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Regarding generosity among the Noldor...   Message List  
Reply Message #35531 of 36266 |
Suilad,

I've put this reply under a new topic header, because like a number of the
replies before it, it has nothing to do with the original translation request.
A question was raised to me, and it's my intention here to answer it in what is
hopefully a civil manner. What I've written is from within the context of
story, since that is the manner in which the questions have been asked...

Regarding this quote from Thorsten -

Yes, I remember especially Feanor's disposition to give away the Silmarilli when
needed, and the Teleri handing over the Swan-Ships just for the asking because
the Noldor needed a ride across the sea :-) Are you really referring to these
Elves? Because the Noldor were the Quenya native speakers, and I have parts of
the Silmarillion in mind which would make them appear in a less gentle light.

Yes, I am REALLY referring to these Elves...here's a few examples as to why,
also from The Silmarillion -

"And it came to pass that the masons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the
hills after stone (for they delighted in the building of high
towers),first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless
myriads; and they devised tools for the cutting and shaping of gems, and carved
them in many forms. They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their
labour enriched all Valinor."

"Many jewels the Noldor gave them(The Teleri), opals and diamonds and pale
crystals, which they strewed upon the shores and scattered in the pools;
marvellous were the beaches of Elende in those days."

And two from the time following Feanor's rebellion, the Kinslaying, the burning
of the Swan-ships, etc, etc, which I'm including to show that the Noldor also
gave their lives; you really can't be less selfish; when they said they wanted
to repent from their folly, they meant it...

"In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his
full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies
of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined.
And they assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about
Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies.
Grey-elves and Men. Many of the stoutest of the foes of Morgoth were destroyed
in the first days of that war, bewildered and dispersed and unable to muster
their strength."

"But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners
marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never
departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë...
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle,
and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of
Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not
contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.
But it availed him not."

In short - he lost...

In my opinion, it's not fair to let an obsessed leader's action's serve to
define the mentality of the people as a whole...'

Regarding his refusal to give the Silmarilli to the Valar, there was no logic in
his obsession, and it 'kinda' bit him in the butt...

And as far as the actions of the Teleri to refuse 'handing over' their ships,
the Noldor who followed Feanor didn't ask, but demanded by force an expectation
of generosity that couldn't be met, and then resorted to greater force when the
demand was refused.

And since the Silmarillion clearly states that Fingolin's people ceased fighting
the Teleri as soon as they learned that they didn't blindly attack the Noldor,
and Finarfin's people abandoned the trek and turned back to plead for pardon
from the Valar, it's clear that Feanor's charisma only went so far...

Anyone wishing to is certainly welcome to reply, but I feel that I have said all
that I really need to say here. I can pull quotes from Tolkien's writings with
the best of 'em, but just because I can, doesn't mean I care to for any great
period of time for purposes such as these.

Annaka











Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:31 am

crowbabe74
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Message #35531 of 36266 |
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Suilad, I've put this reply under a new topic header, because like a number of the replies before it, it has nothing to do with the original translation...
crowbabe74 Offline Send Email Jul 24, 2009
3:20 am

I chose to reply to this, because it serves to illustrates an interesting point in the study of languages, i.e. the connection between mindset of a people and...
Thorsten Renk
trenk@... Send Email
Jul 30, 2009
5:06 pm

... Funny you should mention horses. I was just thinking. In the Silmarillion it says Maedhros gave Finglofin's people a bunch of horses 'cause he felt bad...
CLH harding
clh8518 Offline Send Email
Aug 3, 2009
2:37 pm

To Thorsten - You never directly asked me a single thing about anything lingistic under this subject... you asked me if "I was referring to these same Elves?" ...
crowbabe74 Offline Send Email Aug 5, 2009
2:38 am

... I was sort of assuming that since we are on a linguistic mailing list, I wouldn't have to point it out every time. Of course points I make here relate to...
Thorsten Renk
trenk@... Send Email
Aug 6, 2009
10:12 pm

Suilad, Forgive me if this is beating a dead horse, however, I was in the process of making a reply to this thread waaay back when - when the responsibilities...
Anaconda
crowbabe74 Offline Send Email
Sep 29, 2009
6:44 pm

Dear Annaka, ... Well, no - because there still seem to be many misconceptions around, which can still be and should be cleared up. I hope you're not just...
Thorsten Renk
trenk@... Send Email
Oct 1, 2009
9:13 pm

...   I guess this is what I get for not reading all the posts leading up to this before commenting. I thaught that we were still debating whether or not an...
CLH harding
clh8518 Offline Send Email
Aug 15, 2009
4:35 am
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