am 26.04.00 14:32 Uhr schrieb Edward Kloczko unter

106065.2071@...:



>

>

> "Javier Lorenzo" <javi_lorenzo@...> wrote :

>

>> In The Book of Lost Tales 1, and the Qenya Lexicon, we found _mavar_

>> as the Quenya word ford 'shepher', but later material seems to

>> indicate that this term was rejected by Tolkien. The clues are found

>> in The Unfinished Tales.

>

> The word was _not_ rejected as _such_ (Tolkien never crossed it over in his

> Qenyaqeytsa) mavar is part of the Qenya or better _Eldarissa_ tongue of the

> "Book of Lost Tales" period or tradition if you like. A language close but

> _not_ identical to Quenya used by Elves and Men in the Lord of the Rings.

> You can still _use_ mavar if you like.

>

>> In 'A Description of the Island of Nuumenor', is said that there was

>> a part of Nuumenor called _Emerie_, as the main region of the

>> Shepherds. And in 'Aldarion and Erendis', we found _Emerwen Aranel_

>> (a name of Erendis) meaning 'Shepherd(ness) Princess'. We can isolate

>> an element _emer-_, and by adding an agental suffix, we could obtain

>> _emerno_, _emermo_ or _emerindo_ as possible words for 'shepherd'.

>

> Emerwen Aranel is not a Quenya name but is _Sindarin_ so no Quenya agental

> suffix can be added to it.

>

> It seems to be a f. name composed of emer + gwen => 'Shepherdness'.

> *Emerdir (also with possible distinct form to avoid r--r > *Emeldir >

> *Emellir) would be a masculin form as a _name_ but not as a noun

> (shepherd).

>

> The etymolgy of S. "emer" is obscure. The word for sheep in Quenya was

> _maama_ (WJ) (cf. the name Maamandil in UT). The CE word *maamaa would

> become much too "small" S *maw or NS *moom, so probabaly a new one was

> invented by the Sindar.

>

> Edouard Kloczko



But _emerie_ is Quenya. So _emer_ must be present in Quenya too. On formal

grounds, I think, _emerwen_ cd be Quenya too, cdn't it ? It wd perhaps more

properly mean "sheep-girl" and only secondarily "shepherdess". Simply adding

an agental suffix to _emer_ "sheep" perhaps isn't fortunate, because _emer_

is not a verb. The person in question shd not be a "sheeper" ;-). So, maybe

_emertirmo_ ? _-mo_ etc. can of course be understood as denoting "associated

with, possessing" etc., i.e., in that case not be used as an agental ending.



A last note on ?S. _emer_. Shdn't it be *_ever_ in Sindarin ? (Cf. S. rhoval

< *raamalee).

On etymology: Perhaps the term was borrowed by the Elves from some mannish

culture where sheep were an important economical factor. Cf. Akkadian

(Assyrian dialect) _emmeru_ "sheep, ram" and Hebrew _immar_ "sheep, ram"

etc.



David Kiltz

>>[Edward Kloczko]:

>> The word was _not_ rejected as _such_ (Tolkien never crossed it

over in his

>> Qenyaqeytsa) mavar is part of the Qenya or better _Eldarissa_

tongue of the

>> "Book of Lost Tales" period or tradition if you like. A language

close but

>> _not_ identical to Quenya used by Elves and Men in the Lord of the

Rings.



Perhaps it would be better to say _mavar_ seems not to be quite

appropiate in mature Quenya (LotR-style)



>> Emerwen Aranel is not a Quenya name but is _Sindarin_ so no Quenya

agental

>> suffix can be added to it.

>>

>> The etymolgy of S. "emer" is obscure. The word for sheep in Quenya

was

>> _maama_ (WJ) (cf. the name Maamandil in UT). The CE word *maamaa

would

>> become much too "small" S *maw or NS *moom, so probabaly a new one

was

>> invented by the Sindar.



>[Davi Salo, post #2589]

>    If the words _Emerie_ and _Emerwen_ contain the same element

(which I do

> not doubt), then _emer-_ must be Quenya, as _Emerie_ cannot

possibly be

> Sindarin (the -ie ending is impossible in Sindarin).  Emer- cannot

be a

> Sindarin element cognate with Quenya Emer-, since -m- > -v- in

Sindarin (so

> Emer- should become !Emher- > !Ever-).  The element -wen exists in

Quenya

> as well as Sindarin; cf. Earwen, daughter of Olwe (this is not a

Telerin

> form, but at worst a Quenyarization of !Gaiaruen/!Aiaruen) and

Nerwen,

> Galadriel's amilesse.  Aranel is also plausible Quenya (probably a

short

> form of !Aranelle; cf. rielle > -riel in Galadriel.)  It is not

implausible

> that Numenoreans should refer to Ancalime (already named in Quenya)

with a

> Quenya name, any more than that Hallatan of Hyarastorni should take

the nom

> d'amour _Maamandil_, without surprising Ancalime! (Cf. Unfinished

Tales, p.

> 209).



I agree. Furthermore, "the personal names, and specially the official

and public names, of all members of the royal house, and of the Line

of Elros in general, were given in Quenya form" (Unfinished Tales, p.

216). But then, why didn't Ancalime suspect of an stranger who had

given himself a Quenya name? We know that Hallatan belonged to the

Line of Elros, cf. 'The Line of Elros' in UT.



Finally, it seems obvious that I have a little trouble with the

words 'shepherd' and 'shepherdess', which I misspelled in my first

post, appearing as 'sheperd', 'sheper' and 'sheperdness'. Does

anybody know where I can get a XXL-size keyboard? ;)



Javier Lorenzo (alias _Andamundo lepsi_)

"Javier Lorenzo" <javi_lorenzo@...> wrote :



>In The Book of Lost Tales 1, and the Qenya Lexicon, we found _mavar_

>as the Quenya word ford 'shepher', but later material seems to

>indicate that this term was rejected by Tolkien. The clues are found

>in The Unfinished Tales.



The word was _not_ rejected as _such_ (Tolkien never crossed it over in his

Qenyaqeytsa) mavar is part of the Qenya or better _Eldarissa_ tongue of the

"Book of Lost Tales" period or tradition if you like. A language close but

_not_ identical to Quenya used by Elves and Men in the Lord of the Rings.

You can still _use_ mavar if you like.



>In 'A Description of the Island of Nuumenor', is said that there was

>a part of Nuumenor called _Emerie_, as the main region of the

>Shepherds. And in 'Aldarion and Erendis', we found _Emerwen Aranel_

>(a name of Erendis) meaning 'Shepherd(ness) Princess'. We can isolate

>an element _emer-_, and by adding an agental suffix, we could obtain

>_emerno_, _emermo_ or _emerindo_ as possible words for 'shepherd'.



Emerwen Aranel is not a Quenya name but is _Sindarin_ so no Quenya agental

suffix can be added to it.



It seems to be a f. name composed of emer + gwen => 'Shepherdness'.

*Emerdir (also with possible distinct form to avoid r--r > *Emeldir >

*Emellir) would be a masculin form as a _name_ but not as a noun

(shepherd).



The etymolgy of S. "emer" is obscure. The word for sheep in Quenya was

_maama_ (WJ) (cf. the name Maamandil in UT). The CE word *maamaa would

become much too "small" S *maw or NS *moom, so probabaly a new one was

invented by the Sindar.



Edouard Kloczko