Can you send me the like to that sound bite.

                please and thank you.







>From: CHRIS1224@...

>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com

>To: elfling@egroups.com

>Subject: [elfling] Re: Use of Sindarin in the Peter Jackson films

>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:26:45 EDT

>

>Greetings,

>

>I haven't been able to read all of the elfling postings of late so I don't

>know whether this has been discussed, but there is an audio download on the

>official LotR movie website that offers some samples of the Elvish that is

>being used in the films. One of the clips is apparently an adaptation of

>Gandalf's "Naur dan in-gaurhoth" formula to the summoning of the flood of

>Bruinen. The spell uses the Quenya form Ulairi ("...dan in-Ulairi" -

>probably

>the expression hoped for is something like "Let the waters of Bruinen take

>the Ulairi"). Obviously Peter Jackson is attempting to adhere to forms

>Tolkien himself used, but in this case I wonder whether it creates a

>problem.

>Is it legitimate to use a Quenya form within a Sindarin sentence? I know

>that

>the King's Letter in _Sauron Defeated_ opens with "Elessar Telcontar" even

>though the letter itself is in Sindarin, but that's not quite the same

>thing

>as the Ulairi, since in the letter the Quenya is not actually "involved"

>with

>the sentence structure in any way, but merely opens the letter as part of

>the

>salutation and is followed by the king's Sindarin names.

>

>I understand that Tom Shippy is Jackson's linguistic consultant. I wonder

>whether he is aware of this irregularity. Presumably if the spell is in

>Sindarin a Sindarin cognate for Ulairi ought to be employed.

>

>Any thoughts?

>

>

>Chris Seeman

>

>

>



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Yes I looked all over the site and couldn't find it. I second the

request for the link to the sound bites.



Eruanno aka Matþaius

CHRIS1224@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 4/5/00 5:05:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mcarver@...

> writes:

>

> >Yes I looked all over the site and couldn't find it. I second the request

> for the link to the sound bites.

>

> Here it is:

>

> http://www.lordoftherings.net/ra/new.ram

>

> You can also reach it by simply clicking on the "Live On Set" icon on their

> main page.

>

> Chris Seeman



It must have changed. :( It's only a little interview of Mr. Jackson



Eruanno

David Salo wrote:

>

>     I think I suggested on this list that the Sindarin form of Ulairi

>might

>be *Ulaer, which wouldn't sound very different.  Is it possible that this

>is actually what is being said?



Eh, Q _Ulairi_ (pl form) can't very very well correspond to S *_Ulaer_,

which would have to be a sg, wouldn't it? The pl must be *_Ylaer_ for

something similar, or can the diphthong _ae_ somehow "shield" the _u_ from

um-laut?



Also, I've got a idea for the sg form of _Ulairi_, that I've haven't seen

suggested anywere; couldn't it be _Ulairo_? Nouns with the masc ending _-ro_

seem to have plurals in _-ri_ (possibly to avoid final _-ror_), look for

example at the "parent" words _nostaro_ (masc), _nostare_ (fem) and

_nostari_ (pl).



                                            Andreas

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  David Salo wrote:



> I think I suggested on this list that the Sindarin form of Ulairi

> might be *Ulaer, which wouldn't sound very different.  Is it

> possible that this is actually what is being said?



Andreas Johansson wrote:



> Eh, Q _Ulairi_ (pl form) can't very very well correspond to S

> *_Ulaer_, which would have to be a sg, wouldn't it? The pl must be

> *_Ylaer_ or something similar, or can the diphthong _ae_ somehow

> "shield" the _u_ from um-laut?



Well, I know next to nil about Sindarin, but I listened to the clip

and this is what I thought I heard:



"Niin o hithaeglir lasto beth daer; rim o niin Bruinen dan in-Ulaer!"



Or maybe it /was/ _Ylaer_, as you say--perhaps to a North American

English-speaker like myself, _Ulaer_ and _Ylaer_ sound alike. I quote

Helge Fauskanger's article on Sindarin, found at the Ardalambion site:



"Sindarin has six vowels, a, e, i, o, u and y, the last of which

corresponds to German ü or French u as in Lune...."



In any case, this is my attempt at translating it:



"Waters of(from?) the Misty Mountains listen to [the] great word;

Host

of(from?) [the] waters of [the] Loudwater against the Ringwraiths!"



Did I come close?



-T.C.

On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Tandra Chu wrote:



> Well, I know next to nil about Sindarin, but I listened to the clip

> and this is what I thought I heard:

>

> "Niin o hithaeglir lasto beth daer; rim o niin Bruinen dan in-Ulaer!"



[...]

> "Waters of(from?) the Misty Mountains listen to [the] great word;

> Host

> of(from?) [the] waters of [the] Loudwater against the Ringwraiths!"

>

> Did I come close?



Sounds like it!



A very encouraging sign about this project!



Discussion of the word _U/lairi_ brings to mind what is, in retrospect, a

slip on JRRT's part: at the Council of Elrond Gandalf uses the word

_Nazgu^l_, which is a Black Speech word, at least twice before he recites

the Ring inscription -- at which point Elrond says, "Never before has

anyone dared to utter words of that tongue in Imladris." Wouldn't Gandalf

have said "U/lairi" instead of "Nazgu^l"?



+------------------------------------------------------------------+

+ Jerome S. (Jeannette E. H.-va verno) Colburn                     +

+ jscolbur@...                                          +

+ Quettanyar lintanootinyallo nai ranuvar Quenyandilive hendennar! +

+------------------------------------------------------------------+

am 08.04.2000 13:58 Uhr schrieb Andreas Johansson unter and_yo@...:



> David Salo wrote:

>>

>> I think I suggested on this list that the Sindarin form of Ulairi

>> might

>> be *Ulaer, which wouldn't sound very different.  Is it possible that this

>> is actually what is being said?

>

> Eh, Q _Ulairi_ (pl form) can't very very well correspond to S *_Ulaer_,

> which would have to be a sg, wouldn't it? The pl must be *_Ylaer_ for

> something similar, or can the diphthong _ae_ somehow "shield" the _u_ from

> um-laut?

>

> Also, I've got a idea for the sg form of _Ulairi_, that I've haven't seen

> suggested anywere; couldn't it be _Ulairo_? Nouns with the masc ending _-ro_

> seem to have plurals in _-ri_ (possibly to avoid final _-ror_), look for

> example at the "parent" words _nostaro_ (masc), _nostare_ (fem) and

> _nostari_ (pl).

>

> Andreas



I think the sg. of _nostari_ wd be _nostar_ (as _avar/avari_).  The pl. of

Ulaer shd be sth. like _Yleir_ or _Uleir_ I believe. (The diphthong is I

think  also touched by the "i"-affection of the pl.)



David Kiltz

> Well, I know next to nil about Sindarin, but I listened to the clip

> and this is what I thought I heard:

>

> "Niin o hithaeglir lasto beth daer; rim o niin Bruinen dan in-Ulaer!"

>

> Or maybe it /was/ _Ylaer_, as you say--perhaps to a North American

> English-speaker like myself, _Ulaer_ and _Ylaer_ sound alike. I quote

> Helge Fauskanger's article on Sindarin, found at the Ardalambion site:

  If y is the french u, then the recording says Ulaer, I think, at least

it sounds pretty much like the spanish u to me!

  Another thing, 'Bruinen' sounds as Bru-i-nen to me, not as Brui-nen,

and ui is a diphthongue in Sindarin, according to Ardalambion (I know

cero about Sindarin :) ). The r's sound spanish to me, which is right

according to Ardalambion, where it says they should be thrilled like in

Spanish or Russian... but should they be like spanish ere or like

spanish erre? hithaeglir, daer and Ulaer use ere, and rim uses erre,

just as a spanish would say them; but they are two different sounds, did

Tolkien say they were different depending on position or something?

  Angasule

At 16:56 09.4.2000 -0300, estgaido@... wrote:



>  If y is the french u, then the recording says Ulaer, I think, at least

>it sounds pretty much like the spanish u to me!

>  Another thing, 'Bruinen' sounds as Bru-i-nen to me, not as Brui-nen,

>and ui is a diphthongue in Sindarin, according to Ardalambion



Yes, but /ui/ seems to be the one diphthong most difficult to pronounce for

English speakers.  The subject has been up often enough on language related

email-lists and newsgroups. BMWIIS.



>  (I know

>cero about Sindarin :) ).



Hmm.  "Cero" would mean "do!" in Sindarin, so exactly what would you

command the poor Elves to do? ;)



>  The r's sound spanish to me, which is right

>according to Ardalambion, where it says they should be thrilled like in

>Spanish or Russian... but should they be like spanish ere or like

>spanish erre? hithaeglir, daer and Ulaer use ere, and rim uses erre,

>just as a spanish would say them; but they are two different sounds, did

>Tolkien say they were different depending on position or something?



In languages that don't have the Spanish ere/erre distinction (i.e. most

languages*), and don't use weak r-sounds similar to the English (which far

too many languages do IMHO) it usually is erre at the beginning of words

and before vowels, but ere before consonants and at the end of words.  You

may say that's the default for human beings!



Ray, are you here?  How is it in Welsh?



(*In languages that distinguish between short and long for all or most

consonantal sounds, like Italian, Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish, a short

/r/ is "ere" and a long /r:/ is "erre", of course.  Since you know

Norwegian, compare _være_ and _værre_ -- or is it spelt _verre_?  I'm sure

Helge will correct me if I'm wrong! :)











/BP



  B.Philip Jonsson  <mailto:bpj@...>bpj@...

<mailto:melroch@...>melroch@...

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"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

> At 16:56 09.4.2000 -0300, estgaido@... wrote:

>

> >  If y is the french u, then the recording says Ulaer, I think, at least

> >it sounds pretty much like the spanish u to me!

> >  Another thing, 'Bruinen' sounds as Bru-i-nen to me, not as Brui-nen,

> >and ui is a diphthongue in Sindarin, according to Ardalambion

>

> Yes, but /ui/ seems to be the one diphthong most difficult to

> pronounce for

> English speakers.



So how is it meant to be pronounced? I always end up something a bit like

"whee" when I try, which is probably wrong. The appendix to LotR suggests

that I should pronounce it as in "ruin", but as I pronounce that as "roo-in"

I may have a problem.



Nicholas Taylor

---------------

For every action, there is an equal and opposite government program

Where can I find Helge Fauskanger's article on Sindarin?

> >  If y is the french u, then the recording says Ulaer, I think, at least

> >it sounds pretty much like the spanish u to me!

> >  Another thing, 'Bruinen' sounds as Bru-i-nen to me, not as Brui-nen,

> >and ui is a diphthongue in Sindarin, according to Ardalambion

>

> Yes, but /ui/ seems to be the one diphthong most difficult to pronounce for

> English speakers.  The subject has been up often enough on language related

> email-lists and newsgroups. BMWIIS.

  Ah, yes, english native speakers speaking spanish are something really

funny :) hardly ever a correct vowel ;)



> >  The r's sound spanish to me, which is right

> >according to Ardalambion, where it says they should be thrilled like in

> >Spanish or Russian... but should they be like spanish ere or like

> >spanish erre? hithaeglir, daer and Ulaer use ere, and rim uses erre,

> >just as a spanish would say them; but they are two different sounds, did

> >Tolkien say they were different depending on position or something?

>

> In languages that don't have the Spanish ere/erre distinction (i.e. most

> languages*), and don't use weak r-sounds similar to the English (which far

> too many languages do IMHO) it usually is erre at the beginning of words

> and before vowels, but ere before consonants and at the end of words.  You

> may say that's the default for human beings!

  Aah, that's it, then, good to know!



> (*In languages that distinguish between short and long for all or most

> consonantal sounds, like Italian, Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish, a short

> /r/ is "ere" and a long /r:/ is "erre", of course.  Since you know

> Norwegian, compare _være_ and _værre_ -- or is it spelt _verre_?  I'm sure

> Helge will correct me if I'm wrong! :)

  Ah, but my pronunciation is terrible (I got very dissappointed when I

couldn't talk with people fluently, even though I could read perfectly)

since I learnt it on IRC, and r is the consonant I tipically have

trouble with with every language (luckily it doesn't usually matters).

  Anyway, it doesn't make such a difference if it's ere or erre as long

as one doesn't exagerate it (I usually say all eres within my family and

friends, too lazy for strong consonants ;) ).

  Angasule