Hi guys
I have an inquiry from a friend of mine who I told about this list.  He has
the following question(s):
BTW by Quenya, he actually means Sindarin or Old Sindarin.  Thanks for you
help


What is the Quenya word for 'Scourge', 'The Scourge', or something along
the lines of a great sickness/disease?  Also what is the Quenya word for
'foreigner' or non-elf?

Thanks
Ancalimon

Dorothea Salo wrote:

>         I can't actually think offhand of a good book that deals strictly
> with grammatical terminology. Can anyone else?

David Crystal: _A Dictionary of Linguistics and Phonetics_ published by
Blackwell.  It's fairly useful (even for linguists ;-).  Also, Webster's
New World Dictionary (3rd College edition) has definitions for some
grammatical terms (like allative etc.)

For Phonetic symbols, I'd get _Phonetic Symbol Guide_ by Geoffrey K.
Pullman and William A. Ladusaw.  It's excellent as it covers the way
different linguists use phonetic symbols (e.g. American vs. IPA etc).

Candon

David Salo wrote:

> >Ah, interesting.  I've used a Quenya-ized _so/ho_, would you use
> >_ho/cho_?
>
>    I think it's evident that h- wasn't "hyperlenited", as in "Narvi hain
> echant" -- which we can reconstruct in Old Sindarin as "*(Narvi) sani
> ekkhante".  Possibly we could take the forms with -n as accusatives?

It's tempting to see _ho, hon, hono_ as something like 'he, him, his.'
But if we use the -n forms as accusatives (him etc.) we run into trouble
with the other hypothesized possessive independent pronouns.  But I
suppose we could lengthen the vowels: _ni, nin, niin_ 'I, me, mine.'
Would we get _ce, cen, ceen_ or _ce, cen, cein_ for 'thou, thee,
thine/you, you, yours?'

Personally, I kind of like the _so, ho_ 'he, him' alternation.  I works
well with all the independent pronouns except _ni_ 'I' and _le_ 'you'
(e.g. _ce, che_ 'thou, thee;' _me, ve_ 'we, us.'

But, you're probably right about the accusative pronouns in -n as we
have attested forms like: _ammen_ 'for us.'


> >>    Wild beasts. "Brerg" is clearly an error; from BEREK we might get Berch
> >> or Breg, but not two r's!  The correct form should be Breg or Bre^g.  If
> >> you use the plural brig, vrig, it's a little less cacophonous than vrirg!
> >
> >Under the root MERE^K- C. Tolkien writes, "a N form _brerg_ 'wild,
> >fierce' was given..." It's possible that this is a typo.  As far as
> >cacophonous sounds, it doesn't sound that way to me.  True, native
> >English speakers would find it a bit  difficult to say, but compare
> >Welsh _ar yr bwrdd_ 'on the table.'
>
>    I don't find _that_ so hard (I guess the Sindar would try to write that
> "ar ir burdh" -- they didn't have anything quite like the Welsh y).  But
> the sound pattern CrVrC is absolutely alien to Sindarin.  Moreover -rk- in
> Sindarin always becomes -rch-, never -rg-: e.g. Carch < *karka "fang".
> [-rg- arises solely from 1) -rng- 2) -rVk- where V is an unstressed vowel
> in composition which is lost following lenition.] Using only known
> phonological processes, we can get from MERÉK> *merékâ > *m'reka > *breka >
> bre^g (cf. the similar developments of MORÓK), but _not_ brerg; I will
> stake whatever small scraps of reputation as a Sindarist that I may have on
> that.  I am absolutely sure that "brerg" is an error, perhaps by the editor
> reading a carelessly written circumflex as an r.

An excellent argument! I'm convinced.

> If we ever get to see a
> facsimile of The Etymologies we can check. :)

May the day come soon!

> >>   Annen > Ngannen.
> >
> >Why the restoration of the original consonant cluster here?
>
>    Not the cluster, but the plain nasal "eng" sound; which I take to be the
> lenition of nasal+stop clusters, nd > n, mb > m, ng > "eng".  Cf. di'
> nguruthos "under death-horror", where the ng is stated (in The Road Goes
> Ever On) to be the "eng" sound, and the guruth- element is known to come
> from a root beginning with NG (as a cluster).    In Taur i Melegyrn "Forest
> of the Great Trees" (a name for Taur im Duinath written on one of Tolkien's
> maps) we see the same sort of lenition, arising from a secondary cluster:
> inBelekorni > imbelekorni > immelegyrn > i Melegyrn.  Cf. the way that -mb-
> becomes -mm- or -m- between vowels, as in L(h)ammas, Amon (with amon "hill"
> cf. Q ambonnar in Markirya).

Very interesting!  This works for nasal + voiced (non-nasal) stop (e.g.
_emyn muil_ not *emyn nuil).  Would you consider the _i^n phain_ of the
"King's Letter" to be the unvoiced version of this kind of mutation?

Also, what do you think would happen with clusters like _nb_? Would the
nasal aquire the place of the stop or would stop merely lenite (e.g.
_nb_ > _mb_ or _nb_ > _nv_.  We could also get _nb_ > _nn_ or _nm_)?


> >> Welal: How about cenil?  We know Sindarin had Cenie "to see" because we
> >> have cened-ril for Mirrormere, where cened must be "seeing".
> >
> >I use _cenie_ as 'look' i.e. active seeing.
>
>    Not tiri?  Well, that's "gaze at".  What about tiira-, as in "e aniira
> tiirad vellyn i^n" -- "he desires to see his friends"?

Well, there is that.  I tend to use this verb as 'watch.'  So: _cenad_
'look;' _tirad_ 'watch;_ and _gwelad_ 'see.'  But, perhaps I should use
_tirad_ as at least it is an attested Sindarin form.

>
> >> I don't recognize "saga-".
> >
> >Also, from the Quenya Lexicon, this time under SAKA- _saka_ pursue, look
> >for, search.
>
>   Oh, okay. I just checked the Gnomish Lex., where sag- seems to refer to
> hatred or ferocity.

Interesting.  Would you create new Sindarin words first from the Gnomish
Lexicon and then from Qenya/Quenya?

> >> Bethant > bestant
> >
> >Q. _vesta-_ 'wed.'  Q. _st_ becomes _th_ in Noldorin isn't this true for
> >Sindarin? C.f. LAS- Q. _lasta_ 'listen' N. _lhathro_ 'listen in.'
>
>    It's not true for either Nold. or Sindarin.  "lasto beth lammen"!  -str-
> > -thr- is a particularly conditioned change (cf. istro > ithron = istar);
> but ista- "know" (and rhosta- "hollow out", gosta- "fear", esta- "call",
> gwesta- "swear", nasta- "prick", rista- "rend, rip", mista- "stray" etc.
> etc. )

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Candon

David Salo wrote:

> >I used _anw_ as under the root 3AN- Tolkien gives a specific Noldorin
> >word, whereas under _di^r_ he specifically states that _di^r_ has become
> >agentive in Noldorin and chiefly found in names.
>
>   Hm, I see.  There must be something wrong with Tolkien's phonological
> equation: Q hanu, ON anu is followed by N anw, but if you compare under MAN
> (Q manu, N ma^n) you can see that even a final -u is lost in N.  Under INI,
> anw is much more sensibly related to Q hanwa, which is the adjective
> "male".  As for di^r, it may be an archaic word in S., but you can permit
> yourself some archaism in poetry!  Di^r also occurs in the compound word
> diirnaith.

Shouldn't N. _anw_ correspond to S. _anu_?

> >Ah, interesting.  I've used a Quenya-ized _so/ho_, would you use
> >_ho/cho_?
>
>    I think it's evident that h- wasn't "hyperlenited", as in "Narvi hain
> echant" -- which we can reconstruct in Old Sindarin as "*(Narvi) sani
> ekkhante".  Possibly we could take the forms with -n as accusatives?

I think they are plurals.  The Q. nominal inflection shows that
there was a plural morpheme consisting of a nasal (IMHO probably
*-m, which IIANM would become -n word-finally in both S. and Q.)
I'm even inclined to regard it as originally a pronominal plural
ending, while *-r was a verbal plural ending and *-ii a nominal
one.  As we know they got pretty mixed up in Q.! :-)  I can't se
how a singular accusative could end in -n, unless it wasn't
derived from the dative, allative or instrumental, which seems
hard to believe semantically.  Of course it could be a plural
accusative, but we know that the primitive accusative ending was
certainly *-h/-3 (singular *-ah > Q. -aa, plural *-ahi > Q.
-ai -- *-ai becomes Q. -e, the adjectival nominative plural!),
and I find it hard to believe in a primitive *-h-m or *-m-h, but
I find it equally hard to believe in a combined accusative plural
ending *-m.  Better then to assume Telerin/Old Sindarin lacked a
nom/acc distinction in the plural!


/BP

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   B.Philip Jonsson  <bpj@...> <melroch@...>

         Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
                                             (Tacitus)

Candon wrote:

>I agree, but it seems to me that I've seen other strong Q. verbs which
>were mixed conjugation in Sindarin, and as I regularized the mixed
>conjugation, that is why I chose the forms I did.

David replied:

    There _are_ a few a-stems from CVC roots, they're just relatively rare.
I'm not sure what you refer to as a mixed conjugation; I would have used
the term for something like sogo (which has both past in -ant and also the
"strong" past sunc, which one normally sees with i-stems.)

I think Candon uses a term I invented for my A-L Sindarin article, where I
speak of A-stems from CVC-roots as the "mixed conjugation" (and yes, _sogo_
pa.t. _sunc_ is one of the verbs that belong here according to my
classification, though not because it can have an analogical past tense
_sogant_ besides _sunc_ - it is because the past tense can be _sunc_ at
all, for an A-stem would normally form its past tense in _-nt_, so we might
expect _sogant_ only). The first paragraph goes like this:

Some verbs that by their form would appear to be A-stems in effect sit on
the fence between the two conjugations outlined above [derived and basic
verbs, aka A-stems and I-stems]. An example is the verb _drava-_ "hew". In
most forms it is probably a well-behaved A-stem: infinitive _dravo_,
present tense _drava_, future tense _dravatha_, imperative _dravo_, active
participle _dravol_, gerund _dravad_. But in the past tense we would expect
the form *_dravant_, which does not occur. In Tolkien's notes as reproduced
in LR:354 s.v. DARÁM, he gave the 1. person past tense as _drammen_ ("I
hewed"), pointing to a 3. person form _dram_ ("he, she, it hewed"). (...) A
past tense _dram_ is precisely what we would expect if this were a basic
verb, with stem _drav-_ (infinitive **_drevi_) instead of _drava-_ (inf.
_dravo_). Another example is the verb _nara-_ "tell" (infinitive naro,
LR:374 s.v. NAR2); the Old Sindarin ("ON") past tense is given as _narne_,
implying that the Sindarin past tense would be _narn_ rather than
**_narant_. In short: A number of A-stems form their (3. person sg.) past
tense as if the final vowel did not exist; the past tense is formed
according to the rules of the basic verbs instead. Our few examples suggest
that this group includes most verbs with a single consonant before the
final -a, as long as this consonant is not _th_ or _ch_ (representing
earlier consonant clusters).

- Helge Fauskanger

>I just got an idea, and i thought i would post it because i know others
>who are making theyre own language,  I was thinking that making i could
>base words for Tyien from Elvish, Khuzdul, and others, thus i coulod
>make my own independant language and yet still study and learn Tolkiens
>languages

	 Well, I've heard a number of people take this tack for language
creation, and it's always made me a little squeamish. I think it's best to
come up with a framework for an invented language first -- a phonology, a
general idea as to morphological character, maybe a vague sort of syntax --
and only then consider importing words.

	 The danger is ending up with word-salad that simply doesn't make
any sense as an independent language -- something that happens all too
often in fantasy and science fiction these days.

	 But I am seriously wandering off-topic here, so let me wrench
myself back on. It occurred to me that it's possible to study more than one
language at once -- including Tolkien's -- if you're careful to study
similar aspects of the languages at the same time. This allows you to
compare and contrast the languages, and use each one as a mnemonic device
for the other ones. As you build your store of languages, I think you'll
find that you start doing this quite automatically -- "oh, it's got an
aspectual distinction sort of like Russian" and so on.

	 John Quijada sent me citations for books on linguistic terminology,
and is graciously permitting me to pass them on to you:

>How about the following two books (particularly the first one)?:
>
>* A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics by R.L. Trask
>(Routledge, Inc., New York, New York, 1993)
>* The Linguistics Encyclopedia, edited by Kirsten Malmkjer  (Routledge,
>Inc., New York, New York, 1991)

	 I am going to pop this question and the answers from John and from
Candon Clannach into the FAQ, if neither John, Candon, nor C.J. objects. Of
course they will be credited.

	 I'm going to do a search of Elfling messages for topics that might
be worth FAQ inclusion. I'll let the elfaq list know what I come up with
(not least because I expect to need their help in coming up with answers!).

Dorothea

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dorothea Salo       <*>           |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa,
dorothea@...             |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_

In the name _Fëanáro_, does the _-o_ indicate a genitive case, or is it
a masculine ending? Are noun inflections such as the genitive allowed
in compounds and/or names?

T.C.

A quick follow-up to my last question... I meant to ask, can
inflections be used in the *nominative* forms of compounds... a word
such as _Ardalambion_ (to use the title of Helge Fauskanger's
marvellous page as an example) is certainly a compound with a genitive
ending, but that ending refers to the whole compound, (I think... does
that make sense?) and not just to a part of it.

What I want to know is if it is possible to form a name like, oh...
_Ailináreva_, "pool of sunlight", with the possessive ending referring
to only the last part, _árë_. So that even though there is a possessive
ending on the name, this would actually be the nominative form of it.

T.C.

T.C wrote:
>
>In the name _Fëanáro_, does the _-o_ indicate a genitive case, or is it
>a masculine ending?

It is the genetive. His Mother? apparently deteted his fiery passion from an
early stage and thus named him "spirit of flame" -> Fea-naare-o -> Feanaaro

>Are noun inflections such as the genitive allowed
>in compounds and/or names?

Yes although I can't think of another example right now

>What I want to know is if it is possible to form a name like, oh...
>_Ailináreva_, "pool of sunlight", with the possessive ending >referring
>to only the last part, _árë_. So that even though there is a >possessive
>ending on the name, this would actually be the nominative form of it.

Yes, but talking specifically of your example it would be _ailinaaro_
beacause the other would imply the sun's ownwership of the pool - maybe he
has one in his back yard? but do suns have back yards...
HMm metaphysical :)
anyway there you go, I don't know what the genetive inflexion of _ailinaaro_
would be, but like that it is a nominative.

>I meant to ask, can inflections be used in the *nominative* forms of
> >compounds... a word such as _Ardalambion_ (to use the title of Helge
> >Fauskanger's marvellous page as an example)

good example :)

>is certainly a compound with a genitive ending, but that ending >refers to
>the whole compound, (I think... does that make sense?) and >not just to a
>part of it.

perfectly quite and exactly, the sudden flash of amazement when you discover
that _Quenta silmarillion_ and _ardalambion_ actually have a grammatical
structure to them is quite exhilarting, is it not…? I remember the feeling
as though it were yesterday -it was actually last month but near enough.
_ardalambe_ is however the nominative of _ardalambion_ or is it _lambi_ I
know one is tongue and the other language but i never remember which.

gotta go Namaarie

greg -Tirno-


T.C.



>
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______________________________________________________

I know this group is geared toward more scholarly questions.. but I
stumbled upon it while trying to find a translation of a particular
word on the web for a friend, and as I have been unsuccessful so far
was hoping for some quick help.

He is looking for a translation of "Longbow" (as is the weapon) to
Elvish.

I would greatly appreciate any help.

Thanks,

Andrew Wood
Mirth@...

 

In the name _Fëanáro_, does the _-o_ indicate a genitive case, or is it a masculine ending? Are noun inflections such as the genitive allowed in compounds and/or names? T.C.

>In the name _Fëanáro_, does the _-o_ indicate a genitive case, or is it
>a masculine ending? Are noun inflections such as the genitive allowed
>in compounds and/or names?
>
>T.C.
>
>
>
>
>Actually the -o doesn't indicate a noun case at all.

It DO mark genitive (eg in _Alatariello_ "Galadriel's"), though I agree it's
probably not genitive in _Fëanáro_.
>
>I am of the opinion that an -o anding on a noun is actually a neuter
>agental marker.
>
>I don't have the Etymologies so I cannot cite you any direct quotes,  but I
>can give you my viewpoint on the náro in
>Feanaro (excuse the lack of diacritics)

It's more like a masculine one, look a _sermo_ "(male) friend" and _sermë_
"(female) friend". However, like in many languages, Quenya tends to use the
masc form when it's unimportant which gender it is.

BTW, the nom and gen of Q words in _-o_ are identical; _ciryamo_ "mariner",
_ciryamo_ "mariner's".

                                           Andreas

______________________________________________________

>
>I know this group is geared toward more scholarly questions.. but I
>stumbled upon it while trying to find a translation of a particular
>word on the web for a friend, and as I have been unsuccessful so far
>was hoping for some quick help.
>
>He is looking for a translation of "Longbow" (as is the weapon) to
>Elvish.

Well, bow is _quinga_ in Quenya, so a longbow may be _andaquinga_ or maybe
contracted _anquinga_. A Sindarin form could be _ambeng_ (I think; bow is
_peng_, and I think n+p produces _mb_, but I'm sure DSalo would point it out
if I'm wrong!)

                                 Andreas
>
>I would greatly appreciate any help.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Andrew Wood
>Mirth@...
>
>
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>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/elfling
>http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
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>

______________________________________________________

At 14:49 -0700 7.9.1999, lindril@... wrote:
>A quick follow-up to my last question... I meant to ask, can
>inflections be used in the *nominative* forms of compounds... a
word
>such as _Ardalambion_ (to use the title of Helge Fauskanger's
>marvellous page as an example) is certainly a compound with a
genitive
>ending, but that ending refers to the whole compound, (I
think... does
>that make sense?) and not just to a part of it.
>
>What I want to know is if it is possible to form a name like,
oh...
>_Ailináreva_, "pool of sunlight", with the possessive ending
referring
>to only the last part, _árë_. So that even though there is a
possessive
>ending on the name, this would actually be the nominative form
of it.
>
>T.C.

Not so.  The compound _ailinaare_ already means "pool of sunlight"
(or perhaps better "sunlight-pool") as it is.  adding the _-va_
ending effectively adds another possessive, so that _ailinaareeva_
means "of a sunlight-pool".

I hope this makes things clearer.  The problem actually lies in
how English translates the compounds of other languages -- only
sometimes as compounds, and at other times as adjectival phrases,
possessive (of/'s) phrases, or appositional noun phrases (e.g.
_orange juice_.)

The latter are actually compounds disguised by English spelling
conventions, and might just as well be written _orange-juice_ or
_orangejuice_ (or even better, since _orange juice_ is pronounced
differently when it means "a juice of orange color" (like Fanta,
kind of!  :), where "orange" is an adjective, from when it means
"juice made of oranges" (the kind most people would prefer with
their toasted bread.)  Personally I think English-writing people
should hyphenate more boldly, the intonation mostly being a good
guide to when the first word is an adjective, and when it is the
first part of a compound.  I'm not a native Anglophone, however,
so I probably should not not have written that last sentence!  ;-)


/BP

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   B.Philip Jonsson  <bpj@...> <melroch@...>

         Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
                                             (Tacitus)

Tirno wrote:

> Yes, but talking specifically of your example it would be _ailinaaro_
> beacause the other would imply the sun's ownwership of the pool

Hmm. That's not the impression I got from the Namárië (Namaarie) poem:
_"yuldar...lissë-miruvóreva"_, draughts of sweet mead--Though I *have*
heard that this example is not a good one for showing the 'normal' uses
of the possessive case.

Still, I thought that using the genitive would imply that that the pool
was something that had left the sunlight's possession. :) Can someone
clarify these two cases for me?

T.C.

>In the name _Fëanáro_, does the _-o_ indicate a genitive case, or is it
>a masculine ending? Are noun inflections such as the genitive allowed
>in compounds and/or names?

    I think it has to be treated grammatically as a masculine ending,
although I suppose it contains a pun on the phrase fea naaro "spirit of
fire".  The difference being that if it were to be treated grammatically as
a form of the phrase, then if I wanted to say (for instance) "for Feanor" I
would be obliged to say Feannaaro (sc. fean naaro) and not Feanaaron; for
"from Feanor" I would have to say Feallonaaro instead of Feanarollo.  In
Aikanaaro, where the element aika is explicitly adjectival (The Peoples of
Middle-earth pp. 347, 363), naaro cannot be genitival.

    There _are_ some cases where inflected forms are used for a noun as a
whole, or for part of a compound noun.  E.g.:
    Elenna, Roomenna, Eldanna.  Which raises some question for these nouns,
e.g., how do you say "to Roomenna" -- Roomennanna?  In one case where we
see Elenna inflected, it is done by turning it into a kind of redundant
country: instead of *Elenno "of Elenna" we see Elenna-noore "of the
Elenna-country" or literally "of the country toward the star".  So perhaps
to indicate "to Roomenna" we'd be forced to say in Quenya "Roomenna
ostonna" -- "to the eastward city."
   We also have forms which include duals or plurals as part of the compound:
Dual: Aldu-deenie "two-trees lament"
Plural: Vali-mar "Valar dwelling", Vali-noore "Valar-country"
    And sometimes, especially in the older material, we see undeniable cases:
Tinwerontar "Stars'queen".
    I suspect that there are actually more of these than we can positively
detect, since either the structure of Quenya at the time of creation, or
later changes to Quenya, obscure the identity of the case ending.
    E.g., in The Etymologies the word for earth is keen, genitive kemen (we
still had genitives ending in -en back in those days).  So it is not
unnatural to suspect Kementaari of meaning "Earth'squeen".  But in later
materials we see kemen=earth (Morgoth's Ring, p. 387) -- nullifying any
need to interpet the name that way.  So also with Tar-Herunuumen "Lord of
the West" we have to wonder if the name was originally = heru nuume-n
"Lordwest's"; since we have nuume as well as nuumen meaning "west's".  It
is very hard to tell.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Some word requests...

> He is looking for a translation of "Longbow" (as is the weapon) to
Elvish.

Quenya _Andacú_ or_Andaquinga_, Sindarin _Angú_ or _Ambeng_ (? - _an(d)_ +
_peng_).

And another:

> What is the [Sindarin] word for 'Scourge', 'The Scourge', or something
along the lines of a great sickness/disease?  Also what is the [Sindarin]
word for 'foreigner' or non-elf?

_Cael_ means "lying in bed, sickness", _paw_ is simply glossed "sickness",
and so is "Noldorin" _thliw, fliw_, that would correspond to Sindarin
*_lhiw_ (or *_lhi^w_), taking into account certain phonological revisions
Tolkien introduced after writing the Etymologies. Starting with, say,
_cael_ you may add the ending _-on_ suggesting something great (as in
_aearon_ "great sea"). So what about _Caelon_, with article _i Gaelon_?
(Notice lenition C > G.)

I know no Sindarin word explicitly referring to a non-Elvish sentient as
such, nor any word for "foreigner" (or even "foreign"). For "non-Elf" we
may construct something like _aledhel_ (pl. _aledhil_, archaic perhaps also
_eledhil_).

- Helge Fauskanger

Aiya ilye,

Talking of feanaaro -BTW isn't there a quote in PM about this name (I'll
check when I get back home)- reminded me of a few questions I've been
wanting to ask:
What is the difference between Elendil and Elendur? (I ask because I have
friend who's *original* Email is "elendur@..."
_-ndur_, _-ndil_, both seem to imply devotion and love. _Amandil_ lover of
aman (Sill.) _Mardil_ faithfull to the house.

then Elendil's sons Isildur, Anaarion seem to imply *devotion* to the moon
and the sun (or city of the moon and city of the sun to be historicaly
accurate) so is _-ion_ a simmilar root to _-ndur_ or is it a -rather
strange- genetive. Which would be wrong, maybe Elendil was a poor speaker of
the parmalambe. No offense Elendil!

And my name: Gregory from ęgregein (which to coin a phrase is greek to me)
meaning watcher, sentinel, vigilante, which gives me _Tirno_ or if I feel
pretentious _Tirnon_ both attested words but in Sill. I found Elentirmo the
epesse of Tar-someone-or-other (from nuumenore :)) who liked to gaze at the
stars…

To move from the subject of names, "I gave it to the elf" for example, do I
use an allative or a dative _antanyes quendenna_ ,_antanyes quenden_? and
for time clauses, since for instance could we form _luumennella- "from the
time"

For a farewell, is _Siin namaarie_

"bye for now"?

if it is, I've just said it

Greg -Tirno-

______________________________________________________

Thanks Helge.
My offsider expresses his thanks as well

Regards
Ancalimon






"Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...> on 09/10/99 10:03:15 AM

Please respond to elfling@egroups.com

To:   elfling@egroups.com
cc:    (bcc: Graeme J Finsen/AU/Schneider)

Subject:  [elfling] Longbows of the sick non-Elves




Some word requests...

> He is looking for a translation of "Longbow" (as is the weapon) to
Elvish.

Quenya _Andac

ú_ or_Andaquinga_, Sindarin _Angú_ or _Ambeng_ (? - _an(d)_ +
_peng_).

And another:

> What is the [Sindarin] word for 'Scourge', 'The Scourge', or something
along the lines of a great sickness/disease?  Also what is the [Sindarin]
word for 'foreigner' or non-elf?

_Cael_ means "lying in bed, sickness", _paw_ is simply glossed "sickness",
and so is "Noldorin" _thliw, fliw_, that would correspond to Sindarin
*_lhiw_ (or *_lhi^w_), taking into account certain phonological revisions
Tolkien introduced after writing the Etymologies. Starting with, say,
_cael_ you may add the ending _-on_ suggesting something great (as in
_aearon_ "great sea"). So what about _Caelon_, with article _i Gaelon_?
(Notice lenition C > G.)

I know no Sindarin word explicitly referring to a non-Elvish sentient as
such, nor any word for "foreigner" (or even "foreign"). For "non-Elf" we
may construct something like _aledhel_ (pl. _aledhil_, archaic perhaps also
_eledhil_).

- Helge Fauskanger



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>From: lindril@...
>Reply-To: elfling@egroups.com
>To: elfling@eGroups.com
>Subject: [elfling] Re: Fëanáro
>Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 15:27:14 -0700
>
>Tirno wrote:
>
> > Yes, but talking specifically of your example it would be _ailinaaro_

but I was wrong _ailinaare_ is the correct form

> > beacause the other would imply the sun's ownwership of the pool

that's right BTW
  >
>Hmm. That's not the impression I got from the Namárië (Namaarie) poem:
>_"yuldar...lissë-miruvóreva"_, draughts of sweet mead--Though I *have*
>heard that this example is not a good one for showing the 'normal' uses
>of the possessive case.

yes and no, you might have studied french if you have, the prepostition "de"
corresponds to the genetive and implies origin or description. "ŕ" is
ownership and posession, there is a particularity which means vanilla ice
cream is "glace ŕ! la vanille" this I like to see in namaarie,
mead-flavoured draughts, maybe, maybe not hopefully others can help

greg- tirno-
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>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/elfling
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>
>
>
>

______________________________________________________

>
>then Elendil's sons Isildur, Anaarion seem to imply *devotion* to the moon
>and the sun (or city of the moon and city of the sun to be historicaly
>accurate) so is _-ion_ a simmilar root to _-ndur_ or is it a -rather
>strange- genetive. Which would be wrong, maybe Elendil was a poor speaker
>of
>the parmalambe. No offense Elendil!
>

The ending _-ion_ can mean "-son" (eg _Lómion_ "Twilight-son"), so I think
Anarion should translate as "Sunson". The difference between _-ndur_ and
_-ndil_ is, more or less, the diffence between a devoted servant and a
devoted friend. Atested example: _Arandil_ "Kingfriend"=royalist, _Arandur
"Kingservant"=minister.

                                           Andreas

______________________________________________________

"G. Dyke" wrote:

>
> What is the difference between Elendil and Elendur?

**_Elendur_ could be a variant of _Elendil_, but the former would mean
lit.
"star-servant" and the latter "star-friend", but since Edain were
confused
whether element _el_ refers to "star" or "elf", they translated
_Elendil_ as
"Elf-friend", thus _Elendur_ as "elf-servant". (cf. WJ:410, Note 10)

> (I ask because I have
> friend who's *original* Email is "elendur@..."
> _-ndur_, _-ndil_, both seem to imply devotion and love. _Amandil_ lover of
> aman (Sill.) _Mardil_ faithfull to the house.
>
> then Elendil's sons Isildur, Anaarion seem to imply *devotion* to the moon
> and the sun (or city of the moon and city of the sun to be historicaly
> accurate) so is _-ion_ a simmilar root to _-ndur_ or is it a -rather
> strange- genetive.

**_Isildur_ is "Moon-servant" and _Anaarion_ is "Sun-son". An ending
_-ion_
means "son, descendant of". (see Etym under YON)

>
> To move from the subject of names, "I gave it to the elf" for example, do I
> use an allative or a dative _antanyes quendenna_ ,_antanyes quenden_?

**I'd use dative that refers to prepositions "to" and "for". But
allative to
"to", "into" and "upon". It deals rather with a placement, while dative
with
an indirect object in english, thus _antanenyes i quenden_ "I gave it to
the
elf" (you wrote _antanyes_, but this is present tense "I give/I'm
giving")
(_anta-ne-nye-s i quende-n "give-past tense-I-it the elf-to")

> and
> for time clauses, since for instance could we form _luumennella- "from the
> time"

**"From the time" _i luumello_, though Tolkien translated _loome_ as
"hour"
in LotR.

>
>
> For a farewell, is _Siin namaarie_
>
> "bye for now"?

**Seems to me rather as an english phrase. I'd use simply _namaarie_ or
_sii
namaarie_ "now farewell".



Ales Bican

Greetings, I'm new to the list and I need alittle help. What are some of
the Transition words and the like in Quenya? Such as:
Are,But,and,the,can,is,also ect,ect,ect.
I cant seem to find anything on it but it maybe I have not looked hard
enough ;)


-Havok

Andreas Johannson
>The ending _-ion_ can mean "-son" (eg _LŰmion_ "Twilight-son"), so I think
>Anarion should translate as "Sunson".

    The Egyptians used as one of their most common royal titles s' r'
(Sa're') meaning "son of the Sun"; this was also (in appearance anyway) the
dynastic title of the  Kings of Gondor, who were Anárioni -- which was, I
imagine, supposed to be a collapsed version of *Anárionioni "Descendants of
Anaarion" but came out looking like "Descendants/Sons of the Sun."  Tolkien
did make out the Gondorians as having a rather Egyptian style sometimes;
though there are other places (e.g. India) where royal families have
characterized themselves as being of a "Solar race".
    I imagine that -ion in these cases -- being obviously not a natural
patronymic, nor even (within the context of the 2nd and 3rd Age Mannish
myths we know) a reference to an ancestor -- must mean something like
"filially devoted to"; being related to the other "celestial" names of the
Numenoreans: Elendil, Elendur, Meneldur, Anardil, Isildur.  In the list of
Numenorean kings, we have Tar-Elendil "friend of stars", his son
Tar-Meneldur "servant of heaven", his son Tar-Aldarion whose true name was
Anardil "friend of the Sun".  Tar-Anaarion, his grandson, is the last of
the Númenórean kings with celestial names, but they are revived with the
Exiled Dunedain, and so we have Elendil, Isildur, Elendur in Arnor;
Anárion, Meneldil, Anardil in Gondor.
    In more general terms, they could be seen in terms of the
"Vala-devotional" names which express a dedication to some particular Vala
-- which can be compared with such names in, for instance, Greece as
Dęmętrios "devoted to Dęmętęr", Apollônios "devoted to Apollôn."  So we
have general names like Valandil "Theophilos, Óswine", Valandur
"Theodoulos, Ósthéow", and Amandil "lover of the Blessed realm"; more
particularly Vardamir "jewel of Varda", Manwendil "friend of Manwe"
(Diophilos?), Oromendil "friend of Orome".  Connected with these are the
"element-devotional" names, which could be seen as an indirect reference to
a Vala or Valar, or Maiar; Cemendur "servant of earth" could be taken as
referring to Yavanna Cementári, or also to Aule; Meneldur could refer to
both Varda and Manwe; while Elendur would suggest more particularly Varda
Elentaari.  Earendil and Earendur might suggest a devotion to, not just the
physical sea, but also Ulmo, Osse, and Uinen; one group of Númenórean
mariners styled themselves "Uinendili."  So names referring to Anar and
Isil might be taken as indirect references to Árien and Tilion.

/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David Salo
<dsalo@...> <>

Alasse'are, i lambengolmor!
Faced some difficulties with the verb forms....Quite a nut to crack they
were...
1.How to form the perfect of the prefixed verbs (like ENYALA-,
ETTUL-,VAQUET-, MAQUET-),suffixed verbs like FALASTA-, composite verbs like
OHTACAR-?
2.The perfect forms of AHYA-, HILYA-, ISTA-, CAITA-(acaatie???), LAITA-,
ROITA-, ORTA-, OMENDA-, SUILA-, LOISA-, YANTA-?
3.Shall the future form of LELYA be LENDUVA?
4.Any nasal infixion in the past and future forms of METYA?
5.The perfect of QUET- "equetie" or "eque"?
Thanks for any comments
yours truly THE MUSHROOM AELF

______________________________________________________

David Salo wrote:

>
>   There _are_ some cases where inflected forms are used for a noun as a
>whole, or for part of a compound noun.  E.g.:
>   Elenna, Roomenna, Eldanna.  Which raises some question for these nouns,
>e.g., how do you say "to Roomenna" -- Roomennanna?  In one case where we
>see Elenna inflected, it is done by turning it into a kind of redundant
>country: instead of *Elenno "of Elenna" we see Elenna-noore "of the
>Elenna-country" or literally "of the country toward the star".  So perhaps
>to indicate "to Roomenna" we'd be forced to say in Quenya "Roomenna
>ostonna" -- "to the eastward city."

  There are some place-names in Old Norse and the other dialects of
  Old Scandinavian that are inseparably attached to a preceding
  preposition governing the dative case -- normally _á_ "on" or
  _at_ "at" --, and the name itself is so to speak fixed in the
  dative plural case.  The only example i can recall off the top of
  my head is _at Skörum_ -- now Skara in Sweden, which behaves as a
  norma singular noun.  Almost certainly these names were
  originally names for the tribes or clans that lived at the place,
  so that _at Skörum_ would be analogous to a modern English phrase
  like _at the Shears_, meaning "at the Shear family's
  place/house".  It works surprisingly well, since the context
  usually makes clear what kind of preposition or case would have
  been used with a place-name behaving as a normal noun.  With
  verbs of motion like "come" or "go", where some kind of
  circumlocution would be necessary to clarify.  Since e.g. _Hann
  hef komit at Sörum_ might mean either "He has come from Skara"
  or "He has come to Skara" one would have to use the longer
  expressions equivalent to "He is back from his journey _at
  Skörum_" or "He has come and is _at Skörum_".  This is not to
  say that this type of name was unproblematic to language
  users -- they have after all disappeared from the modern
  languages --, but I think the problem was that they were
  structurally abnormal, not semantic ambiguity.

  BTW there are many German place-names in -en that are
  historically dative plurals of a tribal name.

  [á = a-acute and ö = o-umlaut, FYI in case they get messed-up for
  someone!]

>  We also have forms which include duals or plurals as part of the compound:
>Dual: Aldu-deenie "two-trees lament"
>Plural: Vali-mar "Valar dwelling", Vali-noore "Valar-country"
>   And sometimes, especially in the older material, we see undeniable cases:
>Tinwerontar "Stars'queen".

  It is a well-known phenomenon from Old Germanic languages that
  the first part of a compound is identifiable as a case-form --
  usually genitive singular or plural, although datives also occur
  -- rather than being a bare stem.  The German equivalent of the
  English expression _a men's name_ is _Männername_, a compound
  with the first part in the plural.  In Swedish many compounds
  show now meaningless "linking vowels" that are historically
  genitive endings.  Only in compounds with a "linking -s-" is this
  still identifiable as a genitive ending, but the distinction
  between a singular genitive -s- and an old genitive plural -a- is
  still meaningful in some compounds.  For example the singular
  genitive _guds-_ usuausual refers to "God" as a semi-proper-name,
  while _guda-_ (an old genitive plural) refers to pagan/polytheist
  "god(s)", as _gudsman_ "servant of God" vs.  _gudaman_ "a man who
  is a god" or "a god-like man" (like a Greek demi-god maybe an
  Avatar of Vishnu like Rama or Krishna, or the way some sectarian
  Muslims regard Ali -- or even the way some movie-stars are hyped!
  I think you get the idea.)  Sometimes the presence vs.  absence
  of an historical genitive ending will be significant, e.g.
  _kvinnfolk_ "female person(s)" -- a slightly derogatory term
  nowadays, so I beg the forgiveness of Swedish-speaking women
  reading this! -- vs. _kvinnofolk_ " people of women" -- like the
  Amazons.

  I guess those who know Old English and other Old Germanic
  languages better than I do can find this kind of examples there,
  so it is not at all surprising to find that kind of thing in
  Tolkien's languages!

  David Salo will certainly think of Finnish words like _maantie_
  lit. "country's-road", which of course also is a possible
  influence on Tolkien.  I also have read that inflected first
  parts of compounds occur with some frequency in Hungarian and in
  Turkic languages.



/BP

  B.Philip Jonsson  <bpj@...> <melroch@...>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
             Anant' avanaute quettalmar!               \ \
    __  ____ ____    _____________  ___ __   __ __     / /
    \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
    / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
   / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /Melarocco\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
  /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine__   / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
I neer Pityancalimeo\ \_____/ /ar/ /_atar Mercasso naan
~~~~~~~~~Cuinondil~~~\_______/~~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda cuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

In Sindarin, initial G is often lenited to zero: _galadh_ "tree", but _i
'aladh_ "the tree". The ' indicating the position where _g_ would have
occurred if the word had not been mutated is called a _gasdil_ or "stopgap"
(LR:354 s.v. DIL). We have a few examples of the gasdil in our corpus, such
as Ered-'orgoroth (LR:298) and _Curuniir 'La^n_ (UT:390), the ' indicating
that _'orgoroth_ and _'la^n_ represent _gorgoroth_ and _gla^n.

In some cases, though, the gasdil is absent where we might have expected to
find it. One such case is the name _Ered Wethrin_, "Shadowy Mountains",
where_wethrin_ "shadowy" is the lenited form of the adjective _gwethrin_,
pl. of _gwathren_. Compare the noun _gwath_ "shade", LR:397 s.v. WATH. So
why not _Ered 'Wethrin_? Another case is _i-Wenyn_ for "the twins" in
PM:353 - why not _i- 'Wenyn_, since the unlenited form is clearly meant to
be _Gwenyn_?

As any serious student of these languages knows, Tolkien's spelling of
Elvish words is often quite variable and inconsistent. Hence, this is not
necessarily a big deal. It is curious, though, that turning to the mutation
table in the Gnomish Grammar of 1917, we find that the lenited forms of
initial _g-_, _gr-_ and _gl-_ are listed as _'_, _'r_, and _'l_,
respectively - but the lenited form of _gw-_ is simply given as _w-_, NOT
_'w-_. Is there something special with _gw-_? Of course, one must be VERY
careful about using Gnomish as the basis for conclusions about Sindarin;
far too many revisions separate the two. Still, the words _Wethrin_ and
_Wenyn_ are definitely Sindarin - and just as in Gnomish, there is no hint
of any gasdil to indicate the loss of the G that occurs in the unlenited
forms. Why doesn't _gw-_ behave like simple _g-_ or clusters like _gl-_?

My compatriot Tor Gjerde has pointed out to me that an answer may be found
in diachronic phonology. What, really, is the most basic function of the
gasdil? "It was...a sign used to indicate that _g_ had disappeared,"
Christopher Tolkien notes (LR:354 s.v. DIL). He adds a cross-reference to
page 298 in the same book, where it is said that _g_ was first "opened" to
a spirant _3_ (also spelt _gh_), "which then weakened and disappeared". The
gasdil could be seen simply as a graphic representation of this _3_,
surviving in orthography even after the sound itself had disappeared - a
common enough phenomenon in the orthographies of languages that were
reduced to writing already a long time ago. This leads to another question:
Was the lenited form of _gw_ ever _3w_? If not, the absence of the gasdil
in words like _wethrin_, _Wenyn_ would no longer be any mystery. We must
determine where Sindarin initial _gw-_ comes from.

The evolution from Primitive Elvish to Sindarin is quite complex. No
*original* initial GW- survived into Sindarin; this initial combination
became B just like its unvoiced counterpart KW became P. Hence we have
"Noldorin"/Sindarin _bein_ "fair" from the stem GWEN (LR:359; read perhaps
_bain_ in LotR-style Sindarin, but that is of less importance). Where
Sindarin shows initial _gw-_, it represents simple _w-_ in the primitive
language. We have already mentioned a word like _gwath_ "shade", derived
from the stem WATH. The systematic expansion of initial _w-_ to _gw-_ is
quite late; it had not occurred at the Old Sindarin stage (the Old
Sindarin/"Noldorin" form of _gwath_ is given in the Etymologies as
_watha_). So what if _w_ simply *never turned into* _gw_ in lenition
position? General principles would point to the conclusion that an Old
Sindarin phrase like _i-watha_ "the shade" would be treated as a unitary
word as Classical Sindarin evolved, and since the change _w_ > _gw_ only
occurred initially, we get directly to Sindarin _i wath_. There would be no
*_i gwath(a)_ > *_i 3wath(a)_ at any stage. And if the function of the
gasdil is simply to indicate "that _g_ had disappeared", it logically has
nothing to do here. There never was any G, so it couldn't disappear either.

True, also an initial combination like _gl-_, that *does* show the gasdil
when lenited (_'l-_), was usually expanded from simple initial L - and this
expansion would hardly happen in lenition position. This still is not a
parallel case: Tolkien indicates that the expansion _l-_ > _gl-_ happened
long before lenition had been heard of, much earlier than the change _w-_ >
_gw-_. As demonstrated above, the latter development occurred after the Old
Sindarin stage, while the expansion _l-_ > _gl-_ happened very early -
WJ:380, 411 indicates that _glindaa_ as a variant of _lindaa_ occurred
already in Primitive Quendian. Thus _gl-_ was a long established
combination when lenition occurred, and so we had _3l_ > _'l_. Initial
_gw-_, on the other hand, may well have evolved AFTER lenition started to
operate in the language - precluding that _w-_ ever became _gw-_, and hence
not _3w-_> _'w_ either, in lenition position.

It seems, then, that it is possible to explain the lack of any gasdil in
phrases like _Ered Wethrin_, _i-Wenyn_: Initial _gw-_ is a special case,
not to be compared to _g-_, _gl-_, _gr-_.

- Helge Fauskanger

I'd like to know if there's any way to make a comparative form of an
adjective, as in "fairer, more fair". The only thing I could come up
with was to use _pella_, "beyond", to say something like: "You are fair
*beyond* her", meaning "You are fairer than her." Can _pella_ be used
in this rather non-physical sense?

If there is a better way to do it (a word for "more", perhaps), I'd be
very interested to know about it. Also, what would be the word for
"than" in a comparative sentence like that?

T.C.

> Greetings, I'm new to the list and I need alittle help. What are some of
the Transition words and the like in Quenya? Such as:
Are,But,and,the,can,is,also

are: _nar_

but: _nan_

and: _ar_

the: _i_

can (verb) - you may try _tur-_, that is glossed "can" in the early Qenya
Lexicon; related glosses like "control" occur in later sources

is: _naa_ (in some contexts better _ea_)

also: The Qenya Lexicon has _yando_; we may use it until later material
becomes available (I suspect _yando_ was scrapped together with _ya(n)_ as
the word for "and"; later sources have _ar_, as indicated above. But
_yando_ is at least genuine Tolkien.)

- Helge Fauskanger

>David Salo wrote:
>
>>
>>   There _are_ some cases where inflected forms are used for a noun as a
>>whole, or for part of a compound noun.  E.g.:
>>   Elenna, Roomenna, Eldanna.  Which raises some question for these nouns,
>>e.g., how do you say "to Roomenna" -- Roomennanna?  In one case where we
>>see Elenna inflected, it is done by turning it into a kind of redundant
>>country: instead of *Elenno "of Elenna" we see Elenna-noore "of the
>>Elenna-country" or literally "of the country toward the star".  So perhaps
>>to indicate "to Roomenna" we'd be forced to say in Quenya "Roomenna
>>ostonna" -- "to the eastward city."
>
> There are some place-names in Old Norse and the other dialects of
> Old Scandinavian that are inseparably attached to a preceding
> preposition governing the dative case -- normally _á_ "on" or
> _at_ "at" --, and the name itself is so to speak fixed in the
> dative plural case.  The only example i can recall off the top of
> my head is _at Skörum_ -- now Skara in Sweden, which behaves as a
> norma singular noun.  Almost certainly these names were
> originally names for the tribes or clans that lived at the place,
> so that _at Skörum_ would be analogous to a modern English phrase
> like _at the Shears_, meaning "at the Shear family's
> place/house".  It works surprisingly well, since the context
> usually makes clear what kind of preposition or case would have
> been used with a place-name behaving as a normal noun.  With
> verbs of motion like "come" or "go", where some kind of
> circumlocution would be necessary to clarify.  Since e.g. _Hann
> hef komit at Sörum_ might mean either "He has come from Skara"
> or "He has come to Skara" one would have to use the longer
> expressions equivalent to "He is back from his journey _at
> Skörum_" or "He has come and is _at Skörum_".  This is not to
> say that this type of name was unproblematic to language
> users -- they have after all disappeared from the modern
> languages --, but I think the problem was that they were
> structurally abnormal, not semantic ambiguity.
>
> BTW there are many German place-names in -en that are
> historically dative plurals of a tribal name.

Something similar to the _at Skörum_ case is found in German (especially
westphalian) family names. Such as: Meier ( a sort of farmer) to Krax
				     Meier 	      to Behrens etc.

These are evidently Low German, but there are examples in High German as
well, e.g.: _Vor dem Esche_, _Auf der Heide_ = 'in front of the ash', 'on
the heath'. These names look comparatively young, though modern german
standard grammar wd use _vor DER Esche_. Perhaps the name is an
abbreviation for sth. like: _vor dem Esche(n)holz_ 'in front of the
ash-holt/wood. Still the form could simply be an imperfect adaption of a
Low German name to High German.
Quite a few originally Low German names were High-Germanized for
administrative/official purposes when High German finally took over the
role of the official language in all of Germany. Clarity is naturally
achieved by the fact, that these names are always used together with words
like _Herr, Frau, Familie_ or the like.

David Kiltz