Does Sindarin make a distinction between transitive and intransitive

verbs?  If I want to say "We will meet," can I use _govaditham_, or

would I have to say _govadithan le_?



Thanks!

Helkabeleth wrote:



>Does Sindarin make a distinction between transitive and intransitive

>verbs? If I want to say "We will meet," can I use _govaditham_, or

>would I have to say _govadithan le_?



I always check for a possible preference either way (via English

dictionary). Don't see how "meet" would be one or the other, though ;)

(There's no "intransitive" **tavautua or **tapautua for "be met" in

Finnish... or in English AFAIK), so I guess passive would come in

there.



We will meet = _geveditham_ according to Helge's theory

I don't understand ?_govadithan_...



Elhath



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   Hi everyone;



  I did a translation of the "song of separation", an

ode for the beauty of Tinuviel. You can find it in the

Silmarillion, on page 234. Tell me what you think of

it!



Laer o minai

Glîr an i Lúthien i vain a i elenath uin menel



Namarië, amar voe, menel forodren,

an uireb galu, ai si derthiel,

si núriel, a teil gelig,

nuin Ithíl a nuin Anor,

Lúthien Tinuviel,

brainwain o min firion ethir garnen pedi.

Man lant vi lith ennorath,

man sen gwanno, dan-ego,

alcarnen ned iâ iaur,

ha tôl maer, an sen

gwath a minuial, ennor a gaeron-

caro sen min lû cuino Lúthien.





     Aranelle



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Aranelle E Labigni wrote:



>   Hi everyone;

>

>  I did a translation of the "song of separation", an

>ode for the beauty of Tinuviel. You can find it in the

>Silmarillion, on page 234. Tell me what you think of

>it!



It's been some time, no one's bothered so I guess it's

up to me again... ;)



>Laer o minai



Maybe _Laer seidiad/i heidiad_?



>Glîr an i Lúthien i vain a i elenath uin menel



What is this supposed to mean? The use of _uin_ strikes me

as rather ablative-like in any case. In Doriathrin the

genitives and words would be different, moreover.



>Namarië, amar voe, menel forodren,



"Farewell sweet earth and northern sky,"



I'd rather use a Sindarin farewell. _Moe_ "soft"? Original.



>an uireb galu, ai si derthiel,

>si núriel, a teil gelig,



"for ever blest, since here did lie

and here with lissom limbs did run"



_Sí_ with medium-long i, naturally (you probably knew that).

I might prefer _go d*a*il gelig_.



>nuin Ithíl a nuin Anor,



"beneath the Moon, beneath the Sun,"



_Ithil_, both i's short.



>Lúthien Tinuviel,

>brainwain o min firion ethir garnen pedi.



"Lúthien Tinúviel

more fair then mortal tongue can tell."



See the orthography of Tinúviel...

"More fair" is _ambain_ IMO (_-wain_ is superlative).

Is this meant to be in Doriathrin?

"Can tell/speak" = _gâr peded_. (? ... or would the

infinitive have been used then..? Any attestation?

If none then I'd use the gerund (-ed))



>Man lant vi lith ennorath,



"Though all to ruin fell the world"



lit. maybe _Er/Ae-hi na fired lant i 'arth(on) bân,_



>man sen gwanno, dan-ego,

>alcarnen ned iâ iaur,



"and were dissolved and backwards hurled

unmade into the old abyss,"



_A dîn rennin, danneb hennin

ugernin na iâ iaur,_



>ha tôl maer, an sen

>gwath a minuial, ennor a gaeron-

>caro sen min lû cuino Lúthien.



"yet were its making good, for this---

the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea---

that Lúthien for a time should be."



_(a n)dan hâ onnad/gared maer, as sen---

gwath ar aurost/minuial, ennor a gaeron---

ae am mîn lû cuinatha Lúthien._



Or something like that.



Elhath



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     Hi everyone!



  I need some advice on that work that someone asked me

to do. I have a lot of difficulties to find words. If

you have an idea, advices of words, let me know and

explain it.



Gwest



Pith ûcarir treneri nin faer an edh, nín melethril.

Words do not tell (cannot explain) my spirit for you,

my lover.



Ûcâr minai bach esta nín egleriad.

Not can (a) unique thing name my praise.



Im cerin, erui, echeded nin mîl an edh na ‚garo cam

dîn, lhoss eneth a anno miphileg.

I can, alone, make my love to you by, holding hand of

yours , whisper(ing) (your) name and giving tender

kiss.



Im cerin, erui, echedon gwaedh na ‘aro cam dîn, bo

chûn nín, anno dâf na minno.

I can, alone, make oath by having hand of yours, on

hearth of mine, giving permission to enter.



Nin faer o edh nûrein sui en gaeron man mín reviam or,

a sain hae or haewain falais.

My spirit for you (is) deeper as of the ocean that we

are sailing over, and far over is farer shores.



Nin mîl o edh pân sin naid a mae hae.

My love to you (is) all these things and well far.



Im gwedhon meleth, faer a rhaw nín na edh, na glass o

faer nîn;

I am binding love,  spirit and flesh of mine to you,

with the joy of spirit of mine;



na im ceron edh sui i dîs nîn.

and I am making you as the  bride of mine.



Sen gwest im cerin na edh ah glass o chûn a glass o

faer nîn.

This oath, I made (it) to you with joy of hearth and

joy of spirit of mine.



Im mîl edh a natha nef a thar‘ur.

I love you and will on this side(here now) and beyond

death.



Here is the original text. I had to change a lot of

thing because of the complications of words. Some (a

lot of them) do not have their equivalents in

Sindarin.



Words cannot describe my feelings for you, my beloved.

Nor can any single action convey my dedication. I can

only show my love for you by a caress of your cheek, a

whisper of your name and kiss on your lops. I can only

show my commitment by holding your hand close to my

heart and allowing you to step in. My feelings for you

are deeper than then ocean we sail upon right now and

they reach far past its farthest shores. My love for

you is all these things and much more. I swear my

love, honor and whole being to you and draw you in as

my bride. This vow I make to you with gladness in my

heart and joy from my lips. I love you and will be

there for you until I die.







           Thank you



  Aranelle



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Back after a little message bouncing and account off-turning... let's

see if *this* post gets through or not. I'll know in just a bit. ;P



Aranelle wrote:



>Here is the original text.

>

>Words cannot describe my feelings for you, my beloved.

>Nor can any single action convey my dedication. I can

>only show my love for you by a caress of your cheek, a

>whisper of your name and kiss on your lops. I can only

>show my commitment by holding your hand close to my

>heart and allowing you to step in. My feelings for you

>are deeper than then ocean we sail upon right now and

>they reach far past its farthest shores. My love for

>you is all these things and much more. I swear my

>love, honor and whole being to you and draw you in as

>my bride. This vow I make to you with gladness in my

>heart and joy from my lips. I love you and will be

>there for you until I die.

>

>If you have an idea, advices of words, let me know and

>explain it.



My suggestions:



Pith ú-'erir trenared/otheithad deniaid nín le, a mellenen. Arlaw

gâr minai carth coled egleriad nín. Erui gerin tanad veleth nín le

na ladad nîf lín, thloss eneth lín a vib/viphileg na béath lín.

Erui gerin tanad egleriad nín na gared cham lín bo guren a davol

le minnad. Teniaid nín le ennyfn/ennuir nu aearon am i reviam hi a

rathar hae athan felais chaerwain dîn. Meleth nín le naid hîn

phain ar annaer/hostol hân. Gweston velethen, aglaren a ûn bant

(or _phant_??) nín le a mithegin le (be) dineth/dîs nín. 'West hen

cerin le na 'ell(am) vi guren a 'las o phéath nín. Le melin a

nathon ennas le naden firin.



am .... "upon", that apparently reading somewhere in Ety:348

according to Dragon Flame... :roll (not in AM-2-, methinks)

annaer/hostol .... suggestions for "much", based loosely on Welsh

_yn fawr_ (& Lat. mult-) and _cryn_.

ennyfn/ennuir .... "deeper", comparative plurals (an+tofn, an+nûr).

*dava- .... "to yield, allow" (David Salo's coinage AFAIK).

#-en .... 1st singular possessive suffix.

*hân .... "more", based on stem _han_ 'increase, enhance, add to'.

lada- .... "to smooth out, stroke, soothe, beguile" (LT2:344).

*naden .... "until" (R. Derdzinski's coinage).

*otheitha- .... "to describe" (< Lat. _de-scribo_).

*péath .... "lips". Terribly off (unlike the rest %))? PEG <~> WEG,

TE3, etc.

*tana- .... "to show" (from TTT movie dialogue by D. Salo?).

*teniad .... "feeling", based on Q. _tenya-_ "to feel".



I think the rest are pretty self-explainatory..



(_mae athan_ "well beyond" might also be a doable roundabout

for "much more"... thanks for the brilliant idea, very nice!)



Somebody please point out if I've made any part-of-the-sentence

and/or subordination or other particle errors... I'm not terribly

proficient in these yet and would hate to see myself doing the

same errors in the future.

Better vocabulary suggestions are also welcome, naturally. ;)



Elhath





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This is my attempt to translate the same piece. It is by no way an

argument, as it'll take me at least another ten years to produce smth

as mature as Elhath's work.

I still don't entrust myself with reconstructing words, so there are

two gaps to be filled – "feel" and "lips". It's just some ideas

concerning how it all could be translated, sometimes slightly

changed, without losing its meaning, I hope. If you like any of my

ideas and use them, I'll be happy.



Pith ú-drenar i le …, a melethril nín.

words cannot tell what I feel for you, oh my love.



Law gardhen le tanatha i vronwe nín.

no my deed will show you my devotion.



I ven erui le tanad i veleth nín

the only way to show you my love



na trî moe-vathad i niflad lín

is through soft-stroking the skin of your face,



trî thloss i eneth lín,

through wisper your name,



a vibid in … lín.

and kissing your lips.



I ven erui le nanad i sadron im

The only way to show you that I'm faithful(committed)



na trî chebed i gam lín or `uren

is through holding your hand on my heart



ar le annad i dhâf minnad.

and giving you permission to step in.



I veleth nín alle ennuir i`aer hi reviam

My love to you is deeper than the ocean we sail now



ar palan-vâd athan i felais chaerwain dîn.

and goes far and wide beyond its farthest shores.



I veleth nín alle i naid hîn phain ar ennaer.

My love for you is all those things and greater.



Le gweston i veleth, i faer ar i thraw nín phain

I swear to thee all my love, spirit(soul) and body



ar le eston dhîs nín.

and call you my bride.



Le annon i `west hen na chûr vi guren

I give you this oath with readiness(vigor) in my heart



a `lass uin … nín.

and joy from my lips.



Gerithach velethen an-uir

you will have my love forever



ar le ú-awarthon na i lû ir firin.

and I won't forsake(abandon) you till the moment when I die.







ennaer> an+daer – greater

niflad> nîf(face)+flâd(skin) – the skin of your face

palan-vâd>palan+dâd – go far and wide (like palan-dir)



the original text:



> >Words cannot describe my feelings for you, my beloved.

> >Nor can any single action convey my dedication. I can

> >only show my love for you by a caress of your cheek, a

> >whisper of your name and kiss on your lops. I can only

> >show my commitment by holding your hand close to my

> >heart and allowing you to step in. My feelings for you

> >are deeper than then ocean we sail upon right now and

> >they reach far past its farthest shores. My love for

> >you is all these things and much more. I swear my

> >love, honor and whole being to you and draw you in as

> >my bride. This vow I make to you with gladness in my

> >heart and joy from my lips. I love you and will be

> >there for you until I die.

> >

Lena

Here I may have some stupid questions and hope you would solve them

for me :)





> Erui gerin tanad egleriad nín na gared cham lín bo guren a davol

> le minnad.



Why _cam_(hand) becomes _cham_ here? Shouldn't the objective noun

after verbs beginning in _c-_ be lenited to _g-_ as _gam_?



Gweston velethen, aglaren a ûn bant

> (or _phant_??) nín le a mithegin le (be) dineth/dîs nín.



Here I don't understand where _mithegin_ comes from? (_mithegi-_?)



>Teniaid nín le ennyfn/ennuir nu aearon am i reviam hi a

rathar hae athan felais chaerwain dîn.



Some people use _na_ to express comparative, eg. _I 'wenn amman(_an_

+ _ban_, I guess...) na le_(The girl is more beautiful than you), and

here Elhath used _nu_(under). Which is correct, or he used _nu_ is

because it is "deeper" than "ocean", or both are doable?



Thanks for your reading my questions! :)



Meneg Suilad

With a little change already... _ûn bant nín_ > _ûn nín phant_.



So it begins.



Elhath





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Vedui', Elhath.  Amin essa en Calimë Silvana. I have been studying Eldalie for

quite some time, and am delighted to continue. I have a friend who needs tua,

(help) tua that I cannot give her.  Lle quena i'lambe tel' Eldalie? If so, do

you think you can help her, or give her email to somebody that does? Her name is

Shael Tiersol, and she is a great mellon of mine. It would be wonderful of you

if you could help her. Her email is silivren@... Diola lle (thank

you) so much, it would be of great import if you could do this for her.  Amin

naa tualle,



        Calimë Silvana















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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,



I can see that you write in Grelvish. Unfortunately,

Grey-company Elvish is a mishmash language constructed

for RPG purposes and has very little to do with real

Quenya and Sindarin. I recommend that you read this

list's FAQ and visit www.ardalambon.com for real

references.



Greetings

--- Avenna Nuivven <avennanuivven@...> wrote:

>

>

> Vedui', Elhath.  Amin essa en Calimë Silvana. [...]

=====

Shine on,



Thomas



"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here

And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear that I'm not here."

(S. Barrett)

I don't have much time, but maybe this doesn't take it... ;)



Michiru wrote:



> > Erui gerin tanad egleriad nín na gared cham lín bo guren a davol

> > le minnad.

>

>Why _cam_(hand) becomes _cham_ here? Shouldn't the objective noun

>after verbs beginning in _c-_ be lenited to _g-_ as _gam_?



I may have misremembered. I wish you had quoted the original text as

well (I have many other things to remember now, so please excuse me).



>Gweston velethen, aglaren a ûn bant

> > (or _phant_??) nín le a mithegin le (be) dineth/dîs nín.

>

>Here I don't understand where _mithegin_ comes from? (_mithegi-_?)



MI+tog- > *_mithog-_ (*mithegi-?)? Or should it be *_mirthog-_ or

*_minnog-_, perhaps...



> >Teniaid nín le ennyfn/ennuir nu aearon am i reviam hi a

>rathar hae athan felais chaerwain dîn.

>

>Some people use _na_ to express comparative, eg. _I 'wenn amman(_an_

>+ _ban_, I guess...) na le_(The girl is more beautiful than you), and

>here Elhath used _nu_(under). Which is correct, or he used _nu_ is

>because it is "deeper" than "ocean", or both are doable?



No, _nu_ means "before" here. The comparative prefix _an-_ is in

_tofn_ and _nûr_.



Elhath



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> > >Teniaid nín le ennyfn/ennuir nu aearon am i reviam hi a

> >rathar hae athan felais chaerwain dîn.

> >

> >Some people use _na_ to express comparative, eg. _I 'wenn amman

(_an_

> >+ _ban_, I guess...) na le_(The girl is more beautiful than you),

> No, _nu_ means "before" here. The comparative prefix _an-_ is in

> _tofn_ and _nûr_.



Then how to translate some sentences as "The girl is more beautiful

than you" into Sindarin? May be _I 'wenn amman le_? If so, that's

really a concise way for syntax :)



And how about the translation for "The higher you climb up, the

farther you see"? Can it be _Tirich aphalan ir am-badach

anorchal/enorchal/einorchal_?

lit. You see farther(_an_ + _palan_) when you up-walk(_am_ + _pada_)

higher(_an_ + _orchal_).



Here I'm not sure if I can use _am-bada_ as "to climb". I've taken

_oropada_(_orod_ + _pada_), _orodia_, _oroda_ into consideration. May

someone give me some advice? :)



> Elhath



Thanks for your reading my questions.



Meneg Suilaid..

michiru wrote:



>I would agree with Elhath here about the lenition after _dan_ as the

>meaning of "but"! The instructions by Helge K. Fauskanger inform me that

>_dan_ only triggers lenition as being a preposition. And I think it's a

>good way to distinguish if _dan_ is used as a conjunction or a preposition;

>though, as what you have said, it may not actually be attested! :)



My policy:

prep. _dan_ "against" + Soft. Mut.

adv. *_dan_ "but" (no Mutation); maybe sometimes *_dân_ would be

better to avoid mixup..?



> > No, _nu_ means "before" here. The comparative prefix _an-_ is in

> > _tofn_ and _nûr_.

>

>Then how to translate some sentences as "The girl is more beautiful

>than you" into Sindarin? May be _I 'wenn amman le_? If so, that's

>really a concise way for syntax :)



I dare not guess what the second element in your ?_amman_ is. For a

lack of a better substitute, I've utilized _nu_ "before" in the

place of "than" in my translation attempt, as one can obviously note.



>And how about the translation for "The higher you climb up, the

>farther you see"? Can it be _Tirich aphalan ir am-badach

>anorchal/enorchal/einorchal_?

>lit. You see farther(_an_ + _palan_) when you up-walk(_am_ + _pada_)

>higher(_an_ + _orchal_).



_Anorchal_, I think.



>Here I'm not sure if I can use _am-bada_ as "to climb". I've taken

>_oropada_(_orod_ + _pada_), _orodia_, _oroda_ into consideration. May

>someone give me some advice? :)



As for the product, it would probably be *_ambada-_, though someone

might still want to confirm that it wouldn't be *_ammada-_... I'm not

100% sure.



Elhath, still on a VERY tight schedule



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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhath *" <sp12@h...> wrote:

> michiru wrote:



Welcome back, Elhath (even if for a just a few minutes)!



> My policy:

> prep. _dan_ "against" + Soft. Mut.

> adv. *_dan_ "but" (no Mutation); maybe sometimes *_dân_ would be

> better to avoid mixup..?



Doesn't _dan_ (prep) trigger nasal mutation?



I like your policy - helps clear up meanings.  What about _na_ when

used as a genitive marker?  Does it trigger lenition as it does when

it is a prep.?  Similar policy?

> My policy:

> prep. _dan_ "against" + Soft. Mut.

> adv. *_dan_ "but" (no Mutation); maybe sometimes *_dân_

would be

> better to avoid mixup..?



Yeah...That's what I adapt now! I will also adapt your

da^n :)



> I dare not guess what the second element in your ?_amman_

is.



_an_ + _ban_ > _amman_ according to nasal mutation, but I

think I make a mistake :P Then what will you combine _an_

and _ban_?



>For a

> lack of a better substitute, I've utilized _nu_ "before"

in the

> place of "than" in my translation attempt, as one can

obviously note.



Now I know a new substitute from you! I may use it until

there is a true substitute by Tokien being found.



> >And how about the translation for "The higher you climb

up, the

> >farther you see"? Can it be _Tirich aphalan ir am-badach

> >anorchal/enorchal/einorchal_?

> >lit. You see farther(_an_ + _palan_) when you up-walk

(_am_ + _pada_)

> >higher(_an_ + _orchal_).

> >Here I'm not sure if I can use _am-bada_ as "to climb".

> As for the product, it would probably be *_ambada-_,

though someone

> might still want to confirm that it wouldn't be *_ammada-

_... I'm not

> 100% sure.

> Elhath, still on a VERY tight schedule



I'm sorry for having occupied your time ><... Thanks again

for your reading my questions!



Meneg Suilaid

Teithant Elhath:

>My policy:

>prep. _dan_ "against" + Soft. Mut.



Soft? Why not nasal mutation as in Helge's 'Sindarin: the Noble Tongue'

article?



Cuio mae, Danny.

Michiru deithant:



>>I'm not sure if I can use _am-bada_ as "to climb". <<



I had asked about this not long ago and someone suggested amrotha- from

Amroth "up-climb".



Tara

--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Taramiluiel"

<taramiluiel@c...> wrote:

> >>I'm not sure if I can use _am-bada_ as "to climb". <<

> I had asked about this not long ago and someone suggested

amrotha- from

> Amroth "up-climb".

> Tara



Oh! I'm sorry for having asked an old question again ><...



Meneg Suilaid

brethwen wrote:



> > My policy:

> > prep. _dan_ "against" + Soft. Mut.

> > adv. *_dan_ "but" (no Mutation); maybe sometimes *_dân_ would be

> > better to avoid mixup..?

>

>Doesn't _dan_ (prep) trigger nasal mutation?



Probably does, I don't have time to check things much from where I'm

writing now, so sometimes I just have to rely on my memory of which

I've already warned people (or now at least have!). I apologize.



>I like your policy - helps clear up meanings.  What about _na_ when

>used as a genitive marker? Does it trigger lenition as it does when

>it is a prep.?  Similar policy?



Is there a definite attestation of its use as a "genitive marker", or

do you just mean one of its two prepositional meanings, "at, with" and

"by the means of" (probably the former)? So far AFAIR these both would

trigger Soft..?



Elhath



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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhath *" <sp12@h...> wrote:



> Is there a definite attestation of its use as a "genitive marker",

or

> do you just mean one of its two prepositional meanings, "at, with"

and

> "by the means of" (probably the former)? So far AFAIR these both

would

> trigger Soft..?



I really had to hunt to find where I had read that!  Found it in

Dragon Flame: [Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary (Edition 1.5, Lexicon

0.99)] na* [nɑ] prep. 1.  with,  by (also used as a genitive sign).



I don't know of attested use as a genetive marker.  I think that's

what D. Salo intended in the Elbereth lyrics (FotR extended DVD):

Ithil nâ thûl . . .  but that's the only place I can remember seeing

it.

Teithant michiru



>Yeah...That's what I adapt now! I will also adapt your

>da^n :)



_Dan_ for "against" has the mutation (Nasal), so that might be

enough to distinguish from "but" (remember Tolkien kept his

language very "tight"), but IMHO *_dân_ is not unimaginable

either, on the basis of words in related languages (and the

root).



> > I dare not guess what the second element in your ?_amman_

>is.

>

>_an_ + _ban_ > _amman_ according to nasal mutation, but I

>think I make a mistake :P Then what will you combine _an_

>and _ban_?



Though I don't remember what _ban_ means right now, I can tell

that the dative would indeed be _am man_... unless _ban_ comes

from an MB-root, in which case it'd be _am mban_.



> >For a

> > lack of a better substitute, I've utilized _nu_ "before"

>in the

> > place of "than" in my translation attempt, as one can

>obviously note.

>

>Now I know a new substitute from you! I may use it until

>there is a true substitute by Tokien being found.



So far I don't remember anything else (i.e. better ;))...



Elhath



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--- elhath * <sp12@...> wrote: > Helkabeleth

wrote:

>

> >Does Sindarin make a distinction between transitive

> and intransitive

> >verbs? If I want to say "We will meet," can I use

> _govaditham_, or

> >would I have to say _govadithan le_?

>

>

> We will meet = _geveditham_ according to Helge's

> theory

> I don't understand ?_govadithan_...



In H.Fauskanger's NHO _govad_ already contains

preposition "with" prefixed to the verb as _go_. So,

_gevedithon le_ (if that's indeed what you want to

say)will probably mean "I'll meet with you". If you

see it as a variant of "we will meet", then both could

probably work...



Lena







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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhath *" <sp12@h...> wrote:

[...]

> We will meet = _geveditham_ according to Helge's theory

> I don't understand ?_govadithan_...

>

> Elhath



I'm sorry, I missed the change from _govad-_ > _geveditha_.  I suppose my real

question, then, is "can _geveditham_ act both as transitive "we will meet [him,

them]" and intransitive "we will meet [each other]?"  I see that Lena believes

so... do we have any evidence on this?

Teithant Helkabeleth



>--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "elhath *" <sp12@h...> wrote:

>[...]

> > We will meet = _geveditham_ according to Helge's theory

> > I don't understand ?_govadithan_...

> >

> > Elhath

>

>I'm sorry, I missed the change from _govad-_ > _geveditha_.  I suppose my

>real question, then, is "can _geveditham_ act both as transitive "we will

>meet [him, them]" and intransitive "we will meet [each other]?"  I see that

>Lena believes so... do we have any evidence on this?



The entire present/infinitive stem _gevedi-_ is just theoretical

AFAIK btw, based on the i-umlaut in other verbs. As for its usage, I

think it can be used similarly to English/Finnish; in the latter you

can also say _(Me) tapaamme hänet/heidät._ or just _(Me) tapaamme._ (in

the sense "we, you and I, will meet each other" -- adding _toisemme_ to

this sounds proper IMHO only if the other person talked about is not

present).



Elhath



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