>2.) Where is this book? A frantic if cursory search of
>the catalogues of Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk, not to
>mention the archives of rec.arts.books.tolkien, has
>yielded no information so far.

>I bought it in Paris, in the _WH Smith_ bookshop of the French capital.
Not
>on the Internet.


I find the book at a Barnes and Noble book store. The book I saw was
hard-covered, and cost $35.

David Barnhart
___________________________________________________________________
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Alcar Ataren, ar Yondon, ar Aina Manun.
Ve né i yessesse, ná sin, ar oi yéva
randassen randaron.


This is my first attempt at Quenya translation.  This is the Gloria
Patri, a doxology which runs (in English):

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be
World without end.

In general, I followed the Latin text:

Gloria Patri et Filio et Spiritui Sancto.
(Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.)
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper
(As it was in the beginning, both now and always)
In saecula sauculorum.
(In ages of ages.) my own translation.

A few breif notes:
Alcar- is from the ETYM with the meaning bright but the Sindarin
cognate aglar means glorious so I felt it was the best choice.

I left out the being verb in the first line as in Latin.  I understand
that this is allowed in Quenya.

Manun- from the ETYM with the meaning `ghost, spirit of the dead'.  I
chose it because that is the meaning of both the English and the Latin
words (Ghost and Spiritus).

yessesse and randassen- the locative is used temporaly.  I used the
prase I yessesse from Helge's translation of Genesis I.

I owe very great thanks to Helge.  He resources at Ardalambion were
invaluble.  The forms of the being verb, for instance, are taken from
his usage.  This seems a very simple text, but it is my first attemt
and I wanted to start small.  Coments and critism are welcome.

Cirk R. Bejnar

Hi -
I don't think I've introduced myself: I'm a junior in high school and I've been
studying Tolkien's languages (esp. Quenya) for a while now, both because I'm
interested in languages in general, and because I just like the way Quenya
sounds.

Anyway, I'd written a short story in Quenya a while ago, and I decided that it
would be fun to write it out in tengwar, just to see how it would look.  I
finished the first page, and I thought you might enjoy it.  You can find it at

http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m473/dumke001/page1.jpg
(83Kb JPEG scan of a 9x12 ink, watercolor, and metal leaf on paper)

I would appreciate some feedback on my grammar + spelling.  I know I'm not that
great a calligrapher, (and the scan didn't help any) but I thought it would be
fun to share this anyway.  I might do some more pages later: this is just the
intro to the story.  I can post a transliteration or a translation if anyone
would find that helpful.

Let fly the comments and criticism - I'm sure I will learn a lot.

hantanyel,
Tim

--------------------------------------------------------
Tim Gades -- green@...
nai eleni yar er caalar, sii ardasse sintala, tielyanna
siluvar, tenna ambartaryanna.
--------------------------------------------------------

David A. Lind wrote:

> The probable reason for this edition to come out now is to
> extend the book's copyright (oh no! I said that word!) which
> I believe is due to expire in a couple years.
>

That can't be it...international copyright law places the expiration at 75
years after the death of the author. We've got a ways to go for that...

Clint

p.s. I know this because I had to take classes in it, since I work in a copy
shop...

Aiya!

How should I say "hauberk" in Quenya?

Of course I can use something abstract like _varma_, but I'm not sure it's
the best guess - something that protects, this can be used as a general word
for almost everything: shield, helmet etc. And I don't see any way to "plug"
into it some mention about rings to make "a ringmail" :(

BTW what is the etymology of word "hauberk" itself - maybe that'll help? Or
one could make a word for "mail" working with _NAT_ stem (something like
_varnat(se)_)?

Please help!

P.S. I also appreciate the words "to ride", "corn", "to grow" and "meadow".
Hm, "guba ne dura" ;-)))

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo

Aiya!

What is known about "ann-thennath" song-mode? How's the name translated?
BTW, what is known about elven poetry in general - what were its "modes",
how does the _narn_, f.e., composed?

P.S. I've translated Tolkien's "Nimrodel" into Quenya (with rhyme and
rythm!) - just few words are needed: "to curse" and "low" (avd.)
Also I haven't decided yet what whould I do with the personal names - leave
them as they are (Silvan in this case, if I'm not mistaken), "quenize" or
completely translate?

Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo

John Cowan <jcowan@...> wrote :

>Jerry Caveney wrote:
>
>> (Btw, the best list of traditional (classical) figures
>> of speech I know of in English, although the example are mostly in
>> ancient Greek, is in the Figures appendix to Smyth's Greek Grammar. The
>> examples are translated however, and there are also a few in Latin and
>> English.)
>
>Available online at
>http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=smyth+3004&vers=english

Don't forget "real books"! ;-)

"Dictionary of Literary Terms and Literary Theory" by Cuddon (Penguin
Books). Cheap (it is more than a 1000 pages long) and "reliable" (Tolkien
is cited ;-) ).



EJK

Ales Bican <bican@...> wrote :

Josu Gomez wrote:

<snip>

>> >> "manda cirya nancoluva ni arta Ear ta palla?"
>> >
>> >**Here I'd use _mana_ (or _man_, do as you want), since Edward Kloczko
>> >states _manda_ is "which, what" (relative pronoun). And both "what" are
>> >here question pronouns.
>>
>> Emm... I'm not sure... quoting Edward Kloczko,
>>
>> >>    In a (yet) unpublished grammar of Qenya (probabaly dating from the
late
>> >>30's) Tolkien states that _man_ (stem mand-) is the interrogative
pronoun
>> >>"who, what?" But "what, which" is manda ; "what sort of, of what kind"
is
>> >>_maite_ and "which (out of several considered)" is _mahtea_.
>>
>> I think here Kloczko tells us about a "interrogative series":
>>
>> "who?, what?" -> man
>> "which?" -> manda
>> "what sort of...?" -> maite
>> "which (out of several considered)...?" -> mahtea
>
>**Hm, I've understood to it like this: _man_ is the interrogative pronoun
"who,
>what?" (with the interrogation point!) *but* [relative pronoun] "what,
which"
>(without the interrogation point!) is _manda_. If I'm wrong, please let me
know,
>Edward.

In this grammar it is cleraly stated that the relative is "ya- and i-"
(yes, both). _Manda_ is said to be the interrogative adjective.

>>
>>
> They aren't "relative pronouns", as you say, but "interrogative
>> pronouns"... and I think "manda" or even "mahtea" are the best option to
>> express the "which ship?" sentences :)
>
>**I don't think so. Edward Kloczko tells that it's *Qenya*, not Quenya,
>thus it's very early, though it doesn't directly mean that it's not valid
in
>later stages of Quenya.

Even if it is not valid in later stage of Quenya what's the big deal? Are
we trying to talk as the Elves did in Me or Aman? -- This was that JRRT was
"strugling" to get to. --
One piece of Q. (Q. or Qu. :-) ) grammar info should be enough for us to
use it _here and now_. Later when "all" JRRT Linguistic papers are
"published" we can start to make decissions on what to use or not.

EJK

"Tim Gades" <green@...> wrote:

Hi -
I don't think I've introduced myself: I'm a junior in high school and I've
been studying Tolkien's languages (esp. Quenya) for a while now, both because
I'm interested in languages in general, and because I just like the way Quenya
sounds.

**Well, I am a senior in high school, and I must say that you have quite a
talent.  I haven't translated it yet, but I am giong to print it out and work
on it.

<snip>
I would appreciate some feedback on my grammar + spelling.  I know I'm not
that great a calligrapher, (and the scan didn't help any) but I thought it
would be fun to share this anyway.  I might do some more pages later: this is
just the intro to the story.  I can post a transliteration or a translation if
anyone would find that helpful.

**I personally think that you are a great calligrapher (of course, that is
comparing you to myself and that would make anyone look like a great
calligrapher :-) ).  I think that the script is beautiful.  You certainly have
a mastery of the Tengwar that I don't have.  I look forward to translating
it.

**Derek

---
---------------------------------------------------
|   "To walk in Time, perhaps, as men walk        |
|    on long roads... to see the lie of old       |
|    and even forgotten lands, to behold ancient  |
|    men walking, and to hear their languages as  |
|    they spoke them, in the days before the days,|
|    when tongues of forgotten lineage were heard |
|    in kingdoms long fallen by the shores of the |
|    Atlantic."                                   |
|              -J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lost Road     |
|_________________________________________________|

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, David A. Lind wrote:

> The probable reason for this edition to come out now is to
> extend the book's copyright (oh no! I said that word!) which
> I believe is due to expire in a couple years.

The Silmarillion was published in 1977. I think that for the purposes of
copyright, Christopher Tolkien is treated as a "co-author", and therefore
we will have to wait until 75 years after his death until the Silmarillion
is out of copyright.

If not, we will have to wait for 1973+75 years anyway (until 2048),
likewise for the works that were published during JRRT's life.

(In some jurisdictions, it might be 50 years instead of 75 years.)

--
Robert

Hi!

I just have two questions which may be a bit off-topic, but elfling
seems to be a good group to ask these questions:
at first, are there are any songs known (and published) in Quenya (or
any other language created by JRRT); "song" doesn't mean the many poems
published here and anywhere, I mean "really" songs (available as .MP3 or
on CD).
The second question is about songs made about JRRT's world. Actually I
know only one CD ("Blind Guardian" on their Album "Nightfall in
Middle-Earth"), but I'm sure there must be more.
Thanks for every answer.

   Matthias

I have a simple question.  What dialects would be included in a
Sindarin Lexicon?  I have worked on one for a number of years.  The
last few months I have spent refining it and editing.  I defined
Sindarin as the dialects spoken by the Son's of Feanor, Hithlum,
Gondolin, Nargothrond, and Doriath.  These all came together at the
Mouths of Sirion, I believe blending there.  I have also updated it to
Third Age Sindarin.  But again, how will it be defined?

Ken.

> I know I'm not that great a calligrapher, (and the scan didn't help
any) but I thought it would be fun to share this anyway.<

Hey, don't insult your own work!  It's pretty.  ^_^

This, and Helge's defense of plausible word creation, make me feel a
little better about offering up what there is of my own work on
Sindarin.  (In trying to build a usable lexicon for Sindarin I sometimes
find myself extrapolating and/or borrowing from Quenya and the
Entymologies.  I welcome suggestions on how to become better at this.)

http://home.earthlink.net/~estara2/sindarin.html

Love, Julie

Edward Kloczko wrote:

> Ales Bican wrote :
>
> >Kloczko Edward wrote:
> >
> >
> >> *NB I just found out that there is NOW a new Silmarillion. A Second
> Edition,
> >> 1999! With correction made by Christopher Tolkien.
> >
> >**Wow, did you see it? Or did anyone out see it? Does it contain any
> >corrections in Appendix?
>
> Does the 1977 "Silmarillion" Appendix need any corrections???

**Who knows? But it *could* happen.


Ales Bican

Edward Kloczko wrote:

> Ales Bican wrote:
>
> >But we can avoid this problem - it's possible to drop the verb here. It
> >can be said _ni ilfirin_ "I [am] immortal", _le ilfirin_ "you [are]
> >immortal" etc.
>
> Neither _ni_ or _le_ are Quenya subject independant pronoun. It is_inye_
> and _elye_.

**It's an old problem: once someone asked how to say "I am beautiful"
in Q, you wrote _inye vanya_, _elye vanya_ and Helge wrote _ni vanya_
and _le vanya_, if I remember correctly.
_Ni_ occurs in Arctic sentence, though it's not proper Quenya: _ni veela_
"I see".

>
>
> _le_ is Sindarin. It is said that it is a _loanword_ from Quenya but it
> does not mean that it has the _same_ from in Quenya :

**It does not, but it could.

> it is _elye_.
> Normal subject pronouns are suffixed to the verb but when "independant"
> (fully stressed) they are "emphatic" (cf. Latin).

**_Le_ is attested only as object in S., right, but we could suppose that
it could serve as non-emphatic independent word for "you" as well.


Ales Bican

>Kloczko Edward wrote:

> Does the 1977 "Silmarillion" Appendix need any corrections???

Well, in the entry _kir-_, the word _cirya_ "sharp-proved ship" appears as
_ciirya_ with a long _i_. It should be _cirya_, found in many other places
(and also in the name Tar-Ciryatan in the same entry!) Christopher Tolkien
was probably confusing it with the Sindarin name _Ciirdan_; in the same
entry in the Appendix, he also turned the name of Isildur's son _Ciryon_
into _Ciiryon_.

But Ed is right; this Appendix may be somewhat unsystematic, but there are
very few outright errors to be corrected.

- Helge Fauskanger

>I would appreciate some feedback on my grammar + spelling.  I know I'm not
>that great a calligrapher, (and the scan didn't help any) but I thought it
>would be fun to share this anyway.  I might do some more pages later: this
>is just the intro to the story.  I can post a transliteration or a
>translation if anyone would find that helpful.

    I thought that both the story and the art were extremely well done.
Congratulations!

    It reads:

    Apa Altaariel marne ana nelde loar vinya nooreryasse, yaara neer tulle
coaryanna ar eques: "Alta, ahlaarien sa i aire yulma Oromeo nai yeeva mi
noorelma.  Sina aire yulma antuva alasse ar seere ar valde coan ar nooren
yava hire ta: Nai tultuvalye neri sacien sina yulma rato."
    Altaariel eque, "Sii oorenya altave hirien sina yulma.  Naalye istima; a
cila nin canta neri sacien i aire yulma.  Nelde neri ciluvan."
    Eque i neer, "Calion ar Turco ar Aicanaaro ar mine niis, elye."
    Eque Altaariel, "ana man cillelyen?"

    After Altariel lived for three years in her new country, an old man came
to her house and said, "Great one, I have heard that the holy cup of Orome
may be in our country.  This holy cup will give joy and peace and power to
the house and country of whoever finds it.  You should summon men to look
for the cup soon."
    Altariel said, "Now my heart greatly [desires?] to find this cup.  You
are wise; choose for me four men to seek the holy cup.  I will choose
three."
    The man said, "Calion and Turco and Aicanaro and one woman, you."
    Altariel said, "Why did you choose me?"

Notes and problems:
marne: You really want something like a pluperfect here "had dwelt".  Maybe
*amarnie?
ana nelde loar:  I think this is an unusually English formation, probably
odd in a case language like Quenya.  In Sanskrit "for [time]" is expressed
with the accusative; I don't know if Quenya would do the same, but I think
some case would be used.  I think "nelde loar" by itself would be fine.

tulle: we have tuule for "came" in _Sauron Defeated_, p. 246.

Alta: is this an honorific, or is it short for "Altaariel"?

aire: in The Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 363, aira is defined as the
adjective "holy", while aire is the noun "sanctity".

valde: it's only my guess that this means "power" (after Sanavaldo
"almighty", and other derivatives of the root BAL) -- is it your invention?
What did you mean by it?

sacien: from the Qenya Lexicon saka-, look for.  But it also means
"pursue"; for which we could use instead the Etymologies Quenya word roita-.

ana man: We really need a dative form of ma- "what", but perhaps the
allative manna "towards what (end)" would do in a pinch.

    I think the calligraphy is very nice, but I think the last question mark
(if that's what it is) on the last line of the second column looks too much
like a "ts" graph.  I can't see the stroke for the first "e" in "nelde",
column 2, line 5.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

One week ago, Edward Kloczko wrote:
> "AE OR OE? Tolkien's Hard Choice" Is the very interesting and thought
> provoking article by Helge on his site. Fortunately JRR Tolkien
> explains in the text F2 (see PMe) much more about the ai, ae problem
> (like in the names Dairon & Daeron). He says in this text F2 that in
> Gondor Sindarin diphtongue _ai_ was often pronounced as _ae_, this
> explaining the discrepancy of Aiglos/Aeglos in LOTR.

If one wants to go further, there is also the interesting problem
of /ai/ versus /e/ and /ei/.

In The Etymologies, several A and A-A words (not to cite O-O words)
make their plural in /e/ or /ei/:

      adar  pl.  eder, edeir (Ety/349),
      taal  pl.  teil (Ety/390)

In LotR-style Sindarin and later sources, these plural are
usually in /ai/ (the so-called "classical" inflection):

      adar  pl. *edair < Eden-edair "fathers of men" (MR/373).
      tal   pl. *tail  < tad-dail "two-legged" (WJ/388).

But a few words still found with /ei/:

      alph  pl. eilph (S/427, UT/265)

Moreover /e/ and /ei/ are attested in a few late compounds:

     Eden-edair (MR/373, already mentioned) where *Edain-edair
                would have been expected, cf. WJ/387 for Edain.

     Ereinion "Scion of Kings" (a name of Gil-Galad, UT/436),
               instead of *Erainion.

Therefore it seems that we can't just assume that /ei/ and
/e/ are old plural patters later rejected by Tolkien...

I am wondering whether /ei/, /e/ and /ai/ might not be
allophones in these words, and might depend on the
position of the stress and the quantity of the
previous vowel. In Edenedair, stress falls on the first
syllable of the second term (i.e.  edenEDair), and *Edainedair
would henceforth show a long diphtong just before the stressed
syllable. In Ereinion, this is perhaps a question of aperture.

Any other idea?

Regards,

Didier.

T.C. wrote:
>
> What exactly is the literal meaning of Imladris? I'm especially
> confused about the 'im' part. Does it mean 'deep', so that
> imlad = im + lad, deep + valley = deep valley? Or is 'im' not
> a separate element in itself?
>
> Also, what would be the Quenya equivalent of Imladris?

Hello,

_lad_ ("plain, vale" in S/433) is not attested in Etymologies,
though it presumably derives from the stem LAT, which gives
_lhaden_ "open, cleared" (Ety/368, probably read _*laden_ in
mature Sindarin).

The prefix _im-_ is not attested either as a standalone word,
as far as I know, but occurs in two words,

    _imlad_ "narrow valley with steep sides" (S/433)

and

    _imrath_ "long narrow valley with a road or watercourse
    running through it lengthwise (UT/465)

In the latter word, _rath_ is known to mean "course riverbed"
(Ety/383).

Therefore, it seems conceivable that _im-_ means "long and
narrow".

Best regards

Didier.

P.S. By the way, UT/465 lists _Imrath Gondraich_ "Stonewain
Valley". What does the element -wain means in English? Is
there any interpretation for the -raich ending in Sindarin?
-- -

Richard wrote:
>
>
> In my opinion _diin_ should be rather interpreted as "below", not
> "silently". This word can be deducted from _di-nguruthos_ "*beneath*
> death-horror" in Sam's invocation. If the original word was _diin_,
> it could mutate: _guruthos_ > _nguruthos_, like in case of genitive
> article _en_ (pl. _in_).
>
> We don't have any example of the _diin_ adverb "silently" like we
> cannot
> be sure that _diin_ means "below".

Just for the record, note that we already have several _diin_ in
the corpus, all with different meanings.

     "his" (SD/128-129)

     "opening, gap, pass in mountains" (Ety/354, stem DEN)

     "silence" (LotR, see also S/430 and cognate adjetive _diinen_)

So with your *"beneath", it makes at least four (I do not guarantee
yet the list to be complete!).

Well, that makes a lot... Apparently Tolkien really liked that
sound;-)

Didier.

P.S. There are also three _caun_, three _gwend_, three _rhaw_,
potentially three _riin_ if RH > R changes are applied
consistently, and many other duplicated entries... Well, speaking
Sindarin is a hard game, it seems!
-- -

At 10:03 16/11/99 -0800, you wrote:

(Message to be translated from Spanish. Apologies :)  )

>I wonder if there is not any lists where the lingo that is written in is
>Quenya or like. I know there is one for Gaelic, where all on there speak
>or are learning Gaelic, and I expect there is others.
>
>After all, we have people here who speak Russian, Spanish, English and I
>suspect other linogs, why not all speak Quenya?

More people has the same worry. The idea Angasule threw days ago comes from
that.

I think, in this moment of Quenya-studies, several persons' passive
competenc is rather high; and if their active competence is not, this
happens because of the lack of possibilities to practice it. The present
level of knowledge about Quenya lets us, I think, carrying on simple
"elvish" conversational threads.

Around the Spanish-speaking Tolkienist circles, we have done a few tests on
that matter, and we think that making an IRC channel to "speak in Quenya"
would be a nice tool to explore the possibilities that "conversational
Quenya" offers. We would see which are the actual needs we have to carry
that tongue to the speech, and we could find out the resources to solve
them. And, anyway, we'd reach a minimum competence... in the direction of
that Helge just said, "hoping to be able to one day use them".

Well, would be any person interested in start "speaking fluently Quenya"
(or just trying it) on the IRC? :)


(P.d.: the "elvish mailing list" would be another possibility, of course;
they aren't incompatibles, but they would fill different needs...)

	 Josu

			 http://www.arrakis.es/~josugp
			 josugp@...

Edward Kloczko wrote:
>
> > **Wow, did you see it? Or did anyone out see it? Does it contain any
> > corrections in Appendix?
>
> Does the 1977 "Silmarillion" Appendix need any corrections???
>
> EJK

You are joking, aren't you?

In my edition (GraftonBooks 1991, first edited by Allen & Unwin 1977,
second paperback edition 1983, ISBN 0-261-10244-3), the appendix
seems to contain several slight errors, or at least inaccuracies
and weird readings (beside the fact that the words are not always
attributed to Q. and S., as already mentioned).

Let's just quickly browse this appendix...

    p. 429 _cuu_ "bow" with acute accent: in monosyllabic stressed
           words, a circumflex would be expected (cf. Ety/365 for
           _kuuu_ with circumflex).

           [The reading Dor-Cuuarthol (with acute accent, page 389)
           is correct for a compound word. But Laer Cuu Beleg, page
           406, is problematic]

    p. 430 _duu_ : same problem.

    p. 432 There should probably be an acute accent on çMirdain_
           (cf. Miirdain p. 401).

    p. 433 _lhach_ seems "Noldorin" and should perhaps be read as
           _lach_ in mature Sindarin, cf. _lacho_ in UT/65.

    p. 434 _los_ "snow": written like this is a nonsense, neither
           Quenya nor Sindarin.
           Sindarin is stated to be _loss_, but Ety/359 has _gloss_.
           Should we read -loss (as an ending), or is _loss_ attested
           as a standalone word in some later source?

    p. 435 _mor_ "dark" should conceivably be written _mor-_ (as
           a prefix in compound S. words). In real S. the adjetive
           is _morn_.

    p. 435 _niiin_ "wet": well, in these compound words only, then.
           The meaning should be "`water', used of a lake, pool or
           lesser river, by ext. `waterland'", cf. UT/457.

    p. 436 _beth_ "word" should read _peth_, with an indication that
            the word is lenited into _beth_ in the LotR sentence
            quoted as example.

    P. 439 _tur_ should probably be _tuuur_ with a circumflex
           (Ety/395) or marked as an prefix.

In conclusion, it seems that CJRT is inconsistent in his use of
acute/circumflex accents, hyphens (for prefixes) and lenitions
(_calen_ is correct, but _beth_ is not, etc.).

He is not to blame, because the subject is complex and he has
built the lexicon from various sources. But on the other hand,
a revision would be nice.

Though HoME has now been completed, I don't feel confident
correcting some of the obscure entries. The information was drawn
from miscellaneous texts by CJRT, and a really nice revision
should certainly reference the HoME volumes ;-)

Didier.

First of all, thank you much to all those who liked this and told me so.  That
was only about the first fifth of the story or so, I'll calligraph [sp?] the
rest when I have time.  (Which doesn't seem too likely in the *immediate*
future, what with History and Algebra. ugh.)  The story is sort of loosely based
on the Grail/Grimm's Fairy Tales, with a dash of Tolkien and whatever else
happened to pop into my head when I was writing it.  I would encourage everyone
to go write some Quenya (or Sindarin, if that's more your cup of tea): it's
really a great way to learn the language.

David Salo: quick work on the translation.  I'm impressed.  It's pretty much
right on.  I'll try to answer your questions:

>
>    It reads:
>
>    Apa Altaariel marne ana nelde loar vinya nooreryasse, yaara neer tulle
> coaryanna ar eques: "Alta, ahlaarien sa i aire yulma Oromeo nai yeeva mi
> noorelma.  Sina aire yulma antuva alasse ar seere ar valde coan ar nooren
> yava hire ta: Nai tultuvalye neri sacien sina yulma rato."
>    Altaariel eque, "Sii oorenya altave hirien sina yulma.  Naalye istima; a
> cila nin canta neri sacien i aire yulma.  Nelde neri ciluvan."
>    Eque i neer, "Calion ar Turco ar Aicanaaro ar mine niis, elye."
>    Eque Altaariel, "ana man cillelyen?"
>
>    After Altariel lived for three years in her new country, an old man came
> to her house and said, "Great one, I have heard that the holy cup of Orome
> may be in our country.  This holy cup will give joy and peace and power to
> the house and country of whoever finds it.  You should summon men to look
> for the cup soon."
>    Altariel said, "Now my heart greatly [desires?] to find this cup.  You
> are wise; choose for me four men to seek the holy cup.  I will choose
> three."
>    The man said, "Calion and Turco and Aicanaro and one woman, you."
>    Altariel said, "Why did you choose me?"

All right on except for the 2nd paragraph, where the _old man_ actually says "I
will choose three (men)"  Seems I committed a blatant English-ism by splitting
the quote.  Guess I should have been more clear with the punctuation.  They are
picking 4 people to go out and look for this cup, not seven. 8-)

>
> Notes and problems:
> marne: You really want something like a pluperfect here "had dwelt".  Maybe
> *amarnie?

Um.  I wish we had a pluperfect too.  I'm not sure I entirely understand the
distinction between the simple past and the perfect.  Is it like the Latin
imperfect/perfect?

> ana nelde loar:  I think this is an unusually English formation, probably
> odd in a case language like Quenya.  In Sanskrit "for [time]" is expressed
> with the accusative; I don't know if Quenya would do the same, but I think
> some case would be used.  I think "nelde loar" by itself would be fine.

I was actually using "ana" in the sense of "until" (until three years [had
passed]) but I agree it is a rather clumsy construction.  Now that I think
of it, I can't remeber where I saw "ana" glossed "until" -- time to hit the
books again.

> tulle: we have tuule for "came" in _Sauron Defeated_, p. 246.

Oh. I always thought that lengthening the vowel to form the simple past was
a feature of an older stage of Quenya.

> Alta: is this an honorific, or is it short for "Altaariel"?

It is intended as an honorific, "great one", but the Eldar appreciated plays
on words, did they not? ;->

> aire: in The Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 363, aira is defined as the
> adjective "holy", while aire is the noun "sanctity".

Oops.  I don't have PM.  Time to get it.

> valde: it's only my guess that this means "power" (after Sanavaldo
> "almighty", and other derivatives of the root BAL) -- is it your invention?
> What did you mean by it?

It's supposed to mean "blessedness" -- it's from BoLT, where "vald-" is given
that gloss.  It's a bad word choice for mature Quenya: a better one would have
been "almare".  But "power" fits fine in the story.

> sacien: from the Qenya Lexicon saka-, look for.  But it also means
> "pursue"; for which we could use instead the Etymologies Quenya word roita-.

Yeah, I wanted something that conveyed more of a "searching" than a "pursuing".

> ana man: We really need a dative form of ma- "what", but perhaps the
> allative manna "towards what (end)" would do in a pinch.

I was afraid that would get too confused with "mana".

>    I think the calligraphy is very nice, but I think the last question mark
> (if that's what it is) on the last line of the second column looks too much
> like a "ts" graph.

I hate that character! :-)

> I can't see the stroke for the first "e" in "nelde",
> column 2, line 5.

That's 'cause it doesn't exist.  Oops.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Gades -- green@...
nai eleni yar er caalar, sii ardasse sintala, tielyanna siluvar,
tenna ambartaryanna.
----------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 15 Nov 1999, Didier Willis wrote:

> The prefix _im-_ is not attested either as a standalone word,
> as far as I know, but occurs in two words,
>
>    _imlad_ "narrow valley with steep sides" (S/433)
>
> and
>
>    _imrath_ "long narrow valley with a road or watercourse
>    running through it lengthwise (UT/465)
>
> In the latter word, _rath_ is known to mean "course riverbed"
> (Ety/383).
>
> Therefore, it seems conceivable that _im-_ means "long and
> narrow".

I've thought it was cognate to Qu. _imbe_ "between", and an _imlad_ was a
relatively flat place between mountains, and an _imrath_ would be a
sloping course between mountains.

> P.S. By the way, UT/465 lists _Imrath Gondraich_ "Stonewain
> Valley". What does the element -wain means in English? Is
> there any interpretation for the -raich ending in Sindarin?

Well, a wain is a wagon, so was the Stonewain Valley the way wagons would
go carrying cut stone to Minas Tirith from quarries in the White Mountains?

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Jerome S. (Jeannette E. H.-va verno) Colburn                     +
+ jscolbur@...                                          +
+ Quettanyar lintanootinyallo nai ranuvar Quenyandilive hendennar! +
+------------------------------------------------------------------+

Dear Sirs,
I'm a member of the Elfling list. My name is RICHARD DERDZINSKI. My
question is why my name isn't written as above in the messages digest,
but there is '--' sign or something like HTMLformate-like version of my
name.

My email is maggot@...

Yours,

Richard Derdzinski

Didier Willis wrote:

> P.S. By the way, UT/465 lists _Imrath Gondraich_ "Stonewain
> Valley". What does the element -wain mean in English?

Wagon/chariot, as in "Charles's Wain" = the constellation
Ursa Major.  Now typically applied to heavy farm wagons.

--

John Cowan http://www.reutershealth.com  jcowan@...
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! / Schliess eurer Aug vor heiliger Schau
Den er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
		 -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)

>Around the Spanish-speaking Tolkienist circles, we have done a few
tests on
>that matter, and we think that making an IRC channel to "speak in
Quenya"
>would be a nice tool to explore the possibilities that "conversational
>Quenya" offers. We would see which are the actual needs we have to
carry
>that tongue to the speech, and we could find out the resources to solve
>them. And, anyway, we'd reach a minimum competence... in the direction
of
>that Helge just said, "hoping to be able to one day use them".

I must say that I agree with you there, because as every linguist
should know, speaking/writing a language is a perfect step towards
learning it!!!

>Well, would be any person interested in start "speaking fluently
Quenya"
>(or just trying it) on the IRC? :)
>
> Josu

I wouldn't mind trying it, but on one condition, that Helge F. joins
us!!!
Come on Helge, do us all a huge favour!

Vedui' il'er
'Cause I am new to the list, my first posting is intended to be a short
introduction
of my humble person.
I am from Germany where I study Computer-Science at the moment. I was always
quite a fan of fantasy (and, of course, of Tolkien's works), but I didn't know,
that his languages were such elaborate constructs. My main interest at the
moment
is in learning Quendar and this is why I suscribed to this list.
That should be enough about me.
    Tenna’ telwan san’
    Clandestine

Aiya!
Ales Bican eteecie:

>>  Aiya! During the translation of one poem on Quenya i found some
>> unsoluble for me questions.The first one is -    how to translate
>> construction 'without smth'

>**I guess you mean "without smith".
O, no. I'm just mean 'without something'.

>"Without" is in Quenya _uu_, said to be followed by genitive. Thus e.g.
>_melme_ >is "love" and "without  love" is _uu melmeo_. The word for "smith"
>is _tano_. If a >noun ends with _-o_ already, the genitive becomes
>'infinitive', i.e. no _-o_ is
>added and genitive is simply _tano_. So "without smith" is _uu tano_.
   Thank you for your help.

>>    and another is -        how to translate a word rudder (or helf)
>> (the detail of the ship) Maybe some sinonyms of this word are known or
>> could be inverted?

>**That's problem. As far as I know there's no word for "rudder" and
>personally have no idea about a synonym or an invention.

And what about the word 'captain'? Could we say 'The lord of the ship' -
'ciryatar' or  'ciryatur' ?
>Ales Bican


>ps I guess the first part of your email address, i.e. 'envinywen'
>should be in Quenya, shouldn't it?
Yes.
>Hm, I think in Quenya _nyw_ is not possible cluster, btw. poss
Yeah, i khow. This is a wrong translation of a name 'Renewed maiden' into
quenya. Mabe it should be 'Envynyawen' but i invent it wery long ago and now
it is impossible to change it 'cause it has been my pseudonim for a long
time.


Namaarie
Envinywen Heerince