--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, <ethuilbereth@g...> wrote:

> Ab idhrinn êr bronad,

> After a year of sickness,

Just one question: What is _êr_ supposed to mean? Should it be
_er_ "one, single, alone" (VT42:10)?
Imo, this would seem appropriate, if the dog's life had lasted only
one year (of sickness). Otherwise I would leave _er_ out. (But maybe
you wanted to say something different that I didn't understand.)

*Erna

Erna tence:

>Should it be _er_ "one, single, alone" (VT42:10)?

According to the review at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/hfauskanger.doc
the correct reading is in fact _êr_. But what about the actual source
(which I don't have)?

>Imo, this would seem appropriate, if the dog's life had lasted only
>one year (of sickness). Otherwise I would leave _er_ out.

Or of course substitute _en_, the genitive particle.


Elhath

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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhath *" <sp12@h...> wrote:


> According to the review at
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/hfauskanger.doc
> the correct reading is in fact _êr_. But what about the actual
source
> (which I don't have)?

Yes, probably _êr_ is correct, I'm sorry.

VT42:10 (regarding the name of the river _Erui_): "In Eldarin 'er'
was not used in counting in series: it meant 'one, single, alone'".
VT42:24 (Apendix): "The stems of the Common Eldarin numerals (which
up to 12 agree closely in the derived languages) were 1 'single'
ER; 'one, first of a series' MIN" [...]

If we assume that the OS form is _*er_, the vowel would presumably
be legthened.

> Or of course substitute _en_, the genitive particle.

Yes of course, or even better!

Erna

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OK OK I made it up! (in my version of Coleridge's Kubla Khan). It's a fairly
logical idea though I think.

Mark
>
> > I saw _suin_ in a recent post here ('Coleridge') and also in a totally
> > unrelated article by Thorsten Renk (Part III, 6., right near the end
> > of the article): http://sindarin.weet.us/mutations.html
>
>I'd like to point out that it ought to read _*suin_ in the article (my
>mistake...) and that I mention this form as a possibility, not that I
>actually recommend it ;-)
>
>* Thorsten
>
>
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>
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>>if the dog's life had lasted only one year (of sickness).

That's not what I'm trying to say. Just that she passed away
immediately following one year of sickness (she was 10 years old).

> VT42:10 (regarding the name of the river _Erui_): "In Eldarin 'er'
> was not used in counting in series: it meant 'one, single, alone'".
> VT42:24 (Apendix): "The stems of the Common Eldarin numerals (which
> up to 12 agree closely in the derived languages) were 1 'single'
> ER; 'one, first of a series' MIN" [...]
>
> If we assume that the OS form is _*er_, the vowel would presumably
> be legthened.

So you're saying that _êr_ and _min_ have different functions? Well, I
don't mean 'first of a series' certainly, but I don't mean 'single'
either. The indefinite article covers the function in English. As
Sindarin lacks the indefinite article, I thought I'd add 'one' to be
clear. Maybe I shouled leave it out? (I don't have VT42 so I can't
reference the rest: [...]. Is it important?)

> > Or of course substitute _en_, the genitive particle.
>
> Yes of course, or even better!

_Ab idhrinn .. e-bronad,_

I lyth edlothiar
Amanda

Amanda wrote:

> _Ab idhrinn .. e-bronad,_

Though there is no attested example, the mixed mutation is believed
to cause the form _e mronad_.

Thinking it over again, it occurs to me that maybe it might be
possible to use _mîn_ "one" as well. If you were to say "after two
years", you would use _tâd_. So why not _min_ for "one"?

Erna

Erna wrote:

> Though there is no attested example, the mixed mutation is believed
> to cause the form _e mronad_.

Ah, yes. I was thinking of the mixed mutation for just b-, not br-.
Why is there no hyphen in your _e mronad_? Is it unnecessary?

> Thinking it over again, it occurs to me that maybe it might be
> possible to use _mîn_ "one" as well. If you were to say "after two
> years", you would use _tâd_. So why not _min_ for "one"?

You wrote earlier:

> VT42:10 (regarding the name of the river _Erui_): "In Eldarin 'er'
> was not used in counting in series: it meant 'one, single, alone'".
> VT42:24 (Apendix): "The stems of the Common Eldarin numerals (which
> up to 12 agree closely in the derived languages) were 1 'single'
> ER; 'one, first of a series' MIN" [...]

Is this to say that _mîn_ would mean 'one, first of a series'?

I lyth edlothiar
Amanda

Amanda wrote:

> Why is there no hyphen in your _e mronad_?

It should read _e-mronad_ :)


> Is this to say that _mîn_ would mean 'one, first of a series'?

_mîn_, _tâd_, _neled_ [...] are cardinal numbers "one", "two",
"three" [...], they were used in counting in series.
_êr_ is special and meant "one, single, alone".

Ordinal numbers are e.g. _minui_ "first", _tadui_ "second" etc.
There is also _erui_ "first, single, alone"

What I wanted to say in my previous post is that it doesn't seem
wrong to write _mîn idhrinn e-mroniad_ "one year of sickness".
By the way, numbers are written before the nouns.

*Erna

A lot of interesting information has been published with the 'Addenda and
Corrigenda' to the Etymologies. One of the most intriguing topics for me
were the entries giving some details on how intensification in Noldorin
(and Quenya) works, and I finally got around to writing up an analysis of
this topic (as a side remark, I can't possibly imagine that publishing VT
in quicker succession would do any good - as you can see, I'm still stuck
in writing up observations from VT45 and previous issues...).

Anyway, I am happy to present my conclusions as a new article

Intensifying prefixes in the Etymologies
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/intensification.html

on my site

Parma Tyelpelassiva
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/index.html

Enjoy!

* Thorsten

Thanks, Erna. I'll use _mîn idhrinn e-mronad_.

Regarding _*suin_ in _sui(n?) dathar nîr lîn hi_, Mark wrote:
>It's a fairly logical idea though I think.

I agree. However, it is not necessary to use it in this case, as there
are examples with and without the definite article before a noun with
a possesive. (I hope that makes sense!)

I lyth edlothiar
Amanda

Mae govannen!

Here follows a Sindarin translation of my Quenya poem
_Lótesse_ "May". I hope it's any good.

LOTHRON

Ae! Lothron galen 
Sí, sí bain
Melin lû hen
Venel elu dîn
Nîn ring dîn
Hîth gwirith bennin
Sí laeg-bain
Melin lothron
Ir aew linnar
Ir lyth rim
Lû vain, vell
Ae! Lothron galen 

Ai! Laica Lótesse
Sie, sie vanima
Melinye lúme sina
Arwa helwa helleo
Arwa helce nénion
Hísier Víresseo vanwe
Sie vanyave vinya
Melinye lótesse
Íre aiwi lindar
Íre lóti rimbe nar
Vanima, melda lúme
Ai! Laica Lótesse
  
Ah! Green May 
So, so beautiful 
I love this time 
With a pale-blue sky 
With icy-cold waters 
Mists of april gone  
So fairly new 
I love may 
When birds sing 
When flowers are many 
A fair, beloved time 
Ah! Green May

Petri Tikka
www.geocities.com/petristikka

>Regarding _*suin_ in _sui(n?) dathar nîr lîn hi_, Mark wrote:
> >It's a fairly logical idea though I think.
>
>I agree. However, it is not necessary to use it in this case, as there
>are examples with and without the definite article before a noun with
>a possesive. (I hope that makes sense!)
>
>I lyth edlothiar
>Amanda


dambent mark:

Perfect sense. I think one needs to make an aesthetic judgement in this
cases about what simply sounds better. i think the absence of articles
before qualified nouns (eg, 'meril bess din') in the king's letter gives it
a hard, english-like quality suitable for sindarin written by an ancient
human culture, where as the soft tinkling vowels of noun phrases with
article and qualifier like 'i innas lin' and 'i eneth lin' in the Ae adar
nin give it an intriguing ethereal, mystical sound. Perhaps. that's just my
subjective impression.

m

> Venel elu dîn
> With a pale-blue sky 

> Petri Tikka
> www.geocities.com/petristikka

Gorgeous poem! :D

May I ask one question... Why did you lenit "Menel" in this line?

gwendeth

Hello all!

As I continue to work on a Sindarin translation for Pentecost, I've
come across the following wee concerns.

*  a word for "gently" (okay, that's from another, original project)

* the Elvish dialogue list has "tolthathon" for "will send", but in the
resources that I have, that seems to translate to "make come". God does
quite a bit of sending in this reading; I'm wondering if there's a
different/better way to express this?

Hannon le!

abiah

I've just realised that I'd set my membership up to not recievce
messages, so I apologise for the length of time it has taken me to
say 'Thank you' for the help in translating Raven.

Danke

Istya

actually I'm in South Africa... the only tolkien language person on
the this continent I think. looking for Quenya Speakers near me to
talk to... :)  hey wow thanks for the name help tho.

Gwendeth wrote:

> > Venel elu dîn
> > With a pale-blue sky 
>
> > Petri Tikka
> > www.geocities.com/petristikka
>
> Gorgeous poem! :D
>
> May I ask one question... Why did you lenit "Menel" in this line?

Thank you very much.

I lenited _Menel_ 'Heaven' because it's the object of _melin_ 'I
love'. The English translation is a translation of the Quenya
version, which is slightly different.

I'd like to know if there are any errors in the poem, if someone
could help.

Petri

Petri, I take your *_sí_ is (partially) based on _sie_ on the Quenya side?
Did you consider writing it as *_sî_ to distinguish from attested _sí_
"here" ;]P? It certainly looks subtle enough to be something even Tolkien
might have thought up... ;]

(One should probably also mention David Salo's NS adverb *_sin_ "in this
manner, thus" in this context, found in standalone use in the TTT movie
dialogue.[1])

For further information: Welsh apparently uses a different word for
modifying adjectives (_mor_) than the standalone adverb (_felly_), and so
does Finnish, though in the latter the words are very close [coming from the
same root].). Spanish _así_ and _tan_ are again further apart
etymologically.


Elhath


[1] http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_ttt.htm#nach

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Your poem is very beautiful!

Just one question: Q _sie_ 'thus' is said to be "derived from _SI-
_ 'this', 'here', 'now' (V:385)". (VT43:24)

Is S _sí_ ("here") supposed to mean "thus", "so" as well?

Erna

Elhath wrote:

> Petri, I take your *_sí_ is (partially) based on _sie_ on the
> Quenya side? Did you consider writing it as *_sî_ to distinguish
> from attested _sí_ "here" ;]P? It certainly looks subtle enough
> to be something even Tolkien might have thought up... ;]

I got it from a Sindarin translation by Pavel Iosad
(<www.elvish.org/gwaith/atholad.htm>): "[sí] is a hypothetical
cognate of Quenya _sië_, isolated from _násië_". To
distinguish it from attested _sí_ with a circumflex seems a little
bit too subtle.

> (One should probably also mention David Salo's NS adverb
> *_sin_ "in this manner, thus" in this context, found in
> standalone use in the TTT movie dialogue.[1])

This may be better for "so", as it does not collide with any other
Sindarin word.

Petri Tikka

> Sí, sí bain
> So, so beautiful
Where is _sí_ 'so' in this sense (in any sense)? Many people, I
believe, would translate _sí_ as 'here.' (_le nallon sí di-nguruthos_)

> Venel elu dîn
> With a pale-blue sky
>I lenited _Menel_ 'Heaven' because it's the object of _melin_ 'I
love'.
Then maybe you could signify that by adding _a_ or _ar_ 'and'
(whichever you prefer) and by adding periods at the end of sentences,
just for clarity...

> Nîn ring dîn
> With icy-cold waters
What's _dîn_ here? If it's 'silent', you may wish to lenite it _dhîn_,
and have seperate S and Q English translations.

> Hîth gwirith bennin
> Mists of april gone
Capitalize _gwirith_? Do you want to add the genitive _en_ to be
clear? (_Hîth en-Gwirith_, I think) Or you could make it a compound:
'April-mists' _Gwirith-chîth_, but I don't know if that's
acceptable...
Also, do you mean 'Mists of April (are) gone'? If so, I'd lenite
_bennin_ as the object. If not, where's the rest of the sentence?

> Ir lyth rim
> When flowers are many
No problem with this, but I would change the word order (just personal
preference) to _Ir rim i lyth_.


I think the rest is good. Melin 'lîr lîn.

Melin lothron
Amanda

> *  a word for "gently" (okay, that's from another, original project)

What's the context? 'softly' might do, if we have a word for that...

> * the Elvish dialogue list has "tolthathon" for "will send", but in the
> resources that I have, that seems to translate to "make come". God does
> quite a bit of sending in this reading; I'm wondering if there's a
> different/better way to express this?

Actually, it's _ad tolthathon_ for "I will send"
(http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm#dartho), but as God is
sending a lot and this phrase doesn't sound good (to me), I would try
to find something else. I'll keep thinking...

Speaking of which, I wrote in 'Pentecost approaches':
> Pân i Adar gâr, hyn mîn.
> All the father has, they are mine
> All that the Father has is mine

>Hmmm... I don't know what to say about the first part of this (_Pân
>i Adar gâr_), except perhaps that the _i_ is the relative pronoun,
>and so your literal translation is 'All that the Father has...' I'll
keep
>thinking...

Well, I finished thinking. How about _Gerin (naid) bain i Adar gâr_
('I possess all [things] that the Father possesses')? This eliminates
'to be' and 'mine'. You can put _naid_ 'things' in if you want, or
leave it out if you don't mind using _pân_ as a noun.

I hope that helps.

I lyth edlothiar
Amanda

Sorry, everyone, about the repeat of the question on sí. I sent my
post before it was brought up, but my posts are still going through
the moderator. So you don't have to reiterate your thoughts!

Amanda

--- ethuilbereth@... wrote:
> > Venel elu dîn
> > With a pale-blue sky
> >I lenited _Menel_ 'Heaven' because it's the object
> of _melin_ 'I
> love'.
> Then maybe you could signify that by adding _a_ or
> _ar_ 'and'
> (whichever you prefer) and by adding periods at the
> end of sentences,
> just for clarity...

Well, this is a poem, normal punctuation rules don't
apply:-)

>
> > Hîth gwirith bennin
> > Mists of april gone
> Capitalize _gwirith_? Do you want to add the
> genitive _en_ to be
> clear? (_Hîth en-Gwirith_, I think) Or you could
> make it a compound:
> 'April-mists' _Gwirith-chîth_, but I don't know if
> that's
> acceptable...
> Also, do you mean 'Mists of April (are) gone'? If
> so, I'd lenite
> _bennin_ as the object. If not, where's the rest of
> the sentence?

The adjectives are not lenited if they are used in a
predicative sense (with the copula omitted) IMHO.

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

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Hi,
--- imabiah <imabiah@...> wrote:
> Hello all!
>
> As I continue to work on a Sindarin translation for
> Pentecost, I've
> come across the following wee concerns.
>
> *  a word for "gently" (okay, that's from another,
> original project)

N moe 'soft' in Etym?

>
> * the Elvish dialogue list has "tolthathon" for
> "will send", but in the
> resources that I have, that seems to translate to
> "make come". God does
> quite a bit of sending in this reading; I'm
> wondering if there's a
> different/better way to express this?

How about _hortha-_ "speed, urge, set in motion"
KHOR-?

Interestingly in Q we have to distinct words for
"send": _menta-_ (VT41) and _lelta-_ (VT47).

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

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Here follows an original Quenya text.

WINYAMO TYERME

Winyamo nanye:
Lala lil uminye
Ilquain ná nóte auríva:
Mo nessa, mo yára, mo enwina

Loar tulir lencave ar lintave:
Sintante ar nartar ve mere Ilúvatar
Lá valye Valar
Ar Maiar lá ciltar
Man nauva vinya oiale

A Yésus, ánin anta Aire-Fea
I cuinien ve aimo
An ni véla tye ento
Ya rato, a Héru, nea

A YOUNGSTER'S PRAYER

I am a youngster:
I deny it no more
To all there is a numer of days:
Someone young, someone old, someone ancient

Years come slowly and swiftly:
They fade and kindle as the All-Father wants
The powers are not powerful
And the angels do not decide
Who will be new for an everlasting age

O Jesus, give me the Holy Spirit
That I may live as a saint
Until I see you next
And I hope, O Lord, it will be soon

Petri Tikka
www.geocities.com/petristikka

Nice poem! Questions I have a few... (now I speak
Yoda...)
--- Petri Tikka <pstikka@...> wrote:

> WINYAMO TYERME
>
> Winyamo nanye:
> Lala lil uminye

This 'lil' eludes me...

> Ilquain ná nóte auríva:

Sounds awkward? Maybe rephrase it "to all days are
counted"? Just musing

> Mo nessa, mo yára, mo enwina
>
> Loar tulir lencave ar lintave:

I am not a big fan of present continuous but in my
opinion it would fit here as the years are doing just
that: coming.

> Sintante ar nartar ve mere Ilúvatar

Why the pronominal suffix on sinta and not on narta?
Do you think it's unnecessary to suffix both verbs if
the first one is already suffixed?

> Lá valye Valar

A, the ever-controversial negation:-) How about using
the ala- prefix, that is quite well attested?

> Ar Maiar lá ciltar

Is *cilta- attested as such? Can't recall it at the
moment. Maybe _nam-_ or _nav-_?

> Man nauva vinya oiale
>
> A Yésus, ánin anta Aire-Fea
> I cuinien ve aimo
> An ni véla tye ento
> Ya rato, a Héru, nea

A clever trick:-)

Shine on,

Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

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> Is S _sí_ ("here") supposed to mean "thus", "so" as well?

> Many people, I believe, would translate _sí_ as 'here.' (_le nallon sí
> di-nguruthos_)

And similar remarks. Please don't forget that _sí_ is translated by
Tolkien as 'now' as well:

_le nallon sí di-nguruthos!_ is translated by Tolkien in Letters:278 'to
thee I cry now in the shadow of death'. While this may not fit into a
'tidy' version of Sindarin, it is nevertheless part of Tolkien's Sindarin.

* Thorsten

> * the Elvish dialogue list has "tolthathon" for "will send", but in
the
> resources that I have, that seems to translate to "make come". God
does
> quite a bit of sending in this reading; I'm wondering if there's a
> different/better way to express this?

What do you think of edanna-* (to give forth/out)?


---------------
Tiro i Melain i vâd lín!
Eruthalion

Tamás wrote:

> Nice poem! Questions I have a few... (now I speak
> Yoda...)

Thank you, fond of it I am myself. (Ain't it funny how Hungarian and
Yodaese can resemble each other? :-))

> Petri Tikka wrote:
>
> > Lala lil uminye
>
> This 'lil' eludes me...

_lil_ 'more' (PE14:80). 'I deny (it) no more'.
Probably an anglicism.

> > Ilquain ná nóte auríva:
>
> Sounds awkward? Maybe rephrase it "to all days are
> counted"? Just musing

No, the meaning is not same. I meant something like "Everyone is of
a certain age".

> > Loar tulir lencave ar lintave:
>
> I am not a big fan of present continuous but in my
> opinion it would fit here as the years are doing just
> that: coming.

This is meant as a general truth, so aorist fits better.

> > Sintante ar nartar ve mere Ilúvatar
>
> Why the pronominal suffix on sinta and not on narta?
> Do you think it's unnecessary to suffix both verbs if
> the first one is already suffixed?

Yes, I do. Cf. "_-nte_, inflexion of 3 plural where no subject is
previously mentioned" (UT:410, in my copy). As _-nte_ 'they" is
already established as the subject in _sintante_, it would be
redundant to put it in _narta-_.

> > Lá valye Valar
>
> A, the ever-controversial negation:-) How about using
> the ala- prefix, that is quite well attested?

OK, that sound good.

> > Ar Maiar lá ciltar
>
> Is *cilta- attested as such? Can't recall it at the
> moment. Maybe _nam-_ or _nav-_?

No, it is not. It is a coinage by Helge
(<www.uib.no/People/hnohf/yessesse.htm>), but it actually means 'to
divide'. _#Cil-_ 'choose' is the word I had in mind. But _#nam-
_ 'judge' (VT41:13) would be even better.

> > An ni véla tye ento
> > Ya rato, a Héru, nea
>
> A clever trick:-)

É. :)

Petri Tikka
www.geocities.com/petristikka/elvish