I see it, is quite
> incidental and has nothing to do with the "class" of verbs as such. I
> think Tolkien's point in WJ:366 is that verbs in -tΓ’ that originally had
> a second
> sundΓ³ma between the root and the ending regularly preserves this vowel in
> the past tense, where the verb ends in _-nte_.

Well - it is obvious that this must be the origin for the historical
development of the form. But - apart from knowing the CE form, can we
recognize the verbs from some other characteristic development? It seems
striking to me that the verb list in the QL doesn't include an example
with a stem ending in a nasal - because for e.g. _lampa-_ 'to hit, beat'
we get pa.t. _lampane_ (PE12:51) - so there seems some merit to me to the
idea that the repetition of nasals as in _**lamampe_ is not favoured.
Likewise, two-syllables before the derivational ending don't get nasal
infixion, so we have _pelekta-_ 'to hew' with pa.t. _pelektane, pelenke_
(PE12:73) and not _**pelekente_. Is it accidental that both examples in
later sources are of the type "diphthong + ta" and don't involve a
consonant cluster which needs splitting any more? I don't know.

So, my impression is that the extension of the sundΓ³ma is nothing but a CE
variant, and that there are in fact other rules which determine when this
variant is favoured and when not, and I think it would be worthwhile for
Neo-Quenya purposes to figure them out.

* Thorsten

I've added a new appendix to my Quenya course (and revised some of the
other appendices just a little). The new section, titled "Words We Don't
Quite Know How to Inflect", discusses some problematic words:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qappend.rtf

(scroll down to find the new section)

Some of these problems (and their potential solutions) have been discussed
on this list as well. What is the perfect tense of _feuya-_ "abhor"? How
can case endings like _-in_ (plural dative) be added to a word like _Valie_
when Quenya doesn't have _ei_? What is the genitive form of nouns like
_hroa_ "body" or _loa_ "year", when the ending _-o_ displaces a final _-a_
and (say) _lo'o_ is not a very probable word?

As yet there are no definite answers or solutions, but I try to at least
identify and discuss the problems.

- HKF

You must've been reading my mind! I was about to post a question about the
possible genitive form of _hroa_ myself because I'd come across it in a
translation and wasn't sure what would be appropriate. I had come up with _hrσ_
on my own but didn't really like it and even _hruo_ with dissimulation of the
initial -o wouldn't work because it isn't a long -o. I think I like _hravo_ if
only because Quenya seems to prefer polysyllabic words more than it likes
monosyllabic words. And don't we already have the attested example of _rα_ with
its declined form _rav-_? So this would make sense.

   It will be interesting to see what others think of your solutions to these
tricky problems.

   Arthur


Utϊlie'n Estel!

---------------------------------
  Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and
used cars.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've done an attempt for translating the ring-inscription into Quenya,
please give me your comments on it.

Ash nazg durbatulϋk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulϋk agh
burzum-ishi krimpatul.

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them
all and in the Darkness bind them.

Minλ corma heru tλ ilya, minλ corma hiruva tλ, minλ corma tulta tλ ilya
ar mν morniλ avalerya tλ.


--
SGT Mortis
The Art Of Warfare <http://www.theartofwarfare.net> - BF
The Gryphons

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."

Arthur Boccaccio wrote, regarding my new Quenya course appendix
(http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qappend.rtf):

> You must've been reading my mind! I was about to post a question about
the possible genitive form of _hroa_ myself because I'd come across it in a
translation and wasn't sure what would be appropriate.

Well, there is hardly any mind-reading involved; I wrote most of this
months ago, but somehow I didn't get around to finishing and uploading it
before now.

> I had come up with _hrσ_ on my own but didn't really like it and even
_hruo_ with dissimulation of the initial -o wouldn't work because it isn't
a long -o.

Are you thinking of the name _Huore_ derived from _Khτ-gore_? (Etym, entry
GOR) I'm not sure it is the long vowel that triggers the dissimilation
here. In Sindarin, long vowels tend to change their quality (including a
development from τ to ϋ), but in Quenya, the original quality of the vowels
is mostly intact, except in final position (where primitive short -u, -i
become -o, -e, irrelevant for our purpose).

*_Hruo_ as an alternative genitive form of _hroa_ is actually an
interesting theory that I didn't think of; it could deserve mentioning in
the Appendix. But given the etymological form _srawβ_, I think *_hravo_
(for *_srawβ-ho_) has to be my best guess.

- HKF

I wrote, regarding words for "answer":

>If we start from Sindarin _dangweth_, the Q cognate would have to be
something very much like _nangwes-_ (older _nangweth-). Adding the
abstract/gerundial ending _-ie_ could give *_nangwesie_ "answer" as a noun.

Evenstar writes:

> And how can we conjugate such a verb?? I don't know a verb ending with
-s.
> If we do a verb like _nangwet-_, could it be conjugated like
_maquet-_??????

Well, *_nangwes-_ for older _ndangweth-_ it would probably have to be. But
we could see *_nangwente_ in the pa.t., since aspirates (like _th_
originally is) may historically become unaspirated following another
consonant.

Compare Tolkien hinting in the entry PHIR in Etym that _ilfirin_ "immortal"
would have been **_ilpirin_ if it hadn't been for analogy (apparently) with
the unprefixed form _firin_.

- HKF

Hello, I am new here and thought I should introduce myself a little
bit. I've been meaning to have a go at learning either Sindarin or
Quenya for some time, but have always found the lack of time a huge
limitation. REcently however, I've had a good incentive to get
started, as I am getting married in May and would like an inscription
engraved into the inside of my wedding band.

I have done some research, and quickly discovered that picking
something appropriate and accurate is not easy, because there is a lot
of misinformation out there on some sites.


use the word aoristHello, I am new here and thought I should introduce
myself a little bit. I've been meaning to have a go at learning either
Sindarin or Quenya for some time, but have always found the lack of
time a huge limitation. It would be cool to one day be able to travel
to the States and enrol in a course that actually teaches these
languages, however I lack the funds to do that, and so must resort to
doing it the hard way.

I took the advice listed in
http://www.geocities.com/therealteng/guide.html and went to several
sites to see if I can track down the right words I am looking for,
including Ardalambion, which I confess has been one of my primary
sources, as I lack the actual books to look through myself. I soon
realised picking up this language isn't as easy as I thought (silly
me) but once I read through the Quenya course and felt I understood
some of it a lot more and so decided to try my hand at translating a
phrase into Quenya. Once my phrase was chosen, (and with the help of a
friend who's got a bit more experience with languages) I was able with
her assistance, to piece together parts of a phrase written in Quenya.

The English is:
I love to see your eyes shine when you laugh

The Sindarin seems to have two (three) variations to it that I think
is due to earlier and later forms of Sindarin, or perhaps an error on
someone's part:
:- Melin ceni hin lξn sνla i 'eladhach

Or:-
Informal: Melin cened chξn gξn sνlar ir gladhach
Formal: Melin cened chξn lξn sνlar ir gladhal

Can anyone tell me which is the more accurate for the Third Age?


Regardless, my attempt to render it into Quenya is as follows:
:- Melinyet cenien hendulya calair νrλ lαlλalyλ (or lαlλal? It appears
to be up to the speaker whether they use l or lyλ.)

We chose the aorist tense for 'shine' because it expresses general,
timeless truths, which this phrase seems to be. We also chose cal-
over sil- because sil tends to refer more to shining white, or am I
wrong there?

Also, we were unsure about 'laugh'. Lαlλalyλ is the present tense for,
'you laugh', correct? But if we have, 'to shine' as the aorist then
should we also not have laugh as the same, in which case it's lαlλlyλ
I believe. It's about then that my brain gave out and I thought I
should take a rest. So, before my eyeballs pop out, can people tell me
if I am close to being accurate before I continue onwards?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer me. *hugs*

Ava

I saw this word on a website while I was studying plurals..

"tyellλ", the author said that it was irregular and comes out as.
"tyeller" and that meaning of the singular form was "grade".

I looked aournd for a dictionary but could not find the word. Does
anyone know what type of grade tyellλ means? Is it a grade you get on
an assignment, or the grade of a material? Or maybe something else?

Here's the name of the site too if anyone is interested:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/printthread.php?t=7514

Any help would be appreciated.

Quoting Rinji HalfElf <julia_rose_us@...>:

> I saw this word on a website while I was studying plurals..
>
> "tyellλ", the author said that it was irregular and comes out as.
> "tyeller" and that meaning of the singular form was "grade".
>
> I looked aournd for a dictionary but could not find the word. Does
> anyone know what type of grade tyellλ means? Is it a grade you get on
> an assignment, or the grade of a material? Or maybe something else?
>
> Here's the name of the site too if anyone is interested:
> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/printthread.php?t=7514
>
> Any help would be appreciated.

Tyellλ is attested in Appendix E of LotR. It is related to the tengwar.

--- quote from Amanye Tenceli http://at.mansbjorkman.net/tengwar.htm
By the end of the Third Age it had become the custom to display the
primary tengwar sorted by appearance in a table with four columns (in
Quenya: tιmar, "series") and six rows (tyeller, "grades"). In such a
table each tιma would correspond to one point of articulation, and
each tyelle to a method of articulation.
---

-----
Jussi Hattara
http://www.tenerdo.org/

This may seem like a no-brainer question, but I'm not as aware in the
phonological shifts with vowels as with consonants.

If I were to try and say something like "of meetings (pl.)" ending in
-ie, I assume I would add -iva to the singular form _yomenie_. For the
singular, I comprehend _yomenieeva_, but with the plural, how would
the vowels change when -ie + -iva occurs? My first guess would be that
it becomes -iiva; I am sure -ieiva can't happen and the -ei- would
contract somehow. Am I close?

- M. Dinse