--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "trueheartbh" <trueheartbh@y...> wrote:
>
> hello to whom ever takes an interest in this text. i am a long time
> tolkien fan and just now taking up to learning the language or
> languages. previous efforts to read and learn from his novels have
> failed me, or perhaps i failed them.either way i seek others to help
> me in this. some one to offer advise when needed or that is willing to
> converse in tolkiens gift so to speak. i am a serious learner type and
> i am serious about this. please feel free to email me or contact me .
> i defianatly appreciate any help or guidance.
>

Start with Ardalambion: http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/. It's a pretty
comprehensive site, and there's a downloadable Quenya course.

I believe there are Sindarin courses available as well. Perhaps
someone else here knows about them.

H:.F:.

I'm trying to come up with an accurate translation of the phrase:
"Nodos Virtute Resolvo" (I untie knots by virtue)

_Vëarenen ilnutin nardar_

_Vëarenen_ is instrumental of *_vëarë_ ("manliness"), as seen in
_almarë_ (alma + -rë). ("blessedness").

Would _ilnutin_ be acceptable for "I untie"?

Greetings Florian,

Congratulations on the relaunch. The link to the audio files isn't
working: http://www.ellammath.de/start.htm

H:.F:.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Florian Dombach" <lothenon@s...> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> After quite some time of absence of my "Mellyn-in-Edhil" site I am
> happy to announce that a new version has just been launched.[...]

--- hirifeo <hirifeo@...> wrote:

> I'm trying to come up with an accurate translation
> of the phrase:
> "Nodos Virtute Resolvo" (I untie knots by virtue)
>
> _Vëarenen ilnutin nardar_
>
> _Vëarenen_ is instrumental of *_vëarë_
> ("manliness"), as seen in
> _almarë_ (alma + -rë). ("blessedness").
>
> Would _ilnutin_ be acceptable for "I untie"?

It depends on which era of negation you take as a
starting point:-) Besides I am not sure of negation of
"tie" would work in all languages in the sense of
"resolve"; there might be other solutions, like the
use of the prefix nan- "backwards" if you insist on
using _nut-_ or what about the root LEK- "loose,
slacken" Q _lehta-_?

Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "hirifeo" <hirifeo@e...> wrote:
> Congratulations on the relaunch. The link to the audio files isn't
> working: http://www.ellammath.de/start.htm

That is because start.htm so far IS the audio files site ;)

Greets,
Florian

================================
Þis kyng lay at Tirion vpon Tvna,
With mony luflych lorde, ledez of þe best,
And þe louelokkest ladies þat euer lif haden,
Al watz þis fayre folk in her first age.
================================
lothenon@...
sindarin.de | ellammath.de

The page is www.geocities.com/rainalkar. It is in croatian language; you
will find the recordings just above the links (where the size in kilobytes
is written). I have my own view and opinion of this first attempt of mine to
pronounce quenya (only, for now), but that will await your judgment ;) You
can also comment anything else you spot on the page, which is just started.

"Rainalcar" wrote:

> The page is www.geocities.com/rainalkar. It is in croatian
> language; you will find the recordings just above the links (where
> the size in kilobytes is written). I have my own view and opinion
> of this first attempt of mine to pronounce quenya (only, for now),
> but that will await your judgment ;) You can also comment anything
> else you spot on the page, which is just started.

Your pronunciation is very good, in fact almost perfect. There are
only a few problems:

1) The combination _qu_ should be pronounced as a rounded velar
unvoiced stop, i.e. [k] and [w] simultaniously, not one after another.

2) You forget to pronounce _é_ close than short _e_.

3) When _h_ is between vowels, it should be pronounced [x], as in
German _Bach_. To me, your medial _h_ sounded a little bit too weak.

4) You sometimes lengthen stressed short vowels, e.g. _Eru_ as
**_Eeru_ or _enyalien_ as **_enyaalien_.

5) You forget to lightly palatalize _l_ following _i_ or _e_.

6) Sometimes your final _a_ or _e_ is slightly schwa-like.

7) You aspirate unvoiced stops. This isn't wrong per se (Tolkien
himself aspirated them), but it is more probable that they were not
aspirated. I quote from my essay on the Finnicization of Quenya:

"There is no aspiration for unvoiced stops in Finnish. Neither in all
likelihood in Quenya. It is true that Tolkien aspirated in his
reading of Namárië, but this may be due to the difficulty of English
speakers not to aspirate voiceless stops. This might not be so
convincing if one considers that Tolkien was an expert linguist
(although this does not guarantee perfect pronunciation). Yet three
things may be said in defence of the probability that there is no
aspiration in Quenya. Firstly, Primitive Elvish differentiated
between aspirated and non-aspirated stops and the unvoiced stops in
Quenya descend from the non-aspirated stops (cf. the Etymologies).
Secondly, there were originally distinct letters for aspirated
consonants in the general Tengwar system and the Quenya unvoiced
stops are not written with those (Appendix E).  Thirdly, as Quenya
has no independently occurring voiced stops, there is no need to
starkly set apart unvoiced stops by adding aspiration."

PS. I was unable to download your reading of Namárie.

- Petri Samuel Tikka
www.geocities.com/petristikka/

Your pronunciation is very good, in fact almost perfect. There are
only a few problems:

1) The combination _qu_ should be pronounced as a rounded velar
unvoiced stop, i.e. [k] and [w] simultaniously, not one after another.
This I am aware of; this is kind of difficult for croatians to pronounce,
but the difference is so marginal that I rather leted this be, and
concentrated on other things (because I pronounced every single file
everything at once; not verse by verse or something similiar).

2) You forget to pronounce _é_ close than short _e_.
You mean with lips closer than e? In every word or...? However, I DID notice
that é suddenly sounds like diphtong ei.

3) When _h_ is between vowels, it should be pronounced [x], as in
German _Bach_. To me, your medial _h_ sounded a little bit too weak.
Croatians have a tendency to articulate h as a velar fricative; while medial
and starting h in quenya, by my knowledge, is a glottal fricative
(articulated in the throat, without the usage of tongue). I know that I
pronounced h wrong in mahalmassen (it seems that I pronounced the shortest
text the worst :)).

4) You sometimes lengthen stressed short vowels, e.g. _Eru_ as
**_Eeru_ or _enyalien_ as **_enyaalien_.
Correct. This I will remedee in my next pronounciation of Cirions Oath, in
the next few days.

5) You forget to lightly palatalize _l_ following _i_ or _e_.
Actualy I didn't forget, but I tried to palatalize it just a bit. Maybe I
invested to little in the effort?

6) Sometimes your final _a_ or _e_ is slightly schwa-like.
Where? You could well be correct, because my first attempt was full of schwa
sounds instead of -e. When I listened, I couldn't believe myself, because
croatian does not have schwa sounds - wovels are always pure, as in quenya,
so what I recoreded was quite illogical. So if you could point where I
failed to achieve the right thing in my second attempt, which you can hear,
It would be great.

7) You aspirate unvoiced stops. This isn't wrong per se (Tolkien
himself aspirated them), but it is more probable that they were not
aspirated. I quote from my essay on the Finnicization of Quenya:
Yes, sometimes, and not as much as in english i.e. I stand with you that
unvoiced stops should not be aspirated.

PS. I was unable to download your reading of Namárie.
? It works just fine for anyone else, as far as I know. You have to click on
Namaarie, not on (tekst). I just tested it, and it works. ?

Ok, now here are things I noticed and you didn't mention:
I pronounced sina as siina,
In mahalmassen, I pronounced h instead of x
tiruvantes - this should probably be pronounced as SSLS (where S-short
syllable, L-long). This isn't mentioned in many placed by my knowledge. Why?
Because of Tolkien's pronounciation of hiruvalye in Namaarie, and does two
words are morphologicaly identical. Again Cirion's :thud:
My v is to weak. Actualy, you are Finnish (are you) so you should know: I
believe that finnish is closer to an aproximant as in croatian, and is not
as strong as in english/french/italian etc. Imho, this v would fit into
quenya much nicer; however, (unfortunately) Tolkien doesn't open the
possibility anywhere.
cirya sounds a little to bit like kirja ;)

I am deeply, depply grateful for your help.

Your pronunciation is very good, in fact almost perfect. There are
only a few problems:

1) The combination _qu_ should be pronounced as a rounded velar
unvoiced stop, i.e. [k] and [w] simultaniously, not one after another.
This I am aware of; this is kind of difficult for croatians to pronounce,
but the difference is so marginal that I rather leted this be, and
concentrated on other things (because I pronounced every single file
everything at once; not verse by verse or something similiar).

2) You forget to pronounce _é_ close than short _e_.
You mean with lips closer than e? In every word or...? However, I DID notice
that é suddenly sounds like diphtong ei.

3) When _h_ is between vowels, it should be pronounced [x], as in
German _Bach_. To me, your medial _h_ sounded a little bit too weak.
Croatians have a tendency to articulate h as a velar fricative; while medial
and starting h in quenya, by my knowledge, is a glottal fricative
(articulated in the throat, without the usage of tongue). I know that I
pronounced h wrong in mahalmassen (it seems that I pronounced the shortest
text the worst :)).

4) You sometimes lengthen stressed short vowels, e.g. _Eru_ as
**_Eeru_ or _enyalien_ as **_enyaalien_.
Correct. This I will remedee in my next pronounciation of Cirions Oath, in
the next few days.

5) You forget to lightly palatalize _l_ following _i_ or _e_.
Actualy I didn't forget, but I tried to palatalize it just a bit. Maybe I
invested to little in the effort?

6) Sometimes your final _a_ or _e_ is slightly schwa-like.
Where? You could well be correct, because my first attempt was full of schwa
sounds instead of -e. When I listened, I couldn't believe myself, because
croatian does not have schwa sounds - wovels are always pure, as in quenya,
so what I recoreded was quite illogical. So if you could point where I
failed to achieve the right thing in my second attempt, which you can hear,
It would be great.

7) You aspirate unvoiced stops. This isn't wrong per se (Tolkien
himself aspirated them), but it is more probable that they were not
aspirated. I quote from my essay on the Finnicization of Quenya:
Yes, sometimes, and not as much as in english i.e. I stand with you that
unvoiced stops should not be aspirated.

PS. I was unable to download your reading of Namárie.
? It works just fine for anyone else, as far as I know. You have to click on
Namaarie, not on (tekst). I just tested it, and it works. ?

Ok, now here are things I noticed and you didn't mention:
I pronounced sina as siina,
In mahalmassen, I pronounced h instead of x
tiruvantes - this should probably be pronounced as SSLS (where S-short
syllable, L-long). This isn't mentioned in many placed by my knowledge. Why?
Because of Tolkien's pronounciation of hiruvalye in Namaarie, and does two
words are morphologicaly identical. Again Cirion's :thud:
My v is to weak. Actualy, you are Finnish (are you) so you should know: I
believe that finnish is closer to an aproximant as in croatian, and is not
as strong as in english/french/italian etc. Imho, this v would fit into
quenya much nicer; however, (unfortunately) Tolkien doesn't open the
possibility anywhere.
cirya sounds a little to bit like kirja ;)

I am deeply, depply grateful for your help.

"Rainalcar" wrote:

> 2) You forget to pronounce _é_ close than short _e_.
> You mean with lips closer than e? In every word or...? However, I
> DID notice that é suddenly sounds like diphtong ei.

I am unable to comment thoroughly because I still can't dowload you
reading of Namárie. You get the point, though.

> Croatians have a tendency to articulate h as a velar fricative;
> while medial and starting h in quenya, by my knowledge, is a
> glottal fricative (articulated in the throat, without the usage of
> tongue).

Ah, so that is the difference. I have pronounced medial _h_ as uvular
fricative so far. Poor me...

> 5) You forget to lightly palatalize _l_ following _i_ or _e_.
> Actualy I didn't forget, but I tried to palatalize it just a bit.
> Maybe I invested to little in the effort?

Perhaps it was just slightly too little, because I can only hear it
now when I pay special attention to it.

> 6) Sometimes your final _a_ or _e_ is slightly schwa-like.
> Where? You could well be correct, because my first attempt was full
> of schwa sounds instead of -e. When I listened, I couldn't believe
> myself, because croatian does not have schwa sounds - wovels are
> always pure, as in quenya, so what I recoreded was quite illogical.
> So if you could point where I failed to achieve the right thing in
> my second attempt, which you can hear, It would be great.

This problem is very, very small. There aren't any true schwas in
your readings, just a couple of ever so slightly schwa-ish final
vowels. This isn't a true phonetic problem, and might even be due to
the recording.

> PS. I was unable to download your reading of Namárie.
> ? It works just fine for anyone else, as far as I know. You have to
>click on Namaarie, not on (tekst). I just tested it, and it works. ?

I click on the audio file and it just says that there's an error in
the file. Strange.

> Ok, now here are things I noticed and you didn't mention:
> I pronounced sina as siina,

I actually did notice this, it is included in the category of comment
number 4, but I didn't mention it as an example.

> tiruvantes - this should probably be pronounced as SSLS (where S-
> short syllable, L-long). This isn't mentioned in many placed by my
> knowledge. Why? Because of Tolkien's pronounciation of hiruvalye in
> Namaarie, and does two words are morphologicaly identical. Again
> Cirion's :thud:

I'm afraid I'm not following you here.

> My v is to weak. Actualy, you are Finnish (are you) so you should
> know: I believe that finnish is closer to an aproximant as in
> croatian, and is not as strong as in english/french/italian etc.
> Imho, this v would fit into quenya much nicer; however,
>(unfortunately) Tolkien doesn't open the possibility anywhere.

Yes, Finnish _v_ is indeed an approximant. The fact that initial _w_
changed into _v_ in Quenya might point out to an approximant _v_ also
in Quenya. It seems to me that the weak bilabial approximant is much
closer to the labiodental approximant than to the labiondental voiced
fricative. But this is inconclusive to the exact pronunciation of
Quenya _v_. Note that Tolkien did say: "V - has the sound of English
_v_" (Appendix E), although this might not be a dogmatic linguistic
explanation. The fact that the tengwa for Quenya _v_ is of the sixth,
weak, non-fricative grade would naturally imply an approximant _v_ in
Quenya. This, too, might be inconclusive, as the usually voiced
fricative grade 4 was already reserved in Quenya. Anyway, the
difference between labiodental approximant and labiodental voiced
fricative is minimal, being only a matter of degree.

I have one additional comment. Your _a_ seems to be (at least
sometimes) a little bit more frontal than 100% back vowel. It sounds
like an open near-back or central unrounded vowel, not like an open
_back_ unrounded vowel like it most naturally should be (as in
Finnish). I'm not sure here, though, if I'm not misinterpreting your
pronunciation somehow.

- Petri Samuel Tikka
www.geocities.com/petristikka/

> 2) You forget to pronounce _é_ close than short _e_.
> You mean with lips closer than e? In every word or...? However, I
> DID notice that é suddenly sounds like diphtong ei.

>I am unable to comment thoroughly because I still can't dowload you
>reading of Namárie. You get the point, though.

I am really sorry for that, because I think that I pronounced the best ;)
Well, Tolkien was of some help, yes. I will upload it again in a few days
and post an information on elfling, if you are willing to check it.

> Croatians have a tendency to articulate h as a velar fricative;
> while medial and starting h in quenya, by my knowledge, is a
> glottal fricative (articulated in the throat, without the usage of
> tongue).

>Ah, so that is the difference. I have pronounced medial _h_ as uvular
>fricative so far. Poor me...

Every day something new ;)

> 6) Sometimes your final _a_ or _e_ is slightly schwa-like.
> Where? You could well be correct, because my first attempt was full
> of schwa sounds instead of -e. When I listened, I couldn't believe
> myself, because croatian does not have schwa sounds - wovels are
> always pure, as in quenya, so what I recoreded was quite illogical.
> So if you could point where I failed to achieve the right thing in
> my second attempt, which you can hear, It would be great.

>This problem is very, very small. There aren't any true schwas in
>your readings, just a couple of ever so slightly schwa-ish final
>vowels. This isn't a true phonetic problem, and might even be due to
>the recording.

I had to record everything on a 3eur microphone, about 40 cm from it,
otherwise the noise becomes horrible :(

> PS. I was unable to download your reading of Namárie.
> ? It works just fine for anyone else, as far as I know. You have to
>click on Namaarie, not on (tekst). I just tested it, and it works. ?

>I click on the audio file and it just says that there's an error in
>the file. Strange.

After you download it or before? If before, try to right click and then
click save target as...

> tiruvantes - this should probably be pronounced as SSLS (where S-
> short syllable, L-long). This isn't mentioned in many placed by my
> knowledge. Why? Because of Tolkien's pronounciation of hiruvalye in
> Namaarie, and does two words are morphologicaly identical. Again
> Cirion's :thud:

>I'm afraid I'm not following you here.

Not suprising, considering how I wrote it. It can be seen from Tolkien's
pronounciation of Namaarie that he pronounces hiruvalye in a way that he
lengthens the -val- syllable. I don't know why is this, but if it is a rule,
then tiruvantes for the least should be pronounced tiruvaantes, considering
it is morphologicaly identical to hiruvalye.


> My v is to weak. Actualy, you are Finnish (are you) so you should
> know: I believe that finnish is closer to an aproximant as in
> croatian, and is not as strong as in english/french/italian etc.
> Imho, this v would fit into quenya much nicer; however,
>(unfortunately) Tolkien doesn't open the possibility anywhere.

>Yes, Finnish _v_ is indeed an approximant. The fact that initial _w_
>changed into _v_ in Quenya might point out to an approximant _v_ also
>in Quenya. It seems to me that the weak bilabial approximant is much
>closer to the labiodental approximant than to the labiondental voiced
>fricative. But this is inconclusive to the exact pronunciation of
>Quenya _v_. Note that Tolkien did say: "V - has the sound of English
>_v_" (Appendix E), although this might not be a dogmatic linguistic
>explanation. The fact that the tengwa for Quenya _v_ is of the sixth,
>weak, non-fricative grade would naturally imply an approximant _v_ in
>Quenya. This, too, might be inconclusive, as the usually voiced
>fricative grade 4 was already reserved in Quenya. Anyway, the
>difference between labiodental approximant and labiodental voiced
>fricative is minimal, being only a matter of degree.

Yes, that note in App E is somewhat of a problem here. And Helge also points
to that.

>I have one additional comment. Your _a_ seems to be (at least
>sometimes) a little bit more frontal than 100% back vowel. It sounds
>like an open near-back or central unrounded vowel, not like an open
>_back_ unrounded vowel like it most naturally should be (as in
>Finnish). I'm not sure here, though, if I'm not misinterpreting your
>pronunciation somehow.

Donno really. This I would have to check, maybe in a few days, I have a trip
to make now. Hear you.






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Thomas,

Thankyou for the comments on my translation. I agree that it is best
put into the active. There are some questions I have about your
version which would help me understand quenya a little better.

You use 'amileryan' which I understand is made up of amil- (mother) -
rya- (his) and -n (for). Where does the extra -a- come from ?

You have used carne derived from carë which, according to the word
list I used, means 'to do'. I used ónë derived from onta meaning 'to
create'. Why is carne better for this ?

You used 'véne sina'. Is the order of the words important here, or
could they be reversed ?

I used venë which I found in the book of lost tales appendix under
'glorvent'. I could not find a reference to véne. Where does this
occur ?

If I wrote Gwen in tengwar, would I use <ungwe accute> <numen> ?

Is there a standard convention for writing tengwar in this chat group
  ?

Thanks,
Mark



--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Atwe <percival64@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> --- rmrostron <midknight@e...>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > English
> > This dish/bowl was made by Mark Rostron for his
> > beloved mother, Gwen.
> >
> > Quenya
> > Sina ve/ne: ne/ o/ne: Mark Rostronnen melin
> > amilryan, Gwen
>
> I wouldn't use passive at all, saves you the use of
> unattested past tense of "to be":
>
> Mark Rostron carne véne sina melda amileryan, Gwenen.
>
> Thomas Ferencz
>
>  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --
>
> Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Hello Mark,


--- rmrostron <midknight@...>
wrote:

> Thomas,
>
> Thankyou for the comments on my translation. I agree
> that it is best
> put into the active. There are some questions I have
> about your
> version which would help me understand quenya a
> little better.
>
> You use 'amileryan' which I understand is made up of
> amil- (mother) -
> rya- (his) and -n (for). Where does the extra -a-
> come from ?

I presume you mean the extra 'e'; that is a connective
vowel, since *amilryan would contain a consonat
cluster that is impossible in Quenya a connective
vowel enters to make it pronouncable.

>
> You have used carne derived from carë which,
> according to the word
> list I used, means 'to do'. I used ónë derived from
> onta meaning 'to
> create'. Why is carne better for this ?

_onta-_ comes from root ONO- glossed "beget, create";
while _car-_ comes from KAR- "make, build, construct";
it is a matter of taste of course, I just thought that
for the making of a bowl _car-_ fits better.

>
> You used 'véne sina'. Is the order of the words
> important here, or
> could they be reversed ?

In our only attested example of _sina_ (in Cirion's
Oath) the word is put after the noun it describes;
that is why usually most use it in this order.


>
> I used venë which I found in the book of lost tales
> appendix under
> 'glorvent'. I could not find a reference to véne.
> Where does this
> occur ?

This is my mistake; _véne_ actually means "virginity"
which hardly applies here:-); on the other hand,
_vene_ is glossed "small boat, vessel". Maybe _calpa_
would be better from LR:402?
>
> If I wrote Gwen in tengwar, would I use <ungwe
> accute> <numen> ?

Neither "Gwen" nor "Mark Rostron" fit Quenya phonetics
(e.g. Q has no "gw" sound nor consonant clusters at
the end of a word) so I can't comment you there; nor
am I an expert in Tengwar modes - ask in the elfscript
group.

>
> Is there a standard convention for writing tengwar
> in this chat group
>  ?

This is not exactly a "chat group":-) Besides, this is
text-only, so Tengwar won't render; you can either
make a jpg/png etc. and upload it to the files area of
the group; or you can try my website, Aglardh (url in
my sig) which has a filter to render Tengwar.


>
> Thanks,
> Mark

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I am working on a translation and suddenly needed a Q word for "loins". Any
ideas?

There was a list of Qenya words for various bodyparts in one of the recent
Parmar, but I can't find the reference now (and I'm not sure there was a
word for "loins" there anyway).

Also, can anybody tell me where the word _fanta-_ "to veil, cloak, mantle"
occurs? It was in one of the recent VTs, and I even put it in my wordlist,
but I forgot to include the reference.

- HKF

Petri Tikka wrote:

> 3) When _h_ is between vowels, it should be pronounced [x], as in German
_Bach_.

Well, according to Appendix E the sound [x] did remain medially, yes.

One statement in VT41:9 may however complicate the picture: "In Quenya and
Telerin medial [x] eventually became _h_ also in most cases." The
exceptions may be the combinations _aht, oht, uht_ where we know that [x]
persisted.

According to Appendix E, the letter _harma_ originally denoted [x], so the
word would be pronounced [xarma]. Then initial [x] became [h], explaining
why this word is normally transcribed _harma_ rather than "charma" or
something. The relevant tengwa was renamed _aha_, since [x] remained
medially; hence the word would still be pronounced [axa].

But then, according to VT41:9 just quoted, medial [x] also became [h] "in
most cases". Is this why "aha" is indeed so spelt in Appendix E, because
even in this word the [x] eventually became [h]?

At this point the Elves should of course have renamed the relevant Tengwa
AGAIN, maybe calling it _ohta_ or something, to have a word where [x] still
occurred. But now we are so late in history that the Dominion of Men is
imminent, and the Elves just think, "Heck, we won't be around very much
longer anyway, so just leave the alphabet the way it is."

It may be, then, that if you go for the late Exilic pronunciation, it is
not wrong to pronounce even a word like _mahalma_ with a simple breath-H. I
would probably do so myself. It was still [x] in Valinorean Quenya and in
early Exilic, though, so if one aims for a more "classical" pronunciation,
one should indeed go for [x] here.

There would seem to be three stages:

Pre-Exilic/Valinorean: The grapheme H (as it appears in the normal
transcribed spelling) is pronounced [x] everywhere (unless it was already
ich-Laut in the combinations _eht, iht_...I ignore these special cases
below as well).

Early Exilic: The grapheme H is still pronounced [x] medially, but has
become [h] initially.

Late Exilic: The grapheme H is pronounced [h] in nearly all cases, the
older sound of [x] persisting only (?) in the combinations _aht, oht, uht_.

That is, regarding the original Valinorean pronunciation there are some
hints that [x] and [h] were distinct phonemes, expressed by the letters
_harma_ (then [xarma]) and _halla_, respectively. Maybe Tolkien's idea was
that [x] comes from primitive _kh_ and (initial) _sk-_, whereas [h] was
derived from primitive _3_ or simply _h_ (his reconstruction of the PQ
sound differs). If so, the word _harma_ must be derived from another root
than _3AR_, as in the Etymologies. Anyway, at some point these phonemes
merged; in later Quenya [x] and [h] have become allophones of the same
phoneme.

Well, this has less to do with the problem before us: how to pronounce the
grapheme H in Exilic Quenya.

- HKF

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
<helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
>
>
> Also, can anybody tell me where the word _fanta-_ "to veil, cloak,
mantle"
> occurs? It was in one of the recent VTs, and I even put it in my
wordlist,
> but I forgot to include the reference.
>
> - HKF
>

Vinyar Tengwar 43/22

"Mereth Veren e-Doled Eruion! Garo Idhrinn Eden Veren!"
   I just hope that it means (in Sindarin) what I want to say to everybody :
"Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année" (in my language).

   Fredon Le Hobbit

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A friend of mine worked on this and I would really appreciate your
oppinion and help. It looks pretty good to me, but...that's just me
=)

Ortai i tie omenties,
Nai i sul oio se amalye,
I Anar lauca silai antalyenna
Ar lantai i miste musse restaralyenna
Ar tanna enomentuvalmet
Iluvatar haryai le mi camberya.


May the road rise up to meet you,
May the wind be ever at your back,
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
And the rain fall soft upon your fields,
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the hollow of His hand.


~Q

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
<helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
>
> I am working on a translation and suddenly needed a Q word
for "loins". Any
> ideas?
>
> There was a list of Qenya words for various bodyparts in one of
the recent
> Parmar, but I can't find the reference now (and I'm not sure there
was a
> word for "loins" there anyway).
>
> Also, can anybody tell me where the word _fanta-_ "to veil, cloak,
mantle"
> occurs? It was in one of the recent VTs, and I even put it in my
wordlist,
> but I forgot to include the reference.
>
> - HKF
>

Your Quettaparma Quenyanna seems to say that _fanta-_ is from
VT43:22. :)

Hi,

--- quenarth <quenarth@...> wrote:

>
> Ortai i tie omenties,
> Nai i sul oio se amalye,
> I Anar lauca silai antalyenna
> Ar lantai i miste musse restaralyenna
> Ar tanna enomentuvalmet
> Iluvatar haryai le mi camberya.

I actually do not recognize this verbal suffix -i
(ortai, silai etc.) - maybe I am missing something.

Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu

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Season's greetings,

quenarth wrote:

>A friend of mine worked on this and I would really appreciate your
>oppinion and help. It looks pretty good to me, but...that's just me
>=)

It's pretty OK, it just looks like he/she or someone would have derived the
imperative-forming idea by looking at the particle _nai_ (and the possessive
suffixes having been confused with the pronominal verb endings).

If the syllable count is to be kept, then maybe correcting as follows:

>Ortai i tie omenties,
>May the road rise up to meet you,

Orta i tie omentien, [lit. "Rise the road for meeting" (-ie- here
representing the II or inflected infinitive) ][ full imperative would be _á
orta ..._]

>Nai i sul oio se amalye,
>May the wind be ever at your back,

Na i súl' oiale cata le [_cata_ preposition "behind, at back of place"]

>I Anar lauca silai antalyenna
>May the sun shine warm upon your face,

Á Anar lauca cale antalyanna(r) [_sil-_ refers to white or silver light
shining, like that of stars or moon]

>Ar lantai i miste musse restaralyenna
>And the rain fall soft upon your fields,

Ar/Á lanta i miste musse restalyanna(r) [without -r the idea connoted is
just "one face, one field"]

>Ar tanna enomentuvalmet
>And until we meet again,

Ar tenna enomentiemma, [= the next meeting of us two]

>Iluvatar haryai le mi camberya.
>May God hold you in the hollow of His hand.

Ilúvatar le hepe/harta camberyasse.


Elhath

> Ortai i tie omenties,
> Nai i sul oio se amalye,
> I Anar lauca silai antalyenna
> Ar lantai i miste musse restaralyenna
> Ar tanna enomentuvalmet
> Iluvatar haryai le mi camberya.

Do I sense Ruth S. Noel's subjunctive in _-ai_ here?

--- Thorsten Renk <trenk@...> wrote:

>
> > Ortai i tie omenties,
> > Nai i sul oio se amalye,
> > I Anar lauca silai antalyenna
> > Ar lantai i miste musse restaralyenna
> > Ar tanna enomentuvalmet
> > Iluvatar haryai le mi camberya.
>
> Do I sense Ruth S. Noel's subjunctive in _-ai_ here?
>

So _that's_ the source! Never seen the book...

Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

Let's discuss Eldarin languages - http://aglardh.middangeard.hu

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Concerning the part of the site which concernes pronounciation, I have
rerecoreded Cirion's Oath (it should be better now :)), rerecorded Namaarie
(Petri Tikka told me that he had problems opening it in WMP; it seems that
it was because of the lyrics I inserted in it. However, the lyrics were no
problem in other recordings, this was puzzling, but it doesn't matter.), and
I (finaly) recorded a vinyaquenya text which is a translation of the
prophecy of Mandos concerning the Last Battle, Dagor Dagorath.
You can find and listen to them, as with Markirya and John's gospel 1, 1-5,
at www.geocities.com/rainalkar, where you see KB's and MP3 signs.
All feedback is, again, appreciated.

And Petri  you were right concerning the problem opening Namaarie in WMP; it
seems that it worked in every other player except WMP (?), it should work
now in WMP as well.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Rainalcar" <temp@e...> wrote:
>
> Concerning the part of the site which concernes pronounciation, I
have
> rerecoreded Cirion's Oath (it should be better now :)), rerecorded
Namaarie
> (Petri Tikka told me that he had problems opening it in WMP; it
seems that
> it was because of the lyrics I inserted in it. However, the lyrics
were no
> problem in other recordings, this was puzzling, but it doesn't
matter.), and
> I (finaly) recorded a vinyaquenya text which is a translation of the
> prophecy of Mandos concerning the Last Battle, Dagor Dagorath.
> You can find and listen to them, as with Markirya and John's gospel
1, 1-5,
> at www.geocities.com/rainalkar, where you see KB's and MP3 signs.
> All feedback is, again, appreciated.
>
> And Petri  you were right concerning the problem opening Namaarie in
WMP; it
> seems that it worked in every other player except WMP (?), it should
work
> now in WMP as well.

Hello,
With all the sound files around, I've decided to gather all my records
as well and put them on Sindanórie; you can listen to them if you
like:
http://sindanoorie.atspace.com/Audio.html
This includes the Akallabêth fragments, all the three Markirya
versions, Fíriel's Song and some others.. Some day I shall add the
records of my own texts.

It's always interesting to compare it with others (we've both recorded
Markirya). Luckily it seems to be pretty much the same, the only main
difference I can see is that my 'l' is much more palatalized, also
after dark vowels..


RR.

>Hello,
>With all the sound files around, I've decided to gather all my records
>as well and put them on Sindanórie; you can listen to them if you
>like:
>http://sindanoorie.atspace.com/Audio.html

Ofcourse I will be more than happy to listen to them, but for the moment I
get an error of a surpassed download limith. If you wish, I could comment on
your pronounciation. It would be appreciated if you could point to mistakes
or inconsistenices in my pronounciation.

>This includes the Akallabêth fragments, all the three Markirya
>versions, Fíriel's Song and some others.. Some day I shall add the
>records of my own texts.

For the moment I have recorded quenya alone: this is convinient, I think,
because I wrote a rather comprehensive quenya grammar summary in croatian;
writing sindarin is currently only a plan im mind ;). Other quenya
constructions (Tolkien's), sindarin, and everything else, will have to wait
when I find some time; currently I'm involved in other activities (writing
some texts for the first Tolkien portal in croatian).

>It's always interesting to compare it with others (we've both recorded
>Markirya). Luckily it seems to be pretty much the same, the only main
>difference I can see is that my 'l' is much more palatalized, also
>after dark vowels..

Most likely, Markirya was for me rather easy to pronounce, compared to some
other texts. But, as I said, I can't access it for the moment.






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Roman Rausch skrev:

> It's always interesting to compare it with others (we've both recorded
> Markirya). Luckily it seems to be pretty much the same, the only main
> difference I can see is that my 'l' is much more palatalized, also
> after dark vowels..

If your native language has only a "middle" [l] that is neither
velarized nor palatalized it will probably sound that way, but
to judge from Tolkien's description "L represents more or less
the sound of English initial l, as in let. It was, however,
to some degree "palatalized" between e, i and a consonant, or
finally after e, i. (The Eldar would probably have transcribed
English bell, fill as beol fiol.)" it is probably better to err
in the direction of palatalization.  NB that speakers of Russian
hear "middle" [l] as their palatalized [L].

--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Roccondil\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

Roman Rausch wrote:

>Hello,
>With all the sound files around, I've decided to gather all my records
>as well and put them on Sindanórie; you can listen to them if you like:
>http://sindanoorie.atspace.com/Audio.html
>This includes the Akallabêth fragments, all the three Markirya
>versions, Fíriel's Song and some others.. Some day I shall add the
>records of my own texts.

Treats!

The well-known problem with Adûnaic of course is that we don't know how
Tolkien intended to stress it[1]; whether it was most like Hebrew, earlier
Aramaic, later Aramaic, or Arabic, to give Semitic examples (these all
differ somewhat; any past Elfling messages?). For some reason yours is the
first Adûnaic recording I have spotted on the web, and it makes me rather
glad to have found it.


Elhath


[1] Though I'd say types [*zi:'ra:n, *i'zindi, *zi'gu:run] probably make a
pretty safe bet.

Greetings,

   I know the verb stem for "to praise" is _egleria-_ , but what of a noun form
for the word "praise"?

   "Worship" and "adoration" are giving me a hard time as well...

   Many thanks,

   Kathleen

    [...]

I was considering buying parma eldalamberon 1-5 from eldalamberon.com
but there is no information about thier contents. I was wonderind if
someone could tell me if they are good from a linguistic point of view.