--- Szofia <haldalasse@...> wrote:

Hi Szofia,

nice to say Hungarians on the list:-) I hope we will
also meet on my site: Aryoni Eldaron
(eldaryon.webmagazin.hu).

Best wishes,


=====
-----
Thomas Ferencz                "Suddenly it strikes you that they're moving into
range
                                            and Doctor Strange is always changing
size."

                                             (Pink Floyd: Cymbaline)

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--- Kai MacTane <kmactane@...> wrote:
> At 4/30/03 04:21 AM , Vendis wrote:
>
> >Maybe "altafoalyallo" (from your treasure) instead
> of "altafoalyasse"...
>
> Why not the better attested _harma_ for treasure?
> (From Appendix E.)

Besides, I don't really understand why he should stick
the adjective to the noun.


=====
-----
Thomas Ferencz                "Suddenly it strikes you that they're moving into
range
                                            and Doctor Strange is always changing
size."

                                             (Pink Floyd: Cymbaline)

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Thomas, I find the following translation on your site. Could you point
me to Tchitrec's  original here on Elfling? - Thanks - Edhil.

"Az Elfling nyelvlistán e tárgyban lezajlott megbeszélések rövid
összefoglalása. Szerző: Tchitrec. Fordította: Amanibhavam
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
Az I sennui Panthael prestathar aen sinda kifejezés értelmezése
Az ún. Király-levélben, amely a Sauron Defeated-ben jelent meg,
szerepel a következő vonatkozó alárendelt mondat: i sennui
Panthael prestathar aen, fordítása ?kit inkább Teljeseszűnek
kellene nevezni? ?who ought to be called Fullwise?. E kifejezés
értelmezése ellentmondásosnak bizonyult. Az általánosan
elfogadott, hogy az estathar az esta- ?hív, nevez? ige jövő idejű
többes szám harmadik személyű alakja, a sennui pedig egy
határozószó, ?inkább, helyett? jelentéssel. De az aen értelmezése
fogós kérdés. Jelentése, szerepe, etimológiája heves viták tárgya
régóta. Nagyjából három elmélet született eddig.
Az egyik szerint az aen olyan partikula, amelyet szenvedő
szerkezetben használunk többes harmadik személyben álló
befejezett igével egyetemben..."

--- "A.W.T." <edhilhaelor@...> wrote:
> Thomas, I find the following translation on your
> site. Could you point
> me to Tchitrec's  original here on Elfling? - Thanks
> - Edhil.
>
> "Az Elfling nyelvlistán e tárgyban lezajlott
> megbeszélések rövid
> összefoglalása. Szerző: Tchitrec. Fordította:
> Amanibhavam

It's one of the Elfling digests, you can find it in
the Files section on Elfling's webpage.

=====
-----
Thomas Ferencz                "Suddenly it strikes you that they're moving into
range
                                            and Doctor Strange is always changing
size."

                                             (Pink Floyd: Cymbaline)

__________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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Welcome.

>Now I study biology in Budapest, and the e-mail name I'm using comes
>from the topic I'm working on: no matter how much I've searched, I
>couldn't find the Quenya (or Sindarin) word for "moss", and the closest
>I could get to the idea was to coin a word to mean "hidden/shadowed
>leaf" (haldalasse), which is more or less the essence of mosses. If
>anyone has an idea, please share it with me (although I'm quite happy
>with "haldalasse").

QL (the old Qenya Lexicon) doesn't seem to have a unique word for
this... or "lichen" either, for that matter.

www.etymonline.com gives on the English:

moss - O.E. _mos_ "bog," from P.Gmc. *_musan_ (related to O.E. _meos_
"moss"); also in part from O.N. _mosi_ "moss, bog;" M.L. _mossa_ "moss,"
from the Gmc. source. Scott revived 17c."

I'm unable (too poorly equipped ;(P) to treat the Finnish and Latin
etymologies on their equivalents (_sammal_ / _muscus_) right now, but
maybe the above gave you some ideas... (hmm, QL has a word for "bog,
swamp" in 56R... in case you haven't read it somewhere, let me tell
you that the Parma Eldalamberon issue the Lexicon was published in is
currently out of print and thus I don't have it either).

Btw what is the Gnomish word for "more" _galt_ or _gantha_ (or what) on
p. 106L? ... Has anyone ever stopped to wonder (OK I know you have ;P)
if it could have something to do with #_han-_ from VT43:14?? (?_3AN_??)
I'm assuming that one's isolated from _han_, interpreted as "beyond
(~ "always more [than]"?)" since I've read Helge's article on Átaremma.

And what is the Qenya word for "tomorrow morning" in 34R..? (Interesting
if that has a differing etymology, from _nuóra_ in 66R which -- so I'm
told -- is translated "tomorrow's, the future", since Finnish _huominen_
means both "the tomorrow[day]" and poetically "the future"... but then
again _nuóra_ seems to corresponds more with "the forthcoming" or so,
and thus correlating with Finnish _tuleva, tulevaiset_ "that which is
to come" = "future")

That's condensing the message, now...

Elhath

---------
Anyone know a good Semitic etymology site or a Latin-script Arabic
dictionary? Send them hither!

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Teithant michiru

>Hi! As title, I need to describe "A is different from B" in Sindarin.
>
>I've consult Etymologies and wordlist of Sindarin but in vain. I try
>to write _U'-non sui le na chaew_ ("I-am-not like you at custom", may
>be "I'm different from you in behavior" in free translation), but I
>don't know if it is a proper or acceptable way to say it. Maybe _Im
>u'-hui le na chaew_(I [am] not-like you at custom)? I'm not sure.
>
>May someone give me some advice on it! And thanks for reading my
>question :)

I'm not sure if this has been answered yet, I've had some busy time
with my taken-on work and mailbox lately... but maybe use _minai_
"single, distinct, unique" (Ety:373) or _said_ "private, separete, not
common, excluded" (VT42:20) in some minor rephrasing?

(There's also an old Qenya word for "different" in 100L... ;P E-j)

Elhath

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From: "elhath *" <sp12@...>

> if it could have something to do with #_han-_ from VT43:14?

What's the meaning of this verb?
Mornon.

Mornon wrote:

>From: "elhath *" <sp12@...>
>
> > if it could have something to do with #_han-_ from VT43:14?
>
>What's the meaning of this verb?

I don't know if it's a verb but rather a stem... see PPQ, entries
"ADD TO" and "BEYOND".

Elhath

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From: "elhath *" <sp12@...>

> I don't know if it's a verb but rather a stem... see PPQ, entries
> "ADD TO" and "BEYOND".

I had looked for it as _han-_, but it is glossed as _han_ :op
Mornon.

If you speak or write Spanish and are interested in helping a
Spanish-speaker who is interested in help with practicing Quenya,
please contact Christina at CarlaSandra9@....

                                                        David

>>I think it was a great idea [to change from 4.06 to 25.03].

>Thanks

>>And the poem is very original. Nice work:)

>It is not mine. It is the Meat Puppets song "Lake of Fire", more widely
known as "Lake of Fire" from Nirvana "Unplugged" album.

>>:pozdrowienia:

>I na wzajem :)

"nawzajem" - piszemy razem;-))) Eh, daleko ci do porwanej polszczyzny:-) A to
taki piekny język!:-))) Jako tymaczasowy kujon maturalny wiem cos o tym:-)))))))

       Vendis

"Imagination without knowledge can create beautiful things. Knowledge without
imagination - only ideal." [Einstein]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>Maybe "altafoalyallo" (from your treasure) instead of "altafoalyasse"...

>Why not the better attested _harma_ for treasure? (From Appendix E.)


_harma_ is more for "terasures as jewels", and here it has more abstract sense.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> VERSION 0.11 ;)
>
>> AILIN NAARWA (thanks for the tip Vendis)
>
>> manna i uumie lie linnar apa firinte
> uminte linnar menelenna yasse i Ainur vilir
> ataltanter i ailininna naarwa ar arenen nwalyanter
> uuvalente atacene tenna mine ar attarasta Suulimeo

>NO! there is no such thing as **uvalvente; it's
downright wrong

Thomas suggested: _uuvalve te cene_ (:te: for "them"). Thus : _uuvalve te
(ata)cene tenna mine ar attarasta Suulimeo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> NO! there is no such thing as **uvalvente; it's
> downright wrong

Sorry. That was a typo. I meant to write _úvalve cene te_ .

> Are there any new learners of Quenya
> here who would like to review homework with me? :)
>
> Thanks everyone!
> -Alison


I would love to!  Others would too apparantly! Perhaps we could form
some little 'novices of Mr. Fauskanger's Quenya course' group and
exchange emails?  May I ask how far you have come along with the
study of the courses?  I myself have been learning a month(?), off
and on, and have a pretty decent concept of 2-9, working on 10 now.
(I leave out 1, because pronunciation confuses me more then a bit
still.)

Voltai1  ~  :)

Hello!  I have just signed up to the elfling mailing list today..I
am an English speaking 17 year old from America, an intellectual who
is delighted to find a Tolkein community!  The activeness and
responsiveness of this list from what I have viewed stuns and
delights me!  Well, to keep the post economic and useful.....I
consider myself a scholar of Quenya, and do so love the realm of ME
and all involved, though I am certainly a novice in this field.
(Linguistics and ME!)  I have taken up Mr. Fauskanger's course a
month ago(?) and have found myself addicted to learning the elven
language(Quenya)!  I am very grateful for this opportunity, and
pledge not to abuse it.  I am also very interested in chatting with
like-minded novices also taking Mr. Fauskanger's course! Thank you!!
=)

teithant Vendis

> _harma_ is more for "terasures as jewels", and here
> it has more abstract sense.

no, nowhere says this.. harma is abstract by itself,
since its exact meaning is 'possession, possessed thing'

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teithant voltai1

> I would love to!  Others would too apparantly!
> Perhaps we could form
> some little 'novices of Mr. Fauskanger's Quenya
> course' group and
> exchange emails?  May I ask how far you have come

there is one already, called Quenya_study_groups, and
can be found in the same place Elfling is (www.egroups.com)

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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "voltai1" <Hacylon@a...> wrote:
> Hello!  I have just signed up to the elfling mailing list today..I
> am an English speaking 17 year old from America, an intellectual who
> is delighted to find a *Tolkein* community!

Nicely, you're misspelling Tolkien's name exactly the same way the
master himself is complaining about in one of his letters: almost
everybody, he states, no matter if his collegues in Oxford or the clerks
of his bank, would've addressed him wrongly by "Tolkein", although he
never would have pronounced his name like this. :-)

Suil, Edhil

At 5/1/03 09:34 AM , Vendis wrote:

> >>Maybe "altafoalyallo" (from your treasure) instead of "altafoalyasse"...
>
> >Why not the better attested _harma_ for treasure? (From Appendix E.)
>
>_harma_ is more for "terasures as jewels",

Where did you hear that? It's news to me. Appendix E simply lists it as
"treasure"; Etym. says "treasure, a treasured thing". I see nothing about a
jewel connection or connotation.

                                                  --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hey, sister Moonshine, hold me 'til the break of dawn,
   Hold me long,
   Hold me hard,
   Hold me 'til the shadows fade away..."
                                                  --The Mission UK,
                                                   "Paradise (Will Shine
                                                    Like the Moon)"

En réponse ŕ voltai1 <Hacylon@...>:

> > Are there any new learners of Quenya
> > here who would like to review homework with me? :)
> >
> > Thanks everyone!
> > -Alison
>
>
> I would love to!  Others would too apparantly! Perhaps we could form
> some little 'novices of Mr. Fauskanger's Quenya course' group and
> exchange emails?  May I ask how far you have come along with the
> study of the courses?  I myself have been learning a month(?), off
> and on, and have a pretty decent concept of 2-9, working on 10 now.
> (I leave out 1, because pronunciation confuses me more then a bit
> still.)
>
aiya alison and voltai,
i'm a novice in quenya too (begining the 10 th lesson). And i think it's a good
idea to exchange emails between "novices".
i saw on Elfling's links that there is a quenya study group for people who want
to learn quenya with other students.
here is the address :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/quenya_study_group

Maybe it will be better to exchange there ?

henduluin


>

>
> --
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>
>

HY!
  I've tried to analyse David Salo's translation of
The Abyss poem and this is what I came up whit:

The Abyss
Lyrics By Philippa Boyens
Translation to Khuzdul by David Salo

1.IRKAT – LUKHUD MA
No shaft of light
2.KATABRIKIHU
Can breach it
3.ULFAT – ATAM MA
No breath of air
4.TANAKHI UDUHU
Comes from it
5.BIN – NÂT AZNÂN TARSISI
Only an endless dark rises
6.BAZAR UDU AGÂNÎ – FURKHÎN
Deep from the beginnings of the world
7.GURD!
Have fear!
8.MA NÎD SAKHU!
Do not look down!
9.MA SATF UNKHAI!
Nor step too close
10.ATKÂT ZATAGRAFIZU
The silence will take you
11.ZATABLUGI SULLUZU
It will swallow you whole

1.IRKAT – LUKHUD = this is construct state (words in order X Y
mean X of Y, or Y's X). It's interesting that David used
suffix –ul for construct state in Moria inscriptions, but
that's not the case here; shaft of light
MA = negative particle (no)

2. KATABRIKIHU – possible construction:
KATA (can) + BRIKI (breach) + HU (3rd sing. suffix)

3. ULFAT – ATAM = construct state; breath of air
MA = negative particle

4. TANAKHI = comes
UDUHU = UDU (from) + HU (3rd sing. suffix)

5. AZNÂN = dark; contains root Z-N found in Azanulbizar –
Vale of dim streams (bizar = vale, űl = streams)
BIN – NÂT = could be only endless
TARSISI = no idea about this, probably rises, but four-consonantal
root? Maybe some suffixes or prefixes

6. BAZAR = deep
UDU = from
AGÂNÎ – FURKHÎN = construct state; beginnings of world
	 AGÂNÎ = form of plural, beginnings
FURKHÎN = constructed to the pattern 1i23în like in KHIZDÎN
found in NULUKKHIZDÎN (Dwarf-dwelling on the Narog) formed
from root KH-Z-D (Dwarf); world

7. GURD = obviously imperative form, have fear

8. MA = negative particle, not quite sure about NÎD SAKHU
(NÎD could be some form of imperative, but no obvious connection
with GURD)

9. MA = negative particle, not quite sure about SATF UNKHAI
(SATF could be some form of imperative, but only connection
with GURD is the form C-V-C-C)

10. ATKÂT = probably a plural form; silence
ZATAGRAFIZU – possible construction:
ZATA (will) + GRAFI (take) + ZU (you, or 2nd sing. suffix)

11. ZATABLUGI – possible construction:
ZATA (will) + BLUGI (swallow)
SULLUZU = SULLU (whole) + ZU (you, or 2nd sing. suffix)

I've used David Salo's explanation of Khuzdul inscriptions
in Moria, but as he said there: `my construction of neo-Khuzdul
changed over time, and construction I used in soundtrack differs
from examples above suggested, in particular, I elaborated the
verbal system a good deal more', so all this are purely
speculations until David provides us with his explanation of
this interesting composition.

If anybody has any ideas or other interpretations about this
poem, let me know

BYE!

Hi,

Are there any "approved" or otherwise reasonable solutions to the
problem of a past-tense copula in Sindarin?

This has to do with the need to say things like "I was happy" or "He
was in the hall," where there's no participle or other aspectual form
which can be used to express the tense information.

The only copula I know of that has been suggested is _na_, but
apparently this is controversial. The past tense would be *_nane-_, I
guess.

	 _nanen_ "I was" _nanem_ "we were"
	 etc.

The LOTR movie dialogues include _aen_ as a copular expression, but
it seems to be tenseless, and to depend on the tense of a
subordinating verb for its own tense interpretation.

Thanks,

Fred Hoyt

--
Frederick M. Hoyt
Linguistics Department
University of Texas at Austin
fmhoyt@...
LIN 312 Webpage: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~fmhoyt/LIN312Homepage/312Main.html

Does anyone know of any examples of how to pronounce the "long"
vowels - i.e. those with the "'" or the "^" in Sindarin?  In all the
sound files I've heard they always seem to be pronounced the same as
the regular vowels.

Hannan le!

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "A.W.T." <edhilhaelor@s...> wrote:
> --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "voltai1" <Hacylon@a...> wrote:
> > Hello!  I have just signed up to the elfling mailing list
today..I
> > am an English speaking 17 year old from America, an intellectual
who
> > is delighted to find a *Tolkein* community!
>
> Nicely, you're misspelling Tolkien's name exactly the same way the
> master himself is complaining about in one of his letters: almost
> everybody, he states, no matter if his collegues in Oxford or the
clerks
> of his bank, would've addressed him wrongly by "Tolkein", although
he
> never would have pronounced his name like this. :-)
>
> Suil, Edhil

My bad, please overlook this newbie error =).  How, praytell, would
one phonetically pronounce 'Tolkien'?  Please do not fear to
overexplain, I'm quite new to the field on linguistics.=/(If that is
even the right word)  I have always assumed something akin to
'Toll-kin'

Does any one know of any reflexive Quenya pronouns
(himself,myself,etc.)? If not, what else could be used in their place,
maybe ***-nyen ***-lyel for myself and yourself? Thanks.

I'm pretty new myself and would love to be part of such a group. I have been
studying the Quenya Course from the Ardalambion site. I have taught myself
three languages above my primary, one of them having a non-romanized
alphabet (hebrew). I would be really interested to work through a piece with
a whole group especially since I do not have much of an understanding about
names of parts of the sentence structure in english. Love to hear from other
interested paries.
Arwen Legolas





>From: Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@...>
>Reply-To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>To: elfling@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [elfling] Re: newcomer Voltai1
>Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:16:28 +0100 (BST)
>
>teithant voltai1
>
> > I would love to!  Others would too apparantly!
> > Perhaps we could form
> > some little 'novices of Mr. Fauskanger's Quenya
> > course' group and
> > exchange emails?  May I ask how far you have come
>
>there is one already, called Quenya_study_groups, and
>can be found in the same place Elfling is (www.egroups.com)
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>ÁđďęôŢóôĺ ôç äůńĺÜí @yahoo.gr äéĺýčőíóç óáň óôď http://www.otenet.gr
>
>--
>Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com
>Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Hello,

I am relatively new to this group and have been taking the Quenya
course.  I'm a bit confused about a few things because I am reading
from different sources and feel as though I am getting conflicting
info.  If someone could clarify some things for me, it would be
greatly appreciated.  I've been trying to understand this on my own
even before joining the list but keep coming up with contradictions
so please forgive me if this is beginner stuff.

Regarding the vowels being long and short.  In the Quenya course it
describes the short vowels as having distinctly different sounds
from the long vowels (in addition to their length being pronounced);
however, in the website
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/Tolklang/pronlo/pronguide.html
the one with short wave files, it says that the long vowels are
actually pronounced the same only longer in duration.  Could someone
clarify for me which source is correct.

I also have a question regarding stress.  I am looking at the Quenya
course and referencing appendix E but still come up with many
questions.  In the appendix, Tolkien states that in words containing
more than two syllables the stress falls on the last syllable but
one, where that contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel
followed by two (or more) consonants.
So I understand this to mean that if the syllable that is second to
last has the above characteristics, then that syllable takes the
stress.  It is after this that I get confused...

"Where the last syllable but one contains a short vowel followed by
only one (or no) consonant, the stress falls on the syllable before
it, the third from the end."  It's the "but one" that gets me all
confused.  Does he mean the second to last syllable?  If so, In what
situation would the stress fall on the last syllable?  If it were to
contain a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or
more) consonants?  (I apologize again if this is beginner stuff).

Thank you for your help,
~Laitaine

da_antman23 wrote:

>Does any one know of any reflexive Quenya pronouns
>(himself,myself,etc.)? If not, what else could be used in their place,
>maybe ***-nyen ***-lyel for myself and yourself? Thanks.

Some have suggested *_vére(-?)_, based on _véra_ "personal, private,
own" (PM:340). Maybe one could also (or just) use the emphatic forms
(inye, elye) for this? Your suggestion doesn't seem too bad either
(at least in Ancient Egyptian they apparently used an enclitic form
of the same pronoun similarly, or so I've read ;)).

Elhath

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Anyone with a copy of the appropriate Parma Eldalamberon, could you
please shed some light of knowledge hither concerning JRRT's older
words for these?

bog (same as "swamp" on same page?) - 56R

comfort - 93L
comforting - 93L (either one of these same as "easement/easing"?)

more (Gnomish) - 106L (galt/gantha?)

shame: put to shame - 65L

tomorrow morning - 34R

I bow to you, may your beards never stop growing...

Elhath


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