Here is a thought from out of nowhere:



Are the Tolkein languages considered 'dead' languages, capable of

expressing new, current thoughts dealing with concepts know to the

elves, dwarves, etc, but not capable of expressing thoughts dealing with

concepts unknown to them?



I see translations of 'newer' poetry (and new compositions) but they all

tend to deal with beauty, life and death, and personal relationships.

Some elves, dwarves, etc must have built wagons and carts, windmills and

barns, etc and made horse harness and engaged in various other crafts.

So there should be some way for the language to handle such concepts, as

well as the simple commercial language of buying a cabbage and a can of

peas.  If the languages are 'living' languages they should also be

capable of dealing with newer concepts and items, such as translations

of a text on motorcycle maintenance, discussions of the corporate

structure of a mutual fund company, and technical manuals on computers

and programming.



Just a thought.  Play with it or ignore it.



Mike K.

Michael Kimball <michael@...> wrote:

f the languages are 'living' languages they should also be

capable of dealing with newer concepts and items, such as translations

of a text on motorcycle maintenance, discussions of the corporate

structure of a mutual fund company, and technical manuals on computers

and programming.



Just a thought. Play with it or ignore it.



Mike K.



well, its an interesting subject to discuss....



as for Quenya, it's the high tongue and the tongue of lore by conception....



as a tongue of lore, if u can make up the appropriate terms maybe u could write

technical manuals:))



as for cabbage: only if it is emphasised on in some myth of the days of yore;)

or maybe some special healing recipe......



as far as i know, sindarin was of "daily use" but i dont believe it's vocabulary

is large enough to handle those subjects either



so we can hardly find any way to describe modern things nowadays because there

are no words for "skyscraper" "computer" or "website" in those languages, and as

they are a part of the "culture" that Tolkien created along with his mythoes and

stories, writers tend to stick to his style and his examples....



something of this kind



really a great subject



nai Isil siluva tielyanna



Celene







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kimball <michael@k...> wrote:

If the languages are 'living' languages they should also be

> capable of dealing with newer concepts and items, such as

translations

> of a text on motorcycle maintenance, discussions of the corporate

> structure of a mutual fund company, and technical manuals on

computers

> and programming.



What and where is the point? Could anyone here imagine Sindarin,

Quenya and other prof's languages spoken in ME being used for let's

say manual for a new BMW version 6? Me absolutely not. Is anybody

thinking of coming out with a manual to a PC or Mac in latin? Well,

theoretically yes, but the person probably knows it is a pure

nonsense.



I don't need to mention I personally can't look at Sindarin (or

Quenya) as a language for such kind of use. Cars, computers, TV,

phones, mobils... they influenced people in a way that we cannot be

even compared to peoples who lived in Middle-Earth. Just a little

thought came up my mind: one example of the development we've made

since the 19th century can be partially seen also in the LotR:

Saruman's bomb used in Helm's Deep battle. Do you see the parallel?:

Saruman=evil, bomb=evil, car=evil in a way that we cannot imagine

walking hundreds of miles in a week.. as people in ME did;

computer=evil in a way that I pass through an e-mail battle with my

employer about my salary instead of pure talking (the main

communication method in ME); TV=evil in a way that children are not

educated and trained by humans anymore (or Elves, Dwarfs etc. as they

were in ME); mobils are evil in a way that I am getting an SMS

birthday congratulation instead of a lovely handwritten postcard or a

letter; and concerning phones, these are I think comparable to

palantires, lovely instruments!



Maybe I don't express precisly as I would like to but I hope you got

my point. I don't lament on our age in general. I just have a never-

ever-possible-to-be-realized wish....



Suilad,

Lucy

--- Calwen Rudh <calwen.rudh@...> wrote:

> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kimball

> <michael@k...> wrote:

> If the languages are 'living' languages they should

> also be

<snip>



> What and where is the point? Could anyone here

> imagine Sindarin,

> Quenya and other prof's languages spoken in ME being

> used for let's

> say manual for a new BMW version 6? Me absolutely

> not. <snip>



On the other hand (just on a sidenote to this) AFAIK

the Vatican recently issued a dictionary of newly

formed words in Latin to cover such modern-day things

as a washing machine etc. that could not be present in

Latin as it has been preserved over the centuries.



What's the bottom line of this? Nothing much - it just

demonstrates IMHO that any language can be a living

language if people choose to communicate in it.



Shine on,



=====

Thomas Ferencz



"Síve or, tambe nún."



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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Atwe <percival64@y...> wrote:

> --- Calwen Rudh <calwen.rudh@s...> wrote:



> > What and where is the point? Could anyone here

> > imagine Sindarin,

> > Quenya and other prof's languages spoken in ME being

> > used for let's

> > say manual for a new BMW version 6? Me absolutely

> > not. <snip>

>

> On the other hand (just on a sidenote to this) AFAIK

> the Vatican recently issued a dictionary of newly

> formed words in Latin to cover such modern-day things

> as a washing machine etc. that could not be present in

> Latin as it has been preserved over the centuries.

>

> What's the bottom line of this? Nothing much - it just

> demonstrates IMHO that any language can be a living

> language if people choose to communicate in it.



How true! It only depends on that a language is used i.e.

there are people willing to express themselves using it as

a tool:

E.g. look what had been accomplished with an ancient,

ancient tongue like Hebrew in our modern days, and

old Chinese formed for modern use. Yiddish, a formerly

little estimated tongue, had become a wonderful medium

able to express everything, even discuss philosophical

topics.

In our modern days, languages like Lakota (etc.) had to

deal with "money" (mazaská), "fire arms" (mazawakan),

"automobiles" (iyecinkiyanke), "coffee beans" (pejuta sapa),

"coffee" (wakalyapi), "photograph" (iteowapi), "phonograph"

(omazape) etc.

I don't understand why people dealing with Elvish should

not be able to accomplish this as well, as long as they

want it to do and refrain from regarding these tongues

as sacred fossiles too holy to be touched and dealt with

for 'profane' purposes.



Suil, Edhil

>  What and where is the point? Could anyone here

>  imagine Sindarin,

>  Quenya and other prof's languages spoken in ME being

>  used for let's

>  say manual for a new BMW version 6? Me absolutely

>  not. <snip>



  Of course, Quenya and Sindarin as they are could not be used to

express complicated ideas from this age. These languages were created

by one man (with a few contributions), and was not developed over

time by a community of speakers or passed down from generation to

generation. They were also created for a fictional world to express

fictional ideas.



  However, if a community of speakers chose to use Sindarin on a daily

basis, it would evolve into a workable language within that

community.



  Nobody likes to fiddle with Tolkiens languages as written, but if

this were a true spoken language that you learned from childhood, it

would be far more expansive and better translated from one language

to another. New words would be introduced to express new concepts and

ideas.



  As it stands, Sindarin and Quenya will always be as they are, as

they were written by Tolkien. That is part of the magic of these

languages and what draws people to them.



  Freedom

At 12:13 4.9.2003 +0000, Calwen Rudh wrote:



>Saruman's bomb used in Helm's Deep battle. Do you see the parallel?:

>Saruman=evil, bomb=evil, car=evil in a way that we cannot imagine



Things are not evil, only the uses we Men make of them!



"Bombs" can be used to build tunnels and canals, which most people

agree are Good Things.  Even atomic bombs could be used for a good

purpose, namely to smash giant asteroids threatening to hit Earth

(remember what happened to the dinosaurs!)  Mass private motorism

certainly is evil, but motors can be put to good uses, making it

possible for the disabled to get around, and sparing Men and beasts

from hard work that breaks the body.  Needless to say other fuels than

petroleum should be used...



ObElvish, has someone noticed that the Q. compound _palantír_ is

precisely analogous to German _Fernseher_?







/BP 8^)

--

B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__

                 A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \

      __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /

      \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /

      / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /

     / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Gaestan ~\_  // /__/ // /__/ /

    /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\

Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun

   ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~

|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||

"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> ObElvish, has someone noticed that the Q. compound

> _palantír_ is

> precisely analogous to German _Fernseher_?



Indeed. And to _television_ :-)



Shine on,



=====

Thomas Ferencz



"Síve or, tambe nún."



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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, BP Jonsson <bpj@m...> wrote:

> At 12:13 4.9.2003 +0000, Calwen Rudh wrote:

>

> Things are not evil, only the uses we Men make of them!



Bingo.



> "Bombs" can be used to build tunnels and canals, which most people

> agree are Good Things. [...] Mass private motorism

> certainly is evil, but motors can be put to good uses, making it

> possible for the disabled to get around, and sparing Men and beasts

> from hard work that breaks the body. [...]



Indeed. That's why I put "...evil in a way..." everywhere.



Lucy

Industrialization and technology in general is viewed as evil in

Tolkien's works. After Saruman's fall, Nan Curunir was turned (for all

intents and purposes) into an industrial park. "Progress" was being made,

and it destroyed the nature of things nearby. Tolkien, while he hated

allegory in "all it's forms", makes a subconcious point here in the

battle of the Ents at Isengard. Nature will outlast us all, and there's a

reason that it shares the same linguistic root as "natural", the way

things "should be", if you will. In conclusion, Industrialization=bad,

Nature, the ancient ways=good.



On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 12:13:00 -0000 "Calwen Rudh" <calwen.rudh@...>

writes:

> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kimball <michael@k...> wrote:

[...]

> Saruman=evil, bomb=evil, car=evil in a way that we cannot imagine

> walking hundreds of miles in a week.. as people in ME did;

[...]

> Indeed. And to _television_ :-)



  With the exception of the fact that 'television' is a compound of two

different languages, as well.



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Mitchell Willie wrote:



>> Indeed. And to _television_ :-)



>  With the exception of the fact that 'television' is a compound of two

> different languages



Yes: "telescope" would be more due.



;-)



Lukas

But it is derivered from Latin.



--

Dannen Telpeloth



6 wrzeœnia 2003, 16:22:23, Mitchell teithant:





>> Indeed. And to _television_ :-)



MW>  With the exception of the fact that 'television' is a compound of two

MW> different languages, as well.

Actually from both Latin and Greek: Greek _tele-_ < _tele_ 'far off'

+ Latin _visio -onis_ 'sight'.



- P.S. Tikka



> But it is derivered from Latin.

> --

> Dannen Telpeloth

>

> 6 wrzeœnia 2003, 16:22:23, Mitchell teithant:

>

> >> Indeed. And to _television_ :-)

>

> MW>  With the exception of the fact that 'television' is a

> MW> compound of two different languages, as well.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Telpeloth <Grapef@d...> wrote:

>

> But it is derivered from Latin.

>

> --

> Dannen Telpeloth



Not really.  _tele_ is Greek, while _vision_ is Latin.

Hence my comparing it only to the German.



/BP (Melroch)



> 6 wrzeœnia 2003, 16:22:23, Mitchell teithant:

>

>

> >> Indeed. And to _television_ :-)

>

> MW>  With the exception of the fact that 'television' is a compound

of two

> MW> different languages, as well.