"As for "Japan", I believe I once used the native term _Nippon_ in a Neo-Quenya
text of mine. It fits within Quenya phonological restraints, at least.

Or you can use the meaning of the word, Nippon: "Land of the Rising Sun".
("Japan" is the Indonesian word for the same -- I presume it was from them that
European explorers first learned of the country.)

Not sure which version in Quenya would be corrct... Does anyone else
know? My personal preference is the first one...

_Ambaronórë_
  _Ambarondor_
)Dor-Ambarónë_
_Dor-Ambaronëo_ (Or is _Dor_ strictly a Sindarin word??)"

You might find the discussion here of interest: 
http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=8&threadid=57\
766#1

I also once suggested that New Zealand be referred to by a translation of the
Maori Aotearoa 'long white cloud'.

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Greetings,

my question is simple, please don't laugh at me:
why does not f lenit to v?

Shine on,

=====
Thomas Ferencz

"Manuel!!!
Que?
I'm so sorry, he's from Barcelona."

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"Some friends and I, amateur linguists from Norway interested in Tolkien's
constructed languages, wish to pay a visit to the UK to enter the Bodleian
library where we find the material of Tolkien's languages.

Our question is: What do we need to do to enter there? What are the
requirements? We are aware that we cannot publish any of what we find there. But
if they do allow us to go there, can we copy some of what we find for our
private use?

Do you have any tips to Bodleian visitors?"

Check out the Library's web-site for the answers to at least some of your
enquiries: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/

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Tencë Petri Tikka

>Aiya!
>
>What would the plural instrumental of Quenya words ending in _-ie_
>be? The plural instrumental of words ending in _-a_ is _-inen_
>(_cirya_ 'ship' > _ciryainen_, VT6:14), but with words ending in _-
>e_ it's _-ínen_ - _-e_ (_lasse_ 'leaf' > _lassínen_). So robotically
>using that pattern, it would be *_-iínen_. But at least at some
>stage of Quenya, _ii_ (two vowels in hiatus) was simplified to _i_
>(cf. *_a-wániié_ > _avánie_, WJ:366). That would probably make *_-
>iínen_ *_-ínen_. Would this then be the most probable correct form?
>Any ideas?

I myself have used that derivation, yes. One could imagine a dissimilation
taking place, but what would it be? _eí_ would plausibly also yield _í_ and
something else is unlikely... I see no other way out thant using _ínen_
since _iínen_ looks positively horrendous. I am generally not very happy
with a form like _eldalínen_ 'by the Elven people' but see no other way of
doing it readily available...

-Eddin Najetovic

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>Quí autuvan larcave
>
>Quí autuvan larcave.
>Ve lamano lemba mí taure.

Why _lamano_ and not _lamno_? Metric reasons?

>Antien sí ilya oar,

Why is _oar_ a seperate preposition, why is it not attached to the verb
(_avantien_) as in _termar-_ _aukiri_ etc.?

>i mauya nin onotie.

Perhaps _onotie_ should be in dative... would look slightly odd though.

>
>Tuiala hinwa-hroanya

Tuiala should perhaps be _tuyala_ or even _túyala_ (from TUY I presume)?
_hinwa_ to be compared with _hanwa_ = male?

>mi ercala uswe parcatien.

Is the elision of the augment intentional?

>Limbe alapare indonya,

I think _úpar-_ would be better, since _ú_ can have evil connotations, which
you would definitely want with a loaded verb like this. Then again, _ala_
may sound more clinical... but what do I know, I'm no Elf :)

>íre intyan manna utúlien.

As this is a relative sentence, it should be _yanna_ (whither I've got), not
_manna_

>Tyelcave nance ni i maile,

Word order is being very free, I like it :)

>ya mistane ettenórenna.
>Sí ni vaia néca nannainie:
>tatya cainen loar pollien larta.

Using the ill-attested subjunctive and _tatya_ for 'yet'? Could you explain
that?

>Avaquenten illume hanya
>amilwa quettaron hande.
>San ahyanen nostalóra, yóntima

yóntima? Shouldn't that be _yontima_?

>ar lálanen ngolmonyanna.

I'm sure you mean _ñolmonyanna_ here.

>
>Nessenya, i laiqua ráva sina
>mírima ar oira namnenye.
>ar sí nírinen lastan

Probably _hlasta_ (also cf. _hlar_ and Sindarin _lhaw_ among other)... how
long must my crusade for _hl_ in these words continue

>i parce olwaron esce.

Odd word... ó before cluster?

-Eddin Najetovic

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Teithant Thomas Ferencs:
>my question is simple, please don't laugh at me: why
>does not f lenit to v?

JRRT followed Welsh lenition closely, and 'ff' [f] does not lenite to
'f' [v] in Welsh. Similarly, note that 'th' doesn't lenite to 'dh'.

Cuio mae, Danny.

William Womack wrote:
>
> And I'd be interested to compare your version of Quenya place names (if any)
with mine. I'm not too happy with "Hicaaco" ("Chicago") or "S/T/Cina, "China."
(None of the last three sound right.)
>

Well, couln't you instead of starting from China start from 'middle
kingdom' or 'middle country' (from 'zhuong Guo')? Similar for Japan
would be 'land of teh rising sun'. Wouldn't names constructed inthis way
be more true to how elves went about naming Middle-Earthly locales and
people?

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Cherie Campbell"
<tartelperien3319@h...> wrote:
> ------------------------------
>
> Only the second one, _Taarilos_, could work as an uninflected word,
since
> LotR-style Quenya very rarely has consonant clusters at the end of a
word.
> However, you could use _Taarilost-_ as the stem of _Taarilos_, since
added
> inflections would keep the consonant cluster problem from occurring. In
> fact, I recommend that you do so: many Quenya words ending in -s
have stems
> in -st.
>
> Earrama
>
Thank you!

And another question: How would I make "Tolkien" an adjectival word
(as in Tolkien Society)  _Tolkienë_ ? And if it's modifying _Nossë_
would it change in any way? Thanks again...

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Petri Tikka" <pstikka@h...> wrote:
> Aiya!
>
> Today we celebrate Kalevala-day, Finnish culture day here in Finland.
> To honour this, I would like to present to you a few lines translated
> to Quenya from the beginning of "The Kalevala" (improved over my
> previous translations). I use iambic hexameter per two finnish
> pentametric lines, because Quenya has less syllables than Finnish and
> Tolkien has employed this metre in _Namárie_. Here follows first the
> translation, then the original and last a word-by-word translation.
> Enjoy!

Valin Kalevalarë! (belated, I know). And thanks for the Quenya
translation -- I've just picked up a copy of the Kalevala (in English,
natch) and will definitly use your translation to improve my Quenya
skills.

-- David

Vinyar Aldeo i Attea  Suulimeva 2004

(Corrections, comments , etc. for previous day's headlines at end of post)

* = hypothetical word. QW = Quenya Wordlist. QA = Quenya affixes (both
Ardalambion). QL = Qenya Lexicon. E = Etymologies. PPQ = Parma Penyane Quettaron

1. *HAITIVA *AMORTARI TUUVINE YELLOINEN MI *UUQUILDA *TUUROSTO; MARDOR (var
LAULEMOR) RUCIR SA SERCE VORO CELUVA APA *SONDAMO *ETEHORTAINA; *ARISTIIRO PANYA
CAAMA *ERTAINE ARDANNAR ("Haiti's rebels cheered ("received with shouts of joy")
in tense ("unquiet, restless") capital; residents fear more bloodshed ("fear
that blood will continually flow") after president ousted ("sent flying out");
Aristide blames ("fixes guilt") on U.S.")
*uuquilda < uu-, "not, un (QA)" + quilda (QL), "quiet"; *tuurosto,
"chief/master/power city;" cf. Tuurosto (QW); mardor,"dwellers," laulemor,
"inhabitants" (QL); et(e)- "out" (E, QA) + horta(ina) (E) "send flying, speed,
urge")

2. *YESTUURECILMI POLLER METTA *ERUWARDO*TUURESACALE SIIRA (*ANALTALDEASSE) VE
*KERRION VORO *TELCONTA ("Primary elections could end Edwards' campaign
("power-seeking") today ((on) Super ("Most-great") Tuesday) as Kerry forges
ahead ("strides ever on")
*yestuurcilmi, "primary elections" < yesta, "first" (E) + *tuuricilmi
(simplified compound), + elections" ("power/master(s)-choices;" *telconta,
"strides," cf. Telcontar, "Strider" (LotR V. III, "The Houses of Healing")

3. *NAAROOTAMOR *NEHTAR *ARAFAATO *NAVIENDUR MI *NGASA OSTO ("Gunmen slay Arafat
adviser in Gaza City")
*naarootamo(r), simplified compound <  naar(e) "fire, flame" (QA/E) + roota,
"tube" (QL) + -mo, "man" (QA); +  *naviendur, "judging-servant," advisor

4. *ATTARASTAR *CANTALUXAR *OVESTURIE *NOORETIRNOR MENTAINE NUHTIEN *TUNDOPILWI
*MEXICENYE (OND)ILMIE *ENTEREVARELLOR  ("600  federal police sent to stop fuel
thefts from Mexican oil refineries")
*nooretirno, "nation-guard;" tundopilwe < tundo (QL) "fuel" + pilwe (QL)
"theft," + *ilmie, pl. of adj. *ilmea < ilma (QL) "oil" (/*ondilma "rock oil,
petroleum") ; enterevare(llor), "refinery," < en- "re-" (QA) + *tereva, v.
"refine" (here used as verbal noun) < tereva (E) "fine, acute" + -re,
"collection of things in QA; I (N.B *NOT*  Fauskanger) allow for a looser
locative meaning, as if for fanya-re, "collection of clouds," rather (or also)
"place where there are clouds, the upper air, the skies;" hence here, "place of
refining, refiner-y")

5. *AMBACOA *MEXICENYA *AXANCARO *LUXIMAVE AUTA TUURELLO ("Mexican senator
("Up(per)-house Mexican lawmaker") takes leave of absence ("temporarily departs
from power")")
"luximave, adv. < luxima (QL), "temporary"

6. *ULCARUMINTIE *IMBENOOREA ANTA QUENTALE *NAITYALERON ATANYA FAILEVA
LIVIEN(D)ESSE ("Amnesty International details ("gives account of") human-rights
violations ("abuses of human justice/fair(minded)ness") in Libya")
*Ulcarumintie,"amnesty," lit. "misdeeds non-rememering," simplified compound of
ulcar(ma) QL "misdeed" (or ulcar- "do wrong") + u- "un-" (QA) + *mintie,
"remembering" < minty(a?) (QL) "remind," hence "remember" (impers.), cf. QL
minti, "memory"; *naityale, "abuse," naitya- (QL), "harm, abuse" + -le, abstract
ending (QA); *faile, "justice" < faila (QW), "fair-minded, generous, just") +
abstract -e (QA)

7. *FIRENTYE AR *HWISSIE *ELENGOLMOR (MENDELDILI) QUETIR SA IHIIRIENTE
*ANNAIRA *ELIMBIE OIO TIIRINA ("French and Swiss astronomers say they have
detected farthest galaxy ever observed")
*elen(g)olmor, "star-loremaster, astronomer" <elen, "star" (QW,E,QL) +
ngolmo(r), (QW, E), "wise, learned man;" *annaira, "most far" < an-, "most" (QA)
+ haira, "far" (QW), with assimilation (cf. mir-roanwi (QW), "incarnates," < mi-
+ hroa- etc.); *elimbie, "galaxy" < *ilimbie, lit. "milkiness" (as "galaxy" <
Greek gala(kt-), "milk") <*ilimea, "milky" < ilin (QL, stem ilimb-), "milk;"
with il- > -el- by association with el(en), "star" and -ie (QA), as if
"collection of stars;" cf. *elessie, "constellation," < elen, formed after
olassie, (QW),  "collection of leaves, foliage")

8. *RUSSIENYE *MAXIMIER QUETIR SA OTSO *NOOREMORINTARON *ETELEHTAINE *ERTAINE
ARDALLOINEN *QUANTANAMO *OHTURESSEA *MANDALLO NAR *CAAMIE ULCAMARON ("Russian
authorities say that eight of their citizens ("countrymen") released by U.S.
from Guantanamo military prison are guilty of crimes")
*maximie, "authority," < maxima (QL) "powerful, having authority" + abstract
suffix -ie (QA); noremo, < noore, "country" + -mo (QA); *ohturessea adj. <
*ohturesse < "ohturesse, "collective war power, armed forces, military"(n.);
*manda, "prison" < Anga-manda (E), "Iron-prison" = "Noldorin" (Sindarin) Angband

9. *ERETAINE NOORI QUETIR SA *HWATEMALEA *TUURINDURI LA ANANTIER QUENTALE OR
*NEERTERASTA *MENCION  *NOREMORON VANWE MI NELDERASTAR CORANAARI *MINOOREA OHTO
("United Nations say that Guatemala officials have failed to resolve the deaths
and disappearances of over 200,000 citizens in 36 years of civil war = "have not
given an account of over....lost in...'")
*minoorea, adj. '"in-country," i.e. "internal, domestic" (war)

10. *AIKUPTIENYE *OSTOTIRNOR MITTAR MIR OPELE MAUSTANEN, LERYALA *CANTARRASTA
LUXA MAAPINE QUAMPOINEN/VAHTALEARINEN *LORTAMARON AR *MAHTILION ("Egyptian
police storm town ("enter into town by force"), freeing 160 hostages ("taken,
seized") of ('by") drug and and weapons dealers"
*ostotirnor," city-watchers/guards" < osto (E) "city" + tirno < halatirno,
"fish-watcher" (E); q(u)ampo QL) "pedlar", vahtalear (QL) "merchant" (QL);
*lortama, "drug" < *lorta-, "put to sleep" < lor- "sleep" (QL, E) + causative
-ta (QA) + -ma (QA) (but this suffix, even if applicable to something like a
drug, is not attested after verbs in -ta-); *mahtil, "weapon," <mahta (E)
"fight" + -il, used of tools (QA), hence "fighting tool" (E macil, "weapon" also
means "sword"); same caution as for lortama above

11. *VELCIENYA NER YO VESSERYA AR ATTA TE PELLA LELYAR *AXANTOCIENNA *MAPALEN AR
*NAITYALEN AR *NEHTALEN VENDILION (partiitive plural)/ *RIMBAVIE VENDION
(""Belgian man, his wife and two others ("two beyond them") go on trial for
kidnapping, abusing and killing several young girls")
*axantocie, "law-trying" < axan (QW) + tocie < toco- "try, test,"etc.(QL);
*rimbavie, pl. of *rimbavea < rimba, "numerous" (E) + -vea, "like" (QA), hence
"numerous-like, somewhat numerous, several")

  12. HROAR VANWA NOSSEO HIIRINE MI *MISSISSIPPI; RENDO ESTAINA VE *ULCARO
("Bodies of missing family found in Mississsippi; relative charged ("named as
evildoer")")

13. NOOREA VILYACIRYAMEA AR LARMEA *TURISSE *TERCANUVA VALDIE/*TANCOLIME HIRIER
*CARNILYA *RANYARO (" National Aeronautics and Space Administration to announce
significant findings of Mars Rover") *turesse, "collective body of control,
power, etc., administration;" valdea (QL) "important, of moment'; *tancolima,
"signficant" *tancol-, (v.) "signify' < Tancol, "Signifier" (QA) (presumably <
tanna, "sign" (QW) + col- (QW) , "bear," hence "bear signs, mean something, be
significant' (Latin significo, "make a sign") + -ima (QA) -"tending to, liable
to" (QA)

14. *VUHYO CANE *ANALTA TIRISSE OR *IMBENATSEA MANCALE *ENVINYATAMARON (("Bush
calls for crackdown ("very great watch over") Internet sale ("commerce,
trading") of drugs")

15. *CALIFORNIENYE *ANTAARE NAAMOR *SANYAR SA *ILUVAIREOTORNEA *AMALDANTEA HOSSE
NAA NAUTA ANTIEN AUTE *NOSTATURIEN MOOTARYAIN ("California Supreme Court
("highest judges") rules ("decides") that Roman Catholic
("All/World-holy-association," adj.) charity ("kind-giving band")  must ("is
obliged to")
offer birth-control coverage to its employees ("give money for birth-control to
its workers")
*antaara, "most high"; *mootaryain for *mootariryain; for the syncope, see
Fauskanger's Quenya grammar on possessive suffixes; the meaning here, I believe,
remains clear)

16. SUUQUINA LUNTE ORTAINA ET MISSISSIPPI (this is so much shorter in tengwar!)
SIIRELLO ("Sunken boat raised from Mississippi River")

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
---------------------------------------------


TEERAPANIER ISILYO CASTEARON ("Corrections of Tuesday's headlines"):

For those that noticed, "yesterday' (March 1) was not "Yestare" by Middle-Earth
time reckoning; it's at the end of next month.

11. mancar (corrected from E macar) < MBAKH, not MBAK-

"tulca, "establish" is in the QL (as tulka; for all spellings here with -c, ht,
and qu, check there under -k, -kt, -q-); forget the asterisk

13. teamalle: QL 90R "High Street, highway. main road"

15.*Formenyalie, "Norfolk," better *Formellien < Formen + lie + -ien, so also
"Hyarmellien, "Suffolk;" Wessex "Nuumessixe?)


.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> By the way, Canada is masculine, in french. We say
> 'Le Canada'. In english,
> 'The Canada' is just neutral. I can't explain it,
> and I don't think that any
> couldn't. We say 'La Chine', 'Le Japon', 'La
> France'...'L'Angleterre'...this
> can be very tricky!

Hey! Last time I checked, there is in fact a rule in
French, for the masculine/feminine for Countries:  All
countries that end in -e are feminine, and the others
are masculine (or course, there are exceptions, like
"le mexique")  I know this is totally off-topic, but I
hope it helps...somehow... :p

Namaarie!

Eruanne

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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, David Domínguez <davdomlan@a...>
wrote:
> A group of friends and I have been trying to deduce the lirics of
> the Lothlorien song of the FOTR Soundtrack [...]

HY
I'm interested from where did you reconstruct these lyrics?
Is this your translation or is it D.Salo's work?
I'm interested because I couldn't find anywhere this particular poem
translated into elvish so I thought it wasn't published...

Thanks for replying! I'll tell you about my word choice now.

-----------------
>From: William Womack <quildarener@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [elfling] A simple translation...
>Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:58:27 -0800 (PST)

>Did you get vore from Etymologies voro (and derivatives?) I don't recognize
>it. (Qenya Lexicon voore means "fur." but it's an early source.) How about
>(ter)mare, "abide" from Elendil's words on arriving in Middle-Earth?

--------------------
"Vore" is from the PPQ, It's the infinitive form of "vor-" a verb "to
survive, endure" that was plausibly constructed from the derivatives of the
root VORO. I wanted to use it because it has the sense "to last, endure",
rather than simply "to stay". This was important to me because the whole
message of the poem is about the fleetingness of youth and innocence--i. e.,
it doesn't endure.

>Nature is a hard word to translate in most its English senses; I'm still
>struggling with it; maybe some periphrasis like "the season" or "the
>woodland?" But I guess Ea would also work. Why not laica/laiqua for "green?
>It would alliterate with laure, like "green" and"gold."

------------------
"Laica" is an adjective, while the word "green" is used as a noun in this
part of the poem. I could use "laiquasse" meaning, "greenness, freshness"
but ween has the same meaning with fewer syllables. In your other reply, you
said I could get rid of "naa" in this line, which I think I will, since it's
usually used to form copulas. As for Nature, I suppose I could use Ambar,
"the World".

>Qenya Lexicon q(u)ile, "color". I don't believe there's a Quenya word for
>difficult (or easy), so giving Etymologies tarya, "tough, stubborn, hard"
>the English senses would probably work as well as anything. Also possible :
>*anuuheepima or *analaheepima "most un-holdable" but these long made-up
>words would probably not suit the monosyllablic style of Frost's poem. So:
>"antarya quilerya hepien'" (I would say.)

----------------------
Thanks for the word "quile". Unfortunately I don't own a copy of the QL, so
I can't look these things up myself. The word "taryasse" is also from the
PPQ, reconstructed from the Noldorin "tarias". I put the superlative prefix
"an-" on the word, and added an "-a" at the end to make it an adjective. A
rather ungraceful reconstruction, I know, but for this particular version of
my translation of the poem I was going for a literal translation.

>I would suggest suque, "slant down, fall," etc. from the Qenya Lexicon
>(which I don't have with me to verify the exact meaning, but I'll do it
>later or someone else can.) The QL  with its "archaic" level of vocabulary
>is a good source for high-falutin' words like "subsides"

-------------------
How exactly would one conjugate "suq(u)-" in LotR-style Quenya? As far as I
know, no Quenya verb has a stem in "-q(u)".

>Looks fine to me. If you wanted to give it a Middle-Earth feel you could
>substitute Nuumenor for Eden and use (ata?) lantane, "(down) fell."

--------------
Interesting you should bring up the Nuumenor thing. The legend of Nuumenor
happens to be my favorite story of Tolkien's (I know I'm in the minority
here!). In fact, when I first thought about how fitting theis poem would be
for a Middle-earth setting (since the idea of impermanence and "fading" is
central to Tolkien's works) I often subtituted "Andor" (one of the myriad
names of Nuumenor) in for Eden, which I will perhaps do for my less literal
version.

>Or undu or nu-lelya

----------
I think I'll keep "nuun", since the next word, "aurenna", starts with a
vowel, and I would like to avoid the need for elision if I can. I was just
wondering if it was grammatically correct.

>Again, looks fine. I think others have used it. I use uunat, but according
>to recently published Quenya material that supposedly means "an impossible
>thing." (But I still don't think it has to.)

--------
Thanks for the tips! I'll send a separate reply for your other email on
this, the "follow-up". This is mostly a practice poem for my true test, a
translation of the hymn "Amazing Grace". I started it while reading
Fauskanger's Quenya Course. I'm still on the course, but I finished the
translation awhile ago. I didn't want to post it until I finished the Core,
so I could make it as grammatically correct as possible on my own. However,
my progress on the Course has been so slow lately that I'll most likely post
it sooner...look for it to pop out of the ether sometime. (BTW: I'm aware
that I wrote "Core instead of "Course" above, but my infernal computer is in
overtype right now and I can't change it without deleting
everything...grrr...). Even if no one besides you replies to my AG
translation, I'll still be content--in other words "rimbe hantar" for the
help!

Just for fun: I used the Quenya Lapseparma to translate Frost's name, and
came up with "Alcarcalimo Tauro Nixe", "Robert Lee Frost". The word frost
wasn't in the Lapseparma, of course, but it was easy enough to find online.

Maara mesta,
Melime Hwarinnaava

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Interesting translation. It has good rhythm. Your version is much better
than mine in that respect. Here's my somewhat-final version, with some of
the improvements and words you gave me:

Minya wén Ambarwa laurë,
First greenness of [the] World [is] gold,
Antarya quilerya hepë.
Most-difficult her color to-hold.
Arinya lasserya ve lótë;
Early her leaf [is] like [a] flower;
Mal er sië lúmë.
But only thus [an] hour.
San lassë suquë lassenna.
Then leaf falls to-leaf.
Si’ Andor lantanë nyérenna,
Thus Númenor fell to-grief,
Si' ára lelya nún aurenna.
Thus dawn goes down to-day.
Úqua laurëa voruva.
Nothing gold(en) will-endure.

—Alcarcalimo Tauro Nixë
—Robert Lee Frost

As you can see, I got it to rhyme, but the meter is poor. Ah, well...
I'm starting in on Simon and Garfunkel's song "The Sound of Silence".
Abstract lyrics, but actually I'm able to find most of the words I need. I
don't know whether I'll post it or not, since it's not a really "serious"
poem, at least not compared to translations of the Kalevala and the like
that are usually posted here.

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Thank you!

>And another question: How would I make "Tolkien" an adjectival word
(as in Tolkien Society)  _Tolkienë_ ? And if it's modifying _Nossë_
would it change in any way? Thanks again...


------------------------
Adjectives, aside from the colors (red, orange, etc.) rarely end in -e
(which is actually often used as a plural adjectival ending). I would use
-ya instead, which is a common adjectival ending. However, there are several
different possible endings, so I suggest you look up Helge Fauskanger's
Quenya Affixes article on Ardalambion.com. As for the form of adjectives, it
doesn't change unless the noun they're describing is plural, which in your
case it's not.

Earrama (Melime Hwarinnaava

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Aia,
--- Eddin Najetovic <enajetovic@...> wrote:
> >Quí autuvan larcave
> >
> >Quí autuvan larcave.
> >Ve lamano lemba mí taure.
>
> Why _lamano_ and not _lamno_? Metric reasons?

Is that an attested rule that a contraction should
occur in words like this? I can't remember an example
for that.

>
> >Antien sí ilya oar,
>
> Why is _oar_ a seperate preposition, why is it not
> attached to the verb
> (_avantien_) as in _termar-_ _aukiri_ etc.?

avantien could work, yes; I take _oar_ to be rather an
adverb, _oa_ with the old allative suffix

>
> >i mauya nin onotie.
>
> Perhaps _onotie_ should be in dative... would look
> slightly odd though.

I can't tell; we express this with an infinitive with
a pronominal possessive ending (_mennem_)

>
> >
> >Tuiala hinwa-hroanya
>
> Tuiala should perhaps be _tuyala_ or even _túyala_
> (from TUY I presume)?

The verb is given as _tuia_ in Etym. I prefer this
archaic spelling to the inserted _y_ glide of later
stages. ItÍs there in pronunciation anyway.

> _hinwa_ to be compared with _hanwa_ = male?

It's the possessive-adjectival suffix. I like that
suffix, I thinkit makes a very good adjective-former.

>
> >mi ercala uswe parcatien.
>
> Is the elision of the augment intentional?

yes
>
> >Limbe alapare indonya,
>
> I think _úpar-_ would be better, since _ú_ can have
> evil connotations, which
> you would definitely want with a loaded verb like
> this. Then again, _ala_
> may sound more clinical... but what do I know, I'm
> no Elf :)

_alapar-_ sounds more neutral to me, a general purpose
verb

>
> >íre intyan manna utúlien.
>
> As this is a relative sentence, it should be _yanna_
> (whither I've got), not
> _manna_

yes, thanks

>
> >Tyelcave nance ni i maile,
>
> Word order is being very free, I like it :)

yes, one of the reasons I like Quenya: reminds me of
my own language

>
> >ya mistane ettenórenna.
> >Sí ni vaia néca nannainie:
> >tatya cainen loar pollien larta.
>
> Using the ill-attested subjunctive and _tatya_ for
> 'yet'? Could you explain
> that?

_tatya_ was meant "another" here; and subjuntive is
not less attested, than, say, the present continuous
of A-stem verbs ;-) (OK, that's exaggeration)

>
> >Avaquenten illume hanya
> >amilwa quettaron hande.
> >San ahyanen nostalóra, yóntima
>
> yóntima? Shouldn't that be _yontima_?

yes, sorry

>
> >ar lálanen ngolmonyanna.
>
> I'm sure you mean _ñolmonyanna_ here.

sure

>
> >
> >Nessenya, i laiqua ráva sina
> >mírima ar oira namnenye.
> >ar sí nírinen lastan
>
> Probably _hlasta_ (also cf. _hlar_ and Sindarin
> _lhaw_ among other)... how
> long must my crusade for _hl_ in these words
> continue
>
> >i parce olwaron esce.
>
> Odd word... ó before cluster?

I don't get this remark...

Thanks for your comments!!

Shine on,

>
> -Eddin Najetovic
>
>
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=====
Thomas Ferencz

"Manuel!!!
Que?
I'm so sorry, he's from Barcelona."

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On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 08:26  PM, d_daniel_andries@...
wrote:
> Teithant Thomas Ferencs:
>> my question is simple, please don't laugh at me: why
>> does not f lenit to v?
>
> JRRT followed Welsh lenition closely, and 'ff' [f] does not lenite to
> 'f' [v] in Welsh. Similarly, note that 'th' doesn't lenite to 'dh'.

Also, consider that lenition is a weakening of consonants. Say 'ssss'
then say 'zzzzz' and consider which one sounds 'stronger' to you. Then
do it with 'th' and 'dh', and 'fffff' and 'vvvv'. It's obvious that
Tolkien thought that voicing was a mark of strength (as well as being a
stop, but that's a bit of a tangent). I tend to agree, but I don't
suppose everyone has to. However in my historical linguistics text book
there are some examples under the definition of lenition and both are
in accord with Tolkien's/Welsh's system.


->Ben<-
-------------------------------------
"Obviously you're not a golfer."
-The Big Lebowski

--- Ben 'Day' Hamill <Day@...> wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 08:26  PM,
> d_daniel_andries@...
> wrote:
> > Teithant Thomas Ferencs:
> >> my question is simple, please don't laugh at me:
> why
> >> does not f lenit to v?
> >
> > JRRT followed Welsh lenition closely, and 'ff' [f]
> does not lenite to
> > 'f' [v] in Welsh. Similarly, note that 'th'
> doesn't lenite to 'dh'.
>
> Also, consider that lenition is a weakening of
> consonants. Say 'ssss'
> then say 'zzzzz' and consider which one sounds
> 'stronger' to you. Then
> do it with 'th' and 'dh', and 'fffff' and 'vvvv'.
> It's obvious that
> Tolkien thought that voicing was a mark of strength
> (as well as being a
> stop, but that's a bit of a tangent). I tend to
> agree, but I don't
> suppose everyone has to. However in my historical
> linguistics text book
> there are some examples under the definition of
> lenition and both are
> in accord with Tolkien's/Welsh's system.
>
>
> ->Ben<-


Thank you both, Danny and Ben.

Shine on,

=====
Thomas Ferencz

"Manuel!!!
Que?
I'm so sorry, he's from Barcelona."

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> > Why _lamano_ and not _lamno_? Metric reasons?
>
>Is that an attested rule that a contraction should
>occur in words like this? I can't remember an example
>for that.

Tolkien tells us that some stems have syncope in their inflected forms
(_toron_ _torn-_ etc.) _laman_ likewise can become _lamn-_, but _laman-_ is
also allowed. it seems. This would be a formation by analogy (just like the
real plural of _elen_ should properly have been **_eldi_, which it wasn't)

> > Tuiala should perhaps be _tuyala_ or even _túyala_
> > (from TUY I presume)?
>
>The verb is given as _tuia_ in Etym. I prefer this
>archaic spelling to the inserted _y_ glide of later
>stages. ItÍs there in pronunciation anyway.

But since there is only one 'i', would pronunciation not be altered in
lengthening of the stem syllable with participium praesentis?

> > >Limbe alapare indonya,
> >
> > I think _úpar-_ would be better, since _ú_ can have
> > evil connotations, which
> > you would definitely want with a loaded verb like
> > this. Then again, _ala_
> > may sound more clinical... but what do I know, I'm
> > no Elf :)
>
>_alapar-_ sounds more neutral to me, a general purpose
>verb


If that is what you want.

> >
> > >ya mistane ettenórenna.
> > >Sí ni vaia néca nannainie:
> > >tatya cainen loar pollien larta.
> >
> > Using the ill-attested subjunctive and _tatya_ for
> > 'yet'? Could you explain
> > that?
>
>_tatya_ was meant "another" here; and subjuntive is
>not less attested, than, say, the present continuous
>of A-stem verbs ;-) (OK, that's exaggeration)

*laughs* A bit, yes :-P

As for the second to mean 'other', I've seen it before but I'm never sure
what to think of it... it is however the only alternative we have.

> > >i parce olwaron esce.
> >
> > Odd word... ó before cluster?
>
>I don't get this remark...

Whoops, that was supposed to have been somewhere else :) It was a comment to
_yóntima-_

>
>Thanks for your comments!!

And I forgot to tell you, but thanks for the poem, It's really good!

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>And another question: How would I make "Tolkien" an adjectival word
>(as in Tolkien Society)  _Tolkienë_ ? And if it's modifying _Nossë_
>would it change in any way? Thanks again...

Considering how the word is pronounced, I'd expect _Tolcinya_ (for
'Tolkienian') and _Tolcinossë_ or _Tolcinnossë_.

In Sindarin, I don't know ^_^

-Eddin Najetovic

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--- Eddin Najetovic <enajetovic@...> wrote:
> >And another question: How would I make "Tolkien" an
> adjectival word
> >(as in Tolkien Society)  _Tolkienë_ ? And if it's
> modifying _Nossë_
> >would it change in any way? Thanks again...
>
> Considering how the word is pronounced, I'd expect
> _Tolcinya_ (for
> 'Tolkienian') and _Tolcinossë_ or _Tolcinnossë_.
>
> In Sindarin, I don't know ^_^

One can always use a translation: Q *Vercáno, S
*Bregon -> "bold-valiant" -> Tollkühn German "bold"..

Shine on,

=====
Thomas Ferencz

"Manuel!!!
Que?
I'm so sorry, he's from Barcelona."

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--- Eddin Najetovic <enajetovic@...> wrote:


> >The verb is given as _tuia_ in Etym. I prefer this
> >archaic spelling to the inserted _y_ glide of later
> >stages. ItÍs there in pronunciation anyway.
>
> But since there is only one 'i', would pronunciation
> not be altered in
> lengthening of the stem syllable with participium
> praesentis?

Yes, presumably. Túiala, then.



> >
> >_tatya_ was meant "another" here; and subjuntive is
> >not less attested, than, say, the present
> continuous
> >of A-stem verbs ;-) (OK, that's exaggeration)
>
> *laughs* A bit, yes :-P

Well, we have only _órea_ for the latter, and _ullier_
and _erekkoitanie_ for the former... that's 2:1 to the
subjunctive:-P

> And I forgot to tell you, but thanks for the poem,
> It's really good!

Thanks. It's a rewarding task to work from the
original of a genius. The poet threw himself in front
of a freight train not much later, by the way.

Shine on,

=====
Thomas Ferencz

"Manuel!!!
Que?
I'm so sorry, he's from Barcelona."

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Yes, _ínen_ is what seems the most likely on phonological grounds.
For instance, for _cuivie_ "awakening" we would have: _*cuivie-inen_
> _*cuiviínen_ > _cuivínen_

There would be a problem with the dative too. We have _lassin_ as
dative plural and _lassínen_ as an instrumental plural of _lasse_ in
Plotz's Letter. What would be these cases for _cuivie_ "awakening" ?
Well, I suppose _*cuivie-in_ > _cuivín_ in Pre-Exilic > _cuivin_ in
Exilic with the shortening of vowels in final syllables of
polysyllables (cf. Plotz's Letter)

There remains an awkward situation with words like _tie_ "road, way"
or _lie_ "people". Forms like dative pl. _tín_ and _lín_ ,
instrumental _tínen_ and _línen_ would only remotely recall their
bases. Well, they may have remained all the same... or perhaps they
we avoided and substitutes were in use instead (general plurals,
synonyms, pronouns... I do not know). Only Tolkien could say.

In the instrumental at least, it might be that the plural marker _r_
was preferred to _i_ ? Then we would have _tiernen_ and _liernen_,
which look less clumsy. But then we could wonder why the instr. pl.
of vocalic stems like _cirya_  is not in _-rnen_, since we have
_ciryainen_ and not _**ciryarnen_...

BTW, _tie_ also exists with the same meaning in Finnish, I think ;-)
Is there anything special in its declension ? Perhaps this would give
ideas ?

Nai Anar caluva tielmanna !
Bertrand Bellet

Eddin Najetovic wrote:

> As for the second to mean 'other', I've seen it before but I'm
> never sure what to think of it... it is however the only
> alternative we have.

Well, english 'second' and 'other' have one finnish equivalent:
_toinen_ < _tuo_ 'that' + _-inen_ adjectival ending. And in
Hungarian, _másod(ik)_ 'second' is derived from _más(ik)_ 'other'.
So, although not attested, it's semantically reasonable in lack of
anything better.

Ondo Tambaro

Aiya!

Is there by any chance an attested Quenya word for 'beer'? I can not
find any at the wordlists at www.ardalambion.com, nor at Qenya
Lexicon, nor yet do I recall seeing such.

Could a reasonable word be coined for it? _Beer_ probably comes from
Vulgar Latin _biber_ 'beverage'. _Ale_ (with Finnish _olut_, Swedish
_öl_ etc.) is perhaps ultimately derived from a Proto-Indo-European
root meaning 'bitter'. So something like 'bitter-drink'?
*_Sárasuhto_ 'bitter-draught'??

Namárie!

Ondo Erulasto Tambaro (Petri Samuel Tikka)
http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/

--- Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@...> wrote:

> they are Anglosaxon runes (like those used by Tolkien
> in Thror's map, representing the cirth) and they read
> BDO
>
> does anyone know the source? and what is this BDO representing?
>

Don't know the source, but in UT: The Quest for Erebor, where Gandalf is
explaining how he got involved with Thorin's quest, he tells Gimli and
Frodo that he told Thorin that Bilbo was a professional burgler and that
he scratched the appropriate sign on Bilbo's door to indicate this, so
when Thorin came to the Shire he would know which door to knock on.

Perhaps BDO means: Burgler's Door Open, which it certainly was.

Arthur

=====
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>Well, english 'second' and 'other' have one finnish equivalent:
>_toinen_ < _tuo_ 'that' + _-inen_ adjectival ending. And in
>Hungarian, _másod(ik)_ 'second' is derived from _más(ik)_ 'other'.
>So, although not attested, it's semantically reasonable in lack of
>anything better.


I know, slavonic languages also have _drug-_ for both second and other (they
have lost the PIE stems for _two_ and _second_ in this case)... doesn't mean
I have to like it :)

-Eddin Najetovic

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>Could a reasonable word be coined for it? _Beer_ probably comes from
>Vulgar Latin _biber_ 'beverage'. _Ale_ (with Finnish _olut_, Swedish
>_öl_ etc.) is perhaps ultimately derived from a Proto-Indo-European
>root meaning 'bitter'. So something like 'bitter-drink'?
>*_Sárasuhto_ 'bitter-draught'??

Why not make the derivation shorter? _sárasuhto_ seems to be a bit long for
such an elemental drink like beer. Perhaps just affix the stem SAG to SUK?
_Saxuhto_?

And mr. Tikka, you disappoint me, grabbing the beer at that young age ;-)

-Eddin Najetovic

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>Well, we have only _órea_ for the latter, and _ullier_
>and _erekkoitanie_ for the former... that's 2:1 to the
>subjunctive:-P

Of which the latter is probably not wholly valid :P Still, aren't there more
continuous forms? _síla_ comes to mind...

>Thanks. It's a rewarding task to work from the
>original of a genius. The poet threw himself in front
>of a freight train not much later, by the way.

It is a sad, but true, fact that the best poets are often the weirdest and
most depressed nutcases of the world... so in that aspect I'm glad I am not
a real poet.

-Eddin Najetovic

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At 21:15 1.3.2004, William Womack wrote:

>Or (indigenously) in Celtic. I wonder why that happens.

In Celtic it happened in stages p > f > h > nothing.
Nobody knows how it happened in Iroquoian, since no *p
is reconstructible for proto-Iroquoian.

>. There is no /p/
>in Iroquoian languages.
>
>BTW _Iroquois_ is a French spelling of the Native
>Americans' pronunciation of Basque _Ilokoa_ 'killers'.
>Basque fishermen heard about them, or met them, and
>translated the Algonquinians' name for them.
>
>Anverca! Talk about a tangled etymological trail! I'm probably a glutton
>for punishment asking this, but what was the original Algonquian name?

You may ask, but I don't know the answer.


>And I'd be interested to compare your version of Quenya place names (if
>any) with mine. I'm not too happy with "Hicaaco" ("Chicago") or "S/T/Cina,
>"China." (None of the last three sound right.)

I'd use _Cataye_, from the Mongol name _Katai_ used by Marco Polo.
Russian has _Kitay_, which must be from the same source.

BTW native _Nihon_ or _Nippon_ makes much better Quenya than _Yapaan_!

I've also played around with _Hwestanoore_ for 'Sweden',
based on the Latin name Suetia/Suecia.  I guess _Hwestya_
or _Hwestyande_ would work.  _Soome_ < native _Suomi_
for Finland seems OK too.  Denmark and Norway are a lot
trickier.

As for Chicago I googled for "chicago etymology" and found the following:

<http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/11/11-1676.html>
<www.linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-3102.html>

So it seems _Hyecaaqua_ or _Secaaqua_ would fit Quenya phonology!


>pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
>
>("Beyond/rear/middle/journey/awakening hail, say what?")

Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, awakening hail.

It's a translation of a Buddhist mantra which goes in Sanskrit:
"Gate, gate, paaragate, paarasa.mgate bodhi svaahaa".


/BP 8^)
--
B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
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