Dear friends,

      I am Thaddaeus A. Vick, and I have just joined this list, so here

is

my introduction.  I am 23 years old, and a freshman at Berry College in

Rome, Georgia, USA, majoring in computer science.  I've been interested

in both linguistics and Tolkien for years, although I haven't been able

to find much information on his languages before discovering the

Ardalambion web site.  (Basically all I had was the appendices to RotK

and the Silmarillion.)  I once devised a tengwar mode that was capable

of representing English, Greek, Hebrew, and Gaelic, as far as I

understood

any of those languages.  I took two years of koine' Greek at a previous

college, of which I remember almost nothing, but I still have all the

books.  I was active in the Klingon language community for a couple of

years, and still can speak it a bit.  I've also dabbled in Esperanto.

I've been a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism for two

years.  I would like to learn as much Elvish as it is possible to learn

with the references available.

      And here's something interesting I ran across just tonight,

although

it may have been mentioned before, it's new to me:  in Spanish, the name

"Adam" - the first man - is pronounced "Adan".  I wonder if this could

be related to the Quenya "Atan", and the Sindarin "Adan".



==

Thaddaeus A. Vick, Linguist to the Masses

Email: ThaddaeusV@...

   URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/2605

      "Give me the songs of a nation, and it matters

not who writes their laws."                -- Plato

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Thaddeus A. Vick wrote:



>     And here's something interesting I ran across just tonight,

>although

>it may have been mentioned before, it's new to me:  in Spanish, the name

>"Adam" - the first man - is pronounced "Adan".  I wonder if this could

>be related to the Quenya "Atan", and the Sindarin "Adan".



	 Possibly, although I think there may be a little more to it than

just this one word.



	 It so happens that Spanish permits only dental/alveolar consonants

in word-final position. It so happens, I believe, that Quenya has a very

similar rule...



	 The results aren't quite identical; Spanish likes to end words with

"d" (pronounced in most dialects as a voiced dental or interdental

fricative, although some folks do devoice it), while Quenya favors "t".

Still, it's a convenient sample rule in a living language with which we

know Tolkien was somewhat familiar.



	 Someone else will have to speculate on the Proto-Eldarin; I'm not

qualified.



Dorothea



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dorothea Salo       <*>           |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa,

dmrovner@...        |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos

http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~dmrovner |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_





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hello to all!



My name is Allison; i'm a high school student in Texas, and I've recently

become very interested in Tolkien's invented languages, especially Sindarin

and the other elven languages.  I thought I might just write in to say hello

to everyone out there.



I recently finished reading and taking notes on the Sindarin analyzation at

the Ardalambion (thank you so much for all your work, Helge!), and there

found a link to this mailing list (and to TolkLang).  I know I will enjoy

all the discussion posted here, and hope to learn and help others to learn

of the intricacies of Tolkien's languages.  I have many questions; and I'm

certain will only have more as time progresses.



I will start with two questions that I am certain you have heard many times,

but I would appreciate some response regarding them.





I have searched about a little (through the Ardalambion, Etymologies, and

mailing list archives) and have found that there is no certain Sindarin verb

for "to be".  My question is this: Are there any ideas for or hypothetical

words being widely used as of now?  I read of _na-_ being questioned as

such, and of a word _aen-_ (which meant 'may it be'(?)).  Is there any

standard being used?



Another question I have regards the formation of past-tense verbs in

Sindarin.  In the Ardalambion, a method is mentioned that Tolkien began to

develop (as is my understanding) in which primary verbs undergo several

changes (i.e. _ped-_ becomes _ebid_) to form their third person past-tense.

Has it been determined whether this is to be widely used, or should one

continue to use the 'normal' method?





Please bear with me if my questions are not extremely thought-provoking, but

I am very new to the realm of languages and their construction (currently I

only speak English and -very- limited Spanish).  This interests me greatly,

and I hope that many of you will assist me in my search for knowledge in

these matters.  Thank you very much for your time and help!



-Allison, the hopeful linguist

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Allo fellow linguists and Tolkien lovers.  I'm afraid to say I

haven't picked up much of any of his languages, despite my many

efforts to do so.  So, perhaps you folk can help me get started.  To

think!  I don't even know greetings, and pronounciations are rough in

coming!



But, just for greeting and introduction purposes, I'm a linguistics

and computer science major at the University of Pittsburgh, and a

proud brother of the honorary band service fraternity Kappa Kappa

Psi.  Hee.  Other'n that, I can be reached here, under Mettare (which

I've seen translated as either last light or day's end, but I like

it, though it hardly suits as a true elvish name, if any of you would

be so kind as to aid me in that area) or Bubble_Dragon@...

I'm afraid of fire, you see.



In any case, I'm glad to have found you.



~Bubbles

> Allo fellow linguists and Tolkien lovers.  I'm

> afraid to say I

> haven't picked up much of any of his languages,

> despite my many

> efforts to do so.  So, perhaps you folk can help me

> get started.  To

> think!  I don't even know greetings, and

> pronounciations are rough in

> coming!



Aiya Mettare!

What kind of efforts have you made so far? its strange

that you don't know at least the greeting Elen sila

lumenn' omentielvo, aiya or mae govannen :)



for greetings and other useful stuff you can visit



http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_parl.html



concerning pronounciation, there are some ways you can

learn. First of all study the LOTR Appendix E which

deals with pronoucniation. There are various sites

that can help you though. Helge Fauskanger is

composing a Quenya course and the first lesson

contains pronounciation rules. You can find it in



http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qcourse.htm



And i am aware of one only site devoted to Quenya

pronoucniation:

http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/pronguide.html



For a samples of sindarin, Ryszard Derdzinsky has

translated the Lord's Prayer into Sindarin and

recorded his voice reading it in his Gwaith i

Phethdain page



www.elvish.org/gwaith



in that site also you can download samples of some

Sindarin phrases that are going to be heard in the

movie!!! good luck and dont hesitate to ask about

anything you need help...



Namarie, tenn' enomentielma



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Aiya there :)



I'm a french guy,and I'd like a lot to learn elvish's language.

As Bulbbes,if somebody can help me to get started,I will be happy :)

I think You will say that I need to learn t speak english well before lol.



Nai elenon aurë sìla menessë

----- Original Message -----

From: <mettare@...>

To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:27 AM

Subject: [elfling] Greetings





> Allo fellow linguists and Tolkien lovers.  I'm afraid to say I

> haven't picked up much of any of his languages, despite my many

> efforts to do so.  So, perhaps you folk can help me get started.  To

> think!  I don't even know greetings, and pronounciations are rough in

> coming!

>

> But, just for greeting and introduction purposes, I'm a linguistics

> and computer science major at the University of Pittsburgh, and a

> proud brother of the honorary band service fraternity Kappa Kappa

> Psi.  Hee.  Other'n that, I can be reached here, under Mettare (which

> I've seen translated as either last light or day's end, but I like

> it, though it hardly suits as a true elvish name, if any of you would

> be so kind as to aid me in that area) or Bubble_Dragon@...

> I'm afraid of fire, you see.

>

> In any case, I'm glad to have found you.

>

> ~Bubbles

>

>

> --

> Manager address: elfling-owner@yahoogroups.com

> Unsub address: elfling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> Elfling welcome: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfling.html

> Elfling FAQ: http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/elfaq.html

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

Aiya, Mellon! (Hail, friend.) The "aiya" is Quenya and the "mellon" is

Sindarin. What's the quinya form of that, please?)



	 Good to have you here! Hantale ("thank you" in Quenya) for introducing

yourself. I hope you learn a lot here!



Namaarie! Farewell!



Sara (or Aranel in quenya)

Sara Hillis deithant:

>       Aiya, Mellon! (Hail, friend.) The "aiya" is Quenya and the "mellon"

>is

>Sindarin. What's the quinya form of that, please?)



From The Etymologies: maalo, sermo or nildo.



Cuio mae, Danny.



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On Freitag, August 24, 2001, at 07:26  Uhr, D. Daniel Andriës wrote:



>

>

>

> Sara Hillis deithant:

>>       Aiya, Mellon! (Hail, friend.) The "aiya" is Quenya and the

>> "mellon"

>> is

>> Sindarin. What's the quinya form of that, please?)

>

> From The Etymologies: maalo, sermo or nildo.

>

Or indeed _meldo_



-David

Gratzi, thats was really helpful....excuse the one liner

>There are some common greatings on this list.

>I have seen:

>

>Namaarie

>  Quenya. "Farewell"

>Cuio mae

>  Sindarin. "Live well"

>Hantale

>  Quenya. "Thanksgiving"

>Suilad

>  Sindarin. "Greeting"

>Meneg Suilaid

>  Sindarin. "Thousand Greetings"

>

>Perhaps there are more things I am not aware of.

>



I wonder why some would use hantale as a greeting, when it should be classified

as an abstract noun: "thanksgiving". If you want to say "thank you" perhaps one

should use the vinyakarme hantanyel "(I) thank you". In addition, I used the

greeting "mai omentaina" or "mai yomentaina" (well met) and "manen

lelyat/lelyal" (how goes it, how are you?) I don't know if I was the first to

use the latter phrase, but I made it up myself, at least independently of

someone else who may have used it besides me.



__________________________________

www.edsamail.com

On Donnerstag, Oktober 18, 2001, at 07:50  Uhr, Vicente S Velasco wrote:

>>

>> <snipp>

>>

>> Hantale

>>  Quenya. "Thanksgiving"

>>

>

> I wonder why some would use hantale as a greeting, when it should be

> classified as an abstract noun: "thanksgiving". If you want to say

> "thank you" perhaps one should use the vinyakarme hantanyel "(I) thank

> you". In addition, I used the greeting "mai omentaina" or "mai

> yomentaina" (well met) and "manen lelyat/lelyal" (how goes it, how are

> you?) I don't know if I was the first to use the latter phrase, but I

> made it up myself, at least independently of someone else who may have

> used it besides me.

_hantale_ does not, as far as I  know, mean "Thanksgiving" but just

"thanking". _Eru hantale_ means "thanking God". The time and motivation

of this Numenorian festival corresponds to modern day Christian

"Thanksgiving". This is, however, not its literal translation. Thte

underlying verb surely is _hanta_. As for _hantanyel_, I don't know.

"You" shd be dative here, I guess, so _elyen_ ? Also, _lelyat_ is very

idiomatic. Many languages don't use "to go" in that fashion, so I'd be

very cautious there. Just _hantale_ or perhaps even the plural _hantali_

seems okay. Or maybe simply _hantan_ "I thank".

-David

Im new in your list. My name is Elfin (real name)



Im thankful, to be in this list. Im a pasionated fan of all Tolkiens work.

And Im quite interested in studing Q and S. But I just started to dedicate

my time to it. Im not an expert in lenguajes (but I hope my knowledge on

Spanish, inglish and german, helps me a bit ;9 ). So Im greatly interested

to read of your opinions, so I problably keep silence and read all that

comes from this list. And hope Im not disturbing you.



seeing you later



Elfie



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Hi,



I just joined the elfling list. I'm 53 y.o., male, and live in Amsterdam,

the Netherlands. I studied 3 years semitic linguistics (hebrew and aramaic)

at the University of Amsterdam, but never graduated. My interest here is

mainly Quenya and Sindarin, and I'm a newbie in both :)  I'm presently

following Helge Fauskanger's Quenya course.



Cheers,

Alex



===

Alex Grigny de Castro

mailto:a.grigny@...

http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny

XelaG

mailto:xelag@...

http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As a new member of the Elfling list, I would like to greet you all...

Allow me to introduce myself : I am 19, I live in France, and (of course), I

love JRRT and his languages, especially Quenya and Adûnaic. I look forward to

learning some of your vast knowledge of those tongues (and many others...)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello!  Could someone kindly list some basic Elvish greetings along

with pronounciation help?  I believe that "elen síla lúmenn'

omentielvo" is one, but I have NO idea how to pronounce it.



Doug

  teithant bbritishdude



> Hello! Could someone kindly list some basic Elvish greetings along

with pronounciation help? I believe that "elen síla lúmenn'

omentielvo" is one, but I have NO idea how to pronounce it.



* http://gildor.freepage.gr/faq.html :DDD







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 3/9/02 09:04 PM , bbritishdude wrote:

>Hello!  Could someone kindly list some basic Elvish greetings along

>with pronounciation help?  I believe that "elen síla lúmenn'

>omentielvo" is one, but I have NO idea how to pronounce it.



"ELL-en SEE-la LOO-men oh-men-tee-EL-vo".



Another common phrase that may be either a greeting or a farewell (I'm not

sure which, or maybe it can be both) is "Anar caluva tielyanna", meaning

"The Sun shines on your path." It's pronounced "AN-ar KAL-oo-va

tee-ell-YAN-na."



But the simplest Quenya greeting is just "Aiya", pronounced "EYE-ah".



Note that these are all Quenya; the only Sindarin greeting I can quickly

think of is "Mae govannen," which means "Well met." But I have no idea how

to pronounce it.



                                                  --Kai MacTane

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Doom. Gloom. Angst. Despair. Tragedy."

                                                  --A. Random Goth

  teithant Kai MacTane



> "ELL-en SEE-la LOO-men oh-men-tee-EL-vo".



no, its luumEnna



> But the simplest Quenya greeting is just "Aiya", pronounced "EYE-ah".



* EYE-yah



> Note that these are all Quenya; the only Sindarin greeting I can quickly

think of is "Mae govannen," which means "Well met." But I have no idea how

to pronounce it.



* kai?? come on now!! i dont believe you!



MAH-eh goh-VAH-nen







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 3/10/02 01:45 PM , =?iso-8859-7?q?Gildor=20Inglorion?= wrote:



>  teithant Kai MacTane

> > "ELL-en SEE-la LOO-men oh-men-tee-EL-vo".

>

>no, its luumEnna



Whoops, right; I wasn't really thinking about the elided last syllable.



> > But the simplest Quenya greeting is just "Aiya", pronounced "EYE-ah".

>

>* EYE-yah



I think that's more of an orthographical preference thing. Honestly, I

can't think of how I'd pronounce "EYE-ah" any differently from "EYE-yah",

except maybe a teeny bit more Y.



> > Note that these are all Quenya; the only Sindarin greeting I can quickly

>think of is "Mae govannen," which means "Well met." But I have no idea how

>to pronounce it.

>

>* kai?? come on now!! i dont believe you!

>

>MAH-eh goh-VAH-nen



Okay, I had a general "idea", but I wasn't sure if my idea matched

Tolkien's idea. Does that make more sense?



I honestly haven't studied Sindarin yet at all. (Well, I hadn't when I

wrote that earlier post. In order to make the sound files I just posted a

message about, I quickly skimmed through the "Phonology" section of the

Sindarin page on Ardalambion.) But before this, I would have thought _Mae_

was "MAY", or maybe "MY".



Thanks for filling me in, though.



                                                  --Kai MacTane

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Wind in wings,/Two angels falling

   To die like this/With a last kiss..."

                                                  --Siouxsie and the

                                                    Banshees,

                                                   "Face to Face"

Gildor Inglorion wrote:



> > "ELL-en SEE-la LOO-men oh-men-tee-EL-vo".

>

> no, its luumEnna



    Yes, and the elided form is _luumEnn'_.



> > But the simplest Quenya greeting is just "Aiya", pronounced "EYE-ah".

>

> * EYE-yah



    I doubt there is any phonological contrast between _aia_ and

_aiya_. If my doubt is correct, "EYE-ah" and "EYE-yah" would

both be possible free variants.



> > Note that these are all Quenya; the only Sindarin greeting I can quickly

> think of is "Mae govannen," which means "Well met." But I have no idea how

> to pronounce it.

>

> * kai?? come on now!! i dont believe you!

>

> MAH-eh goh-VAH-nen



    No, _mae_ is a monosyllable, AE being a diphthong in Sindarin.



     Meneg suilaid,



         Beregond

  teithant "Beregond. Anders Stenström"



> No, _mae_ is a monosyllable, AE being a diphthong in Sindarin.



* and how could i render it?:)







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Teithant Beregond. Anders Stenström:

>Gildor Inglorion wrote:

> >teithant kai mctane:

> >"Mae govannen," which means "Well met." But I have no idea how

> > to pronounce it.

> >

> > * kai?? come on now!! i dont believe you!

> >

> > MAH-eh goh-VAH-nen

>

>    No, _mae_ is a monosyllable, AE being a diphthong in Sindarin.



Also, double consonants are pronounced double in Sindarin, so rather "mae

goh-VAHN-nen."



Cuio mae,Danny.



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Dangweth anim o Gildor Inglorion:



>  teithant "Beregond. Anders Stenström"

>

> > No, _mae_ is a monosyllable, AE being a diphthong in Sindarin.

>

> * and how could i render it?:)



    Well, I find 'English sounds-like spelling' difficult to fathom, so

I am afraid I don't know.



     Suilaid,



         Beregond

Gildor Inglorion wrote:

>

>  teithant Kai MacTane



> > Note that these are all Quenya; the only Sindarin greeting I can quickly

>think of is "Mae govannen," which means "Well met." But I have no idea how

>to pronounce it.

>

>* kai?? come on now!! i dont believe you!

>

>MAH-eh goh-VAH-nen

>

I'm fairly certain that _mae_ is monosyllabic. Now, English doesn't have a

/ae/ diphthong, but the closest rendering probably is:



MY goh-VAN-nen (note double nn like in "penknife")



But the serious student will of course want to learn to produce a correct

Sindarin "ae". If you know SAMPA, it's probably [AE], otherwise, well, it's

a diphthong beginning as "a" in "father" and ending (probably) as "e" in

"bed".



                                                    Andreas



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Beregond wrote:

>

>Dangweth anim o Gildor Inglorion:

>

> >  teithant "Beregond. Anders Stenström"

> >

> > > No, _mae_ is a monosyllable, AE being a diphthong in Sindarin.

> >

> > * and how could i render it?:)

>

>    Well, I find 'English sounds-like spelling' difficult to fathom, so

>I am afraid I don't know.



Me too, but rendering "ae" is quite hopeless in any case. See my other mail

for a less-than-ideal solution and some discussion.



                                          Andreas



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Aiya!



Merin alassea, senda Hrístonostare ilquenen, i cenda

mentatéma sina! Limbe annar, tyávima apsa, sére

órelyasse!



Namárie,



Thomas Ferencz



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--- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ferencz <percival64@y...>

wrote:

> Aiya!

>

> Merin alassea, senda Hrístonostare ilquenen, i cenda

> mentatéma sina! Limbe annar, tyávima apsa, sére

> órelyasse!

>

> Namárie,

>

> Thomas Ferencz



Translation:



"Hail!



I wish a happy, peaceful Christmas to all who read

this mailing list!  Many gifts, tasty food, peace

inside your heart!



Farewell,



Thomas Ferencz"



Same from me! A! manen melin lúme sina...



- Petri Tikka

Greetings,

I'm new on this group and I wanted to introduce myself.

I live in Brazil, 15 yrs old. I have been studying elvish languages

for some time, and thought I might get some help about this or that

problem may I find.

Also, I hope to find many new friends, and fans of the LotR world =]]]



Thanks

kiyoto_ak <kiyoto_ak@...> wrote:

"Greetings,

I'm new on this group and I wanted to introduce myself."



Hi...and welcome.  My name is Nikki.  I'm sure you will get all the help you

need!  These people are great and they are friendly as well. Anything you need

don't be afraid to ask.  Many people will answer with their knowledge and

opinions...the discusion can go on for some time but it will be worth the time. 

You will learn many new things.  I hope you have fun!





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