Hello there evrybody. I listen to your discussions for some time now and I

think it is time to do something. I decided I will translate "Lake of Fire"

by Meat Puppets into Quenya. I got as far as the first part of the chorus.

Give me some feedback, please so I can continue. (I don't know how to do

accents above the vowels so if anybody was so kind and told me that, I'd be

grateful. Cheers)



_Ailino Nare_ (accent over 2nd "a")

Lake of Fire



_masse i umea lie linnar apa firintir_ (accent over "u")

Where do the bad folks go when they die (I have used "after" instead of

"when")



_uminte linnar menellinnar masse i Ainur vilir_

They don't go to heaven where the angels fly



I have used "where" constructed by Helge in his course. The rest of the

vocabulary comes from Tarin East's dictionary. Thanks to you both.



Lord Gulash





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From: "Lord Gulash" <lordgulash@...>



> _Ailino Nare_ (accent over 2nd "a")

> Lake of Fire



This means "Fire of lake"; "lake of fire" is _Ailin narwa_, if you mean

"made of fire" or "firely";)



> _masse i umea lie linnar apa firintir_ (accent over "u")

> Where do the bad folks go when they die



_Firinter_.





> _uminte linnar menellinnar masse i Ainur vilir_

> They don't go to heaven where the angels fly



_Menelennar_.

Mornon.

--- Mornon <lucaemauro@...> wrote:

> From: "Lord Gulash" <lordgulash@...>



>

> > _masse i umea lie linnar apa firintir_ (accent

> over "u")

> > Where do the bad folks go when they die

>

> _Firinter_.



either firinte or firir





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>> _masse i umea lie linnar apa firintir_ (accent over "u")

>> Where do the bad folks go when they die

  Excuse me, why "linnar" (as "go"), I would say "wanyar" or "lelyar".

  And also it seems to me that "where" here is "manna" (not "masse") (direction

but

  not location...)





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  Nilde                            mailto:nilde@...

From: "amanibhavam" <percival64@...>



> either firinte or firir



Yes, but not _firintir_, I think ;o)

Mornon.

>  Excuse me, why "linnar" (as "go"), I would say "wanyar" or "lelyar".

>  And also it seems to me that "where" here is "manna" (not "masse")

(direction but

>  not location...)



I chose _linnar_ because I that suited the text the most. And I have found

_masse_ in Helge's course, but _manna_ could also be a very good

interrogative word. Thanks for feedback everybody. Next parts are coming

soon.



Lord Gulash





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>_Ailino Nare_ (accent over 2nd "a")

>Lake of Fire



I would say _Ailin Náreo_ or _Náreo Ailin_. _Ailino Náre_ means "Fire of

Lake"









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OK, here is the rest of the song that I am trying to translate into

Quenya. I hope you can help. There are some constructed words.



_AILIN NARWA_ (I can't do accents over vowels, sorry)

LAKE OF FIRE



_masse i umea lie linnar apa firinter_

(where do the bad folks go when [after] they die)

_uminte linnar menellennar masse i Ainur vilir_

(they don't go to heaven where the angels fly)

_ataltanter i ailininna narwa ar firnareneninte/nwalyanareneninte_

(they go to lake of fire and fry [die of fire/torment of fire])

_uvalventin ela ata an i atta-lempea Sulimeo_

([we] won't see them again till the 4th of July [25th of March])



Now here are some explanations. The first two lines were checked by you

guys before, but they could be messed up again :P. The words firnarenen

and nwalyanarenen are constructed from two words joined together. The

first one is die-by-means-of-fire, while the second one means

torment-by-means-of-fire. I wanted to find something that would mean

fry or burn, so I came up with those. _atta-lempea_ means 25th. That

was the best I could do, since we don't know the word for twenty I used

two. And you're probably wondering why I changed 4.06 to 25.03. Well

the 4th of July is the Independence Day of USA, right? So I used the

date of the fall of Sauron as the Independence Day of Middle-Earth.

Tell me what you think.



Matthew

--- Lord Gulash <lordgulash@...> wrote:



> _AILIN NARWA_ (I can't do accents over vowels,

> sorry)



You can duplicate the vowels to indicate they are

long.



> LAKE OF FIRE

>

> _masse i umea lie linnar apa firinter_

> (where do the bad folks go when [after] they die)



- instead of masse I'd use manna

- if lie is plural, then umea should be plural: umie;

if lie is singular, then linna should stay in

singular; you decide

- firinte instead of firinter



> _uminte linnar menellennar masse i Ainur vilir_



- menelennar



> (they don't go to heaven where the angels fly)

> _ataltanter i ailininna narwa ar

> firnareneninte/nwalyanareneninte_

> (they go to lake of fire and fry [die of

> fire/torment of fire])



- these "constructions" won't do; they are no verbs at

all; why can't you use them in two words? _fire

nárenen_ or something like that? why do they have to

be expressed in one word?



> _uvalventin ela ata an i atta-lempea Sulimeo_



- what's uvalventin? has no sense at all to me

- twenty-fifth in the duodecimal system will be mine

ar attarasta (one and twentyfour)



> ([we] won't see them again till the 4th of July

> [25th of March])





=====

-----

Thomas Ferencz                "Suddenly it strikes you that they're moving into

range

                                            and Doctor Strange is always changing

size."



                                             (Pink Floyd: Cymbaline)



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From: "Lord Gulash" <lordgulash@...>



> _uminte linnar menellennar masse i Ainur vilir_

> (they don't go to heaven where the angels fly)



Isn't "to heaven" singularo, so _Menelenna_?



For the rest, I agree with Thomas.

Mornon.

>OK, here is the rest of the song that I am trying to translate into

Quenya. I hope you can help. There are some constructed words.



>_AILIN NARWA_ (I can't do accents over vowels, sorry)

LAKE OF FIRE



>_masse i umea lie linnar apa firinter_

(where do the bad folks go when [after] they die)



Maybe just "qualmë " (agony, death) instead of "firinter", thus "apa

qualmenta"(after their death);



>_uminte linnar menellennar masse i Ainur vilir_

(they don't go to heaven where the angels fly)



"menel" is a singular form (theres no plular and it already means the neglish

"heavens), so "menelenna"; I dont think "masse" is ok here, "man" is said to be

sed only in questions, so it would be better to use "yasse" here, thus "yasse i

Ainur vilir" (cf Namarie "nu luini yassen tintilar i eleni")



>_ataltanter i ailininna narwa ar firnareneninte/nwalyanareneninte_

(they go to lake of fire and fry [die of fire/torment of fire])



What is "ataltaner" supposed to mean here?; Maybe "arenen firirinter" instead of

two words together, it would mean exactly the same;



>_uvalventin ela ata an i atta-lempea Sulimeo_

([we] won't see them again till the 4th of July [25th of March])



"uvalventin" is kinda complicated, should it be "wont-we-them"?, here is rather

"wont-we-them-for" (end.-in for pl dativ; inye- nin, ente- #entin); ela is

glossed for "look!", not "see", "cene" would do better here, thus "uvalvente

atacene" (again-see); "an" is "for", "tenna" would be better, "tenna atta-lempea

Sulimeo" (I dont think "i" would go before 24th, but...).



>wondering why I changed 4.06 to 25.03. Well

the 4th of July is the Independence Day of USA, right? So I used the

date of the fall of Sauron as the Independence Day of Middle-Earth.

Tell me what you think.



I think it was a great idea.

And the poem is very original. Nice work:)





:pozdrowienia:



     Vendis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Vendis <vendis@...> wrote:



> "uvalventin" is kinda complicated, should it be

> "wont-we-them"?, here is rather "wont-we-them-for"

> (end.-in for pl dativ; inye- nin, ente- #entin); ela

> is glossed for "look!", not "see", "cene" would do

> better here, thus "uvalvente atacene" (again-see);



I am quite sure there is no such thing as "uvalvente";

one doesn't stick objective endings to the negative

verb, for one thing; for other, the object ending for

"them" is -t, cf. _laituvalmet_

t/~dorothea/elfling.html

>





=====

-----

Thomas Ferencz                "Suddenly it strikes you that they're moving into

range

                                            and Doctor Strange is always changing

size."



                                             (Pink Floyd: Cymbaline)



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amanibhavam <percival64@...> wrote:    [added attribution - Mod]

> I am quite sure there is no such thing as "uvalvente";

> one doesn't stick objective endings to the negative

> verb, for one thing; for other, the object ending for

> "them" is -t, cf. _laituvalmet_

> t/~dorothea/elfling.html   [added quote markers - Mod]



ending '-t' clashes with the sg "you", anyway, what do you suggest instead of

"uvalvente cene"? 'uvalve cenet'? 'uva cenelvet'???



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Vendis <vendis@...> wrote:

> amanibhavam <percival64@...> wrote:    [added

> attribution - Mod]

> > I am quite sure there is no such thing as

> "uvalvente";

> > one doesn't stick objective endings to the

> negative

> > verb, for one thing; for other, the object ending

> for

> > "them" is -t, cf. _laituvalmet_

> > t/~dorothea/elfling.html   [added quote markers -

> Mod]

>

> ending '-t' clashes with the sg "you", anyway, what

> do you suggest instead of "uvalvente cene"? 'uvalve

> cenet'? 'uva cenelvet'???



-t as "you" is not attested AFAIK; whereas -t as

"them" is; also there is no rule that the object

pronoun _has_ to be stuck to the verb; you can say

_úvalve cene te_

**uvalvente is not correct, I am sure of that



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Thomas Ferencz                "Suddenly it strikes you that they're moving into

range

                                            and Doctor Strange is always changing

size."



                                             (Pink Floyd: Cymbaline)



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>-t as "you" is not attested AFAIK; whereas -t as

"them" is; also there is no rule that the object

pronoun _has_ to be stuck to the verb; you can say

_úvalve cene te_

**uvalvente is not correct, I am sure of that



OK, "uvalve te cene". Nice:)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Firstly thanks for helping me.

Secondly I need to make few things clear. [Vendis's post]



>Maybe just "qualmë " (agony, death) instead of "firinter", thus "apa

qualmenta"(after their death);



I wanted to stick to the orignial as close as possible, so I used

_firinter_. I didn't want to say "painful", because I didn't get the

impression the author really means that. He just say "die".



>"menel" is a singular form (theres no plular and it already means the

neglish "heavens), so "menelenna"; I dont think "masse" is ok here,

"man" is said to be sed only in questions, so it would be better to use

"yasse" here, thus "yasse i Ainur vilir" (cf Namarie "nu luini yassen

tintilar i eleni")



Ok. I'll change that then.



>What is "ataltaner" supposed to mean here?; Maybe "arenen firirinter"

instead of two words together, it would mean exactly the same;



_atalta_ means "fall down". And I have made a typo ;) It was supposed

to be _ataltanter_ "they fall/go down".



>"uvalventin" is kinda complicated, should it be "wont-we-them"?, here

is rather "wont-we-them-for" (end.-in for pl dativ; inye- nin, ente-

#entin); ela is glossed for "look!", not "see", "cene" would do better

here, thus "uvalvente atacene" (again-see); "an" is "for", "tenna"

would be better, "tenna atta-lempea Sulimeo" (I dont think "i" would go

before 24th, but...).



Right.



>I think it was a great idea [to change from 4.06 to 25.03].



Thanks



>And the poem is very original. Nice work:)



It is not mine. It is the Meat Puppets song "Lake of Fire", more widely

known as "Lake of Fire" from Nirvana "Unplugged" album.



>:pozdrowienia:



I na wzajem :)





[And now Mornon's and Thomas Ferencz's]



>- instead of masse I'd use manna

- if lie is plural, then umea should be plural: umie;

if lie is singular, then linna should stay in

singular; you decide

- firinte instead of firinter



I will stick to the plural, so _umie_. Why _firinte_?



>- twenty-fifth in the duodecimal system will be mine

ar attarasta (one and twentyfour)



I will change that as well.



Thanks for everything. All the best.



Matthew



VERSION 0.11 ;)



AILIN NAARWA (thanks for the tip Vendis)



manna i uumie lie linnar apa firinte

uminte linnar menelenna yasse i Ainur vilir

ataltanter i ailininna naarwa ar arenen nwalyanter

uuvalente atacene tenna mine ar attarasta Suulimeo

--- Lord Gulash <lordgulash@...> wrote:



> [And now Mornon's and Thomas Ferencz's]

>

> >- instead of masse I'd use manna

> - if lie is plural, then umea should be plural:

> umie;

> if lie is singular, then linna should stay in

> singular; you decide

> - firinte instead of firinter

>

> I will stick to the plural, so _umie_. Why

> _firinte_?



Because you do not need a plural marker with the

already plural pronominal ending.





>

> Matthew

>

> VERSION 0.11 ;)

>

> AILIN NAARWA (thanks for the tip Vendis)

>

> manna i uumie lie linnar apa firinte

> uminte linnar menelenna yasse i Ainur vilir

> ataltanter i ailininna naarwa ar arenen nwalyanter

> uuvalente atacene tenna mine ar attarasta Suulimeo



NO! there is no such thing as **uvalvente; it's

downright wrong



Best wishes.





=====

-----

Thomas Ferencz                "Suddenly it strikes you that they're moving into

range

                                            and Doctor Strange is always changing

size."



                                             (Pink Floyd: Cymbaline)



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>>I think it was a great idea [to change from 4.06 to 25.03].



>Thanks



>>And the poem is very original. Nice work:)



>It is not mine. It is the Meat Puppets song "Lake of Fire", more widely

known as "Lake of Fire" from Nirvana "Unplugged" album.



>>:pozdrowienia:



>I na wzajem :)



"nawzajem" - piszemy razem;-))) Eh, daleko ci do porwanej polszczyzny:-) A to

taki piekny język!:-))) Jako tymaczasowy kujon maturalny wiem cos o tym:-)))))))



       Vendis



"Imagination without knowledge can create beautiful things. Knowledge without

imagination - only ideal." [Einstein]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> VERSION 0.11 ;)

>

>> AILIN NAARWA (thanks for the tip Vendis)

>

>> manna i uumie lie linnar apa firinte

> uminte linnar menelenna yasse i Ainur vilir

> ataltanter i ailininna naarwa ar arenen nwalyanter

> uuvalente atacene tenna mine ar attarasta Suulimeo



>NO! there is no such thing as **uvalvente; it's

downright wrong



Thomas suggested: _uuvalve te cene_ (:te: for "them"). Thus : _uuvalve te

(ata)cene tenna mine ar attarasta Suulimeo.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> NO! there is no such thing as **uvalvente; it's

> downright wrong



Sorry. That was a typo. I meant to write _úvalve cene te_ .