In a message dated 9/9/00 2:41:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
denizakhan@... writes:

<< But the main thing is all the suffixes in Q. In turkish its also like
  that, you add suffixes to everything. Ex. "in the sea", "from the
  sea", "to the sea" "of the sea" and more; it´s all suffixed. >>

This is not a very striking coincidence: English and the moderne romance
languages are unique in that they do not have case endings, but instead use
prepositions and word ordre. The majority of languages that I am familliar
with (excluding the moderne romance languages, of course) work in the fassion
of Turkish and Quenya. Both inflecting tongues, like Latin, Greek, Olde
English, and Sanskrit, as well as agglutinating languages; for example
Hungarian and Nahuatl. Some of the exceptions, of course, being the Sinitic
languages (Chinese, for example), which are isolating, with grammar based
almost solely on word ordre and particles.

Hello Jerome,

Saturday, September 09, 2000, 10:37:54 AM, you wrote:

JSC> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, David Kiltz wrote:

>> In German there is a flower called
>> _Vergissmeinicht_ which is litterally "don't forget me !" I wonder wether
>> there are similar names in other languages.

JSC> "forget-me-not (n.) any of a genus (Myosotis) of small herbs of the borage
JSC> family having bright-blue or white flowers usually arranged in a curving
JSC> spike" --Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary. Is this the same plant,
JSC> and could either be simbelmyne/alfirin?

JSC> *************************************
JSC> *  Jerome Colburn   (;-{=''',,,=    *
JSC> *  jscolbur@...          *
JSC> *************************************


JSC> --
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JSC> List Guides: Angasule, Greg Dyke, Claude Heyman


in italian the same flower, i think, is named _NonTiScordarDiMe_ that
means "Don't Forget Me"

--
Best regards,
  Elendil                            mailto:Elendil@...

But could someone translate those sentances so I may see it in action?
I have no access to the necessary information about Turkish to answere my
questions in such a short period of time that I do have.
Hantale!
Eruanno
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On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Nicholas Taylor wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Kiltz [mailto:kiltzd@...]
> > Sent: 7 September 2000 8:55 am
> > To: elfling@egroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [elfling] simbelmyne
> >
> > said that "simbelmyne" was a small white flower. The notion of "not
> > forgetting" is interesting. In German there is a flower called
> > _Vergissmeinicht_ which is litterally "don't forget me !" I wonder wether
> > there are similar names in other languages.
>
> I think there is a flower called a Forget-Me-Not, although I have no idea if
> it is small and white.

I believe the Forget-Me-Not is a small blue flower. At least, that's the
flower which I always called a Forget-Me-Not.

Erunantion

>
> Nicholas Taylor
>
>
> --
> Moderator address: elfling-owner@egroups.com
> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> Elfling welcome/rules: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html
> Elfling FAQ: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfaq.html
> List Guides: Angasule, Greg Dyke, Claude Heyman
>
>

==================================================================
	 Jonathan Erbe  aka  Erunantion
                      The Annals of Middle-earth
                 <"http://rush.baked.net/~jerbel/">
	      E-mail me at <"mailto:jerbel@...">
==================================================================

Andreas Johansson schrieb am ÒRe: [elfling] Avari and AvarsÓ.
[2000/09/09 22:50]

>
>
> ><< Somewhat off-topic, but can some lambengolmo on the list tell me
> whether
> >the
> >  Latin nom sg of the people-name "Avars" (you know, those medieval
> turkic
> >  nomads on the Balkans, fought the Byzantine nummerous timers) happen
> to
> >to
> >  be "Avari" >>
> >
> >Avari is probably the nominative plural. If so, the singular, then,
> would
> >be
> >'Avar' (which sounds right to me), but keep in mind that I am not at all
> >familliar with this word. It would seem to be a simple 2nd declension
> >masculine noun, with an irregular nom.sing. ending. A female, then,
> might
> >be
> >an 'Avara' (nom. sing.), with the nom. plur. being 'Avaræ'.
> >
> >     Hope I could be of some help.
> >NDK
> >
>
> Eh, no offense but you actually left me alot more confused than I was. If
> _avari_ is an actual Latin nom pl form, shouldn't the nom sg be _avarus_
> then? Especially if there's a corresponding fem nom sg _avara_?
>
>                                                       Andreas

I think the point is that in Latin there are masculine words in the o-
declension which loose their -us in the nom. sg. as the nouns in -er _ager_
< *agros, _magister_ < *magistros etc.
However it seems that the nom. sg. of "Avars" is _avar_ in Latin. Though I
did not find any attestation for it, what I did find was an acc. pl.:
...(contra) Avares. (In the Vita Karoli Magni). So the noun seems to be
classed into the cons. class. like e.g. par, paris (though this is of
course an adj.) etc.

-David Kiltz

At 8:50 pm +0000 9/9/00, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>><< Somewhat off-topic, but can some lambengolmo on the list tell me whether
>>the
>>  Latin nom sg of the people-name "Avars" (you know, those medieval turkic
>>  nomads on the Balkans, fought the Byzantine nummerous timers) happen to
>>to
>>  be "Avari" >>

[snip]

>Eh, no offense but you actually left me alot more confused than I was. If
>_avari_ is an actual Latin nom pl form, shouldn't the nom sg be _avarus_
>then? Especially if there's a corresponding fem nom sg _avara_?

You're confused because the information you received is certainly incorrect.

There are two possibilities:

(1) If the plural is *Avari then the singular certainly is *Avarus' and the
word is regular 2nd declension; this would, then, have a 1st declension
feminine (at least in theory, tho it may not be actually attested in
writing) *Avara = a female Avar.

(2) Alternatively, if the singular is *Avar, then the word will be _3rd_
declension and the plural will be *Avares. This would be epicene with no
separate feminine form.

The word, of course, was not used in Classical Latin and whether the word
was given 2nd or 3rd declension endings in the medieval language, I don't
know.  A bit of hard searching on the web might find the solution (if I get
time this week, I'll try).

Of course Latin _does_ have a word 'avarus', with plural nominative plural
'avari' - its the adjective meaning "covetous, greedy".

It's by no means improbable that they were Latinized by deliberately using
that adjective as a proper noun, thus implying that the Avars were, indeed,
truly avaricious   :)

Ray.







=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                    [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

>
>Since things are getting more and more rambling about the general
>etymologies of Rohirric names, the name "Theoden" is actually and OE
>word meaning "ruler."
>
>Matt Gozo
>

Just out of curiosity, does it have anything to do with _theode-_, as in
Theoderik, and similar words for people (eg Icelandic _thjodh_, German
_deut-_)? Seems possible since a ruler typically rules over a people ...

                                                        Andreas
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>Eh, no offense but you actually left me alot more confused than I was. If
>_avari_ is an actual Latin nom pl form, shouldn't the nom sg be _avarus_
>then? Especially if there's a corresponding fem nom sg _avara_?


Me seems you are right. I have not found this word in neither of my
dictionaries, but the plural -i would imply that it belongs to the -o stem class
(II. declination). The nouns of this class drop in nom. sg. the final -o only if
their stem ends on -er ("puer"), otherwise they make a "sigmatic" nominative,
adding -s, thus producing -os turning into -us.

But, is this noun an -o stem actually? I do not know, but if so, then it should
be declined as a consonant stem, i.e. gen. "Avaris", dat. "Avari" etc., nom. pl.
"Avares". The more so as the -o stem declination would make it clash with the
Latin adjective "avarus".

But maybe it would be the best to stop this and try and find (nice phrase!) it
up in a large-capacity dictionary, or to trace it in some Latin chronicle,
wouldn't it?

Lukas

>One reason that I have
>it a little difficult to believe it (tho' it's entirely possible AFAICT) is
>the plurals. The "long" cases have plurals in _-r_ or _-n_, with and extra
>ending AFTER the case ending, while the "short" cases pluralize by infixing
>an _-i-_, ie have the plural marker BEFORE the case ending. So while _coas_
>(the "respective" of _coa_ "house", meaning unknown) indeed looks alot like
>a shortening of _coasse_ (the lookative of _coa_; "in/at a house"), the
>plurals _coais_ and _coassen_ look quite different, certainly the former
>isn't a mere shortening (with more abstract meaning or no) of the later.
>PS, all four inflected forms of _coa_ mentioned above are AFAIK attested.
>_Coas_, _coasse_ and _coassen_ wouldn't be very controversial, but _coais_

Mhm, I do not think it is such a problem. One could think of many ways how this
final state could have developed - e.g. there originally was the plural -i-
infixed in the long cases too, but it was lost before the doubled consonant.
Then, a secondary ending -n was added in order to mark the plural clearly (such
things happen in real languges quite often, and something similar has, as I
believe, happened in the case of the genitive: "aldaron" from "alda" + plural
ending "-r" + genitive "-o" + secondary plural "-n" to make the difference of
sg. and pl. more clear). Or, one may treat the endings separately, something
like attached adverbs or particles (very similar to the pronominal endings of
verbs), and suppose that there are two modifications (long-concrete and
short-abstract) of such adverbs, triggering different ways of attaching to the
stem. I think it is quite certain that the short cases aren't simple shortenings
of the long ones, but this very simple way how to explain the relation is not
the only possible, I believe.

>contains simple vowel plus diphthong in a hiatic position, something that I
>can't remember seeing in any attested Q word. Possibly it should be
>simplified in some way, perhaps to _coes_; unstressed _ai_ sometimes becomes
>_e_ (but not always, cf _Eldain_ "for elves" etc).

If developing the first of my ideas, maybe the -i- would be lost in this case as
well, and some seconday plural ending attached then - maybe a second -i, as
the -r and -n are phonologically impossible? But then, what would happen to the
intervocalic -s- ("coasi")? Would it rhotacise, or should it in fact be doubled
(supposing that it originates with the double -ss-, the doubled consonant at the
end of the word having been simplified as in "Silmaril", but "Silmarilli" - thus
"coas", but pl. "coassi")??? But maybe the -i ending was so connected with the
notion of nominative, that this could not happen...

Well, enough, the only possible answer to all this is of course "who can
tell?"...

Lukas

--- In elfling@egroups.com, "Andreas Johansson" <and_yo@h...> wrote:
> I can't help but think that you're asking for something
somewhat "big".
> There's lots and lots of words in QL, separated from LotR-style
Quenya by a
> large number of phonological, semantical, vobularic and
derivational changes
> (not to mention that fact that QL "Qenya" had a somewhat different
position
> in the mythos than LotR and Silmarillion era Quenya). Sure, one
could give a
> few basic guidelines for "converting" words, but in many cases they
question
> will rather be whether the word can be "kept" at all
>
>                                               Andreas

  I totally agree with you on this one. It is hard to convert from the
QL and like you´re saying in many cases nearly impossible. But it´s
actually only those "few guidelines" I´m after, you know. I mean, I
don´t even have them, so at least help me with them.

> But could someone translate those sentances so I may see it in
action?

For example: In english grammar the sentences consists of SVO while
in turkish it´s SOV, just for basics.
I ate the apple, is in T Ben elmayi yedim=I thebreade* ate.
I went there today to talk to him:
Bugün ben oraya gittim, onu konusmak* icin*
Today I there went, him totalk* to(lit. for)

*thebreade and totalk i have spellt together just to indicate that in
T they´re spelled as in one ord with a suffix. As for the other
starmarks the s and c is pronounced as in english "shoot"
and "church" respectively. In reality they´re spelled s and c with
short vertikal strokes under them.

--- In elfling@egroups.com, Myrtheos@A... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/9/00 2:41:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> denizakhan@h... writes:
>
> << But the main thing is all the suffixes in Q. In turkish its also
like
>  that, you add suffixes to everything. Ex. "in the sea", "from the
>  sea", "to the sea" "of the sea" and more; it´s all suffixed. >>
>
> This is not a very striking coincidence: English and the moderne
romance
> languages are unique in that they do not have case endings, but
instead use
> prepositions and word ordre. The majority of languages that I am
familliar
> with (excluding the moderne romance languages, of course) work in
the fassion
> of Turkish and Quenya. Both inflecting tongues, like Latin, Greek,
Olde
> English, and Sanskrit, as well as agglutinating languages; for
example
> Hungarian and Nahuatl. Some of the exceptions, of course, being the
Sinitic
> languages (Chinese, for example), which are isolating, with grammar
based
> almost solely on word ordre and particles.

That I didn´t know. But my intention was not to declare that
Quenya
is guaranteely based on turkish grammar. I just wanted to point out
the resemblence.

In a message dated 9/9/00 10:35:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
and_yo@... writes:

<< ><< Somewhat off-topic, but can some lambengolmo on the list tell me
whether
  >the
  >  Latin nom sg of the people-name "Avars" (you know, those medieval turkic
  >  nomads on the Balkans, fought the Byzantine nummerous timers) happen to
  >to
  >  be "Avari" >>
  >
  >Avari is probably the nominative plural. If so, the singular, then, would
  >be
  >'Avar' (which sounds right to me), but keep in mind that I am not at all
  >familliar with this word. It would seem to be a simple 2nd declension
  >masculine noun, with an irregular nom.sing. ending. A female, then, might
  >be
  >an 'Avara' (nom. sing.), with the nom. plur. being 'Avaræ'.
  >
  >     Hope I could be of some help.
  >NDK
  >

  Eh, no offense but you actually left me alot more confused than I was. If
  _avari_ is an actual Latin nom pl form, shouldn't the nom sg be _avarus_
  then? Especially if there's a corresponding fem nom sg _avara_?
   >>

*Smacks head* O! Forgive me. It could very well be so. I was thinking along
the lines of 'puer, pueri', probably because I saw the English version
'Avar'. Could be that it is 'Avarus', but I wouldn't be the one to tell you.
Sorry 'bout that!

>  "Simbelmyne" is Old English as far as I know. The first element "simbel"
> -David Kiltz

Forget-me-not is a blue (a little white) flower, in Polish it is called
'niezapominajka' = 'don't forget', obviously very close to the Czech name
for it.

Maciej Zenczykowski.

At 11:39 am +0100 10/9/00, I wrote:
[....]
>
>There are two possibilities:
>
>(1) If the plural is *Avari then the singular certainly is *Avarus' and the
>word is regular 2nd declension; this would, then, have a 1st declension
>feminine (at least in theory, tho it may not be actually attested in
>writing) *Avara = a female Avar.
>
>(2) Alternatively, if the singular is *Avar, then the word will be _3rd_
>declension and the plural will be *Avares. This would be epicene with no
>separate feminine form.

And at 11:23 am +0200 10/9/00, David Kiltz wrote:
[....]
>I think the point is that in Latin there are masculine words in the o-
>declension which loose their -us in the nom. sg. as the nouns in -er _ager_
>< *agros, _magister_ < *magistros etc.

Yep - but with the single exception of 'vir', they all end in -er.  Even
Greek names ending in -ros were Latinized that way, e.g. Alexandros -->
Alexander.

However, to coin a 2nd declension singular in -ar in late Latin would be
very anomalous, even for the medieval language.

>However it seems that the nom. sg. of "Avars" is _avar_ in Latin. Though I
>did not find any attestation for it, what I did find was an acc. pl.:
>...(contra) Avares. (In the Vita Karoli Magni).

Well, that clinches it.  Thanks, David, it'll save me having to browse the
internet  :)

The noun is clearly 3rd declension: nom. 'Avar', gen. 'Avaris'.

Ray.


=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                    [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

JSC> "forget-me-not (n.) any of a genus (Myosotis) of small herbs of the borage
JSC> family having bright-blue or white flowers usually arranged in a curving
JSC> spike" --Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary. Is this the same plant,
JSC> and could either be simbelmyne/alfirin?


I suppose all the "forget-me-nots" are the same flower, but in Czech the common
usage aplies only to the species with BLUE florets (I in fact do not even know
any other). If this is the case in English, too, Tolkien probably could not have
meant by simbelmyne the same flower. I strongly suspect the professor simply
made the flower up himself (like mallorn and mithril). Moreover, as far as I
remember, simbelmyne is told to grow rather at dry places, as mounds and hills,
whereas at least the Czech pomnenka (pronounce [pomnyenka], just like in
"Vanyar") grows rather at wet places...

Lukas

Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> >
> >Since things are getting more and more rambling about the general
> >etymologies of Rohirric names, the name "Theoden" is actually and OE
> >word meaning "ruler."
> >
> >Matt Gozo
> >
>
> Just out of curiosity, does it have anything to do with _theode-_, as in
> Theoderik, and similar words for people (eg Icelandic _thjodh_, German
> _deut-_)? Seems possible since a ruler typically rules over a people ...
  In Old Icelandic -rik means power or ruler, I think, if it's the same
ending then Theoderik I guess would mean something like 'powerful
ruler', or maybe it's unrelated and means something else entirely, I
can't tell.
  My two cents.
  Angasule

Andreas Johansson schrieb am ÒRe: [elfling] Digest Number 134Ó.
[2000/09/09 22:41]

>
>
> >
> >Since things are getting more and more rambling about the general
> >etymologies of Rohirric names, the name "Theoden" is actually and OE
> >word meaning "ruler."
> >
> >Matt Gozo
> >
>
> Just out of curiosity, does it have anything to do with _theode-_, as in
> Theoderik, and similar words for people (eg Icelandic _thjodh_, German
> _deut-_)? Seems possible since a ruler typically rules over a people ...
>
>                                                        Andreas

Yes. It is a -n derivative. Cf. also OldSaxon _thiodan_, OldIcelandic
_thjoodhann_, Gothic _thiudans_. They all mean ruler etc. The Proto-
Germanic must have been sth. like *theudana(z).

-David Kiltz

>--- In elfling@egroups.com, "Andreas Johansson" <and_yo@h...> wrote:
> > I can't help but think that you're asking for something
>somewhat "big".
> > There's lots and lots of words in QL, separated from LotR-style
>Quenya by a
> > large number of phonological, semantical, vobularic and
>derivational changes
> > (not to mention that fact that QL "Qenya" had a somewhat different
>position
> > in the mythos than LotR and Silmarillion era Quenya). Sure, one
>could give a
> > few basic guidelines for "converting" words, but in many cases they
>question
> > will rather be whether the word can be "kept" at all
> >
> >                                               Andreas

Deniz " <denizakhan@...>  wrote:

>  I totally agree with you on this one. It is hard to convert from the
>QL and like you´re saying in many cases nearly impossible. But it´s
>actually only those "few guidelines" I´m after, you know. I mean, I
>don´t even have them, so at least help me with them.

**Andreas is right, it's not a simple thing, and I'll give you an example to
show why.  Here is an entry from the QQ which I picked not exactly at
random.  I have altered the format slightly to accommodate the net (double
vowels are written with a macron in the original, etc.).

PO-?
poome (e) 'the North'
poomea 'northern'
pooya
i-Ponoorir 'the Northlands (Scandinavia)
*ponoore 'Norway'
poar = poome
poomear 'a northern man, norseman'
Poomelaire 'name of a place'

**PME lists Poomelaire '(north fields)' [etc.]

**PME is a different text, the Poetical and Mythological Words of Eldarissa.
   I do not repeat the parts that are the same, but give the additional
definition for Poomelaire that appears in PME.

**So what have we here?  The root PO- meaning, more or less 'north' does not
appear in later Quenya, so nothing will be done to change it.  We could
replace it entirely with the root and words that appear in later Quenya for
north (from Etym. PHOR- 'right-hand' Q. formen 'north', N. forn 'right' or
'north' etc.) but I don't wish to do that either.  Now for the sticky part:
is there a connection between the PHOR- root of Etym. and the PO- root of
QQ?  The roots given in QQ for Qenya words are often a sort of intermediate
root between a root common to both Qenya and Sindarin/Gnomish, i.e. the root
in Etymologies, and the actual Qenya words.  But they aren't always, because
Tolkien often changed the original root which he had in mind.  That appears
to be the case here.   And we can't reconstruct exactly what root Tolkien
had in mind for Gnomish because 1) there aren't any roots given for the
Gnomish words, though they are often grouped together, and 2) in any case,
no words are given for 'north' or 'right' in Gnomish, period, so we can't
use those words to triangulate back.

**Nor is there any particular set of phonological changes that would cause a
root in Etym. such as PHOR- to become *po as in Qenya.  Most words that
start with PH- in Etym. will start with f- in Quenya, however, many words
that start with f- in Quenya may have roots starting with SP-.  And some
words don't follow either pattern.  There is a root HwUYU in QQ which gives
hui in Qenya; huine, fuine in QE: a root SUI which gives fion in Qenya, and
a root FALA (related to SPALA in Etym.) which gives both falmo 'foam' and
palasse 'foam' in Qenya.

**Here is a rough list of things that go P(H)-  I have given a few English
words just to refresh your memory.

Etym. Root    QL Root    Qu/QL           S/N/G

PHAL-, PHALAS- 'foam'    falle           falf
   but also
SPAL-, SPALAS
               FALA 'foam' falmo 'foam'   Gn. flass
                 but also  palasse 'foaming'
SPAN- 'white, cloud'     fanya (with Olofantur)
               FANA, FNTN 'dream, sleep'
                          QL fan- 'dream, sleep'   Gn. no equivalent
                     QL also with Olofantur: same word, different meaning
SPANAG- 'beard' poss. related to 'cloud, white'
         QL/GL ?   prob. related are the forms bang, fang, vang 'beard'
PHAR- 'suffice'          farya-          farn
        ?                 QL ?                 Gn. fad 'enough'
PHAS-                    fasse 'tangled hair'  N fast
SPAR- 'hunt'                              far-
PHAU 'gape'              fauka            fang
PHAY- 'radiate'          faina-           Feanor, foen
   prob. related FAYA     faire 'free'     Gn.fair 'free'
SPAY 'despise'
   poss. related PAYA 'requite, punish'    Gn. obaidra
PHELEG- 'cave'           felya            fela  (later to said to be a
borrowing from a Dwarvish word)
PHEW-                    fenda 'threshold' fend
PHER 'beech'             feren            feeer
PHEW 'feel disgust at'   feuya            fuio
          poss. FAWA 'smell'               Gn. fau
PHI-                     fion, Fionwe
        SUWU > *thw-iion-d > fion 'nephew' Gn. fwion
PHILIK- 'small bird'     filik(i)         filig
SPIN- 'hair'             finde            findel
               FIRI-      find 'lock of hair' Gn. faigli
PHIN- 'nimbleness'       Finwe
               FINI       finwa 'acute'     Gn. no equivalent
PHIR-                    firin 'dead'      feir
            no equivalents
PHOR- 'right-hand'       forya             foeir
               PO-        poome        Gn. no words for 'right, north'
PHUY-                    fuine, huine 'deep shadow' fuin
               HwUYU      hui 'fog, murk'    Gn. huir 'foggy'

**So for words that start with F in QL, we could surmise a root beginning
with F-, HW, or S.  For words beginning with F in Q of the Etym. we can
postulate a root beginning with PH-, SP-.  Some of these can be narrowed
down based on other forms, such as the Gnomish, but sometimes there is no
Gnomish equivalent.  And that's just looking at the initial sounds.

**You can also see that the plural of Poonorir would just be Poonori
(element nore 'land'), and that there is an agent former -ar (with plural
-ardi, -arni) for 'man' in pomear which could be replaced with some other
agent former seen in Etym.  Also I don't know of any rule to add the -r-
seen in formen (in later Q.).  I would retain Poonore (i) as a name of
Scandinavia, but someone else might drop it.  And probably most people would
replace all the elements po- 'north' with a later equivalent for-, but I
would retain it for special use (as I still call the Northern Lights the
Aurora Borealis).

**The sound system of Qenya vs. Quenya is not just a little different--it is
completely revamped.  Also the relationship between Qenya and Gnomish is
completely different from the relationship between Quenya and Sindarin,
because they really aren't historically related languages (as say modern
English and modern German are related to Old English and Old High German and
to each other).  Every time Tolkien reinvented his languages he reinvented
their history.  So, to do a sound change shift, you have to roll the QL word
back to its original root (unknown), then find the related root in Etym. or
reconstruct it yourself, then roll it forward in time to the Q of LotR form.

**My conclusion is that each set of words needs to be gone through and its
relations to other words determined and then a decision made (by each
person) whether they want to keep, discard, alter or replace.  It likes me
not to toss good words on the dung heap and I take a deal of delight in
salvaging old words and forms in English (I'm the founding mother, president
and still the only member of the Save Our Strong Verbs Society), but it is
still a lot of travail to do this  :-)  I guess it would help a lot if we
had more of the QL/GL roots reconstructed at least tentatively, but it's
very difficult to identify the related words even with electronic files.

** Lisa Star
** LisaStar@...

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Lukas Novak wrote:

> It is exactly the same in Elvish: the length of the syllables is important to
> decide where to place the stress (the same rule as in Latin: on the second
last,
> if long, othervise on the third last).

HOWEVER, Latin has the "mutus cum liquida" exception, whereby a stop followed
by "l" or "r" does not make the second syllable long by position, as this
combination is counted to the following syllable.  Elvish has no such
exception.

--
There is / one art                   || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less                    || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things                   || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness                 \\ -- Piet Hein

Raymond Brown wrote:

> (2) Alternatively, if the singular is *Avar, then the word will be _3rd_
> declension and the plural will be *Avares. This would be epicene with no
> separate feminine form.

This seems to be the right declension.  Einhard's life of Charlemagne
(on the Web at http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ein.html) contains
the following sentence in Section 13:

	 Maximum omnium, quae ab illo gesta sunt, bellorum praeter
	 Saxonicum huic bello successit, illud videlicet, quod
	 contra Avares sive Hunos susceptum est.

This text identifies the Avars with the Huns, interestingly.

--
There is / one art                   || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
no more / no less                    || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things                   || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness                 \\ -- Piet Hein

Deniz wrote:

> > I have just got the Qenya-lexicon. But I´ve got a little problem with
it. Of course, the words in the lexicon is not identical to LotR- style or
mature Quenya. And what I wonder is: How can i transform the QL-words into
mature Q?

But Ed is skeptical about the whole idea:

> I guess many (or some) will give you the "go ahead" signal! ;)
> It is Helge who initiate the notion of "mature" Qenya and ever since I
have been trying to explain that I do not agree _at all_ with this.

To avoid controvercies, I tend to use the term "LotR-style Quenya" these
days.

> For me there is nothing "wrong" (or _immature_) with the words in the
Qenya-Lexicon.

"Wrong" is of course a relative term. When Tolkien wrote the Lexicon around
1915, this was the only form of Q(u)enya that existed, so how could it be
wrong? What other kind of Quenya could it be compared to? But later,
Tolkien DID revise the language, in effect bringing forth new variants of
Quenya. Did this supersede or invalidate the earlier variants, to the
extent they were incompatible?

From an *internal* viewpoint, the answer must be yes. Like any other aspect
of the imaginary part of history chronicled by Tolkien, Quenya as an
"historical fact" must have existed in one form only (irrespective of its
diachronic development, dialects etc.) The past doesn't come in several
equally valid variants (despite the efforts of various revisionists).
Indeed Tolkien tried very hard to avoid internal contradictions of any
kind.

From an *external* viewpoint - allowing ourselves to remember that Quenya
has never actually existed as a living language but was simply invented by
a British author - we may of course see things quite differently. Then
every form and variant of Q(u)enya, from 1915 to 1973, can per se be
recognized as "valid". It is as if an artist were to paint many variants of
the same painting: We may like some of the variants better than others, but
we would not normally dismiss some of the paintings (even if the artist
himself called them less mature) as being "obsolete".

Those who study Tolkien's languages purely for academic purposes need not
not worry about the contradictions. But if you want to actually write in
Quenya, and you have to fall back on the QL to fill gaps in our vocabulary,
I don't think it is wrong to gently edit some of the early material to make
it conform with Tolkien's later ideas. Otherwise a Qenya word would
sometimes stand out as a sore thumb in a Quenya context, and the text as a
whole would become a hybrid that doesn't correspond to Tolkien's intentions
at ANY stage. However, we cannot transform "Qenya" into Quenya wholesale,
for the differences between the two are not as regular as the differences
between the "Noldorin" of the Etymologies and later Sindarin.

A few thoughts about adapting Qenya words to Quenya (much more could be
said about this):

1. Qenya tolerates the medial combination _kt_, but in Quenya this had
become _ht_ instead, _h_ here representing ach-Laut (e.g. _nuhta-_ "to
stunt" from primitive _nuktaa_, WJ:413). So if you were to use a Qenya word
like _lokta-_ "to sprout" in a Quenya context, I think it should be altered
to *_lohta-_. Of course, this works both ways: If for some reason you
wanted to write in 1915-style Qenya rather than LotR-style Quenya, and you
needed a verb "to stunt", _nuhta-_ should be altered to *_nukta-_.

2. Qenya allows syllabic _l_ to occur at the end of words, e.g. _vandl_
"staff". In Quenya, a vowel _i_ evolved in front of a syllabic _l_,
producing a more regular syllable. Thus the primitive word _tankla_ "pin,
brooch", after the loss of final short -a in Common Eldarin, did not remain
*_tankl_ in Quenya (as it would in Qenya) - it turned into _tankil_ (LR:389
s.v. TAK). So the Qenya word _vandl_ "staff" should evidently be altered to
*_vandil_ if we were to use it in a Quenya context. (Actually this extra
vowel is sometimes found in the Qenya Lexicon as well; for instance, after
writing _etl_ "ivy", Tolkien added _etil_ as an alternative.)

3. In LotR-style Quenya, the only consonants occurring finally are T, L, R,
S and N. No final consonant clusters are found, except _-nt_ as the ending
for dual dative. Qenya is somewhat more liberal; we have more final
clusters (e.g. _ilt_ "a stab", _mart_ "a piece of luck") and also more
final consonants (I distinctly remember seeing a Qenya word with final _k_,
but I cannot find it just now). In such cases we would have to add a final
vowel, or simplify the final clusters, or change a final consonant, to
adapt a word to LotR-style Quenya.

4. Qenya more often has intervocalic _s_ than does Quenya. In Quenya,
intervocalic _s_ is nearly always altered from earlier _th_, as in _nauthe_
> _nause_ "imagination" (the change Feanor hated so much). ORIGINAL
intervocalic S earlier became Z and was then altered to R in the Noldorin
dialect. If we were to use a Qenya word like _sausa_ ("bath water"!) in
Quenya, we would either have to assume that it represents earlier
*_sautha_, or we must change it to *_sauza_ > *_saura_ (and then it clashes
with a Quenya word for "foul", related to the name Sauron...you see how
tricky this is...:)

- HF

> >Eh, no offense but you actually left me alot more confused than I was. If
> >_avari_ is an actual Latin nom pl form, shouldn't the nom sg be _avarus_
> >then? Especially if there's a corresponding fem nom sg _avara_?
>
>
>Me seems you are right. I have not found this word in neither of my
>dictionaries, but the plural -i would imply that it belongs to the -o stem
>class
>(II. declination). The nouns of this class drop in nom. sg. the final -o
>only if
>their stem ends on -er ("puer"), otherwise they make a "sigmatic"
>nominative,
>adding -s, thus producing -os turning into -us.
>
>But, is this noun an -o stem actually?

Actually, based on the history of the Avars, I'd guess that the name isn't
Latin originally. Rather, it could be Avaric perhaps Germanic (since the
Romans/Latin speakers  likely first heard of them from Germanic people).

>I do not know, but if so, then it should
>be declined as a consonant stem, i.e. gen. "Avaris", dat. "Avari" etc.,
>nom. pl.
>"Avares". The more so as the -o stem declination would make it clash with
>the
>Latin adjective "avarus".
>
>But maybe it would be the best to stop this and try and find (nice phrase!)
>it
>up in a large-capacity dictionary, or to trace it in some Latin chronicle,
>wouldn't it?
>
>Lukas
>

Well, all Web dictionaries I consulted lacked the people name "avars", so
I'll see if I can find a better dictionary at school or the library. I can't
boast of very good access linguistic books ...

                                                   Andreas
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>
>--- In elfling@egroups.com, "Andreas Johansson" <and_yo@h...> wrote:
> > I can't help but think that you're asking for something
>somewhat "big".
> > There's lots and lots of words in QL, separated from LotR-style
>Quenya by a
> > large number of phonological, semantical, vobularic and
>derivational changes
> > (not to mention that fact that QL "Qenya" had a somewhat different
>position
> > in the mythos than LotR and Silmarillion era Quenya). Sure, one
>could give a
> > few basic guidelines for "converting" words, but in many cases they
>question
> > will rather be whether the word can be "kept" at all
> >
> >                                               Andreas
>
>  I totally agree with you on this one. It is hard to convert from the
>QL and like you´re saying in many cases nearly impossible. But it´s
>actually only those "few guidelines" I´m after, you know. I mean, I
>don´t even have them, so at least help me with them.
>
>
Well, you should probably ask someone more knowledgeable in this respect
than me.

Ask Helge Fauskanger for a copy of his Quettaparmar, BTW. It contains a
largish number of words with notes on "corrections" to confrom mature Quenya
phonolgy etc, which also allows you to pick up some "guidelines" (like "_kt_
have to become _ht_ wherever it occures since mature Quenya don't allow
_kt_/_ct_" for example).

                                            Andreas

PS For Edouard Kloczko (did I get your name right? If not, my apologies) and
people who think like him on "mature" Quenya. Later in his life, JRRT
evidently thought of his early work on "art-languages" as immature. Wouldn't
that validate the term "mature Quenya"? And how would the designation of
LotR-style Quenya as "mature Quenya" stop us from regarding Ql-style "Qenya"
as a true art-language on its own, while recognizing that it during JRRT's
life-time was gradually transformed into LotR-style "mature Quenya"?
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Lukas Novak schrieb am Ò[elfling] Re:(Simbelmyne) VergissmeinnichtÓ.
[2000/09/09 16:04]

> > In German there is a flower called
> >_Vergissmeinicht_ which is litterally "don't forget me !" I wonder wether
> >there are similar names in other languages.
>
> In Czech this flower (tiny light light blue florets with yellow dot in the
> centre, grows along streams or on wet meadows) is called "pomnenka"
> (pomne^nka),
> which is derived from the verb "pomni" (take into account! - only in
> imperative)
> and is related to many other words, as "zapomenout" "to forget",
> "rozpomenout
> se" "to remind oneself", "vzpomínka" "a recollection".

Thank you all for your replies ! It looks as though we have an all-european
phenomenon here.  Yepp, the german word refers to a flower with small blue
blossom. Latin Myosotis (or rather Greek). The name probably refers to more
or less the same flower with regional variations. Middle-Earth's
_simbelmyne_ seems to have been just a little different. Perhaps there is a
painting by J.R.R.T. that shows it. Anybody know ?

The stem is
> apparently "MEN-", "MIN-" (long i), "MN-" (the "po-" is a prefix, or so I
> believe) maybe it is the same as "mind"  or
> "mens" (latin) or rather "mneemee" (Greek "memory") ???

They are ALL related. They all come from a root I.E. *men- "to think, be
mentally avtive". Cf. also Sanskrit _manyate_ "thinks", Lithuanian _menù_
"remember" and many many more...

-David Kiltz

Myosotis and Forget-me-not are indeed the same flowers, with small
white (or purple) flowers.

I also wonder if Tolkien intended his _simbelmyne_ to be a kind of
_myosotis_... They probably are as the Riders of Rohan had a definite
English style, but it's hard to be affirmative.

Anyone out there with more info???

Melhael

>  Out of curiosity, how would you interpret Runvar in any Tolkien
language? Specially Quenya. I'll name my sword like that (it means 'secret
lore guard/warrior' in Old Norse) and I haven't been able to find a 'folk
etimology' in Quenya for it so far.

Well, try "dirty hand"! (Root RUN "flat of hand" + _vaara_ "soiled,
dirty"!)

But there is also an alternative root RUN "red, glowing" (PM:366); if you
connect this with the colour of blood, you could interpret the name as
"blood-soiled" = blood-stained. Perhaps rather more fitting for a sword?
(The actual Q word for "blood" is _serce_ or _yaar_, though.)

- HF

>This seems to be the right declension.  Einhard's life of Charlemagne
>(on the Web at http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ein.html)
>contains
>the following sentence in Section 13:
>
> Maximum omnium, quae ab illo gesta sunt, bellorum praeter
> Saxonicum huic bello successit, illud videlicet, quod
> contra Avares sive Hunos susceptum est.
>
>This text identifies the Avars with the Huns, interestingly.

Perhaps not very; practically ALL nomadic peoples that came from the east
during medieval times very associated with the Huns. Avars, Magyars,
Pechenegs to name a few, indeed the word "Hun" seems in many cases to have
been used interchangeably with "nomadic raiders from the east"
(interestingly I've never seen or heard that anyone calling the Mongols
"Huns" tho').

                                              Andreas
>
>--
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><jcowan@...>
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>with art- / lessness                 \\ -- Piet Hein
>
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> >
>
>Well, all Web dictionaries I consulted lacked the people name "avars", so
>I'll see if I can find a better dictionary at school or the library. I
>can't
>boast of very good access linguistic books ...
>
>                                                   Andreas

[WARNING! Whining ahead!]

AARRGH! The single Latin dictionary at school is a) dedicated solely to
words that occures in the Classics, b) so unimaginatively old that it prints
the Latin bits in antiqua and the Swedish translations and coments in
fraktur (Swedish largely abandoned fraktur early last century)! Yeck! Hope
for better luck at the Library ... Then perhaps that won't be necessary as
as you helpful folks seems to've sorted out my question on Avars. In the
case someone hasn't figured, the original question by my suspition that the
name _Avari_ is on of JRRT's linguistic "puns", meaning designating a group
of Elves in Quenya and "Avars" in Latin. Now this apparently isn't the case
(the Latin plural being _avares_).

                                               Andreas
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>  In Old Icelandic -rik means power or ruler, I think, if it's the same
>ending then Theoderik I guess would mean something like 'powerful
>ruler', or maybe it's unrelated and means something else entirely, I
>can't tell.
>  My two cents.
>  Angasule

You're right about _-rik_. Infact, it's the North Germanic reflex of PIE
*_regs_ "king", cognate of words like _rex_ and _rajah_. There's also the
masc name _Erik_ (_Eric_, _Eirik(r)_ etc), the same word with with a prefix
meaning "single".

David Kiltz said that _theode-_ indeed means "ruler", so _Theoderik_ means
something like "ruler-ruler"!

                                              Andreas
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