Helge --



Thanks so much for your response!



I was using the perfect rather than the simple past for

rhythm -- so I could start with an unaccented syllable.

I'm not aiming to have the same unstressed-stressed

pattern as in the English version, partly because as

you point out it doesn't work. I'm content just to have

seven stresses per line, more or less evenly spaced.



I wrote:

>> Iliirien lasses, laurie lasses, laurie lassi orortie.

>> Iliirien suures, san suure utuulie, aldaron olvassen awaiwie.



the first word is "iliirien" -- perfect with the augment (drat

that capital I-small l confusion!).



>_Liirien_ looks like an (unaugmented) perfect "I have sung" rather than the

>regular past tense "I sang", _lirnen_. If you need three syllables with the

>same stress pattern, I would use another word for "sing", _linda-_, and say

>_lindanen_ instead.



good suggestion.



>We know from phrases like _Quenta Silmarillion_ that the genitive can mean

>"about, concerning" (the Story OF the Silmarils).



I knew it was in there somewhere -- I just couldn't

find it with my brain. Thanks.



>_Awaiwie_ for "blew" is based on the stem WAIWA "blow" in Etym, I guess?

>(LR:397)



yes. I like the onomatopoeia.



Again, this looks more like a perfect (here with augment and all)

>than a past tense, and this is also true of _utuulie_ and _orortie_ (the

>latter must in any case be pl. _orortier_ to agree with its subject

>_lassi_).



Yes, I was keeping all the verbs in the perfect for

rhythmic reasons. Simple past of WAIWA would be

"waiwane", right?



>* "Arose", bad translation of "grew"; _aller_ may be an alternative, since

>the stem GAL is glossed "grow" in Letters somewhere and this could produce

>a Quenya verb *_al-_ "grow" (cf. _'al_ "thrive" in Etym, LR:357).



Is there a word for "fold"? Because "unfold" would also

do, if I could derive it. How do you make compound verbs?

If I could combine the stems AL and PAT, it might mean

"open up, as a leaf or flower: grow into fullness".



Helge's straightforward translation:

>Lirnen(ye) [OR: lindanen(ye)] lassion, lassion laureva, ar lassi laureva

>ortaner*

>Lirnen(ye) suurio, suure tulle, ar i olwassen laustane.



Fiddled a bit, formatted to show stresses:



LindANenye LASsion, LASsion LAUReva, LAUReva LASsi [unfolded].

LindANenye SUURio, SUURe ya TULLe, ar [something] olWASsen WAIwane



Seeing it laid out like this, I *really* want to end the

first line with a word beginning with L, or at least having

L in it!



Any more ideas?



Mary Ellen

Doctor Science, MA

http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/goodbook

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>Indeed I can't construct ANY

>monosyllabic past tense form in Quenya.

>

>- HF



Unless the past tense of _naa_ really is _nee_. But that's perhaps not much

help with the poem.



                             Andreas

______________________________________________________

Mary Ellen Curtin wrote:



> I need a Quenya translation of the first few lines of Galadriel's Song,

"I sang of leaves" for a story I'm writing.



> I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

> I sang of wind, a wind there came, and in the branches blew.



> Iliirien lasses, laurie lasses, laurie lassi orortie.

> Iliirien suures, san suure utuulie, aldaron olvassen awaiwie.



_Liirien_ looks like an (unaugmented) perfect "I have sung" rather than the

regular past tense "I sang", _lirnen_. If you need three syllables with the

same stress pattern, I would use another word for "sing", _linda-_, and say

_lindanen_ instead.



_Awaiwie_ for "blew" is based on the stem WAIWA "blow" in Etym, I guess?

(LR:397) Again, this looks more like a perfect (here with augment and all)

than a past tense, and this is also true of _utuulie_ and _orortie_ (the

latter must in any case be pl. _orortier_ to agree with its subject

_lassi_).



Difficult to translate "blow"; we may revive the "Qenya" verb _lausta-_,

used of the wind in an early poem: Tolkien stated that when the wind

"lausted", it meant "not 'roared' or 'rushed' but made a windy noise".



> For "lasses" and "suures" I'm using the relational inflection,  because

the "of" is really "about, concerning" and I couldn't fit that into easily

into the genitive or instrumental boxes as I understand them.



We know from phrases like _Quenta Silmarillion_ that the genitive can mean

"about, concerning" (the Story OF the Silmarils). But if you want to use

the "Mystery Case" instead, the plural "leaves" is _lassis_ (_lasses_ being

the singular).



> The last phrase of the second line is giving me trouble because of the

rhythm. Are the stresses indeed  al'daron ol'vassen awai'wie? I put in the

"aldaron" to make the line scan; I might need to fiddle with it some more



The stresses would be ALDaron olVASSen aWAIwie.



My own attempts to translate the first lines of this song:



Straightforward translation by meaning:



Lirnen(ye) [OR: lindanen(ye)] lassion, lassion laureva, ar lassi laureva

ortaner*

Lirnen(ye) suurio, suure tulle, ar i olwassen laustane.



* "Arose", bad translation of "grew"; _aller_ may be an alternative, since

the stem GAL is glossed "grow" in Letters somewhere and this could produce

a Quenya verb *_al-_ "grow" (cf. _'al_ "thrive" in Etym, LR:357).



It is very difficult to preserve the original rhythm of "I sang of leaves,

of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew / I sang of wind, a wind

there came, and in the branches blew." In particular, it is almost

impossible to have a stressed syllable at the end of a sentence. Quenya

word-forms and stress-patterns rarely allow such a thing.  If you say

_lirnenye lassis, laure lassis; laure lassi [grew]_ (I sang of leaves,

gold-colour leaves; gold-colour leaves [grew]), you have the same pattern

of seven times unstressed+stressed as in the original - but I cannot

translate "grew" as a single syllable. Indeed I can't construct ANY

monosyllabic past tense form in Quenya.



- HF

I need a Quenya translation of the first few lines of

Galadriel's Song, "I sang of leaves" for a story I'm

writing.  I have used Katherine Thorhammer's translation

(elfling message #1549) and the comments of Josu

Gomez and Ales Bican as my guide.



One of my goals is to end up with something that

scans -- rhyming would be nice, but is highly optional.



Here's what I have for the first two lines:



I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.

I sang of wind, a wind there came, and in the branches blew.



Iliirien lasses, laurie lasses, laurie lassi orortie.

  -|--|-,|--|-,|--|--|--

Iliirien suures, san suure utuulie, aldaron olvassen awaiwie.

  -|--|-,-|--|--, |--|---|--



Doubled vowels=accent over vowel.



For "lasses" and "suures" I'm using the relational inflection,

because the "of" is really "about, concerning" and I couldn't

fit that into easily into the genitive or instrumental boxes as

I understand them.



The last phrase of the second line is giving me trouble

because of the rhythm. Are the stresses indeed

al'daron ol'vassen awai'wie? I put in the "aldaron" to

make the line scan; I might need to fiddle with it some

more.



Mary Ellen

Doctor Science, MA

http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/goodbook

Now featuring: Good Book of the Millennium

  - - - - - - - - -

Good Book of the 17th Century:

"Hamlet," by William Shakespeare