Teithant Donna Mair:
>Eru: the 'er' is pronounced 'eer', the 'u' is like the
>english 'brute'.Is
the 'eer'
>pronounced like 'ear' and 'steer' etc? So 'Eer-oo' >
is how it would be pronounced

No. Sindarin 'e' is always lik the 'e' in E 'bed'. So 'EH-roo'

>Can: The 'a' is long like 'cane;

S long 'á' ( or 'â') is like the 'a' in E 'father'. The sound of 'a'
in 'cane' is spelt 'ei' in S. _Cân_ is pronounced rather like E 'con'
in American accent.

>vanadh: 'v' is like english 'v', 'a' is long, 'n' is
>like english 'n', 'a' is long,

Same note about 'a' above.

nin: the 'i' is a long vowel, so 'nine' ?

No. S long 'í' (or 'î') is pronounced like the 'i' in machine or the
'ee' in E 'seek'.

>Eer-oo cane vane-athe nine?

EH-roo cahn VAH-nahð neen. (This is without going into lengthy
discussion about the stressed monosyllables marked with an accent.)

Cuio mae, Danny.

At 6/27/03 12:25 PM , Jerry Aurand(Fillan) wrote:
>"I've been trying to translate some things and I wanted to know if the
>word of [?] has a translation in Quenya. Is there actually a translation
>or do you just put the couple words together without of and when you
>translate it it just appears?"
>
>I don't know if English is not your native language, but the difficulty I
>have in understanding exactly what it is you wish to know makes it seem
>possible that such is the case.

I think it can be clarified simply by adding a few punctuation marks:

>I've been trying to translate some things and I wanted to know if the word
>"of" [?] has a translation in Quenya. Is there actually a translation, or
>do you just put the couple words together without "of", and when you
>translate it, it just appears?

Does that make it more understandable?

                                                  --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"You wear guilt/Like shackles on your feet;
   Like a halo in reverse..."
                                                  --Depeche Mode,
                                                   "Halo"

Teithant Gildor Inglorion:
>well.. caan is pronunced like english verb
>can.. a's in Sindarin are always pronunced somehow like a in
>'can'

I can't agree there. Tolkien specifically states in RGEO that "Short a
should have the modern E. [æ]  as in 'cat', the same sound (shortened) as in
'ah'; both vowel in _aglar_, for instance, should be the same." Therefore,
S. short 'a' is a shortened version of 'ah', and long 'a' is as in 'ah' or
'father' ... never like the 'a' in 'cat' or 'can'.

Since Donna's pronunciation confusion seems to be confined to the vowels,
here's a brief rundown on Sindarin vowels and diphthongs:

short 'a' = 'a' in 'father', but shorter
long 'á' = same sound, but held longer
short 'e' = 'e' in 'bed'
long 'é' = same sound, but held longer
short 'i' = 'i' in 'sick'
long 'í' = 'ee' in 'see'
short 'o' = 'o' in 'ford'
long 'ó' = same sound, but held longer
short 'u' = 'oo' in 'foot'
long 'ú' = 'oo' in 'boot'
short 'y' = 'u' in French 'lune'
long 'ý' = same sound, but held longer

'ai'= 'ai' in 'aisle'
'au' = 'au' in 'Sauerkraut'
'ei' = 'ei' in 'eight'
'ui' = 'ui' in 'pursuing', but pronounced in one syllable

'ae' and 'oe' don't have close equivalents in standard English, though we
hear both these sounds in the American Deep South. Tolkien suggests
pronouncing them like the 'ai' in 'aisle' and the 'oi' in 'oil' to be
suitable substitutes.

Cuio mae, Danny.

_________________________________________________________________
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From every example I've seen "a" is pronounced like the "a"
in "father" - a "short" sound, not the "long" sound as in "cane"...

"Eru" - "e" is pronounced like the "e" in "pet" - therefore I think
it's closer to sounding like "airoo" (i.e. the english word "air"
+ "oo".

"i" is prounounced like the "i" in "machine"...

You can check the G-I-P or other sites for more info!

Hopefully I'm right on these pronounciations!



--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, firstchoicesafety@t... wrote:
> i figure it is time to learn how to properly pronunciate my
sindarin tattoo
[... quote trim...]

The word "of" would be rendered either by the genitive or possessive
case or even in ablative...
See http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quenya.htm#Heading7 for further
information about the cases.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, HanyouDreamer@a... wrote:
> I've been trying to translate some things and I wanted to know if
the word of
> has a translation in Quenya. Is there actually a translation or do
you just
> put the couple words together without of and when you translate it
it just
> appears?
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've decided that we have completely and utterly mishmashed and butchered our
own language as english speaking people - no wonder they say english is one of
the hardest languages to learn by others. And then we have youngsters who
shorten down words to the point of using half the word or one syllable.

I need to go back to school, learn proper grammar, and YES, get myself some
tapes of finnish and other languages!

paul and elath,

thank you for your help, and paul, didnt mean my first email to come off so
snooty or defensive....it has been a rough day - it wont happen again :-)

Gildor wrote:

> try to think Italian or Spanish when it cmes to
> pronunce elvish

Or Serbian... we have the rule: "Write as you read and read as it is
written" This means "one letter - one sound"

Erufailon

Greetings,

HanyouDreamer@... wrote:
>... I wanted to know if the word of has a translation in Quenya. ...
elhath * <sp12@...>wrote:
In the sense "a friend of mine", "a trumpet of mine" (sic!),
we use the genitive or possessive CASE,
In the sense "about, concerning", I think I'd use the genitive
case
(e.g. in "I told a story of an elf"; ne?) or the preposition _pa_, _pá_
(VT44:26/PPQ).

As I understand the Genitive (partitive-derivative) case and Possessive
(adjective-possessive) case from H. Fauskanger's Quenya Course when ownership is
denoted ("a friend of mine" or "a trumpet of mine")  I think one would use the
possessive case -va, -wa, -iva.  This case also seems to carry the idea that
something is mine.  A continuing kind of ownership.  The Genitive I take to mean
something like "having come from", "originated with".  In the Quenya Course H.
Fauskanger uses the example "roma Oromeo" meaning Orome's horn- the horn that
was/came from Orome and "roma Oromeva" also meaning Orome's horn but- the that
is/belongs to Orome.

But what about "Cicero of Rome"? Ablative?

I would think one could use the ablative (Cicero coming from Rome) or maybe the
genitive (Cicero of (originating in)Rome)

Hope this is helpful,
Eruantano



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aiya!

Friday, June 27, 2003, 1:17:22 AM, Erunámo Londëoronti wrote:

EL> I'm having trouble understanding the words _níra_ and
EL> _nirmë_. They are glossed as "Will (as a potential or
EL> faculty)" and "An act of will, exercise of will, or
EL> "the act or action of _níra_"
EL> But I don't understand the meaning of them anyway.
EL> What does "as a potential or faculty" mean?

It is simple. Each Incarnate has his own will (that's why it is called
Free or Independent Will in contrast with certain Morgoth's puppets in
whom Morgoth's will operates) - that is the potential ability to
choose or make decisions. That is _níra_. It can be imagined as a
part, a faculty of one's mind. Now, every decision one makes is an act
of his will. Such a decision is called _nírmë_, and it can be glossed
'will', too, but in a sense "I want it to be so, this is my will".

EL> What's the difference between _níra_, _nirmë_,_indo_
EL> and _indómë_?
_indómë_ is the will of Eru, a settled character.

_indo_ is a problem, because it came through various stages of
interpretationm some of them are clashing with the aforementioned
níra-nirmë system.


Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo


: raavannar vantar · tuile loctuva : i yulma carne miru quanta peltuvar :

Aiya,

Thank you for the answer, now I understand it a whole
lot better! It was what I from the beginning thought
it would be, but I got very confused by the
description that I wondered about and when _indo_ came
into the picture.

The reason I asked this is because I formed an alias
for my daughter as "strong-willed" as in a more
positive sense of obstinate _taryalanco_. I then came
up with *tulcanirmë_ which sounded as a really good
name. Then the confusion began and I formed
*tancäindë_ instead but I didn't think it sounded as
good as *tulcanirmë_

Do you think *tulcanirmë_ would work as a name or is
it off track from what I mean with "strong-willed"?
And should I go with *tancäindë_ instead if that's
more correctly describing "strong-willed"?

Namárie
Erunámo Londëoronti

--- Boris Shapiro <elenhil@...> wrote:
> It is simple.
> Each Incarnate has his own will[...] that is the
> potential ability to choose or make decisions.
> That is _níra_.
> every decision one makes is an act
> of his will. Such a decision is called _nírmë_,[...]

Please forgive me.  I read your post in somebody else's distillation of what you
wrote in their reply.  It was really chopped up.  Afterwards I saw your original
(my e-mail is read most recent first) and realized what it was you were asking.
--
__________________________________________________________
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A great deal of the problem in reconciling English spelling and pronumciation
(aside from all the borrowed words that keep much of their original orthography)
is that our spelling conventions were adopted before some important
sound-changes, particularly among the vowels, took place in English.  The Great
Vowel Shift (http://alpha.furman.edu/~mmenzer/gvs/what.htm) wrecked havoc with
the fact that, when first adapted, the spelling of English reflected
pronunciation as well as in any other European language.

Other sites about the GVS:

http://www.unifon.org/vowel-shift.html;
http://guweb2.gonzaga.edu/faculty/wheeler/great_vowel_shift.html;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/hub/A964578

It wasn't out of some intended perversity on the part of our ancestors, but a
historical accident.

If you think English spelling is maddening, you should see the mess that you
find in Gaelic, particularly before there were some spelling reforms in the late
19th and early 20th Cs.  Yes, folks, once it was worse! 
http://www.geocities.com/dan_tender_blur/gaelspellpron.html;
http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/roradh.htm
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Teithant Erufailon:
>Gildor wrote:
> >try to think Italian or Spanish when it cmes
> >to pronunce elvish
>Or Serbian... we have the rule: "Write as you read
>and read as it is written" This means "one letter
>- one sound"
>Erufailon

However that is not the case with Sindarin as it is written with Latin
letters. The letter 'f' can represent two sounds: [f], [v]. 'ng' can
represent two sounds: [ñ], [ñg]. 'h' can represent three sounds:
[h], [x], [ç]. 'i' can be either a vowel or the consonant [j]. Also,
long and short 'i' (and probably 'u' as well) have different qualities
as well as quantities. So to say "one letter - one sound" about Sindarin
is misleading and inaccurate.

Cuio mae, Danny.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "D. Daniel Andriës" <uialdil@h...>
wrote:
[...]
> short 'y' = 'u' in French 'lune'
> long 'ý' = same sound, but held longer
[...]
> 'ae' and 'oe' don't have close equivalents in standard English,
though we
> hear both these sounds in the American Deep South. Tolkien suggests
> pronouncing them like the 'ai' in 'aisle' and the 'oi' in 'oil' to
be
> suitable substitutes.
>
> Cuio mae, Danny.

As far as I can remember, in Classical Latin pronunciation, the
combinations 'ae' and 'oe' are pronounced exactly the same as 'ai'
(aisle) and 'oi' (boy).

Also, I have a question.  In my sister's Latin dictionary, it lists
the 'y' vowel (Classical Pron.) as having the values of
German "Hütte" (short) and "über" (long).  Are these the same values
as Sindarin 'y?'  Also, I don't know German, so are the umlauted 'u's
equivalent to Old English 'y' and French 'lune?'

I have read that Sindarin 'y' is really a fronted 'u' (pronounce ee
with lips rounded).  Is that also what German umlauts do to their
respective vowel (is, for example, ö a fronted 'o')?

Thank you, and sorry for the slightly off-topic questions.

- John

Mae govannen;

  I'm doing an ogham poem in sindarin. If you could
help me a little, I would be thankfull. I'm seeking
some words for 1) pure
2) purification
3) teaching
4) fruits or berries
5) vision
6) saced

   Please, if you see things that needs corrections,
tell me where you get this. I need to know what are
your sources, to see your logic. (Don't translate the
first word of all sections, it is not even in quenya
or sindarin. It is the name of the ogham.)

Laer o Ogham (do I need to do a lenition or something?
To 'o' like that...seems incorrect to me. Could I say
'ogham laer'?)

Beth;
Hiril o toer;
Fain;
Le nach heriol ‘wain, gweneth.
Im anira ist lín.

Luis;
Alfirin;
Mith a caran;
Le nach beriol dan i luith, torthol.
Im anira ist lín.

Fearn;
Galadh o golwen;
Calen a baran;
Le nach beriol a ?
Im anira ist lín.

Saille;
Galadh o luithad;
Celair;
Le nach cened vi fuin, ŷr uin ithil, inu.
Im anira ist lín.

Nuin;
Galad aer uin ithryn;
Laeg;
Le nach ned’ardh a ed’ardh gwedhel.
Im anira ist lín.

Translation in english:

Beth,
Lady of the forest
White,
You are new beginning, virginity (I wanted the word
‘purification’)
I desire the knowledge of yours. (I wanted ‘teach-me
your wisdom’)

Luis,
Immortal (wish ‘berries of immortality’)
Grey and red
You are protection against spells, control.
I desire the knowledge of yours.

Fearn,
Tree of wise,
green and brown (wish ‘crimsom’)
You are protection and ? (wish ‘vision’).
I desire the knowledge of yours.

Saille,
Tree of enchantement,
brilliant,
You are seeing in the night, courses of the moon and
female (I wanted ‘female aspect’)
I desire the knowlege of yours.

Nuin,
holy tree of wizards,
fresh and green,
you are in-world and out-world bind.
I desire the knowledge of yours.


  Thank you all, and don't quite!


          Aranellë

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http://sbc.yahoo.com

At 6/27/03 06:23 PM , joe wrote:

>But what about "Cicero of Rome"? Ablative?
>
>I would think one could use the ablative (Cicero coming from Rome) or
>maybe the genitive (Cicero of (originating in)Rome)

I think the genitive -- _Cicero Romeo_ for the general "Cicero of Rome". I
think you'd use the ablative if you wanted to say, "Cicero, who just came
or is now coming from Rome" -- i.e., he's getting on a plane or something.

After all, Cicero of Rome (born in Rome) may not have come here *directly*
from Rome; he might have come by way of Naples, Kabul and Tokyo. (In which
case, perhaps _Cicero Romeo Tokyollo_ might be legitimate?)

                                                  --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"No sound to break, no moment clear
   When all the doubts are crystal clear;
   Crashing hard into the secret wind..."
                                                  --Peter Murphy,
                                                   "Cuts You Up"

1) pure: poica, manwa
2) purification: *poicala
3) teaching: *saita- "teach, make know"; verb derived from the stem SAY by
adding the common causative verbal ending -ta
4) fruits:  yávë  or berries: piucca
5) vision:   olor, maur
6) sacred:  aina, aira


I thought I saw you wanted a word for crimson: carnë, nasar, culda, culina, aira
(a homophone for one of the words meaning 'holy, sacred'),
--
__________________________________________________________
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Suilaid!!
I have some problems with the numbers when I want to write...
How can I say 21 or 78 or 313 or 7854 ??
I read a thing long ago.. 29th ---> neder-tadphaenui
Could it be?... 29 ---> neder-tadphaen ¿?¿??¿?
And why is tadphaen? I think it should be different... I remember
this from an article "Phonetics - SSG by Ryszard Derdzinski" It
says...
"Soft mutation
Known also as lenition (= 'softening'). It occurs:
·in compounds like Calenhad (calen + sad) or Elvellyn (El- + mellyn)"
"tad+paen" is a compound isn't it?...
Please somebody explain it to me... T_T

John wrote:

> As far as I can remember, in Classical Latin pronunciation, the
> combinations 'ae' and 'oe' are pronounced exactly the same as 'ai'
> (aisle) and 'oi' (boy).

Well, more or less. The final "i" sound was something between "i" and
"e", IIRC. (This is, BTW, why Romans transcribed Greek "komoidia" as
"comoedia" - form which our "commedy")

> Also, I have a question.  In my sister's Latin dictionary, it lists
> the 'y' vowel (Classical Pron.) as having the values of
> German "Hütte" (short) and "über" (long).  Are these the same values
> as Sindarin 'y?'  Also, I don't know German, so are the umlauted 'u's
> equivalent to Old English 'y' and French 'lune?'

Yes.

> I have read that Sindarin 'y' is really a fronted 'u' (pronounce ee
> with lips rounded).  Is that also what German umlauts do to their
> respective vowel (is, for example, ö a fronted 'o')?

Yes. "o umlaut" is a similar sound to French "bleu" or "fleur".

Lukas

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Aurand(Fillan)"
<aurandfillan@m...> wrote:
>
> 1) pure: poica, manwa
> 2) purification: *poicala
> 3) teaching: *saita- "teach, make know"; verb derived from the stem
SAY by adding the common causative verbal ending -ta
> 4) fruits:  yávë  or berries: piucca
> 5) vision:   olor, maur
> 6) sacred:  aina, aira

I think what he wants are the words in Sindarin...

Some words cannot be found in Sindarin, and I try to get some with
similar meanings.

1) pure: u'brestannen (u' + prestannen, unaffected)
2) purification
3) teaching: annad ist (giving knowledge)
4) fruits: ieiv (sg. iâf < *yabê < *yagwê), ievais (sg. iavas)
5) vision: nauth (thought), cened (seeing, sight), o^l(dream)
6) sacred: aer (holy)

Look forwards the others' opinion!
Suilad!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
New Site in Mandarin for my Beloved Sindarin:
             http://home.kimo.com.tw/michiru_benson/

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Aranelle E Labigni <enee_b@y...>
wrote:
>
>   Mae govannen;
>
>  I'm doing an ogham poem in sindarin. If you could
> help me a little, I would be thankfull. I'm seeking
> some words for 1) pure
> 2) purification
> 3) teaching
> 4) fruits or berries
> 5) vision
> 6) saced
>

There is a word for 'holy' - 'iaur'...

Teithant oselleruth:
>There is a word for 'holy' - 'iaur'...

_iaur_ doesn't mean 'holy'; it means 'old'. 'Holy' is _aer_.

Cuio mae, Danny.

>I think the genitive -- _Cicero Romeo_ for the general "Cicero of Rome". I
>think you'd use the ablative if you wanted to say, "Cicero, who just came
>or is now coming from Rome" -- i.e., he's getting on a plane or something.

Interesting point; do we have any attested examples of the Abl/All case used
with a noun???

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

teithant Leith

> I have some problems with the numbers when I want to
> write...
> How can I say 21 or 78 or 313 or 7854 ??

not much is known about elvish numerals from
Tolkien... one simple way to express number (and
possibly Tolkien would agree with it) is:
21: one two-tens
78: eight seven-tens
313: three ten three-hundreds
etc

> I read a thing long ago.. 29th ---> neder-tadphaenui
> Could it be?... 29 ---> neder-tadphaen ¿?¿??¿?

possibly

> And why is tadphaen? I think it should be
> different... I remember

it's not sure if it was *tatapain or *tatpain.. first
would produce lenition (tadbaen), second would produce
hard mutation like this (tadphaen or taphaen)

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Danny wrote:

>
> However that [having one letter per sound] is not the case with
> Sindarin as it is written with Latin
> letters. [...]

Isn't the same true of Quenya as it employs digrafs? For instance "th"
is said as [T] not as [th] and "ch" is said as [x] not [kh].

Suilad gwedyr ar gwethil,

Hello. I've just subscribed this list and I want to greet everyone and
introduce myself:) Im Telpeloth o menegroth:)

--
Dannen Telpeloth
mailto:Grapef@...
GG:1340992
kom. +48 691291184

Aiya!

Saturday, June 28, 2003, 11:22:08 AM, Erunámo Londëoronti wrote:


EL> Aiya,

EL> Thank you for the answer, now I understand it a whole
EL> lot better! It was what I from the beginning thought
EL> it would be, but I got very confused by the
EL> description that I wondered about and when _indo_ came
EL> into the picture.[...]

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo


: ulco ume i mine eldassen ar i neuna firimassen :

Hey, if anyone is interested, I am starting an MSN Quenya Study Group
for beginners. the address is http://groups.msn.com/QuenyaStudyGroup

Rimbecánu

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Rimbecánu wrote:
> Hey, if anyone is interested, I am starting an MSN Quenya Study
> Group for beginners. the address is
> http://groups.msn.com/QuenyaStudyGroup

Have you looked at the Quenya study group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quenya_study_group/ which has been in
operation for six months?

Elimloth

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elimloth" <draco@s...> wrote:
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Rimbecánu wrote:
> [...] I am starting an MSN Quenya Study Group for beginners.
> > http://groups.msn.com/QuenyaStudyGroup
>
> Have you looked at the Quenya study group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quenya_study_group/ [...]

The study group will be pretty much the same... it will just be for
MSN users as apposed to Yahoo...  I know quite a few people who won't
join yahoo so this is for them, and anyone like them...

Rimbecánu