At 10:01 pm +0100 31/1/00, Didier Willis wrote:
>> >I agree about Tolkien's reference (and I never said _loch_ was
>> >Welsh; that was Didier ;-)
>>
>> Sorry - I know it was not you.  I'm sorry if I implied it was.
>
>Oups. I am the culprit... and I had CJRT's note before me, "CH
>always has the value of ch in *Scotch* loch or German buch" [my
>emphasis] =:*)

Ooh - did CJRT really write 'Scotch'?  I guess he did.  But FWIW Scots
people seem to prefer 'Scots' or 'Scottish', reserving 'Scotch' strictly
for the distilled malt beverage.

>
>The Harrap's dictionary has [X] for that one too: [lOX].

I wonder if Harrap's is just using Greek chi to represent [x].  Certainly
I've not come across any other pronunciation of 'loch' (except, of course,
the anglicized [lOk]  :)

>Thanks for all your comments, anyway. As suggested, I'll probably
>use [x] my dictionary project (after all this is rather a question
>of convention, there was probably several dialectal variants).

I'm absolutely sure [x] is what CJRT meant.

>Diphtongs /ae/ and /ai/ will be represented as [A3] and [Aj]
>respectively.

Yep - that looks good to me.

>First public release planned for mid-February, perhaps even a
>little earlier.

Look forward to it   :)
Pob hwyl!
Bonne chance!

Ray.


=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                    [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

> > >Yes, [x] is the IPA symbol for a voiceless velar fricative.
> >
> > no offense but what's one of them when it's at home?
>
>Well, I'm not sure what you're asking, but the way phonemes (sounds) are
>described is by:
>
>Voicedness--do the vocal cords moved when this sound is made.
>
>Place of Articulation-- where the tongue is in the mouth.
>
>Kind of sound-- fricative=narrow closure between tongue and place of
>articulation, stop=full closure.
>
>Candon

Thanks, what other info can I find on this subject?

Greg
______________________________________________________

Raymond Brown wrote:

> Ooh - did CJRT really write 'Scotch'?  I guess he did.  But FWIW Scots
> people seem to prefer 'Scots' or 'Scottish', reserving 'Scotch' strictly
> for the distilled malt beverage.

Probably reflecting older Scots usage.  Boswell, e.g., did not
hesitate to write "Scotch [language]", "Scotchman", and so on.

IIRC, "Scotch" is also applied to other culinary items such as
"Scotch eggs" (hard(-boiled) eggs coated with sausage meat
and bread crumbs and then deep-fried in oil).  And the saying is
still "A Scotch [not Scots or Scottish] mist will wet an
Englishman to the skin," hence "Scotch mist" = "downpour,
heavy thunderstorm".

--

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,  || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,           || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.            -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

At 17:12 +0100 29.1.2000, Raymond Brown wrote:
>>Even if JRRT was probably well aware of different pronu8nciations of Welsh
>>I think it very unlikely that he had a pronunciation of _ae_ as [e_"i] with
>
>[a_"i] or SAMPA [a1]

Ai!  Typo!

[snip]
>In fact, of course, JRRT introduced the non-Welsh [y] into Sindarin instead
>of [1]; possibly because he like the sound better (many find [1] 'ugly'),
>or he thought his readers would find the sound easier, or both.

Rather because another, often overlooked, influence on S. was Old English! :-)

BTW, isn't Welsh /"i/ historically derived from a front rounded vowel?

>But, and I apologize for not making myself clearer, what I had in mind was
>not [a1], so much as [aI] or [ae].
>
>>I find it much more likely
>>that either he had in mind a situation where there was of old a dialectal
>>variation between [ai] and [e:] in the pronunciation of the reflex of *ai,
>>while _ai_ derived from palatalization, as in _edain_ was [ai] everywhere,
>
>I agree with the latter statement that {ai} is probably meant to represent
>a sound that was [ai] everywhere, and also that {ae} (and, of course, {oe})
>probably represented a sound that had dialect variation.
>
>But I don't see any evidence for [e:].

True, but there is evidence for /ae/ merging with /e/: the name Legolas, as
I mentioned already, and also Egalmoth, which seems to be a Gondorean
Westron corruption of Aegamloth.  I wouldn't be surprised if David Salo can
fill in further examples.  I certainly won't feel bad for pronouncing /ae/
as [E:], since there is nothing it can be confused with.  I would attempt
[a&Ee] when careful, however! :-)


/BP

  B.Philip Jonsson  <mailto: bpj@...> <mailto: melroch@...>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
             Anant' avanaute quettalmar!               \ \
    __  ____ ____    _____________  ___ __   __ __     / /
    \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
    / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
   / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
  /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
I neer Pityancalimeo\ \_____/ /ar/ /_atar Mercasso naan
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

This thread is getting away from Tolkien & things elven.  Maybe it's a sign
that it's changing from simply a list of people interested for one reason
or another in JRRT & his writings into (to coin a phrase by some on another
list John & I belong to) a bunch of chums who are interested in JRRT & his
world.

At 1:48 pm -0500 2/2/00, John Cowan wrote:
>Raymond Brown wrote:
>
>> Ooh - did CJRT really write 'Scotch'?  I guess he did.  But FWIW Scots
>> people seem to prefer 'Scots' or 'Scottish', reserving 'Scotch' strictly
>> for the distilled malt beverage.
>
>Probably reflecting older Scots usage.  Boswell, e.g., did not
>hesitate to write "Scotch [language]", "Scotchman", and so on.

The word also occurred in some Scots dialects - but is now resented by many
Scots when used to mean "pertaining to Scotland", probably because of its
use by the English to mean "miserly, excessively protective of one's
property".

>IIRC, "Scotch" is also applied to other culinary items such as
>"Scotch eggs" (hard(-boiled) eggs coated with sausage meat
>and bread crumbs and then deep-fried in oil).

and -
Scotch attorney - a climber (Clusia) that strangles trees
Scotch barley - pot or hulled barley
Scotch broth - broth made with pot-barley & plenty of finely chopped vegetables
Scotch elm - the wych-elm (Ulmus montana)
etc.

But the noble fir tree or pine, sometimes called Scotch pine or Scotch fir,
is more commonly known as Scots pine (Pinus sylvestris); it's the only
native Brit pine.

>And the saying is
>still "A Scotch [not Scots or Scottish] mist will wet an
>Englishman to the skin," hence "Scotch mist" = "downpour,
>heavy thunderstorm".

That must be an American usage.  No doubt the meaning has changed on a
continental land mass which has very different climatic conditions than our
relatively small northern island washed by Gulf Stream.

Here it has retained its original meaning of very fine mist-like rain -
common enough especially on the west side of our island as the mist warm
air comes off the Atlantic - the sort of weather the Irish call 'soft'
('Tis a lovely soft day!).  If one has ever experienced the genuine article
in western Scotland, one never forgets a real Scotch mist.  No thunder - no
heavy downpour - but it does indeed wet one to the skin; the dampness is
everywhere in the fine, soft rain - it'll find its way through whatever you
wear  :)

Ray.


=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                    [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

> >>I find it much more likely
> >>that either he had in mind a situation where there was of old a
>dialectal
> >>variation between [ai] and [e:] in the pronunciation of the reflex of
>*ai,
> >>while _ai_ derived from palatalization, as in _edain_ was [ai]
>everywhere,
> >
> >I agree with the latter statement that {ai} is probably meant to
>represent
> >a sound that was [ai] everywhere, and also that {ae} (and, of course,
>{oe})
> >probably represented a sound that had dialect variation.
> >
> >But I don't see any evidence for [e:].
>
>True, but there is evidence for /ae/ merging with /e/: the name Legolas, as
>I mentioned already, and also Egalmoth, which seems to be a Gondorean
>Westron corruption of Aegamloth.  I wouldn't be surprised if David Salo can
>fill in further examples.  I certainly won't feel bad for pronouncing /ae/
>as [E:], since there is nothing it can be confused with.  I would attempt
>[a&Ee] when careful, however! :-)
>
>
>/BP

On the same page in WJ (don't have the book here right now so I can't give
the page) that we read about Egalmoth/Aegalmoth, we also read that the
"true" form of Ecthelion is actually _Aegthelion_. Since postvocalic _c_
doesn't fit Sindarin phonology very well, "Ecthelion" can perhaps also be
seen as a mannish form.

                                Andreas

PS it seems clear from WJ that these _aeg-_ forms of these names are, in
"real time", secondary re-etymologizations on JRRT's part: the _ec-_/_eg-_
forms are the original ones.
______________________________________________________

Raymond Brown wrote:

> But the noble fir tree or pine, sometimes called Scotch pine or Scotch fir,
> is more commonly known as Scots pine (Pinus sylvestris); it's the only
> native Brit pine.

"Scotch pine" here.

> >And the saying is
> >still "A Scotch [not Scots or Scottish] mist will wet an
> >Englishman to the skin," hence "Scotch mist" = "downpour,
> >heavy thunderstorm".
>
> That must be an American usage.

It's not live usage for me; I've only read it in books.
Perhaps I simply misunderstood.

--

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,  || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau,           || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.            -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

At 10:44 pm +0100 1/2/00, BP Jonsson wrote:
>At 17:12 +0100 29.1.2000, Raymond Brown wrote:
[....]
>>In fact, of course, JRRT introduced the non-Welsh [y] into Sindarin instead
>>of [1]; possibly because he like the sound better (many find [1] 'ugly'),
>>or he thought his readers would find the sound easier, or both.
>
>Rather because another, often overlooked, influence on S. was Old English! :-)

Yes, that would indeed be so.

>BTW, isn't Welsh /"i/ historically derived from a front rounded vowel?

I doubt it very much.  What is without question is that the sound began as
[u] in ancient British.  But it is unlikely, I think, that the sound moved
from a back vowel to a front vowel before shifting again to a high
_central_ position - and the modern north Walian {u} is most definitely the
high central [1] (IPA barred-i).

Surely, the most plausible scenario is that ancient British [u] shifted to
the high central rounded vowel - IPA barred-u, written [}] in SAMPA.  That
vowel, I believe, occurs in Swedish and certainly occurs today in some
dialects of the Scottish Lowlands and the six counties of Northern Ireland.
This vowel was later unrounded, giving the modern north Walian
pronunciation.

It may be that the sound was fronted in south Wales to [y] before becoming
the modern south Walian [i], but AFAIK there is no direct evidence of this.
The south Walian sound could just as well have developed as a fronting of
[1].

[y] does occur in Breton, but this cannot be used as evidence for any
insular pronunciation of {u}, since [y] could well have developed from
either [1] or [}] under French influence.  In the Kemmyn version of revived
Cornish, [y] also occurs.  But as with all reconstructed pronunciations of
'dead' language, there is necessarily some guess-work involved; unless we
have a time machine that allows us to travel back to the 16th cent. we
cannot be certain, methinks, whether Middle Cornish {u} was [y], [1] or [}].

As I see it, the inclusion of [y] is one of Tolkien's happy touches that
gives Sindarin individuality and makes it no amateurish "Welsh-clone", but
the skillful blending of diverse ingedients by a master craftsman to
produce something unique & distinctive.

Ray.

=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                    [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

>Surely, the most plausible scenario is that ancient British [u] shifted to
>the high central rounded vowel - IPA barred-u, written [}] in SAMPA.  That
>vowel, I believe, occurs in Swedish and certainly occurs today in some
>dialects of the Scottish Lowlands and the six counties of Northern Ireland.

It is one of the pronunciation variants of the Swedish phoneme written "u".
It's more common in Norwegian dialects I believe. The commonest variant in
Swedish is a (very) rounded front vowel, between [y] and the "o with a
slash" sound (SAMPA [2]?) when long. When short it's more like vary rounded
schwa.

                                      Andreas
______________________________________________________

Raymond Brown wrote:

> >BTW, isn't Welsh /"i/ historically derived from a front rounded vowel?
>
> I doubt it very much.  What is without question is that the sound began as
> [u] in ancient British.  But it is unlikely, I think, that the sound moved
> from a back vowel to a front vowel before shifting again to a high
> _central_ position - and the modern north Walian {u} is most definitely the
> high central [1] (IPA barred-i).

You're both sort of right.  Welsh orthographic 'y' and 'u' both
represent the barred-i sound. 'y' comes from Brittonic [I] (or short
[i]), whereas 'u' comes from the Brittonic diphthongs au, ou, eu, oi.

'u' was a rounded high central vowel (IPA barred-u) in Middle Welsh,
which became unrounded in the modern Welsh period, and fell together
with 'y,' which has always been unrounded.  In South Wales orthographic
'u' & 'y' represent [i].

See Kenneth Jackson _Language and History in Early Brittian_.

Candon

BP Jonsson wrote:

>
> There are also Danian -- a different language from Tolkien's later
> conception of the languages of the Danian Elves! --, Ossiriandeb and
> Leikvian mentioned in the Lhammas, and the dialects called "Silvan" --
> "Wood-Elvish -- from _silva_, the Latin word for "forest -- which are the
> Nandorin dialects in the later conception of the family-tree of Elvish
> languages.  The question is rather: how many of these languages are just
> names, how many were worked out to some degree with phonology, morphology
> and vocabulary, and which were developed more fully.

**Yes that's it. I know. The question 'How many languages did Tolkien
invent' is misleading and hardly answerable. But it's laid in Elfaqs after all.

So how many languages are only names - I think we can write down the
list of it. The elvish ones are relatively easy. What about Mannish languages?

>  The published Adunaic
> grammar, which breaks off some way into the morphology chapter is alas not
> atypical compared to most active conlangers experience!  My bet is that
> Tolkien may have worked out Telerin, Khuzdul and Westron to about the same
> degree as he did Adunaic, and probably the general traits of Doriathrin,
> Danian, Rohirren and the Black Speech.  Quenya and Sindarin are most likely
> the only languages Tolkien developed to a "literary" level, unless he felt
> some fictional need to go further with some other language at some point,
> and he probably could determine the Telerin equivalent of any Quenya or
> Sindarin  form "on the fly", but all that we can only guess about.  A
> thorough investigation of the materials Tolkien left behind would probably
> turn up a fair amount of new information, but I wouldn't expect a lot of
> finished work on other languages to show up!

**Nevertheless we'd like to see them finally.


Ales Bican

Candon Clannach wrote:

>
> OK.  How about this for some fun aliteration:
>
> Lindala lír' andave lende 'singing a song, long (he) traveled'

**You think that _linda_ could be "sing", when _Lindar_ are
"Singers"? But we have _lirin_ for "I sing" attested. What about
_liirala linde andave lende_ or _liirala lind' andave lende_ keeping
the same number of syllables.

> How about this:
>
> _Undu mórwa tumbar_ 'down dark-night's valleys'

**I'd say rather _undu tumbar morwa_.


Ales Bican

Tandra Chu wrote:

>    1. Sindacollo Lestanoressë.

**We have only attested genitive _Lestanooreo_  and a locative
would be _Lestanooresse_ then, but _Lestanoresse_ would be
an locative of _Lestanor_, the shorter form of _Lestanoore_,
though none of it we have attested.
We have _Valinor_ and _Valinoore_ - I think that Tolkien used
_Valinor_ more often, for it's more friendly to english than
_Valinoore_.

> 1. Aran eänë yárassë

**_Eane_ as pa.t. of _ea_ is not attested, but if it is regular, then
it'd look somehow as this.
You mean _yaaresse_, for _yaara_ is an adjective "ancient", while
_yaare_ means "former days".

> 2. nó Atani vantanë cemenessë

**_Noo_ is probably from QL, isn't it? For Helge's indexes meantion
"before in time" - I can say whether _noo_ is right, for I didn't
receive the ordered Lexicon yet : (
_Vantane_ must agree in number with _Atani_, hence _vantaner_.

> 3. túrerya né ortaina hróto lumbulessë,

**_Tuure_ in Etym is glossed "mastery, victory".

> 5. Lassiva rierya, laiqua collarya

**A possessive of _lasse_ would be _lasseeva_.

> 9. Aparissë, irë i hrestanna

**_Apare_ - "After-day"? "In After-days" then would be _Aparessen_.

> 11. i Eldarimbë arwa valo entullë,

**_Vala_ refers to "Valar", though it means "power". And exiled Noldor
had nothing to deal with Valar, when they returned to M-E.

> 13. irë arani Eldamaro lendë ara

**_Lender_ - agreeing with _arani_.

> 14. arwa tuo ohto, nu i menel

**_Menel_ seems to be one of such words that needn't have
an article.

> 18. Lestanorëo (beleaguered?) nóressë,

**We just have attested genitive _Lestanooreo_ in WJ.

> 20. lintarmië sarna rondossen:

**_Sarne_ as plural.

> 21. tanomë hyellemíre, marilla, ar néca mirilondo,

**_Mirilondo_?

> 23. turmallë ar (corslet?), pelecca ar macil,

**You mean _pelecco_.

> 25. ilyë sínë haryanéro ar nontero pitya,

**_Nenteero_ probably.

> 26. an melda ilya autë mardessë pella,

**We don't know how we could form comparative forms, but
Helge once gave an idea that we *could* write this: _melda or
ilya aute_ - "dear over all wealth".

> 27. ar vánima híni Atanion pella,

**First you mean _vanima_ and second it *could* be _vanima
or hini_.


Ales Bican

ps. Right now I have no idea of words you requested.

At 19:43 +0100 4.2.2000, Raymond Brown wrote:
>
>>BTW, isn't Welsh /"i/ historically derived from a front rounded vowel?
>
>I doubt it very much.  What is without question is that the sound began as
>[u] in ancient British.  But it is unlikely, I think, that the sound moved
>from a back vowel to a front vowel before shifting again to a high
>_central_ position - and the modern north Walian {u} is most definitely the
>high central [1] (IPA barred-i).
>
>Surely, the most plausible scenario is that ancient British [u] shifted to
>the high central rounded vowel - IPA barred-u, written [}] in SAMPA.  That
>vowel, I believe, occurs in Swedish and certainly occurs today in some
>dialects of the Scottish Lowlands and the six counties of Northern Ireland.
>This vowel was later unrounded, giving the modern north Walian
>pronunciation.

That figures.  My source uses an italic, unbracketed {ü} (i.e. u-umlaut)
for the supposed Proto-Cambro-Bretonic sound.  I thought the German sound
of that letter was meant, but obviously it was intended to have its (old)
IPA value.

For Breton /y/, one can of course not rule out French influence!

BTW it just occurs to me that the presence of /y/ in Sindarin may have
something to do also with its presence in Middle English, remembering that
ME was the focus of JRRT's scholarly work.



/BP

  B.Philip Jonsson  <mailto: bpj@...> <mailto: melroch@...>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
             Anant' avanaute quettalmar!               \ \
    __  ____ ____    _____________  ___ __   __ __     / /
    \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
    / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
   / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
  /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
I neer Pityancalimeo\ \_____/ /ar/ /_atar Mercasso naan
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

At 04:54 -0800 5.2.2000, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
>>Surely, the most plausible scenario is that ancient British [u] shifted to
>>the high central rounded vowel - IPA barred-u, written [}] in SAMPA.  That
>>vowel, I believe, occurs in Swedish and certainly occurs today in some
>>dialects of the Scottish Lowlands and the six counties of Northern Ireland.
>
>It is one of the pronunciation variants of the Swedish phoneme written "u".
>It's more common in Norwegian dialects I believe. The commonest variant in
>Swedish is a (very) rounded front vowel, between [y] and the "o with a
>slash" sound (SAMPA [2]?) when long. When short it's more like vary rounded
>schwa.
>
>

Using Ladefoged's definitions of rounding as horizontal adduction of the
corners of the lips and labialization as vertical adduction of the centers
of the lips one may characterize Swedish "u" as labialized while "ö" is
rounded and non-labialized.  All Swedish back vowels are also more or less
labialized; while strictly not necessary for their description there are
several phonological processes where the labialized front vowel "u"
patterns with the back vowels.



/BP

  B.Philip Jonsson  <mailto: bpj@...> <mailto: melroch@...>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
             Anant' avanaute quettalmar!               \ \
    __  ____ ____    _____________  ___ __   __ __     / /
    \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
    / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
   / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
  /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
I neer Pityancalimeo\ \_____/ /ar/ /_atar Mercasso naan
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

I am interested in finding a translation of the name 'Thranduil'. There
seems to be no translation attested to in the corpus. Any suggestions
are welcome.

I am noticing some confusion about what is and isn't on-topic on
Elfling, and what my reaction to off-topic posts is. I never formulated a
comprehensive statement on topicality because I didn't think one was
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	 Comments and suggestions are welcome in my email (not on the list,
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	 I hope these guidelines relieve some anxiety, and do not represent
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	 In other news, the Elfling FAQ is overdue for a rewrite, and I
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	 I am also working on getting the Tolkien Linguistics Webring, which
I am about to rename Ungwecorma, up to speed. Ardalambion and Hisweloke
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http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/tolkienlangs.html . If you would like to
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	 (I do apologize for being so dilatory with Ungwecorma. To my vast
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though, that Elfling comes first!)

Dorothea

--------------------------

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how do you pronounce Quenya? is there a right way? is
there a easy way to learn?

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Hi,

I looked through Helge's dictionary and can't seem to find a word that means
"object" or "thing" in the "inanimate object" sense...

I'm trying to come up with something that means "Maker of Things", but all I
have is Dano (Maker of)..

Thank you,

Dominik R. Rabiej
email@...
http://www.dominik.net/
http://www.teenhealthnet.com/

In Quenya there is the word engwa "thing" or nat. In
Noldorin this last word becomes nad.

I have no idea if Q. nat or N. nad survived in Tolkien's
later conception.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: Dominik Rabiej <email@...>
To: <elfling@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 1:25 AM
Subject: [elfling] Expressing the Concept of Thing...


> Hi,
>
> I looked through Helge's dictionary and can't seem to find
a word that means
> "object" or "thing" in the "inanimate object" sense...
>
> I'm trying to come up with something that means "Maker of
Things", but all I
> have is Dano (Maker of)..
>

--- Patrick Norton <elfling@egroups.com> wrote:
>how do you pronounce Quenya? is there a right way? is
>there a easy way to learn?

The question of the right way to pronounce any language is complex.  There a 
doubtless dialectical variations.   The pronounciation guides in the
Silmarillion and LotR provide the basics and are the most definitive works on
the subject. On the internet try
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/pronguide.html for theory as well as
some .wav files.

Namarie,
Cirk R. Bejnar
Eluchil


_____________________________________________________________
FREE E-Mail http://www.frodo.com

> I have no idea if Q. nat or N. nad survived in Tolkien's
> later conception.

We have _uunat_ for "impossible thing" in a source dating from ca. 1960, so
_nat_ must still be valid. (This is the same source that has _engwe_ for
"thing", so one does not exclude the other.)

> > I'm trying to come up with something that means "Maker of Things", but
all I have is Dano (Maker of)..

_Tano_, you mean? _Nattano_ or _Engwetan(o)_ may do. Or _Engwecarno_,
_Engwecarmo_, _Engwecarindo_; all of these mean "Thing-maker". Or
analytical _Carindo Nation_, or _Tano Engwion_, of whatever combination you
prefer.

- HF

David A. Lint wrote:
> In Quenya there is the word engwa "thing" or nat. In
> Noldorin this last word becomes nad.
>
> I have no idea if Q. nat or N. nad survived in Tolkien's
> later conception.

the word _uunat_, plural _uunati_, occurs in the
Osanwe-kenta (1959-1960?), and means "a thing impossible
to be or to be done". It is conceivably composed of the
negation particle _uu_ and the word _nat_ "thing".

[Source: Vinyar Tengwar #39, page 33]

Didier.

Greg Dyke wrote:

> Thanks, what other info can I find on this subject?

I think any intro to Linguistics class would be a good start, but
failing that you could try and find an intro text book.  We used
_Contemporary Linguistics: an Introduction_ by William O'Grady et. al.

Also see:

_A Course In Phonetics_ by Peter Ladefoged

_Phonology_ by Andrew Spencer

_Phonetic Symbol Guide_ by Geoffrey Pulluman, William Ladusaw

This last is almost indispensable as it covers IPA usage, American
usage, and older usages, e.g. the use of umlaut 'u' (ü) for IPA barred
'u.'

Hope this gives you a good start!

Candon

Aiya!

How should I say "favourite" in Quenya? There is an entry in Qenya Lexicon
but I haven't got one :(
Could its happy owners help me?

Another way is to 'make' a word for "preferred". This one is much more
interesting: we've got (Latin)
_pr(a)e-_ + _ferre_ = (English) _forward / through / forth / front / first_
+ _carry_.

The latter isn't a problem - Q _col-_ for "carry, bear". But what stem
should I use for the first part? I've found these ones:

_ANA_ - to, towards
_NIB_ - face, front
_ING_ - first, foremost
_YESE_ - precede

Also there is word _noo_ "before" from a recently found (presumable) JRRT's
letter for Dorothy ("meriu sa haryalye alasse <...> noo vanyalye
Ambarello"). But I can't guess how to use it in a compound.

I'm not very good in Quenya (actually in English too :) so there are
probably errors in my guesses:

_NIB_  makes me ask for help: whether B > MB (lambe) or B > V (lav-).
Enlighten me please!

_ANA_, _ING_ and _YESE_ gives _*antacolna_, _*ingacolna_ and _*yessecolna_
(-lna > -lda ?)

Which one is appropriate?

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo

I need a Quenya translation of the first few lines of
Galadriel's Song, "I sang of leaves" for a story I'm
writing.  I have used Katherine Thorhammer's translation
(elfling message #1549) and the comments of Josu
Gomez and Ales Bican as my guide.

One of my goals is to end up with something that
scans -- rhyming would be nice, but is highly optional.

Here's what I have for the first two lines:

I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew.
I sang of wind, a wind there came, and in the branches blew.

Iliirien lasses, laurie lasses, laurie lassi orortie.
  -|--|-,|--|-,|--|--|--
Iliirien suures, san suure utuulie, aldaron olvassen awaiwie.
  -|--|-,-|--|--, |--|---|--

Doubled vowels=accent over vowel.

For "lasses" and "suures" I'm using the relational inflection,
because the "of" is really "about, concerning" and I couldn't
fit that into easily into the genitive or instrumental boxes as
I understand them.

The last phrase of the second line is giving me trouble
because of the rhythm. Are the stresses indeed
al'daron ol'vassen awai'wie? I put in the "aldaron" to
make the line scan; I might need to fiddle with it some
more.

Mary Ellen
Doctor Science, MA
http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/goodbook
Now featuring: Good Book of the Millennium
  - - - - - - - - -
Good Book of the 17th Century:
"Hamlet," by William Shakespeare

*Sigh* Some of those other web dictionaries are unreliable... one gave dan
as Maker
(Either that, or I was trying to use Sindarian and didn't realize it)

I was originally trying to come up with there titles
Maker of Places (I called these Rooms) "Danosem" Would it now be Tano Sem?
Maker of Living Things Tano Kelvar
Maker of Objects: Tano Engwion

So is it _tan_ that is the root that means maker?

I am afraid I don't understand Tano Engwion... isn't engwa sickly?

Sorry, but I am still a beginner but I do appreciate your excellent pages :)

Thank you & sorry for the confusion,

Dominik R. Rabiej
email@...
http://www.dominik.net/
http://www.teenhealthnet.com/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
To: <elfling@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:23 AM
Subject: [elfling] Re: Expressing the Concept of Thing...


> > I have no idea if Q. nat or N. nad survived in Tolkien's
> > later conception.
>
> We have _uunat_ for "impossible thing" in a source dating from ca. 1960,
so
> _nat_ must still be valid. (This is the same source that has _engwe_ for
> "thing", so one does not exclude the other.)
>
> > > I'm trying to come up with something that means "Maker of Things", but
> all I have is Dano (Maker of)..
>
> _Tano_, you mean? _Nattano_ or _Engwetan(o)_ may do. Or _Engwecarno_,
> _Engwecarmo_, _Engwecarindo_; all of these mean "Thing-maker". Or
> analytical _Carindo Nation_, or _Tano Engwion_, of whatever combination
you
> prefer.
>
> - HF
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=elfling&m=1
>

I was wondering if someone out there on this list could help me out...

I used to have a copy of a Tengwar Generator downloaded on my laptop.
Unfortunately, said laptop crashed and needed a hard drive replacement
a few weeks ago, and I lost a the generator.  I also can't find it any
more, as I had downloaded it from somewhere at least two years ago.
Now I'm looking for a new one, or a clue as to where to find the one I
had.  It had two windows, top and bottom, and the text would be
translated as you typed (if that is anything of a clue).  It also had
two modes, Quenya and Sindarin.

Can any of you out yonder help me out?  Just looking for something
simple and easy...and that doesn't require much memory...TIA

am 29.01.2000 18:54 Uhr schrieb Jerome S. Colburn unter
jscolbur@...:

> On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, david kiltz wrote:
>
>> _Kelvar_ is glossed in the Silmarillion as: An Elvish word retained in the
>> speeches of Yavanna and Manwe ... : "animals, living things that move".
>> Probably from a root KEL- "to move (away) (quickly)". These are opposed to
>> _Olvar_ "living things that grow (and cannot move)".
>
> KEL- is seen also in Celduin, translated as "the River Running."
   It is also seen in Q: _ehtele_ "outflow", S: _eithel_ i.e. *et-kele etc.
>
>> Quickly translates into Q. as e.g. _linte_ or S. _lim_. A root NOR- seems to
>> mean "hurry, make haste" in both languages.
>
> Where is NOR- in Q.?
   You can find it in the Book of Lost Tales 1 under _Nornore_. Citing:... in
QL this name has the form _Nornoros_ "herald of the Gods", and with the verb
_nornoro_ "run on, run smoothly" is derived from a root NORO "run, ride,
spin, etc."
>
> S. _lim_ I interpret as _l-_ the same element as in the Q. ablative case
> ending + _im_ the 1. sg. pronoun (_im_ "I" as in _Im Narvi hain echant_
> and _an_+_im_ "for me" as in _uu-chebin estel anim_). That is, that
> Glorfindel was telling his horse to run away from Glorfindel, putting
> distance between Glorfindel and Frodo. I don't see why *lint- should have
> produced _lim_ rather than *_lint_.

   I don't see why *lintV should have produced S. _lim_ either. It goes
without saying that _lim_ cannot derive from *lintV or the like. I never
said it would. In Unfinished Tales p. 318 (english paperback eition). The RN
_limlint_ is translated as "swift-light". Now I take the word order of the
translation to be identical with the original. So _lim_ wd mean "swift" and
_lint_ "light".
All the more since _Limlight_ is said to be a semi-translation of Elvish
_limlint_, where again "light" corresponds to _lint_. Why shouldn't Sindarin
have used _lint_ which is probably etymologically reated to Q. _linte_ in a
(slightly) different meaning. This wd be a more than common phenomenon in
actually related languages. Still You may of course be right with Your
analysis of_lim_ in the above sentence.
>
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> + Jerome S. (Jeannette E. H.-va verno) Colburn                     +
> + jscolbur@...                                          +
> + Quettanyar lintanootinyallo nai ranuvar Quenyandilive hendennar! +
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=elfling&m=1
>
>

Suilaid!

> I used to have a copy of a Tengwar Generator downloaded on my laptop.
> Unfortunately, said laptop crashed and needed a hard drive replacement
> a few weeks ago, and I lost a the generator.  I also can't find it any
> more, as I had downloaded it from somewhere at least two years ago.

I made the Tengwar Generator some five years ago. Then Daniel Smith
asked me if I would update the program to comply with the new version of
his fonts. So I wrote a new, slightly more advanced program. It's called
the Tengwar Scribe, and it can be downloaded for free from
<http://user.tninet.se/~xof995c/tengscribe.htm>.

The Tengwar Scribe is 32-bit, so it won't work under Windows 3.1-11. If
you'd rather want the old Generator it's still available for download
from Dan Smith's site
<http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/index.html>.

Yrs,
	 Måns


--
Måns Björkman                                             "A grim morn,
Törnby                                                  and a glad day,
SE-179 75 Skå                                     and a golden sunset!"
Sweden                                                         ~Theoden