Hi,

Just thought I'd note while the topic is "live" that I translated a bunch
of names as well a while back; they're in need of revision (*ties knot in
handkerchief*), but if anyone's interested they're at:

http://www.ircworks.com/~targaff/names.htm

Targaff

Suilad,

I'll briefly provide my last comments on this text before going
in vacation.

Luca:
> > > Nessanar panta poldorya
> >_nessa_ adj. "young". But what is supposed _nessana_ to
> >mean?
>
> It meant to be a word composed by _nessa_ "young" and _anar_
> "sun"

In that case I would say _anar nessa_ or perhaps _anar nessima_,
using a regular adjectival construct instead of a compound.
Quenya is not that agglutinative!

"The young sun full of strength". Perhaps simply read
_poldoreo_, with genetive/partitive ending.

> > > namaùyana autaie
> >
> >Hmm. I am puzzled by the unclear construct _namaùyana_. It
> >doesn't sound much Quenya.
> >What is _autaie_ supposed to mean? The ending is unusual.
> >Perhaps you had in mind the irregular verb _auta_, though
> >I don't see what you are trying to say here.
>
> "is forced to leave"
> _namauyana_ : _na_ is the verb "to be" which, for what I know,
> is used to build passive tences [please forgive my awful english],
> _mauya_ "to force", _na_ the suffix for the past participle. For
> what I know this is the way to build passive tences, but I'm
> really not sure.

Unfortunately we do not know how to form passive constructs
in Quenya. It is unlikely that _namauyana_ could be valid.

> _autaie_ : _auta_ "to leave", _ie_ the form to build
> infinitives.

That should be _autie_ then. The final /a/ is certainly
displaced by the gerund/infinitive ending /-ie/.

> > > an i lasselantelantalondi
> >For the ...
> >
> >The final compound seems to contain _lasselanta_ "leaf-fall,
> >autumn", but I do not understand it. It's doubtful whether
> >such a long compound is valid in Quenya.
>
> _lasselantalondi_ : the docks of autumn

Then read _londi lasselantava_ "the autumnal docks". As for your
*_nessanar_ above, compounds should not be so frequent. Besides
being difficult to interpret, I don't think they were so widely
used in daily conversation.

> > > Ai! Manen tyeluva sina kyralamista?
> >Las! How will end this grey-**kyrala
> >
> >I can't get the last word. It is presumably an error, as
> >/y/ can't be a vowel in Quenya.
>
> this grey navigation, journey (_kyra_ the same derivation of
> _markyria_ of the markyria poem)

It is _markirya_ (not **markyria) "ark", with _cirya_ "ship".
Would *_ciryala_ work for "navigation"? I don't think so (but
I am not an authority!:)

For journey, you could perhaps use *_lende_ (cf. Sindarin
*_lend_, _lenn-_ in lembas < lenn-mbas "journey-bread")

Hence a compound _mistalende_ (in that order) or a regular
adjectival construct _lende mista_.

> I'm very grateful for your interest.

You are welcome.

See you all in two weeks.

Didier.

"Helge K. Fauskanger" wrote:

> > Well, for those who are interested my draft version of Quenya Babybook
> > can be found on
> > http://www.inf.upol.cz/~mullerr/theresa/names.html
>
> Wow! Nice work, Ales! I haven't looked at every entry in detail but it
> seems very good. Very comprehensive, too! I hope a permanent place can be
> found for it (so that I can safely link to it!)

**Thank you. I got some similar reactions, but I personally have mixed
feelings about the babybook.
However I will think about what to do with it.
There is some deal of work to do and something remains question
for me. Any help is welcome.
And maybe someone could help or comment the points below.

i. I was wondering how to form feminine names from adjectives
which end with _-ea_, e.g. from *_alassea_ "joyful". The masc.
would be _Alasseo(n)_, but how would fem. look like? I employed
an ending _-ie_, thus I formed _Alassie_.
At _vea_ I used _-sse_, so _Veasse_.

ii. I formed *_holle_ as a diminutive of _hoon_ "heart" upon a
basis of _nelle_ "brook" - _khoon + le_ as _nen + le_.

iii. I found a problem with _Voronwe_. This is a man's name,
though it ends with _-e_. But this probably has an ending _-we_
found in couple of masc. names. We also have fem. _Elenwe_
with the same ending (though I was wondering whether it is
not derived from an unattested adj. *_elenwa_). Based on these
examples I assumed that _-we_ covers both masc. and fem..

iv. I coined *_herwa_ meaning "lordly" based on _melwa_
"lovely" or _engwa_ "sickly". And also *_menelwa_ "heavenly".

v. Very doubtful *_carnilin(a)_ "of Mars" - I am not sure at all.
Maybe it could be ?_carnillin_ or ?_carnildin_, I do not know.

vi. As well _earin(a)_ "of the sea".

vii. I was not sure about diminutives in general. As far as I know
we have two endings: _-lle_ and _-ince_. Based upon few
examples we have I used the former for non-living words and
the latter for the living ones covering both masc. and fem..

viii. I needed a pure masc. equivalent of _taari_ - I used *_taaru_.

ix. What about *_oloorie_ for "collection of flowers, flora"?

x. I coined probably doubtful word _encaita-_ "replace, supplant";
_caita_ "place" from QL.

I can't recollect more for now.


Ales Bican

--
**i've seen the light in the misty skies oh yeah (sunscreem, secrets)

Concerning E. Kloczko's messages "Qenya pronouns and verb chart".

Finally we have some new unpublished material. Thank you Edouard very, very
much !!!
I hope you will show us more. Maybe somebody could reconstruct another
verbs' forms (for example _tul-_, _lelya-_, etc.).

I would be interested how did Edouard get this interesting material. Maybe
he could publish it on the web or simply reprint it.

Yours,

Ryszard Derdzinski
Galadhorn

maggot@...
http://www.kki.net.pl/~galadorn/language.htm

**************************************************************
Richard = GALADHORN < gala- 'prosperous, rich, blessed' (LR 357) + dorn
'stiff, tough, *hard' (WJ 413)

**************************************************************

Some time ago Didier Willis posted a sketch of patterns for using
-ina/-na when forming past participles, and I reread it a while ago (I
found no replies to it) and started to think about it (I needed it for
some [very basic] Quenya classes I'm writing and Josu Gomez's related
post to Lambenor reminded me of it), and thought of an easier to
understand (at least for me) form of the patterns he describes.

1st group: basic verbs that normally undergo nasal infixion
  These add -ina and lengthen the stem vowel.

2nd group: basics verbs that don't undergo nasal infixion
  These add -na, or in case of verbs ending in -l they add -da.

3rd group: derived verbs (except -ya verbs, I guess they should just add
-na?)
  These add -ina.

Then there are the verbs he includes in the 5th group (I ignore turuuna
since it might be a misreading), terhanta and vaquenta, which I can't
place easily, maybe compound verbs (is this the term? I mean basic verbs
that have a prefix) will undergo nasal infixion and add -a? (and in case
of verbs that end in -r and -l just add -na and -da?).
  Any thoughts welcome!
  Angasule

PD: Since the original post is a few months old (27th November) I'm
reposting the core of it (if you comment on it you would find useful the
original message, I snipped two groups and *many* comments he wrote).

> 1st group: basic verbs, paradigm rak- "to break".
> ----------
>
> The participle takes the ending -ina, whereas the last syllable
> of the verbal base is lengthened.
>
> The main examples come from a late poem (post-LotR) published
> in _The Monsters and the Critics_:
>
>      raakina "broken" (verb rak-)
>      ruukina "shattered" (verb *ruk-, not attested with that
>                           meaning)
>
> Another example occurs in _The Lost Road_:
>
>      nootina "counted" (verb not-)


[snipped 2nd group since it might be a misreading]

> 3rd group: basic verbs, paradigm car- "to make"
> ----------
>
>       care > *carna
>
> The ending -na is added to the verbal base.
>
> In _The Lord of the Rings_, the name of a tengwar, silme
> nuquerna "reversed S", presumably contains such a participle:
>
>      nuquerna "reversed" (from a verb *nuquere, not attested,
>            perhaps intelligible as nu-*quere 'to turn under')
>
> Another participle from this group is exemplified in Arda
> Vincarna ("Arda healed or renewed") in _Morgoth's Ring_:
>
>      vincarna "remade, repaired" (certainly the verb care
>           "to make" with a prefix, cf. vinya "new")
>
> 4th group: derived verbs, paradigm hosta "to gather,
> ----------                                to collect"
>
>       hosta > *hostaina
>
> The ending -ina is added to the verb. _Morgoth's Ring_
> provides a clear example:
>
>      hastaina "marred" (from a verb hasta- not attested, but also
>                         occurring in alahasta).
>
> The same phenomenon is exemplified in a text from _The Lost Road_:
>
>      *hostaina "counted, collected" (the verb hosta is attested
>           elsewhere -- in the name Hostamir and the infinitive
>           ahosta -- and the Qenya text in LR gives the derived
>           form hostainieeva, which shows a multiply inflected
>           pattern, hosta-PART-GERUND-FUTURE, "will have been
>           counted". Though allowed in early Qenya, that
>           phenomenon is probably not valid in late LotR-style
>           Quenya.
>
> 5th group: derived verbs, paradigm  *envinyata "to renew"
> ----------
>
>       *envinyata- > envinyanta
>                     (instead of **envinyantaina)
>
> The verbs belonging to this category show a mutation of their verbal
> base, by metathesis.
>
>      envinyanta "renewed"
>           (a priori *envinyat-na > **envinyatna > envinyanta
>           with metathesis -- the verb *envinyata- is not attested,
>           but Aragorn is called Envinyatar)

[snipped irregular group and extra examples]

Quenya has those very convenient fem. and masc. endings "-e" and
"-o",
but what about Sindarin? For instance, I want to make a S. name
meaning 'Peace'. Etym. gives "Sidh", but how do I make a fem. name
from that? I thought about using endings like "-iel" and "-wen" that
mean 'maiden', but I don't want to change the meaning of the name to
'Peace-Maiden'. What about '-eth' and 'ien'? Are these fem. endings?
And what are some masc. ones?

-T.C.

The "I Can Eat Glass Project" <http://hcs.harvard.
edu/~igp/glass.html>
is an attempt to compile a list of ways to say, "I can eat glass; it
doesn't hurt me" in as many languages as possible. The Sindarin
sentence found on that site is "Bathathon heled; im ú-cirath." Is
this
correct?

A note to the translation reads: The Languages of Tolkien's
Middle-Earth by Ruth S. Noel suggests that the future tense can be
used to imply ability. "Bath-" is a back-formed verb stem meaning "to
consume," derived from Quenya (a related Elvish language) vasa
according to patterns established by other words.

What are the correct S. and Q. translations of this sentence?

-T.C.

P.S. Yes, I've got WAY too much time on my hands.

I recently made a concerted effort to acquire a copy of the out-of-print
"The Road Goes Ever On". I was apparently more successful than I had
expected.  I now have TWO copies.  If anyone is interested in this extra
copy, email me privately.

David

David E. Bell
The Gray Wizard
dbell@...
www.graywizard.net

‘Yes, I think I shall express the accusative case by a prefix!’

A memorable remark! …Just consider the splendour of the words!   ‘I shall
express the accusative case.’  Magnificent!  Not ‘it is expressed’ nor even
the more shambling ‘it is sometimes expressed’, nor the grim ‘you must learn
how it is expressed’.  What a pondering of alternatives within one’s choice
before the final decision in favour of the daring and unusual prefix, so
personal, so attractive; the final solution of some element in a design that
had hitherto proved refractory.  Here were no base considerations of the
‘practical’, the easiest for the ‘modern mind’, or for the million – only a
question of taste, a satisfaction of a personal pleasure, a private sense of
fitness.”

(from The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays - A Secret Vice,
by J.R.R. Tolkien [Houghton Mifflin Company 1984])

Dear Lambengolmor,

I am surprised there is no reaction to the relevant Edward Kloczko's
message. In my opinion these two Tolkien's texts (I mean 'Verb Chart' and
'Pronouns Chart') delivered to us by the French linguist are the most
important documents concerning Quenya grammar since "The War of the Jewels"
and "Qenyaqetsa".

Before I examine the grammar of the 'Verb Chart' I must say (unfortunately)
about my doubts concerning the copyright of this text. I believe Edward
Kloczko didn't break the copyright law publishing the 'Verb Chart'. I mean I
hope he has Tolkien Estate's and Marquette University's permission to
publish the unpublished Tolkien's materials on the Web. I would be grateful
if he informed us if it was legal or not! (I am not sure if examining the
illegal publications is legal).

Concerning grammar, especially the 'Verb Chart' delivered by Kloczko can be
very useful in analyzing Quenya coniugation. For example we see now that the
verb _hiruva_ in _nai hiruvalyë_ 'maybe thou shalt find' (RGEO 67) is in
fact Conditional, not Future form. Future form should be, I believe,
_hirival_ 'thou will find'.

So, Q(u)enya verb has six basic inflectional forms (divided into two
relative groups):

a) Present Tense
b) Perfect Tense
c) Future Tense

d) Aorist
e) Past
f) Conditional

We know more about the Aorist thanks to Christopher Gilson, Patrick Wynne,
Helge Fauskanger and David Salo (see H. Fauskanger's "Ardalambion"). Earlier
we distinguished only one Present Tense (see Nancy Martsch's "Basic
Quenya"). About the Past and Perfect Tense difference we read in Helge's
text. What the Tolkien's chart delivered by Kloczko reveals is COMPLETELY
NEW EXPLANATION of CONDITIONAL and FUTURE !!!

As I guess Future Tense is formed by:

(1) adding suffix _-va_ to the reduplicated i-stems in basic (strong) verbs
like _lir-_ 'sing', _hir-_ 'find' (_liriva_, *_hiriva_).

(2) adding suffix _-uva_ to the other basic verbs (like _mar-_ 'abide' >
_maruvan_) and to so called 'derived' verbs (like _laita-_ 'praise' >
_laituva_).

Conditional is formed by adding suffix _-uva_ to all groups of verbs [?].

I wonder what Tolkien ment by 'past active' and 'past passive' E. Kloczko
writes: "under the pronouns chart at Marquette JRRT describes the past
passive and past active verbal suffixes. JRRT wrote just "act." under the
word "passive" so it can only mean "avtive"."

As Kloczko writes the passive suffixes are : _-na_, _-(i)na*_ and _-nwa_.

The active suffixes are _-ya(la)_, _-ila*_, and _-lya_.

[Note : * Over the i there is a "short" sign].

I hope I open a big linguistic discussion - its goal is to explain all the
forms delivered by Edward Kloczko.

Yours,

Ryszard Derdzinski
Galadhorn

maggot@...
http://www.kki.net.pl/~galadorn/language.htm

**************************************************************
Richard = GALADHORN < gala- 'prosperous, rich, blessed' (LR 357) + dorn
'stiff, tough, *hard' (WJ 413)

**************************************************************

Ryszard Derdzinski schrieb am Ò[elfling] Q(u)enya verbs and copyrightsÓ.
[2000/05/16 19:32]


I wonder what Tolkien ment by 'past active' and 'past passive' E. Kloczko
> writes: "under the pronouns chart at Marquette JRRT describes the past
> passive and past active verbal suffixes. JRRT wrote just "act." under the
> word "passive" so it can only mean "avtive"."

I think he meant just what he said. The endings seem to form sets of past
passive participles and past active participles. These wd correspond to
English e.g. "having been seen" (passive) and "having seen" (active). I
believe the endings refer to participles ( and in turn to "secondary
tenses", which cd be derived from them), since the "basic" or "primary"
verbal inflection does not use them. -Looks all slightly Finnish to me :).
Although ppa's are of course common in many languages including Indo-
European.
Or what was it exactly that wasn't clear to you ?

I agree that what E. Kloczko published is an extremely interesting bit of
information. I only read it today. Note for instance that the main
difference between present tense and aorist is the length of the root
vowel. E.g. _tiir-_ against _tir-_. If we add the respective particple
(past active) endings and sindarize it we get S. _diiriel_ and _diriel_
with exactly the same root vowel quantity correlation.
Now this is great stuff !

David Kiltz

Hi Lambendili !

I'm working on the french translation of Helge's Ardalambion
(http://ardalambion.fr.free.fr/), and I need a little help :
In Helge's articles, there are some references to the books (WJ for "War of
the Jewels", UT for "Unfinished Tales", and so on), but these references are
only suitable for  the English versions of these books. That's why I'm
trying to give the references for the french editions (when the french
translation exist of course !), but I'we encountered a problem with UT :
the french translation is in 3 volumes and I'm not sure that the chapter
order had been kept. I've found almost all of the references (thanx to the
index I wrote when I was reading the book) but  some of  them are missing.
Could anybody give tell me to which chapters of UT the following words
belong, and where (beginning, middle, end, or perhaps some informations to
locate them easily) ?

aranel (UT:434)
ondo (UT:459)
sarnië (UT:463)
Úrimë (UT:302)

ll these references are given in the Quenya wordlist on Helge's site.

I hope someone will take the time to answer me, because I've bought UT in
French and I don't want to buy it again in English or to read it entirely
just to find 4 words... Thank you !

Namárië

Sébastien Bertho, A.K.A. Toko

Ryszard Derdzinski wrote:

>I am surprised there is no reaction to the relevant Edward Kloczko's
>message [...] I must say (unfortunately) about my doubts concerning the
>>copyright of this text. [...] I would be grateful if he informed us if it
>was
>legal or not! (I am not sure if examining the illegal publications is legal).

    According to my reading of Edward Kloczko's posting, Edward has
presented some of the data in the text which he has read, and has not
reproduced the text itself.  Since information is not per se the subject of
copyright, I do not believe Edward has violated any law; nor can it be
"illegal" to discuss the material he presents in any country which has
protections for free speech.  The very brief elements that might be
considered quotation (heading plus form) fall easily under 'fair use',
especially since it is hard to see how the data could be presented any
other way.
    I think that attempting to make a public case of this is detrimental to
the cause of Tolkien linguistic scholarship in general, since that
scholarship can hardly prosper if each person studying Tolkien's languages
has to look over his or her shoulder to see if some "copyright hawk" is
preparing to pounce.  Characterization of the normal exercise of
scholarship (namely, the discovery, analysis, and publication of
_information_) as a legal offense is in itself offensive and unjust.  We
should be encouraging the release of more information, not looking for ways
to choke it off.  The proper questions that can be asked of information of
this sort are, I think, "where does it come from?" "is it accurate?" "when
was it written?" "what relevance does it have?" "what is its context?" and
so on.  "Are we allowed to know this?," is not, however, the first question
that comes to my mind; it seems more nearly relevant to dictatorial regimes
in which the flow of information is strictly controlled.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

On Tue, 16 May 2000, Ryszard Derdzinski wrote:

> Concerning grammar, especially the 'Verb Chart' delivered by Kloczko can be
> very useful in analyzing Quenya coniugation. For example we see now that the
> verb _hiruva_ in _nai hiruvalyë_ 'maybe thou shalt find' (RGEO 67) is in
> fact Conditional, not Future form. Future form should be, I believe,
> _hirival_ 'thou will find'.

But we have what is certainly a future form: _enquantuva_ ("Sii man i
yulma nin enquantuva?") I wonder how much we can extrapolate from a Qenya
verb chart...


	 Saluti,
	 Emanuele.

	 "He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also
	 liked runes and letters and cunning handwriting..."
		 -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

At 19:39 17.5.2000 -0600, David Salo wrote:

>    I think that attempting to make a public case of this is detrimental to
>the cause of Tolkien linguistic scholarship in general, since that
>scholarship can hardly prosper if each person studying Tolkien's languages
>has to look over his or her shoulder to see if some "copyright hawk" is
>preparing to pounce.  Characterization of the normal exercise of
>scholarship (namely, the discovery, analysis, and publication of
>_information_) as a legal offense is in itself offensive and unjust.

I would like to point out that David salo's observations apply not only "to
the cause of Tolkien linguistic scholarship in general" but to *all*
scholarship.  Scholars questioning the legitimacy of the normal exercise of
scholarship is alarming indeed!  Unfortunately we have seen this phenomenon
before in the Tolkien field.  While the interests of scholars, heirs and
publishers may sometimes (alas!) be in conflict, it is important that they
do not get mixed up with one another: scholars should uphold and defend the
interests and rights of scholarship, heirs the interests and rights of
family, and publishers the interests and rights of publishers.  If
conflicts as to the limit of these rights arise -- and they almost
inevitably will at some times -- they should be settled *once they have
arisen*, and of course peacefully if at all possible.  For
any party's interests to be set aside by representatives of that party
playing cronies to another party is in the long run detrimental to the
interests of all parties, and more importantly to the interests of free
speech and the free exchange of ideas.

When will Tolkien scholars -- and Tolkien linguistic scholars in particular
-- cease to look ascance upon their own discipline, accepting the
prejudiced view that their discipline is somehow less serious, less
relevant and less respectable than others'?  Surely Shakespeare scholars do
not look down on themselves because the activities of some amateur
Shakespeare companies sometimes verge on the silly or absurd, or because
the owners of manuscripts and Shakespeare-related sites want to make
money?  This is *not* a question of copyright but of different interests of
scholars and other parties concerned, and how long it has been since the
author passed away is of marginal importance: those who have custody of
manuscripts will *always* wrangle with those who have not -- check out the
history of the Dead Sea scrolls, if you do not believe me!



/BP

   B.Philip Jonsson  mailto:melroch@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen pennuid i phith!                \ \
     __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
     \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
     / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
    / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
   /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angelmiel\ \_____/ / a/ /_adar Merthol naun
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

> The "I Can Eat Glass Project" <http://hcs.harvard.edu/~igp/glass.html>
is an attempt to compile a list of ways to say, "I can eat glass; it
doesn't hurt me" in as many languages as possible. The Sindarin  sentence
found on that site is "Bathathon heled; im ú cirath." Is this correct?

** Well...no.

> A note to the translation reads: The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-Earth
by Ruth S. Noel suggests that the future tense can be  used to imply
ability. "Bath-" is a back-formed verb stem meaning "to consume," derived
from Quenya (a related Elvish language) vasa according to patterns
established by other words.

** Yes, _bath-_ COULD be the cognate of Quenya _Vasa_...but unfortunately
the verb _batho_ actually means "to trample" in Noldorin/Sindarin (LR:352).
_Bathathon_ = "I shall trample". Trample on glass? Hm. Sounds unpleasant.

** Ruth Noel's work is generally held to be quite unreliable.

** The suggested translation completely ignores the Sindarin mutations. A
word _heled_ would have to become _cheled_ when it is the object of a verb.
And "glass" isn't _heled_, but _heledh_ (Silmarillion Appendix, entry
_khelek-_). In the "Noldorin" of Etym, the word for glass was _hele_
(KHYEL[ES]), but the Silmarillion is a better source here.

** Following the negation _ú_ we have soft mutation, so _cirath_ should
have been _girath_...except for the fact that whatever _ú girath_ may mean,
it certainly does NOT mean "it doesn't hurt me". And neither does the even
more incorrect form _ú cirath_, of course.

> What are the correct S. and Q. translations of this sentence?

** If we try to translate "I can eat glass; it doesn't hurt me", the main
problem is that we don't have a good verb "can". Using the Noelian solution
of substituting the future tense, we can have _medithon_ = "I will eat".
For "hurt" we can use _harno_ "to wound" (LR:386 s.v. SKAR, present tense
_*harna_, participle _*harnannen_, lenited _*charnannen_.). _Medithon
cheledh; darthathon ú-charnannen_ = "I will eat glass; I shall stay
un-wounded"? (Uncertain whether _dartha-_ "wait, stay, last, endure" can be
used like this.) Difficult to translate "it doesn't hurt me" directly since
we don't have a certain accusative pronoun "me", only _im_ "I"
(nominative), _nín_ "my" (genitive) and _anim_ "for me" (dative).

** In Quenya, _tur-_ has been used for "can", though this depends on some
very early material. Then we could have this sentence: _Turin mate hyelle,
lá harnas nye_ (or: _umis harna nye_, _umis nye-harna_ or whatever). This
would be a straightforward translation of "I can eat glass; it doesn't hurt
me".

- HF

>"Are we allowed to know this?," is not, however, the first question
>that comes to my mind; it seems more nearly relevant to dictatorial
> >regimes
>in which the flow of information is strictly controlled.

Or to corporations that want to monopolize infromations to make money!
>
>/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
>\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo

But I actuallay had something slightly more relevant to say. I've been
thinking I should ask for ages, but not come around to it until now; what do
this "WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS / WRAIQS NU IST" that Mr Salo adds to his
messages mean? It looks like Gothic to me, is that correct?

                                                       Andreas
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Well, some year ago I wrote a shortish poem in a language of my own devising
(called _tairezazh_ in itself, an' I'm quite sure JRRT wouldn't liked the
sound of it!), which I then translated to english. Now I'm trying to
translate it into Quenya too. Hearkening to Helge Fauskanger's sagely
advice, I'll try to be very paedalogical (spelling?).

The poem in English:

"Take my hand
and we will walk together
thru joys and sorrows
to the end of our time"

My try at turning it into Quenya:

"Neta maanya
ar olelyuvalve
ter alassi ar nyéri
tyelenna Lúmelvo"

Interlinear with comments:

_Neta maanya_
"get-imperative hand-my"
(not too happy with this, but can't find a better word for "take")

_ar olelyuvalve_
"and together-walk-will-we[dual]"
(any better way to express "together" than the _o-_-prefix?)

_ter alassi ar nyéri_
"thru joys and sorrows"
(I know HF think/thought it should be "nyérer", but I went with the "elves
can't stand final -rVr"-theory)

_tyelenna Lúmelvo_
"end-to time-our[dual]-of"

What do you sagely folks think?

                                                   Andreas


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> I'm working on the french translation of Helge's Ardalambion
> (http://ardalambion.fr.free.fr/), and I need a little help :

Another translator!. This is really extending through the whole world
(I'm one of the Spanish translators of Ardalambion ;)

> but I'we encountered a problem with UT :
> the french translation is in 3 volumes and I'm not sure that the
chapter
> order had been kept. I've found almost all of the references (thanx
to the
> index I wrote when I was reading the book) but  some of  them are
missing.

Something similar happened with the Spanish edition, that was
originally published in 3 volumes too.

> Could anybody give tell me to which chapters of UT the following
words
> belong, and where (beginning, middle, end, or perhaps some
informations to
> locate them easily) ?
>
> aranel (UT:434)
> ondo (UT:459)
> sarnië (UT:463)

These three words are found in the Name Index, located at the end of
the book, under the entries _Emerwen_, _Ondosto_ and _Serni_
respectively. But, in the original Spanish edition, this Name Index
wasn't published (perhaps something similar with the French edition?)

> Úrimë (UT:302)

It appears in the Third Part (the Thrid Age), chapter "Cirion and
Eorl", section "(iii) Cirion and Eorl", between the section beginning
and the Cirion's Oath in Quenya.

> I hope someone will take the time to answer me, because I've bought
UT in
> French and I don't want to buy it again in English or to read it
entirely
> just to find 4 words... Thank you !

I think this won't be necessary. You're welcome.
Javier Lorenzo

I am happy to say that I now have five generous people willing to
take over for me when I am out of town: Scott Bennett, John Cowan, B.
Philip Jonsson, Marcus Smith, and John Wordsworth. This should be enough to
ensure that Elfling doesn't have extended down-time, or very probably any
down-time at all. My thanks to all five volunteers!

	 Scott will be moderating Elfling between May 20 and May 24.

---------------

	 On the issue Ryszard Derdzinski raised:

	 I am in total agreement with the responses of David Salo and B.
Philip Jonsson on this subject. I will also point out that the ideal behind
copyright law is the creation and divulgation of *more* ideas. Those who
use copyright to forbid the publication and open discussion of ideas may
have legal precedent behind them (and even this is somewhat doubtful,
judging from what I've read), but they are clearly in disagreement with the
*spirit* of the law.

	 They are also, in my opinion as a sometime scholar, acting in an
ethically reprehensible fashion.

	 As moderator of Elfling, obviously I've stuck my neck out by
approving Ed Kloczko's recent posts. I'm okay with that; I consider it the
right thing to have done, and I'll do it again, whenever I'm convinced that
such posts are legally and ethically defensible. There's a fair bit of
interesting unpublished stuff (including quite a lot about Common Speech)
at the Marquette library in Milwaukee, and there are bits and pieces
floating about elsewhere. Go ye and analyze it. Elfling is here for the
results of your analysis.

	 Anyone who disagrees with what I am doing is welcome to remonstrate
with me (though I hope it is clear that I'm pretty firm on this point!), or
to leave Elfling altogether. Remonstrances may be private (subject to the
paragraph below) or public; for this specific issue, I am relaxing the
usual rule about emailing me directly about moderation concerns.

	 Because the history of Tolkien studies is rife with attempts at
personal intimidation of people who have done things similar to what I am
now doing, I wish to state publicly that I will make any such attempts
public, either by posting them to Elfling or placing them on my own
website. I justify this with the notion that anything that happens
regarding Elfling happens to *Elfling*, not just to me, and Elfling members
should have the chance to react to it.

	 The cloak-and-dagger absurdities that have marked the last decade
or so of work on Tolkien's languages have got to stop. If they stop here,
fine; I had hoped Elfling would serve that purpose.

Dorothea

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dorothea Salo       <*>           |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa,
dorothea@...             |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_

Mae govannen, Beddain phain!
'Welcome, all Word-Smiths!'

I want to announce that my linguisitc website - "Gwaith-i-Pheddain" - has
been updated recently. In spite of Quenya and Sindarin compositions, you
will find there now many interesting links...
If you want to publish your Quenya, Sindarin etc compositions on my website
write to me - I will do it with pleasure!!!

Yours,

Ryszard Derdzinski
Galadhorn

maggot@...
http://www.kki.net.pl/~galadorn/language.htm

**************************************************************
Richard = GALADHORN < gala- 'prosperous, rich, blessed' (LR 357) + dorn
'stiff, tough, *hard' (WJ 413)

**************************************************************

--- "Ryszard Derdzinski" <maggot@...>
> wrote:
>Dear Lambengolmor,
<snip>
>Before I examine the grammar of the 'Verb Chart' I >must say (unfortunately)
>about my doubts concerning the copyright of this text. I believe Edward
>Kloczko didn't break the copyright law publishing the 'Verb Chart'. I mean I
>hope he has Tolkien Estate's and Marquette University's permission to
>publish the unpublished Tolkien's materials on the Web. I would be grateful
>if he informed us if it was legal or not! (I am not sure if examining the
>illegal publications is legal).
<snip>
>Yours,
>
>Ryszard Derdzinski
>Galadhorn

Some have questioned the propriatey of this request.  It certainly is a shame
that it has to be made but still it must.  We as scholars cannot go down paths
that have already been declared illegal.  We have a responsibility to be aware
of our actions even while putting scholarship first.

More importantly, in my opinion, is the fact that whatever the reality of this
case is someone will come in here with invectives about copywrite.  If we know
the situation beforehand we can respond inteligently instead of with knee-jerk
reactions.

My own opinion is that this seems totally licit.  Still there will be people who
question it's validity and, I think, everyone's life will be easier if answers
for them are prepared before hand.

Namrie,
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil

_____________________________________________________________
Email Powered by Everyone.net

At 17:11 18.5.2000 +0000, Javier Lorenzo wrote:
> > but I'we encountered a problem with UT :
> > the french translation is in 3 volumes and I'm not sure that the
>chapter
> > order had been kept. I've found almost all of the references (thanx
>to the
> > index I wrote when I was reading the book) but  some of  them are
>missing.
>
>Something similar happened with the Spanish edition, that was
>originally published in 3 volumes too.

Are Fr/Sp translations reliable otherwise?  Swedish translations bristle
with transcription errors &c, and even translation errors of less common
english words.



/BP

   B.Philip Jonsson  mailto:melroch@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen pennuid i phith!                \ \
     __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
     \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
     / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
    / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
   /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angelmiel\ \_____/ / a/ /_adar Merthol naun
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

le 18/05/00 19:11, Javier Lorenzo à javi_lorenzo@... a écrit :

>> I'm working on the french translation of Helge's Ardalambion
>> (http://ardalambion.fr.free.fr/), and I need a little help :
>
> Another translator!. This is really extending through the whole world
> (I'm one of the Spanish translators of Ardalambion ;)

Hi Javier !
Though I don't speak Spanish (unfortunately)I will visit  your site !

>> but I'we encountered a problem with UT :
>> the french translation is in 3 volumes and I'm not sure that the
>> chapter
>> order had been kept. I've found almost all of the references (thanx
>> to the
>> index I wrote when I was reading the book) but  some of  them are
>> missing.
>
> Something similar happened with the Spanish edition, that was
> originally published in 3 volumes too.
>
>> Could anybody give tell me to which chapters of UT the following
>> words
>> belong, and where (beginning, middle, end, or perhaps some
>> informations to
>> locate them easily) ?
>>
>> aranel (UT:434)
>> ondo (UT:459)
>> sarnië (UT:463)
>
> These three words are found in the Name Index, located at the end of
> the book, under the entries _Emerwen_, _Ondosto_ and _Serni_
> respectively. But, in the original Spanish edition, this Name Index
> wasn't published (perhaps something similar with the French edition?)

Unfortunately, this is the case... This name index have not been published !

>> Úrimë (UT:302)
>
> It appears in the Third Part (the Thrid Age), chapter "Cirion and
> Eorl", section "(iii) Cirion and Eorl", between the section beginning
> and the Cirion's Oath in Quenya.
>
> Javier Lorenzo
>
Thank you very much Javier, and also to Bjorn Sandberg & Marcus Smith (who
answered to my question also) !

Aiya!

   Is there anything more about Avarin in the unpublished material?

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo

Andreas Johansson wrote:

>But I actuallay had something slightly more relevant to say. I've been
>thinking I should ask for ages, but not come around to it until now; what do
>this "WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS / WRAIQS NU IST" that Mr Salo adds to his
>messages mean? It looks like Gothic to me, is that correct?

    It's a Gothicization of the "very ancient Germanic" phrase that "came
through" to Arundel Lowdham in Tolkien's unfinished story _The Notion Club
Papers_.  It appears in that story was "westra lage wegas rehtas, wraikwas
nu isti": to the west lay a straight way, it is now crooked."  All of the
words have recorded cognates in Gothic, except for _westra_; for "west" the
Gothic Bible uses _sagqs_ "sinking down", i.e. occident. (Cf. Quenya
nuumen, from the root NDU "go down").  But since other Germanic languages
have the same direction words, Gothic probably also used the stems
*naurth-, *sunth-, *aust-, *wist-.
   The changes are pretty minor: reduction or elimination of final syllables
in polysyllabic words (-as > -s, lage > lag, isti > ist); change of short e
to i (westra > wistr, wegas > wigs); and change of that i back to e
(spelled ai) before h (also r, hw, though not in this example), so rehtas >
*rihts > raihts.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Helge Fauskanger wrote:

>** If we try to translate "I can eat glass; it doesn't hurt me", the main
>problem is that we don't have a good verb "can".

    It seems possible that in the Thror's Map sentence "neledh neledhi gar
godrebh" that _gar_ means "is able": i.e. (a group of) three to-go-in can
together-through.  That would make it 'conflict' (perhaps) with gar- "hold,
have possess"; though maybe the semantic disagreement is not that great
either.

Difficult to translate "it doesn't hurt me" directly since
>we don't have a certain accusative pronoun "me", only _im_ "I"
>(nominative), _nÌn_ "my" (genitive) and _anim_ "for me" (dative).

    What about "a tiro nin, Fanuilos" "O watch over me, Snow-white"?

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Andreas Johansson wrote:

> Interlinear with comments:
>
> _Neta maanya_
> "get-imperative hand-my"
> (not too happy with this, but can't find a better word for "take")

**Try _mapa_ "grasp!, seize!".

> _ar olelyuvalve_
> "and together-walk-will-we[dual]"
> (any better way to express "together" than the _o-_-prefix?)

**Maybe dual itself indicates "together"...
Or what about _ar yuuyo lelyuvalve/vantuvalve_ "and both we
will go/walk"?

> _tyelenna Lúmelvo_
> "end-to time-our[dual]-of"

**I think it should be _tyeldenna_; _tyel_ is a short form of _tyelde_.


Ales Bican

--
**i've seen the light in the misty skies oh yeah (sunscreem, secrets)

le 19/05/00 13:09, BP Jonsson à bpj@... a écrit :

> At 17:11 18.5.2000 +0000, Javier Lorenzo wrote:
>>> but I'we encountered a problem with UT :
>>> the french translation is in 3 volumes and I'm not sure that the
>> chapter
>>> order had been kept. I've found almost all of the references (thanx
>> to the
>>> index I wrote when I was reading the book) but  some of  them are
>> missing.
>>
>> Something similar happened with the Spanish edition, that was
>> originally published in 3 volumes too.
>
> Are Fr/Sp translations reliable otherwise?  Swedish translations bristle
> with transcription errors &c, and even translation errors of less common
> english words.
>
> /BP
>
> B.Philip Jonsson  mailto:melroch@...

The french translations are not very reliable, and I think that all the
french people who try to study Elvish will agree with me...
The translators or the editorsoften forget index or Appendix (I only know
one Edition of LotR in French where the Appendix are translated in their
integrality). How can they judge arbitrary of what is important or not in a
book ? And what about the respect due to the writer ?

Namárië !

Toko

Hi Lambendili and lambengolmor !

This is the time for me to try my first phrases in Quenya, so I hope you
will be indulgent ! Note that these "poor" phrases are not supposed to be a
poem ! I only tried to make few basic phrases...

The sentences in English :

Hard and long is the path to the kowlegde of the Eldalië's tongues.
I listen to the Loremasters of Tongues like a child listening to the words
of the old Noldor.
Sweet to my ears is the song of the wind in the tree's foliages.
Branches in flower are like a dream to my eyes.

My attempt of translation in Quenya :

Norna ar anda ná i mallë ingolenna lambion Eldaliéva.
Hláran i Lambengolmor ve hína hlárala quettar enwinar Noldorion.
Lissë ná lindë súrion olassiessen aldariva lárnyant.
Olwar lossëar nár ve olos héndunyant.

Interlinear

_Norna ar anda ná i mallë ingolenna lambion Eldaliéva. _
"hard and long is the path to-knowledge of (the) tongues of (the) Eldalië"
(don't know if the locative fits with this meaning...)

_Hláran i Lambengolmor ve hína hlárala quettar enwinar Noldorion. _
"I hear the Loremasters-of-Tongues like (a) child hear-ing[past participle]
words old of-Sages"
(I didn't found a word for "listen" so I took "hear". I wondered if it was
possible to cnstruct another form with  _man_ ("who") between  _hína_  and
_hlára_ "a child who hear"  ?)

_Lissë ná lindë súrion olassiessen aldariva lárnyant._
"sweet is song of-wind in-foliages of-trees ears-my-[dat. dual]"
(very unsure with _lárnyant_ "ears")

_Olwar lossëar nár ve olos héndunyant._
"branches in-flower are like (a) dream eyes-my-[dat. dual.]"
(is _lossëar_ a right compound ? I tried to add an adjectival affix to
_lossë_ "flower". What about the stress on  _hén_ ?)

I hope you will forgive my mistakes and help me to progress on the "path to
knowledge of Eldarin tongues" !!!

Namárië

Toko



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:35 20.5.2000 -0600, David Salo wrote:
>Helge Fauskanger wrote:
>
> >** If we try to translate "I can eat glass; it doesn't hurt me", the main
> >problem is that we don't have a good verb "can".
>
>    It seems possible that in the Thror's Map sentence "neledh neledhi gar
>godrebh" that _gar_ means "is able": i.e. (a group of) three to-go-in can
>together-through.  That would make it 'conflict' (perhaps) with gar- "hold,
>have possess"; though maybe the semantic disagreement is not that great
>either.

Actually the semantics are close enough that it can be the same
word!  Thought: can _gar_ be KAR 'make' with lenition?  Cf. English 'make it'.

> >Difficult to translate "it doesn't hurt me" directly since
> >we don't have a certain accusative pronoun "me", only _im_ "I"
> >(nominative), _nÌn_ "my" (genitive) and _anim_ "for me" (dative).
>
>    What about "a tiro nin, Fanuilos" "O watch over me, Snow-white"?

Something like 'it doesn't hurt *in* me, then?  I can imagine a development
where all direct objects are expressed by preposition+dative phrases, but
would there be anything to suggest that this was actually the case in S.,
save our lack of information?




/BP

   B.Philip Jonsson  mailto:melroch@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
              A h-ammen pennuid i phith!                \ \
     __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
     \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
     / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
    / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
   /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angelmiel\ \_____/ / a/ /_adar Merthol naun
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)