teithant duckyquackz

> can anyone translate the phrase "amin mela o" for
> me? I believe it's
> in Elvish...

this is what we call 'Grelvish', not Tolkien's Elvish
which concerns this mailing list...

anyway, i think it means 'i love you' or something
like that, but if you are interested in Tolkien's
Elvish i suggest you have a look at this
http://gildor.freepage.gr/tolkien/faq.htm#6

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Just a little hello message from a new member from Argentina. My name
is Cecilia and I am an English translator now attempting to learn a
new language: Quenya (for a start, as recommended in Ardalambion). I
have already started drafting some short translations and I will soon
be needing your help when I inevitably get stuck at some point.
I would love to get in contact with other members of my country if
any and I hope I can one day exchange information with you all.

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Talisha Hibdon" <GabrielSama@a...>
wrote:
[...]
> I am currently working on writing a song, of sorts, [...]Would anyone be
> willing to assist this poor writer out? Thank you all in advance!


   Sure I will, but it will have to be in Quenya, I will also translate
it into Hwentae. Just e-mail me the text OK?
AK

--- Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@...> wrote: > >
>
> the gerund thaed is of course intringuing, and can
> be
> analyzed as tha-ed... of course as you said, if it
> were *tha-, the gerund would be *thad... that's why
> i
> believe that the stem is not *STA but *STAG..
>
> stag- being an i-stem verb as you say, would
> normally
> have a gerund in -ed, with the intervocal primitive
> G
> lenited to zero: *STAG > *sthagita > *tha'eda >
> thaed
>
> and not: *STA > *sthata > *thada > *thad

Now I see :-))))))

Thanks a lot.

Lena

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I'm venturing out into the dark:

numbers describe the original line
* Quenya translation
+ literal English

Líre hecili lieron
song of the forsaken peoples

1)A land of old, worn and spent
* Nóre linyenwa, yern' ar yunca
+ A land of many years, worn and used
2) of rounded hills and drifting sand
* Amboiva corne ar litsiva rányala
+ of hills rounded and sands wandering
3)a dream holds half its being.
* olóre hepe ealarya perina
+ dream holds spirit-his half

4) Across we walk, the ancient folk
* vantammes arta, i yára lie
+ walk-we it across, the ancient people
5)and every hill a tale for us
* ar ilya ambo nyára emmen
+ and every hill tale for us
6)and every pool an ancestor
* ar ilya nende emma nosso
+ and every pool our kin-of

7)Our traces in the red-brown sand
* telcontammar i litsess' aira
+ Strides-ours the sand-upon coppery
8)the wind blows soon away
* Súrinen oacola rato
+ by the wind away-carries soon
9)as if we'd never touched its soil
* ve ullume appanemme cemen sina
+ like no time touched-we soil this

10)But times uncounted and untold
*  nan lúr unoti ar unyáraina
+  but times uncounted and untold
11)our steps have worn their tracks
*  telcontammar yeryane vatar
+  strides ours have worn paths
12)invisible in shifting sand
*  úcénima litsenen rúmala
+  invisible by sand shifting

13)They said we'd waste,
*  quentet ya sintuvamme
+  They said that we will fade
14)our time be past:
*  Lúmma ná vanwa:
+  time-our is past:
15)and yet we still endure.
*  Ananta emme larta er
+  and yet we endure still

comments: the plural of 'lie' to me is problematic either as 'lí' or
'lier'. I chose the plural because I didn't know how to attach the
genitiv to this form. 'Lieon' or 'lion' just didn't look right.

eala: form of spirit being. I would have prefered something more
substantial.

-mme: This is meant to be an exclusive we. I am, however, a little
confused about its correctness.

ullume: it actually is supposed to say 'not for ever'. However, for
loss of anything better I think it meaning 'never' is also
permissible. It also works with 'illume'  (see 'lost words')

úcénima: my own creation after the model of únótime.

I am also a new member. My name is Brandy, im from USA..Texas. Ive been
listening and learning for a while. I have also wirtten a few poems in Quenya. I
know they are probably not accurate, but hey thats another thing im here for. To
be corrected in this wonderful language.
  ceciliania <ceciliania@...> wrote:Just a little hello message from a new
member from Argentina. My name
is Cecilia and I am an English translator now attempting to learn a
new language: Quenya (for a start, as recommended in Ardalambion). I
have already started drafting some short translations and I will soon
be needing your help when I inevitably get stuck at some point.
I would love to get in contact with other members of my country if
any and I hope I can one day exchange information with you all.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I am currently working on writing a song, of sorts, and I would
very,
> VERY much like it if it could somehow be translated into Elvish. I
> haven't decided if I want it in Quenya or Sindarin, so I am willing
> to leave that up to whoever will help me translate. Would anyone be
> willing to assist this poor writer out? Thank you all in advance!
^_^
>
> Talisha

Well, i beleive it would be better to "adapt" a song or poem, and not
just translate it, not just concerning the obvious (sometimes a exact
translation is just not possible), but also regarding meter and rimes
(case it is your intention for the song to have any). I also carry,
perhaps nedlessly, the impression that many times, for one
song/poem/any.method.of.communication must be changed completely
litteraly, to hold the same meaning, and the thought may be valid for
Quenya and Sindarin. In conclusion, I beleive that a good translation
is made when one composer hears another's song and recreates a similar
one in his language, expressing the same fealing and exisiting in the
same context, but completely different to be able to do so depending
on the distance of the cultures, and we are clearly distant from the
elfs [a distance that is clear in his books: once a freind of mine
ponted out she liked elfs least of all the Lord of the Rings races
because they seemed cold and that their immortality was pointless
beacause they had no feelings of wich they could live on for a
eternity (she hadent read the silmarillion) and i explained this
distance might be felt in LOtR because the elf's time has passed, and
their thoughts, and feelings, where turned twards Valinor (so actualy
they where distant at the perspective of the other races, as the
hobbits, of whoms perspective is based the trilogy), but reading the
silmarillion she would know them better].

-_- im sleepy, gonna retire, actualy, re-reading my post, i find maybe
it isint of much use to you, but what the hell... know that i wrote it
ill just post.

Engwicar - sleepy elf "if you have all eternity to do stuff, why worry
know?"

Mae govannen! I can help you too if you still need it...but it will also have to
be in Quenya...i only know about half of the rules for Sindarin...:)
  da_antman23 <da_antman23@...> wrote:--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com,
"Talisha Hibdon"
wrote:
[...]
> I am currently working on writing a song, of sorts, [...]Would anyone be
> willing to assist this poor writer out? Thank you all in advance!


Sure I will, but it will have to be in Quenya, I will also translate
it into Hwentae. Just e-mail me the text OK?
AK



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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, amanibhavam <percival64@y...> wrote:
> Aiya,
>
> time to get back to some guesswork I guess... I
> present a translation of a poem, please, comment, if
> you feel like.
>
> ALKONYI ELÉGIA
> Elegy at Sunset
> Andúnea nainie
>
> Miklós Radnóti
[...]
Very nice - thanks for the poem :-)

Suil, Edhil

On strictly phonetic criteria PQ *wegtê > Q  *vehte would be correct.
Now if you need a Quenya term for "people", there is a very well-
attested one : _lie_...

Tchitrec

From Lena :

> Why is the "o" in An[ó]rien (…) lenghtened?

There is some evidence for a dependance of vowel-length on stress in
Sindarin : for example, vowels of stressed monosyllables ending in
one voiced consonant have been lengthened. Interestingly, in WJ:387
we have Fíreb, pl Fírib but class pl. Firebrim "Mortals" where the i
becomes untressed and is shortened.  Anor / Anórien may be another
example of such alternation, with an original long ó preserved in the
longer word but shortened in the shorter because unstressed.
Comparison with the Quenya cognate _Anar_ shows that the o of Anor
come from an earlier long â, which became a long open ô in archaic
Sindarin (spelt o with macron and hook in "Quendi and Eldar") and
variously gives au, ó or o in Sindarin, presumably according to the
context, though some aspects of the pattern are not totally clear (to
me).

Problem : in WJ:364 there are two counter-examples, _Ódhellim_ and
_Gódhellim_ with an unstressed and yet long ó… Perhaps originally
long unstressed vowels were not universally shortened, but only in
some positions (in especial not initially ; the initial is a
comparatively "strong" position in a word) ? Has somebody clearer
views ?

> I've seen two different explanations of the suffix "ion" in Sirion –
  Derdzinski gives it as augmentative
suffix "on" that takes the form "ion" if the preceding syllable
contains single "i", and Tolkien Dictionary
gives it as genitive plural suffix , with the meaning, I guess, "(the
land) of the waters". Which one is more likely, I wonder?

I am tempted to say : both, depending on the period :-)
Reinterpretation of the elements of a name is hardly unknown of from
Tolkien...

> Did Tolkien himself ever mention anything like "augmentative
suffix"?

RGEO:73 : .... _aear_ "sea" (…) _aearon_ has an augmenting suffix ....

> And how does river-name Gelion fit in?

See one interpretation in LR:359, where it is implied that it is a
name of Ilkorin origin meaning something like "bright", but that the
Gnomes (=Noldor) took it to mean "merry". Of course, this does not
fit the later linguistic scenario, but I do not know if Tolkien
imagined (and wrote down) a new explanation ; not unlikely, but I
have seen none yet.

As for the suffix -as, see the thread named "the word _certhas_" ; it
began with the message n°7371 posted on Dec. 27th 2001.

Nai Anar caluva tielmanna !

Tchitrec

i have a question concering how Pe aa > S o would
affect stress in penultimate

bassoneth is supposed to have it's o from earlier long
aa... my question is, that if the OS/MS form would be
*bassauneth, would't the stress fall on au?

then, the stress would be fossilised on the
penultimate, even when au was merged to o

of course, this word wouldnt be a good example.. let's
say that a name like *Anoron, or any other Sindarin
word VCaaCVC > VCoCVC had similar evolution, wouldnt
this penultimate o had a stress stuck to him because
of its earlier long nature?

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Dear friends,

my last question concerning kopula + superlative was ignored by the list,
maybe my question wasn´t concrete enough or too silly or something like that
(but I´m still a beginner and urgently trying to avoid mistakes, so please
forgive me!).
So I try it again, a bit more concrete:
Superlative form of _vanya_ would be _anvanya_.
the beautiful maiden would be _i anvanya vende_.
But how would you say "the girl is the most beautiful"?
_I vende ná i anvanya_? Three vowels would be combined there, but AFAIK this
is allowed in Quenya.
_I vende i anvanya_?  Sounds a bit silly, but AFAIK it would be possible,
wouldn´t it, using no copula at all (_Ilu vanya_  in Firiels song has no
copula, too)?
_I vende ná anvanya_  seems quite impossible to me, with long á followed by
inital a-. Is the article needed? In German it is, in English, AFAIK, too.
What would you prefer of all those examples or are they real alternatives,
valid all together?
I couldn´t find any example for a superlative adjective used predicatively
to manage this by myself, sorry!

cuio mae
Brigitte

Hi!

I'm very new to the language Quenya and I'm interested in translating
my name and my children's. But I have some trouble with the grammar
with my son's name:

He's real name is Hampus Hamberg and the aliases I want him to have
is "The longarmed son of the king" (he is nine month old and reaches
everything).

Hampus derives from Johannes which means something like "God is
forgiving": Ócama (have mercy) + Eru (God) + -ë (have done) = Ócameruë

Hamberg is a long story but means from something like "The Harbour of
the mountain(s)": Londë (haven) + Oronti (mountain plural) =
Londëoronti

(I hope this is correct according to the pros)

Now to the problem:

(Longarmed = Anda (long) + rancu (natural pair of arms) = Andarancu)

For "The longarmed son of the king" or "The king's longarmed son" I
have come to this conclusion:

"I Andarancu aranion"

Is this any of this correct?! Please help me!

Thanks in advance

> Auf wiedersehen (at last i'm returning to my german classes next week) but
> it should be something like auf wiederschreiben/wiederlesen, isn't it?

Auf wiederschreiben ^_^
Oh yes, and I'm new to the group.  =x
*fanfare, runs into brick wall*

^_^

Angelus
<http://skip.to/gatekeeper>
<Angelus@...>

Quote of the Day:
"Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write
code that humans can understand."  -- Martin Fowler

hey everyone,
        just wanted to know if this dictionary is accurate?

<A HREF="http://www.netwalker9000.com/ela.html">The Elven Dictionary: A</A>

------------------
[Note from moderator: This topic has been coming up frequently, so it is worth
repeating that this dictionary describes grelvish, an RPG language created by
the Grey Company. It is not Tolkien's elvish.

Go to http://www.ardalambion.com to obtain word lists for Quenya.

Go to http://www.jrrvf.com/~hisweloke/sindar/ to obtain a Sindarin Dictionary.
DragonFlame, the windows based dictionary program is
at:http://mapage.noos.fr/hisweloke/sindar/DragonFlame.zip

Finally, start at http://www.elvish.org to find just about anything else you
need.

Elimloth]

At 4/1/03 11:21 PM , Brigitte.Rassbach@... wrote:

>my last question concerning kopula + superlative was ignored by the list,
>maybe my question wasn´t concrete enough or too silly or something like that

Personally, I've just been busy. I've barely had time to keep up with the
list, never mind reply.

>So I try it again, a bit more concrete:
>Superlative form of _vanya_ would be _anvanya_.
>the beautiful maiden would be _i anvanya vende_.

No, "the beautiful maiden" would be _i vanya vende_. _I anvanya vende_
would be "the most beautiful maiden", or "the prettiest maiden". That's
what "superlative" means, after all.

>But how would you say "the girl is the most beautiful"?
>_I vende ná i anvanya_? Three vowels would be combined there, but AFAIK this
>is allowed in Quenya.

Practically anything is allowed across word breaks.

>_I vende ná anvanya_  seems quite impossible to me, with long á followed by
>inital a-. Is the article needed?

Actually, this is what I'd opt for, with the literal meaning "the maiden is
(the) most beautiful". Remember that the article is fairly optional in
Quenya, even in places where English might require it.

The _-á a-_ combination simply means you need to be a bit careful about
pronunciation, but such combinations occur in most (if not all) languages.

                                                  --Kai MacTane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why can't I live a life for me?
   Why should I take the abuse that's served?
   Why can't they see they're just like me?
   I'm not the one that's so absurd!"
                                                  --Ministry,
                                                   "Every Day is
                                                    Halloween"

Untitled Stationeryhi all,

i know that someone has already asked this, and i have looked in the yahoo
archives, but there are about 2300 posts that came up when i typed in 'i
love you'.  If someone could tell me either how to say it in sindarin, OR
how to find it in the archives, it would be much appreciated.

AND, is there a specific way to narrow down your searches in yahoo?

thanks,
donna

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- londeoronti <londeoronti@...> wrote:

> Hampus derives from Johannes which means something
> like "God is
> forgiving": Ócama (have mercy) + Eru (God) + -ë
> (have done) = Ócameruë

what is the source of _ócarna_? sounds like "made
together" to me
the attested word for forgive is _apsene_ so maybe
*Eruapseno?

> Now to the problem:
>
> (Longarmed = Anda (long) + rancu (natural pair of
> arms) = Andarancu)
>
> For "The longarmed son of the king" or "The king's
> longarmed son" I
> have come to this conclusion:
>
> "I Andarancu aranion"

My Númenorian-sounding solution would be
Tarion-Anadarancu :-)

=====
-----                             "Esti béke, téged köszöntelek,
                                     az úton nehéz napom pora száll;
Thomas Ferencz             lassú szívemben ilyenkor lágyan
                                     szenderg a folyton készülő halál."
                                     (Radnóti M.)

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--- Kai MacTane <kmactane@...> wrote:
> At 4/1/03 11:21 PM , Brigitte.Rassbach@...
> wrote:

> Actually, this is what I'd opt for, with the literal
> meaning "the maiden is
> (the) most beautiful". Remember that the article is
> fairly optional in
> Quenya, even in places where English might require
> it.


I think both solutions have some logic to it. A lot of
langauges have a definite article before a
superlative, because superlative is quite definite
after all, many maidens can be more beautiful, but
there is only one that is the most beautiful (on the
other hand Polish for instance does not have articles
at all, so there it is simply _najładniejsza
dziewczyna_ without articles).
But we must IMHO also consider the fact that IIRC
Tolkien glossed the prefix an- as "superlative or
intensive" prefix; so an expression like _anwanya
wende_ might mean "the most beautiful maiden" or "very
beautiful maiden", and the article might not be necessary.

=====
-----                             "Esti béke, téged köszöntelek,
                                     az úton nehéz napom pora száll;
Thomas Ferencz             lassú szívemben ilyenkor lágyan
                                     szenderg a folyton készülő halál."
                                     (Radnóti M.)

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teithant Donna Mair

> i know that someone has already asked this, and i
> have looked in the yahoo
> archives, but there are about 2300 posts that came
> up when i typed in 'i
> love you'.  If someone could tell me either how to
> say it in sindarin, OR
> how to find it in the archives, it would be much
> appreciated.

le melin

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</lurk>
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, amanibhavam wrote:

> --- Kai MacTane <kmactane@...> wrote:
[snip]
> > Quenya, even in places where English might require
> > it.
[snip]

The article (in English) isn't always necessary, either - I *know* I've
seen Shakespeare write things like "That is most beautiful", and I've seen
it use elsewhere as well, though my muzzled memory suggests that it's a
fairly archaic/rare usage.
Slan,
Liam
PS - Hi! I'm new to the list, and lurking for the most part, and working
away at learning Quenya "properly" instead of just having bits of words &
things tucked in my head from years & years of being absorbed in Tolkien.
(The Hobbit was my first book longer than 20 pp., lo these many years
gone.)
<lurk>

"If we keep our pride
Though Paradise is lost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost"
-Rush, 'Bravado', _Roll_the_Bones_

I translated the “Bruinen Spell” from FotR to Quenya. I took the english
translation from Gwaith-i-Phethdain as foundation for my translation. I
couldn’t find Quenya words for “Hithaeglir” and “Bruinen” so I had to
construct them – and I know that they are probably wrong – if anyone
knows better words please tell me! All other words come from the
wordlists at Ardalambion.
And please tell me what you think about the rest, especially the cases.
I’m not sure if I used the correct ones because I didn’t get that far in
the Quenya course yet. And I’m used to only four cases...

As a reminder, the original text and the english translation from
Gwaith-i-Phethdain:

Nîn o Chithaeglir
Waters of the Misty Mountains

lasto beth daer;
listen to the great word;

Rimmo nîn Bruinen
flow waters of Loudwater

dan in Ulaer!
against the Ringwraiths!


And now my translation to Quenya:

Neni Hísaicassion
Waters Misty-Mountains-of (Gen. pl.)

á lasta i taura quetten
listen the mighty word-to (Dat.)

á sire neni Ráveneno
flow waters Loudwater-of (Gen.)

i Ulairinnar
the Ringwraiths-towards (All. pl)

my constructed words:
Hísaicassi:
hísie “mist” - I left out the “ie” because it sounds better – is that
allowed?
aicasse (mountain peak)>AYAK<aeglir (range of mountain peaks) (LR349)

Rávenen
ráve “roaring noise” (I couldn’t find a word for “loud”)
nen “water”


I hope it’s not too wrong and I hope I get lots of answers from you.
Thanks for reading,
Histë

HY!
I just found on 'The Tolkien Archives' web site translation of the
Ring verse into Black Speech and my question is: Does anybody know is
this original Tolkien's translation or is it reconstruction? I didn't
see anybody mentioning this anywhere else...

Gakh Nazgi Ilid Albai Golug-durub-uuri lata-nuut.
    Three Rings for the Elven kings under the sky,
Udu takob-ishiz gund-ob Gazat-shakh-uuri.
    Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Krith Shara-uuri matuurz matat duumpuga.
    Nine for Mortal Men, doomed to die,
Ash tug Shakhbuurz-uur Uliima-tab-ishi za,
    One for the Dark Lord on his Dark Throne,
Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.
    In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie,
Ash nazg durbatuluk,
    One Ring to rule them all,
Ash nazg gimbatul,
    One Ring to find them,
Ash nazg thrakatuluk,
    One ring to bring them all,
Ugh burzum-ishi krimpatul,
    and in the darkness bind them,
Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.
    In the Land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

For not sending a long poem without that someone is interested, are you
interested in the rest of English, Italian and/or Quenya poem? If not, I avoid
to send it, it's long... ;o)
Mornon.
P.S.: sorry for my absence in these days, but I wasn't able to neither send nor
receive messages... In additon, my PC didn't function for some day, and also now
it doesn't work well... :o(

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: "Gildor Inglorion" <elfiness@...>

> > I have read two different versions of white, Im
> > working on some stuff
> > and I was wondering if someone could quickly tell me
> > which of the
> > following is correct "Ninque" or "Silque"
>
> i havent found Silque in Helge's wordlist.. where did you?

It seems to me there is also _fana_ for "white"...
Mornon.

teithant Dusk

> And now my translation to Quenya:
>
> Neni Hísaicassion
> Waters Misty-Mountains-of (Gen. pl.)

yes.. or ablative Hiisaicassillor

> á lasta i taura quetten
> listen the mighty word-to (Dat.)

ah another anglicism... english i the only language i
know that needs 'to' after 'listen'... AFAIK greek,
latin, french, italian and german don't, why Quenya?
:)

> i Ulairinnar
> the Ringwraiths-towards (All. pl)

good.. but it would be preferable if you had a word
for 'against'

> my constructed words:

i like them! :))

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teithant Danijel Legin

> I just found on 'The Tolkien Archives' web site
> translation of the
> Ring verse into Black Speech and my question is:
> Does anybody know is
> this original Tolkien's translation or is it
> reconstruction? I didn't
> see anybody mentioning this anywhere else...

i think its origin is from the TolkLang list.. it's
reconstructed Black Speech by various linguists (or
'linguists') in accordance and respect to the original
vocabulary and grammar

(that means, it not an attempt analogous to Grelvish)

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Gildor Inglorion wrote:

>teithant Dusk
>
>>á lasta i taura quetten
>>listen the mighty word-to (Dat.)
>>
>>
>
>ah another anglicism... english i the only language i
>know that needs 'to' after 'listen'... AFAIK greek,
>latin, french, italian and german don't, why Quenya?
>:)
>
>
That's what I mean when I write "I'm not sure about the cases"...
Thanks for the help.  So you think I should use Nominative? OK, I will...

But im German you say "ho"ren" for "listen" and "zuho"ren" for "listen
to" so the "zu-" seems to be something like english "to".

>>i Ulairinnar
>>the Ringwraiths-towards (All. pl)
>>
>>
>
>good.. but it would be preferable if you had a word
>for 'against'
>
>
Yes, but I couldn't find one...

>>my constructed words:
>>
>>
>
>i like them! :))
>
>_
>
That means a lot to me.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 04:14 PM, Danijel Legin wrote:

[snip]
> Uzg-Mordor-ishi amal fauthut burguuli.
>    In the Land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

Perhaps it's an Orcish word, but why "Mordor" and not "Lugbúrz"? I'd
imagine Orcish preferable to Elvish words as borrows into Black
Speech... or rather, I'd expect Orcish words to be borrows *from* Black
Speech in many cases (if likely very mutilated thereafter)
... Mistrustful as a source as it may be, I see in Ruth S. Noel's "The
Languages of Middle-earth" glosses Lugbúrz as "Dark Tower", that is,
Barad-dûr. Do we not know enough to (re)construct "-land-of" sort of
piece by which to make the compound dark-land/black-land, for literal
translation of Elvish meaning?
Slán,
Liam

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