Hi everyone,

I am happy to announce that a Russian translation of my Quenya-course is
now available -
as usual the link can be found on Parma Tyelpelassiva
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/
(and I don't speak any Russian, so I just cross my fingers and hope the
translation is
nice).

In addition I have put a few more Sindarin poems online.

* Thorsten

Aiya,

thanks for correction, even probably it will not change the sense of
translation... but for love of precision...  ;))

Fradeve Virgilio


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: A.W.T. [mailto:Ti@...]
Shouldn't it be:

Quant'è bella giovinezza,
che si fugge tuttavia.
Chi vuol esser lieto, sia,
di doman non c'è certezza.

Edhil ;-)

Hi,
I'm trying to make a little translation for a friend to write this
sentence on a bow :

One bow to rule them all

Minë cú/quinta an turë te ilya

I think quinta is correct for a weapon (bow).
Is there any mistakes ?
Thanks, you all are always very kind !
Berylla

Aiya!
Thanks for the translation of the finnish hymn, found it nice as I have a
finnish grandmother ( and hopefully someday I'll learn Finnish!). Do u have
any tips for starting to learn Elvish?I know none and would love to learn
some so I can take part fully in Elfling!Thanks, kat
P.S How did u get hold of the hymn? R u finnish or something!?

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> One bow to rule them all
>
> Minë cú/quinta an turë te ilya

the 'one xxx to rule them all' sentence has variously
(is this a word?) been translated many times in
Quenya... it sounds ok to me (and i think i have seen
it in a ringverse translation)

> I think quinta is correct for a weapon (bow).
> Is there any mistakes ?

the word is quinga, i don't know where you did find
quinta!! In LOTR Tolkien says that luuva is 'bow', but
i am not sure if the word refers simply to the shape,
or the instrument

that means, if you talk about 'your luuva' to an Elf,
i am not sure if he would find it awkward, like if
someone told you about 'his crescent'

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Maybe this would also work:

_Minë cú/quinga turien/?herien te ilyë_.

That is, I'd rather use a gerund in the dative than a "simple" infinitive to
express "purpose" (though turë/turië may work just as well :)).
I am not at all sure about _te ilye_ (except that it should probably be
_ilye_, i.e. plural, instead of the sg. _ilya_). _Ilye_ is attested in front
of nouns, but I don't know about putting it after one (or, as here, after an
independent pronoun that it clearly refers to).
Maybe one of the loremasters can help out :).

Hísilómë


Hi,
I'm trying to make a little translation for a friend to write this
sentence on a bow :

One bow to rule them all

Minë cú/quinta an turë te ilya

I think quinta is correct for a weapon (bow).
Is there any mistakes ?
Thanks, you all are always very kind !
Berylla










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I used to have amongst my 'Favourites' the URL of a comparative
timeline of the development of Sindarin and Welsh.  Unfortunately, my
computer crashed (big time!) and had to have its hard disk
reformatted, so I lost the URL.  Can anyone help?

I'm trying to translate this sentence:
"Saura Feanáro ahyanë rimbar engwi lambessë, mal lemyas anvanya lambion."
and I've found some little dificult in "saura" and "lemyas". I didn't found
nothing for these two words. Can somebody help me?

My translation take this form:
"Saura Feanor had change many things in the language, but lemyas the most
pretty of the languages"

Another doubt of mine,  what is the correct form, "rimbar" or "rimbë"?

P.S.: I'm sorry by my english, I dont speak or write it so well...

Thus spoke Nereruo!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi everyone!  Matt from St. Paul, MN here...

I'm looking to translate the following phrase, can anyone help?

I'm trying to translate the following English phrase into Quenya.
I've gone as far as I can go without getting too overwhelmed, and
spending too much time.

"God's Treasures: Sam, Emilia" (note comma, and colon)

-God: Eru
-Treasure: harma, plural: harmar
-Sam: "God listened," Erulasto
-Emilia: "rival," Cotume

This is what I have so far:
"Eru harmar: Erulasto, Cotume"

How do I write "God's" possessive, along with "treasures?"

Any other suggestions on how to write my above phrase in Quenya?

Thank you so much for your help!!!

Matt Nowaczewski
St. Paul, MN

I think I'm now pretty close, but could use a feedback...

"God's Treasures: Sam, Emilia"  (Sam: God Listened) (Emilia: Rival)
"Harmar Eruva: Erulasto, Cotume"

> How do I write "God's" possessive, along with
> "treasures?"

with the possessive ending -o: Eruo

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I received my copy of VT47 yesterday, and I couldn't help reading
through all of it in one
go - there is a lot of interesting material, maybe not so much in the
actual text but also
in the Editorial Notes, for which Patrick Wynne has done an excellent
job bringing
the forms into the context of other interesting notes (some yet
unpublished).

First, this issue basically confirmed a growing suspicion when I started
looking into Tolkien's
texts in more detail. A publication of late material relevant for Quenya
or Sindarin, regardless
of the quantity left, will not lead to an emerging coherent language as
a 'final solution' .
In VT47, we find examples where CE roots are changed from what we see in
the Etymologies,
Quenya phonology changed from what is described in 'Quendi and Eldar'
and explanations
for forms which differ from previous explanation (Patrick Wynne
discusses e.g. two different
interpretations of _im_ as a reflexive (It was Narvi himself who...) and
an emphatic separate
nominative in VT47:37-38). Thus, even the hope that publication of late
material can be used
to falsify some ideas will at most only partially come true - most
theories are centered around
the corpus texts of roughly LOTR-time Sindarin and may _at that time_
still have been correct.

Having said that, I would like to share some of the gems I found on my
first reading - more to
come, stay tuned ;-)

* VT47:33 mentiones a Sindarin diminuitive ending _-ig_ in the example
_neth > nethig_ - that seems
a bit similar to  _-eg_ found in _Nogotheg_ 'dwarvlet' (WJ) - though it
may be without the apparent
negative connotation.

* VT47:37 has an interesting Quenya paradigma of reflexive pronouns -
apparently composed by
combining _im_ with the set of  non-emphatic nominative pronouns. We
thus get an interesting glimpse
on Tolkien's late views on the Quenya pronomial system:

S. 1 _imne, imni_ Pl. 1a imme b inwe
S. 2a intye b imle Pl. 2 inde, *imde
S. 3 inse, imse, insa Pl. 3. inte, *imte

Thus, we can identify 1st sg. _ni_ 2. sg. _le_ and _tye_  and 3. sg.
_se, sa_ 3pl. _te_ with forms seen
elsewhere. Apparently, at that time Tolkien had a distinction in 2nd sg.
(presumably formal/informal) as well
as a distinction between 2nd person sg/pl where we find _d_ as the
characteristical consonant.

* VT47:21 quotes an interesting note about the Quenya relative pronoun -
we find
'who'  _ye_ pl. _i_ (as personal relative pronoun) and
'that' _ya_ (as impersonal relative pronoun)

It is tempting to use that as the solution to the long-standing problem
of establishing the relation between
_i_ and _ya_ as relative pronouns in Quenya - but then we have _ar i Eru
i or ilyë mahalmar eä tennoio*_
*(UT:317) 'and of the One who is above all thrones for ever' where we
see _i_ used in singular.

* VT47:30-31 has a Quenya affix _-ye_ 'and' which can be used similar to
the Latin _-que_, thus we see
_imbi Menel Kemenye_ 'between heaven and earth'

So - there are lots of interesting ideas and insights to be gained, and
I certainly will spend more time investigating
this very interesting issue. My thanks to Patrick Wynne for his work!

* Thorsten

The research I've done, says that "va" would be possessive..."Eruva"
Could this be right also, or am I off?

Thorsten Renk wrote:

> * VT47:33 mentiones a Sindarin diminuitive ending _-ig_ in the example
> _neth > nethig_ - that seems
> a bit similar to  _-eg_ found in _Nogotheg_ 'dwarvlet' (WJ) - though it
> may be without the apparent
> negative connotation.

There is also _lhewig_, the back-formed singular of _lhaw_ "ears".


--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /'Aestan ~\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Thorsten Renk <trenk@p...> wrote:
>
> * VT47:33 mentiones a Sindarin diminuitive ending _-ig_ in the example
> _neth > nethig_ - that seems
> a bit similar to  _-eg_ found in _Nogotheg_ 'dwarvlet' (WJ) - though it
> may be without the apparent
> negative connotation.

Don't you think that _-ig_ denotes one of a pair, e.g.  _lhewig_, _lhaw_
"ears"? Cf. Maltese: _bajd_ (eggs) vs. _bajda_ (egg)!

Edhil

umm a small question this time, can a pronoun like "I" or "you" be
suffix to the word "and"?
i.e.
    Meldon : Mainen lenna eselye?  (how are you?)
    Tauro  : mára, arlye?          (Good and you?)

or would and independent pronoun HAVE to be used

    Tauro  : mára, ar elye?

sorry if this is really obvious!
also on  the subject on telling the time, could you use the dative
and ablative case joined to numbers?
i.e.
   Cainenen mine  =  ten to one (cainen+filler vowel -e- +dative -n)
   Cainenello mine = ten from(past) one (cainen +filler vowel -e-
                                                  + abblative -llo)

what do you think then??
thanks in advance

Hi
I'm pretty new at all of this. So please excuse my ignorance.
I'm interested in the numerical system and calendar year. But I'm not
find a whole lot of information on the web. When writing a calendar
date would it just be the month, day and year? Or would it be written
diffrently?
For instance would May 11th 2005 just be

Lotesse 11 5002?

I would gladly read any information you could point me towards.
Thank you,
Laura

Thanks to everyone !

Gildor Inglorion wrote:
>the word is quinga, i don't know where you did find quinta!!

I find it on a Italian-Quenya dictionary, a file taken from the book written by
Kloczko.
May be it is just a mistake in the Italian version or in this file.

Namárië,
Berylla Baggins



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> For instance would May 11th 2005 just be
>
> Lotesse 11 5002?
>
> I would gladly read any information you could point
> me towards.

Although we know that the numbers go 'backwards',
there is no guess about how the dates are formatted

the best sample i can think of is KL where we have
'nelchaenen uin Echuir' which is a very predictable
and normal way to say a date (thirty-first day of the
Stirring)

the best rendering of this in Quenya would be '11
Lotesseo' (note the use of genitive)

i can't decide where to put the year number... I have
the impression that the Middle-earthians liked the
format '...of the XXth year of the Xth Age' or 'of the
XX reckoning'



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> I find it on a Italian-Quenya dictionary, a file
> taken from the book written by Kloczko.
> May be it is just a mistake in the Italian version
> or in this file.

yes.. i suggest using the Ardalambion wordlists which
are of course recently updated :)

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A.W.T. wrote:
>
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Thorsten Renk <trenk@p...> wrote:
>
>>* VT47:33 mentiones a Sindarin diminuitive ending _-ig_ in the example
>>_neth > nethig_ - that seems
>>a bit similar to  _-eg_ found in _Nogotheg_ 'dwarvlet' (WJ) - though it
>>may be without the apparent
>>negative connotation.
>
>
> Don't you think that _-ig_ denotes one of a pair, e.g.  _lhewig_, _lhaw_
> "ears"? Cf. Maltese: _bajd_ (eggs) vs. _bajda_ (egg)!
>
> Edhil
>

It surely does, but it can still be diminutive in origin.
Languages do that kind of thing you know.  E.g. all Romance
languages have a word for 'ear' that derives from AURICULU,
with a totally superfluous diminutive ending (as in many
other words in Romance).

--

/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /'Aestan ~\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Melroch 'Aestan <melroch@m...> wrote:
> A.W.T. wrote:
> >
> > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Thorsten Renk <trenk@p...> wrote:
> >
> >>* VT47:33 mentiones a Sindarin diminuitive ending _-ig_ in the example
> >>_neth > nethig_ - that seems
> >>a bit similar to  _-eg_ found in _Nogotheg_ 'dwarvlet' (WJ) - though it
> >>may be without the apparent
> >>negative connotation.
> >
> >
> > Don't you think that _-ig_ denotes one of a pair, e.g.  _lhewig_, _lhaw_
> > "ears"? Cf. Maltese: _bajd_ (eggs) vs. _bajda_ (egg)!
> >
> > Edhil
> >
>
> It surely does, but it can still be diminutive in origin.
> Languages do that kind of thing you know.  E.g. all Romance
> languages have a word for 'ear' that derives from AURICULU,
> with a totally superfluous diminutive ending (as in many
> other words in Romance).


Oh sure, it can - if Prof. Tolkien decided it to be like that ;-)

If it's actually meant to be a diminutive, speculation why it is
so might go on: e.g. given a comprehension of _lhaw_ (ear) as
a whole apparatus in the sense of acoustic device, "one ear"
could be seen as ("small") part of it - whence rendered in
a diminutive form -> lhewig. Nothing but speculating :)

Edhil

I apologize if this has been asked in the recent past.

Can someone tell me if the (late?) sources have something concerning the
etymology of the (obviously lately quite dominant) personal pronoun _se_?
I'm working on a grammar bit article in Finnish and this would be useful to
know as thoroughly as possible (and right now I don't remember squat...). ;]

Also, what do you think would be the genitive of _te_? "taio"? "tieo"?

Thanks.


Elhath

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And don't forget we finally see the Quenya cognate of the Sindarin adverb _mae,
sc. _mai_. That should make lots of Quenyists happy don't you think?

*Arthur


Utúlie'n Estel!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Salo states in his book that "the basic word order of a verbal
sentence" in Sindarin is "Verb - Subject (-Object) or VS(O)", the
appearance of an object depending on the verb, since only transitive
verbs require an object.

Now, having read his explanations (§ 17.21 ff.), I fail to take
the point.
Under "normal VS(O) sentences" (§ 17.22) and "sentences
with omitted subject pronouns" (§ 17.23) D. Salo subsumes  eleven
sentences with obviously imperative meaning (eg. _drego morn_,
_Daro_ etc.)
Five sentences contain verbs with pronominal endings, which replace
an explicit subject (eg. _ónen i-Estel Edain_).
Only three examples seem to be "normal" sentences with a noun as
subject: _tôl acharn_ , where it is argueable whether the verb is
emphasized, _...penna míriel o menel aglar elenath..._, which is
poetry, and _aníra i aran...suilannad mhellyn în..._.
(Note that the latter two sentences literally start with
an "extrasentential element" (D.S.), _silivren penna míriel..._
and _ar ennas aníra i aran...suilannad..._!)

Otherwise there seem to be seven examples "with subject
topicalization (SV[O])"(§ 17.24), (eg. _Celebrimbor ...teithant_).

Now I can't understand, why this word order is not considered to be
the "normal" one. In the grammar of every language known to me at
least the word order in imperative sentences would be treated
seperately.

I would appreciate to learn your thoughts!
Erna

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhath *" <sp12@h...> wrote:
> I apologize if this has been asked in the recent past.
>
> Can someone tell me if the (late?) sources have something
concerning the
> etymology of the (obviously lately quite dominant) personal
pronoun _se_?
> I'm working on a grammar bit article in Finnish and this would be
useful to
> know as thoroughly as possible (and right now I don't remember
squat...). ;]
>
> Also, what do you think would be the genitive of
_te_? "taio"? "tieo"?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Elhath


I would use *teva, treating the undeclined "adjectival" genitive as
an alternative to the one in -o (as Tolkien himself says in Quendi
and Eldar, the two are often not distinguished). Te is thus left
recognizable in a reasonably transparent formation.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's
FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "baphometboy1" <baphometboy1@y...>
wrote:

I don't think "ar" can take a suffixed pronoun, especially one
beginning with l (the combination -rl- is not found in attested
Quenya, as far as I know). The independent pronoun "elye" (here)
would be the most logical (and natural-sounding) choice.

"Mainen" in your example should be "manen." I don't understand lenna
eselye." To me it looks as if it means "to you (?) you." I would
say: "Manen nalye?"

As an alternative to your maara used as an adverb, "mande" = "well"
is found in the Qenya Lexicon.

I haven't seen any "authentic" examples of declined Quenya numbers,
but I suppose they could be. (At least I've done it.) In your number
examples, "cainenen mine" would mean "to/for ten one"
and "cainenello mine" = "from ten one." If you use these case
endings to mean "before one" and "after one" (based on what I'm not
sure) it should be cainen minen (or allative cainen minenna) and
cainen minello. If these are meant to be expressions in telling
time, a clearer, simpler way of saying it (to me) would be: cainen
epe mine = "ten before one" and cainen apa mine = "ten after one"
without having to use case endings.

>
>
> umm a small question this time, can a pronoun like "I" or "you" be
> suffix to the word "and"?
> i.e.
>    Meldon : Mainen lenna eselye?  (how are you?)
>    Tauro  : mára, arlye?          (Good and you?)
>
> or would and independent pronoun HAVE to be used
>
>    Tauro  : mára, ar elye?
>
> sorry if this is really obvious!
> also on  the subject on telling the time, could you use the dative
> and ablative case joined to numbers?
> i.e.
>   Cainenen mine  =  ten to one (cainen+filler vowel -e- +dative -n)
>   Cainenello mine = ten from(past) one (cainen +filler vowel -e-
>                                                  + abblative -llo)
>
> what do you think then??
> thanks in advance

That sounds very interesting. I'm not a quenya expert, but very interested in
it and I'm studing computer science.

Can you list the words you are interested to translate, and examples on how
they are used?

//Casse-Lelyaro

söndagen den 27 februari 2005 17.33 skrev trupill:
> I don't know if it fits very well on Tolkien's thoughts about Arda,
> but I'm trying to create a programming language based on Quenya. [...]

Hello,
i haven't written to you for a long time and this time i am writing
to you to show you something i made in 3ds max inspired by Tolkien's
great work.you can view it at:

http://www.3dlinks.com/gallery_fullview.cfm?id=13959

Thank you

Hi again,
I'm searching for a way to express the word "example". I've been trying to
find i the wordlists. I have also tried synonyms like; model, standard, proof
and evidence.

I've got the german expresion:
"Gebt mir ein Leitbild."

This sentence have I translated to:
"Give me an example."

When I'm still wrirting, I remember that I've looking for annother word;
riddle or enigma.

I haven't fond it in any wordlist, but as I see it, it must be related to the
word "question", so is it possible to coin it from "question" (_*maquetië_ of
the verb _maquet-_).
I realized that maybe I'm wrong, because _maquetië_ is gerund an that would
proberly be "a questing" in english, so what word form is a -tion word?
Maybe should "question" be _maquet- + -më_ instead. If this is right, how
would the coind word look like. I just coundn't find the the cluster as an
allowded nor a forbidden.

/Thanks in advance.
ChOken aka Cassa-Lelyaro