Thomas Ferencz wrote:

> I do not have VT44, so if all the answers are in there
> please feel to free to throw an RTFM at me any time.
> I was wondering about the verbs _apsen(e)-_,
> _díhena-_, _gohena-_. It would seem that Tolkien was
> attaching 3 entirely different prefixes to the same
> stem SEN- here, yet all yielding the meaning
> "forgive". I wonder what could be the core meaning of
> SEN-, that can produce "forgive" with prefixes
> "after-", "under-" and "co-", respectively? (If indeed
> these prefixes had those meanings in those periods).

The meaning of the root SEN-, given in VT43:18, is "let loose, free,
let go", from an etymological note on the verso of At. V.

According to this note, _apsen(e)-_ is from _ab(a)sene-_. Thought the
first element _ab(a)-_ is not explained, it looks like a prefixed
form of AB(A)- "refuse, deny" (and not _apa_ "after"), especially the
additional entry AB- "retreat, move back, refuse" given in the
Etymologies (cp. the equivalent Greek and Latin verbs used in this
line of the Lord's Prayer: _athiêmi_ "let go, send away" and
_dimitto_ "send away, send forth, let go").

As for the Sindarin prefixes _di-_ and _go-_, their meaning is not
given and VT's editors give several possible senses : _di-_ may mean
*"from beneath", *under" or *"away", and _go-_ may express
reciprocity (as in _gowest_ "treaty", sc. "reciprocal bond") or mean
*"together".

Sébastien Bertho

Atwe eque:

>Greetings,
>
>
>I do not have VT44, so if all the answers are in there
>please feel to free to throw an RTFM at me any time.
>I was wondering about the verbs _apsen(e)-_,
>_díhena-_, _gohena-_. It would seem that Tolkien was
>attaching 3 entirely different prefixes to the same
>stem SEN- here, yet all yielding the meaning
>"forgive". I wonder what could be the core meaning of
>SEN-, that can produce "forgive" with prefixes
>"after-", "under-" and "co-", respectively? (If indeed
>these prefixes had those meanings in those periods).

I don't have it either, but it seems like the same root that
yielded Q. _sen-_ "let loose, free, let go" (VT43:18). A
pretty fitting analogy with Finnish _päästää_, btw. ;jP


Btw, Thomas, if you could refresh my memory on st else...
namely, what was the primary source/quote governing the
practice of writing Quenya HR (in Tengwar) with Halla
followed by Rómen, vs. Arda in the Sindarin Modes? I
wrote a phonological post to a Finnish forum recently but
this had somehow totally left my mind.

Now I'm going to go look at the Sarati and wonder about
how it could be achieved there... ;-j


Elhath

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--- elhath * <sp12@...> wrote:


> Btw, Thomas, if you could refresh my memory on st
> else...
> namely, what was the primary source/quote governing
> the
> practice of writing Quenya HR (in Tengwar) with
> Halla
> followed by Rómen, vs. Arda in the Sindarin Modes? I
> wrote a phonological post to a Finnish forum
> recently but
> this had somehow totally left my mind.

Quote from Amanye Tenceli
(http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at):

"Another function of halla was to “be placed before a
consonant to indicate that it was unvoiced and
breathed; voiceless r and l were usually so expressed
and are transcribed hr, hl” [AppE]. This custom seems
to have survived in later ages (in words like hríve,
hlóce), although no samples are known. The sound hl
“was in the Third Age usually pronounced as l” [AppE],
but since Tolkien claims to have transcribed something
from his source texts as hl, something that was
usually expressed with the aid of halla, the sound
must still have been represented in writing. In this
respect, as in many other, the Eldar were probably
conservative. "


Shine on,

=====
Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --



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few days back i have been informed that making a "belonging" which
ends
with -n is obsolete and that it is better to use genitive.
i am rather new in sindarin, and all (and forgive me if this is
inappropriate for the group, i won't do it again) plus english isn't
my first
language, so it's hard to explain.
but, something like, it should be better said mellon nin (long i)
instead of mellonen and such.
could someone confirm that to me and give me the refferences where
these
things were proven?
thank you!

Hi,

   I saw that you kind if get annoyed when people ask for
translations but i've translated all that I could and I can't find
anymore help on it so if anyone could tell me if this is right it
would be great. [...] I used the quenya language.

Lelya kuila ida iest
Indonya hilde beor
Si weere ne tinta na
Enyore mme ana gwaedh
Leneme fifirula ento ari

this is supposed to mean:
Go and live you dreams
My heart will always follow
This promise I make to you
That we'll come closer to sealing
With each passing tomorrow

I'd be happy to help anyone in any way that I can.I just need this
to engrave on my boyfriends ring (he loves LOTR and elfish)
                                thanks whit

I am yet to find that quote about Halla from my Finnish
LotR, but thanks bunch.

Elhath


>From: Atwe <percival64@...>
>
>"Another function of halla was to ?be placed before a
>consonant to indicate that it was unvoiced and
>breathed; voiceless r and l were usually so expressed
>and are transcribed hr, hl? [AppE]. This custom seems
>to have survived in later ages (in words like hríve,
>hlóce), although no samples are known. The sound hl
>?was in the Third Age usually pronounced as l? [AppE],
>but since Tolkien claims to have transcribed something
>from his source texts as hl, something that was
>usually expressed with the aid of halla, the sound
>must still have been represented in writing. In this
>respect, as in many other, the Eldar were probably
>conservative. "

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--- andrannath <andrannath@...> wrote:

> few days back i have been informed that making a
> "belonging" which
> ends
> with -n is obsolete and that it is better to use
> genitive.
> i am rather new in sindarin, and all (and forgive me
> if this is
> inappropriate for the group, i won't do it again)
> plus english isn't
> my first
> language, so it's hard to explain.
> but, something like, it should be better said mellon
> nin (long i)
> instead of mellonen and such.
> could someone confirm that to me and give me the
> refferences where
> these
> things were proven?
> thank you!

I do not think the possessive pronominal ending -en is
in any way "obsolete". After all, we can observe it in
a genuine LotR-era sentence _Lasto beth lammen!_. It
was theoreticised on this list not too long ago that
the ending -en might have been in use for possessions
that cannot be disowned, such as body parts (cf.
_guren_) or abstract things like "language". This
might be seen as an "archaic" feature of the language
from the internal point of view, whereas the use of
possessive pronouns (nín, lín etc.) the "modern" way
of speaking, but by no means is either of them
"obsolete".

Shine on,

=====
Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --



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> I do not think the possessive pronominal ending -en is
> in any way "obsolete". After all, we can observe it in
> a genuine LotR-era sentence _Lasto beth lammen!_.

As argued by Carl Hostetter in VT41 and by myself in
message 30307 (and other places), the ending would
_not_ be _?-en_ but rather _*-n_. Hence imo the idea
of an ending _?-en_ 'my' is indeed obsolete and should be
abandoned.

* Thorsten

thank you! :)
maybe i have used the wrong word, really, i meant rather old or such.
that is surely it?!
cause i'm rather new in sindarin so i gotta check everything at least twice to
be sure!
thank you loads!!! :D

Atwe <percival64@...> wrote:

--- andrannath wrote:

> few days back i have been informed that making a
> "belonging" which ends
> with -n is obsolete and that it is better to use
> genitive.[...]

I do not think the possessive pronominal ending -en is
in any way "obsolete". After all, we can observe it in
a genuine LotR-era sentence _Lasto beth lammen!_. [...]

> I used the quenya language.
>
> Lelya kuila ida iest
> Indonya hilde beor
> Si weere ne tinta na
> Enyore mme ana gwaedh
> Leneme fifirula ento ari

Well... This is not Quenya, or at least, this is not ONLY Quenya :
_ida_, _iest_, _beor_, _gwaedh_ are Sindarin. You cannot mix
different languages in the same sentence (imagine someone speaking in
English but with 2 or 3 words of Spanish in each sentence). I don't
know your vocabulary sources, but you should go and search for a
better one (see below).

More, there are some problems of grammar in your attempt (for example
_-mme_ is an ending, not an independant pronoun). One cannot simply
make sentences by putting words one by one, following the English
word order. There are rules in languages, grammar and syntax, that
need to be respected or else you cannot be understood. You should try
to read a good Quenya course or articles about the grammar of this
language before trying to translate anything. Go to the FAQ of the
list (http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html) : you'll find here a
bunch of useful ressources.

Good luck (and courage !)

Sébastien Bertho

--- Thorsten Renk <trenk@...> wrote:

>
> > I do not think the possessive pronominal ending
> -en is
> > in any way "obsolete". After all, we can observe
> it in
> > a genuine LotR-era sentence _Lasto beth lammen!_.
>
> As argued by Carl Hostetter in VT41 and by myself in
> message 30307 (and other places), the ending would
> _not_ be _?-en_ but rather _*-n_. Hence imo the idea
> of an ending _?-en_ 'my' is indeed obsolete and
> should be
> abandoned.
>
> * Thorsten

I understand you, Thorsten, but what I meant is that
the ending (that is, the existence of a possessive
ending) is in no way less valid as the use of a
possessive pronoun.

=====
Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --



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I understood it (without the translation).  A couple of comments, though:

hín should be hîn
You may want the conjunction (and) between "rhaw" and "agar"- that could be
"ar" or "ah" depending on your school of thought.


-----Original Message-----
From: jpauptit [mailto:jan.willem.pauptit@...]
[...]
hín nín , ioannath nín, rhaw agar nín
laitano a sarnatauron
[...]

> I understand you, Thorsten, but what I meant is that
> the ending (that is, the existence of a possessive
> ending) is in no way less valid as the use of a
> possessive pronoun.

I know what you meant :-) - but others may not - so I wanted to
write this very clear. The existence of an ending _-?en_ is regarded as
a wide-spread "fact"  and it is conveniently forgotten that there's little
to indicate that the ending would really be _-?en_ rather than _-*n_
and that in the majority of cases possessive adjectives are used.

So, I think it is _far safer_ to use possessive adjectives in Neo
Sindarin compositions than the ending (which would produce
very complex forms restoring OS vowels if it really turns out to
be _-*n_).

The possessive ending is apparently valid, but fact is, it occurs
in 2 cases in Sindarin, compared with 11 examples of possessive
adjectives. You take your pick what is the usual expression.

* Thorsten

I am translating the following sentence (probably well-known to you):
"There is many a thing in the West-regions unknown to men..." (V:44)

Now I am doubtful about the translation of "there is" and "unknown"
respectively.

I am aware that I have been reading something concerning "there
is/there are" before, but I don't remember where.

My attempt:

_Naid rim ennas min dún-airdh (airdh annui?)*)
"things numerous (are) there in the West-regions (regions western ?)

o in (o hin ?) edain ú-istar..._ **)
about which men don't have knowledge..."

*) cf _i Mbair Annui_ (King's Letter), though I don't understand
why this is not _Ennui_. (?)

**) As _isto_ 'to have knowledge' is intransitive (VT 45:19) the
passive participle/past participle does not seem appropriate. But I
am uncertain whether such a relative clause might be possible.

Any comment is welcome.

(Though the rest of the sentence is not without difficulties as well,
these seem to be rather a matter of vocabulary, so I don't want to
overtax your patience.)

Greetings
Erna

Erna wrote:

>_Naid rim ennas min dún-airdh (airdh annui?)*)
>"things numerous (are) there in the West-regions (regions western ?)

Wouldn't the plural pattern _(C)arth > (C)erth_ apply to the singular
form (C)aCdh/(C)ardh also..? Or do I remember wrong...

>o in (o hin ?) edain ú-istar..._ **)
>about which men don't have knowledge..."

Using simply something like *?_iail_ might seem like an easy solution,
but I'm not at all sure if that would be the correct one. Perhaps the
complex relative clause in Sindarin is more like that of Welsh or Semitic,
i.e. with an often-if-not-always indeclinable relative particle and a
following clause in "normal syntax" + with a separate pronominal
element (cf. Syriac _m'ðîttâ ð'-selqeth mennâh_ "the city from which
I left", where the words are "the city, which - I-went-out, from+it").
But we don't know. Or are there any hints?

>*) cf _i Mbair Annui_ (King's Letter), though I don't understand
>why this is not _Ennui_. (?)

I never remember this either. :p

>**) As _isto_ 'to have knowledge' is intransitive (VT 45:19) the
>passive participle/past participle does not seem appropriate. But I
>am uncertain whether such a relative clause might be possible.

Well... I'm currently looking for an attested late past participle of
an A-stem verb that would support Helge and David's theory before
_neithan, eglan_ (Ardalambion's sindarin.htm doesn't seem to
mention the source material in the verb section, and it's been a
long time since I might have read the arguments); but one could
presumably also avert this problem (and the topic-with-relative issue)
by using a word like *_úvuin_ "odd, strange" (or *_alchennen_
"unheeded"?).


Opinions, yes.


Elhath

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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhath *" <sp12@h...> wrote:


> Wouldn't the plural pattern _(C)arth > (C)erth_ apply to the
singular
> form (C)aCdh/(C)ardh also..? Or do I remember wrong...


I have considered the plural of _ardh_ > _*erdh_ or _*eirdh_.

In fact there was a discussion on the subject of plurals with _a_ in
the last syllable on sindarin.de in August (_alph - eilph_, _narn -
nern_ etc.). The webmaster wrote in answer to my question that
eventually he would tend to _airdh_.


Many thanks for your thorough comment and most useful advice!
*Erna

>> "There is many a thing in the West-regions unknown to men..." <<

How do you find this?

"Nadath ne Mbair Annui ú-istennin na edain..."


----------
Eruthalion

I tried looking this up on the page about "The Noble Tongue" at
Ardalambion and just ended up confusing myself.  In a Sindarin
compound, would an R next to a T turn the T into a D?  For instance,
would _ethir_ + _taur_ produce a landform name Ethir Daur "vast
estuary?"

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "promenadeofthedeer"
<riverbeauty@h...> wrote:
> I tried looking this up on the page about "The Noble Tongue" at
> Ardalambion and just ended up confusing myself.  In a Sindarin
> compound, would an R next to a T turn the T into a D?  For instance,
> would _ethir_ + _taur_ produce a landform name Ethir Daur "vast
> estuary?"

You ask an interesting question and one which I don't think there is
really an answer to.  In the case you present I would image we would
see lenition as this seems to be grammatical in nature.

If, however, this was word internal we could have t > th.

Aaron Shaw

PARMA ELDALAMBERON 15

  SÍ QENTE FEANOR
  and Other Elvish Writings
  by J. R. R. TOLKIEN
  -------------------------

  The current issue is a collection
  of early writings by J. R. R. Tolkien
  concerning his invented languages
  and scripts, edited and annotated
  by Arden R. Smith, Christopher Gilson,
  Patrick H. Wynne and Bill Welden,
  under the guidance of Christopher
  Tolkien and with the permission of
  the Tolkien Estate.

  http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma15.html

  "SÍ QENTE FEANOR" is a prose excerpt written in Qenya.  
  It was composed by Tolkien in the same notebook that
  contains the tale called "The Nauglafring" and the Gnomish
  Grammar.  Other writings from the Lost Tales period
  presented in this issue include a list of Qenya and Gnomish
  "NAMES AND REQUIRED ALTERATIONS" connected with
  "The Cottage of Lost Play"; two charts laying out
  the sound system of Gnomish; and various early notes
  on Elvish words and names not found anywhere else. 
  Also presented here is the full text of the
  "NAME-LIST TO THE FALL OF GONDOLIN," excerpts from which
  were published in "The Book of Lost Tales, Part Two."
  Editorial commentary is provided on the connections
  of these texts with the contemporary tales and lexicons.

  "EARLY RUNIC DOCUMENTS" is an edition of Tolkien's charts
  and notes from about 1918 to 1925 dealing with runes
  and various rune-like alphabets.  Tolkien's examples
  of the scripts are reproduced in fascimile — charts
  of the sounds represented by the letters, and Elvish words
  and English texts written in the scripts.  These include
  English and Gothic runes; Gondolinic runes; and two
  invented scripts, one called simply "Runic" and the other
  called "Gnomic Letters".  Transcriptions of the examples,
  and commentary on the dating and historical background
  are provided.  Also published in this issue is an
  "ADDENDUM TO THE ALPHABET OF RÚMIL AND THE VALMARIC SCRIPT." 
  This is a document recently encountered among Tolkien's
  papers which includes texts written in both of these
  early invented scripts.

  Tables of "EARLY QENYA PRONOUNS" provide a glimpse
  of the transition in the conception of the language
  between the Lost Tales period and the "Early Qenya
  Grammar" that Tolkien composed while at Leeds. 
  And closely connected with the grammar we also
  present the beginnings of an "ENGLISH-QENYA DICTIONARY"
  which Tolkien started to compile at this time. A remarkable
  feature of this dictionary is that most of the Qenya words
  in it are transcribed into the Valmaric script, providing
  one of the more elaborate examples of Tolkien's own
  representation of an Elvish language using an Elvish
  writing system.  From about the same period a partial
  "INDEX OF NAMES" for "The Lay of the Children of Húrin"
  is also presented in this issue.  Detailed annotations
  and commentary on the conceptual developments in these
  texts are included.

  Cover designs and illustration by Adam Victor Christensen.

  Parma Eldalamberon Issue Number 15 is a 122-page journal.
  Copies are available now.

  Cost: $25.00 per copy including postage and handling world-wide.

  Electronic payment by PayPal is available at the following link:

  http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma15.html

  Or send check or money-order (U.S. funds only) to:

  Christopher Gilson
  10646-A Rosewood Road
  Cupertino, CA 95014
  U.S.A.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "eruthalion" <obi-wan@f...> wrote:

> How do you find this?
>
> "Nadath ne Mbair Annui ú-istennin na edain..."

To my knowledge _ned_ would rather express a temporal relationship.
(cf _ned Echuir_)

_ú-istennin_ : As mentioned in my previous post, I thought that an
intransitive verb would not form such a past/passive participle.

(But it may well be that I'm wrong.)

*Erna

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "promenadeofthedeer"
<riverbeauty@h...> wrote:
> I tried looking this up on the page about "The Noble Tongue" at
> Ardalambion and just ended up confusing myself.  In a Sindarin
> compound, would an R next to a T turn the T into a D?  For
instance,
> would _ethir_ + _taur_ produce a landform name Ethir Daur "vast
> estuary?"

For all I know the adjective is lenited following the noun it
describes, apart from the final character of the noun.


----------
Eruthalion

--- aelindis <aon.912734440@...> wrote:


>
> _ú-istennin_ : As mentioned in my previous post, I
> thought that an
> intransitive verb would not form such a past/passive
> participle.
>
> (But it may well be that I'm wrong.)
>
> *Erna

_ista-_ is truly marked as intransitive in Etym, but
it is my view that later Tolkien changed his mind and
treated ista- as a transitive verb, cf. its use as a
modal verb in Quenya: _istan quete_ "I know how to
speak" (VT41)

Shine on,

=====
Thomas Ferencz

  -- love is the shadow that ripens the wine --

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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Navaer Lalaith"
<elvenswordsmith@y...>
wrote:http://www.freewebs.com/dreamingfifi/THE%20REAL%20ELVISH%
20PHRASE%20BOOK.htm

Because of bandwidth problems, I've moved it here:
http://realelvish.tripod.com/sindarin_phrase_book/

Greetings all,

Bertrand Bellet has updated two of his articles on I-Lam Arth!

Imparisyllabic Nouns - small typographic corrections
Noldorin Plurals in the Etymologies - Updated to include recently
published material.

These are both very interesting articles and are highly recommended!
Enjoy!

Aaron Shaw

Hi!
This is my attempt of trying to translate Linkin Park's "From the Inside" to
Sindarin. Is it bad? Am I a newbie. Hell, yeah! Someone, help me please? I would
really appretiate this because I kind of need this till the next week. THANK
YOU!! :)
Text is, of course, altered A LOT, for I really don't know how else to do it.

The lyrics are in italics. The translation is, verse by verse, under it. The
stuff that repeats is in grey.

From the inside
Nedh ‘ûr nín. (In my heart)

Don't know who to trust.
Vellyn (mhellyn?) nín ú-iston. (My friends I don’t know)

No surprise.
Sen nin ú-wain. (It [is] not new to me)

Everyone feel so far away from me.
Mellyn nín pain mi chaered. (My friends all [are] in the distance)

Heavy thoughts shift through dust.
Ind nín nyrn erin lith padar. (My inner voices on the ash walk)

And the lies.
Ah i-phith delu. (And the words fallen)

Trying not to break.
Maethon deri. (I fight to remain)

But I’m so tired of this deceit.
Estel nin awarthant. (Hope abandoned me)

Every time I try to make myself get back up on my feet.
Lû rem (rhem?; threm?-lenition) iest nín derin pado. (Numerous times wish mine
[is] I remain to walk)

All I ever think about is this.
Ind nín na (nedh?) ti (di?) (My thoughts [are] with/in(?) them)

All the tiring time between.
Pen îdh anann. (Without rest for a long time)

Trying to put my trust in you.
Iest nín anno estel nín(?) (My wish [is] to give you (my?) trust)

Just takes so much out of me.
Naegra tharthaeg, nae (It pains beyond limits, sadly) – OK, this one was WAY too
hard, and theoretical. Rather embarrassing, I must say. :P

I take everything from the inside.
Leithian ind thurin nedh ‘ûr nín. (I release thoughts hidden in my heart)

And throw it all away.
A (ti/sain?) le annon. (And (them) to you I give.) – bear with me, please!

‘Cause I swear.
Gweston. (I swear)

For the last time.
Na vedui, i-vethed toll (toll?). (At last, the end came)

I won’t trust myself with you.
Estel nín le ú-annathon. (Trust mine to you I will not give)

Tension is building inside.
Im dem, im annem. (I [am] sad, I [am] sadder)

Steadily.
Demwain. (Saddest) – That’s the only thing that occurred to me here.

Everyone feel so far away from me.
Mellyn nín pain mi chaered. (My friends all [are] in the distance)

Heavy thoughts forcing their way.
Ind nín nyrn trî nin thiar. (My inner voices through me appear)

Out of me.
Thiar trî nin. (Appear through me)

I won’t trust myself with you.
Estel nín le ú-annathon. (Trust mine to you I will not give)

I won’t waste myself on you.
Lû nín le ú-annathon. (Time mine to you I will not give)

Waste myself on you.
Lû le ú-annathon. (Time to you I will not give)

You.
Le. ((To) you) – PLEASE, tell me I didn’t get this one wrong also! :P



Andrannath Mírdaneg
Owner of Erestor's hunting knives, Keeper of Lindir's harp, Wielder of Elladan
and Elrohir's *cough* hidden *cough* weapons and their love, Official Guardian
of Enismirdal's smile and Gwyllion's pastels.

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Navaer Lalaith" <elvenswordsmith@y...> wrote:

> Because of bandwidth problems, I've moved it here:
> http://realelvish.tripod.com/sindarin_phrase_book/

Read on the top page:

"Since the Grey Company Elven Phrase Book does not contain Elvish, I
have translated it into Elvish for fan fiction and role play
writers'
convenience. I have taken out all of the plain ridiculous phrases and
all of the non-canon junk. Enjoy! -- The REAL Sindarin Phrase Book"

That's really funny... I mean, how can this list claim to be a "REAL"
Sindarin phrase book, and pretend to be less ridiculous that the Grey
Company Elven Phrase Book, while most of it IS all non-canonical junk
by itself? It's not even neo-Elvish here, and often looks as
re-invention rather than reconstruction.

I have nothing against role-play, I have even been a RPG'er in my
youth. But I wouldn't claim that the pseudo-Elvish we might have used
back then for the purpose of a game is anything real or canonical.

Didier.

--- promenadeofthedeer <riverbeauty@...> wrote:

> I tried looking this up on the page about "The Noble Tongue" at
> Ardalambion and just ended up confusing myself.  In a Sindarin
> compound, would an R next to a T turn the T into a D?  For instance,
> would _ethir_ + _taur_ produce a landform name Ethir Daur "vast
> estuary?"

Usually, but not always, compound words in which the first element ends in
a liquid (r or l) causes liquid mutation. Don't have my mutation chart
with me so I can't tell you offhand what T mutates to if a liquid
mutation.

On the other hand, _ethir taur_ isn't really a compound word, since a
compound word is a single word comprising of two (or more) separate words
put together. In this case _taur_ is simply an adjective following the
noun it is modifying, so it would undergo lenition rather than liquid
mutation, thus _Ethir Daur_ would be correct.

Arthur

=====
Utúlie'n Estel!



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Uruviel Annárë
Arwen of Nargothrond
How can speak?
Thanks

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Didier" <didier.willis@f...> wrote:
> That's really funny... I mean, how can this list claim to be
a "REAL"
> Sindarin phrase book, and pretend to be less ridiculous that the
Grey
> Company Elven Phrase Book, while most of it IS all non-canonical
junk
> by itself? It's not even neo-Elvish here, and often looks as
> re-invention rather than reconstruction.

At least Role Play and fan fiction can then be a tiny bit more
canonlogical then it is. There's not very much we can do about the
rest.