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Re:Akallabęth - Atalantë   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #34244 of 35619 |
Re:Akallabęth - Atalantë

First, Helge, many thanks!

Now, I understand better why it is said that you should keep your translations
short if you
expect somebody to comment them.

First, one question: I wonder whether it is appropriate to use the verb _ná_ to
express a
passive. Any passive participle seems already to be composed of [verb] + na, so
using (for
instance) _ná nahamna_ to mean `is summoned' might be redundant.

Concerning your comments, I agree with most of them. Just a few answers about
some:

_quenta_: it's because the name _quenta_ exists that I believe that the passive
of _quet-_
should be similar (at least in an archaic speech, which is what I am trying to
reproduce). By
the way, I should also use plural accusative in –ai for many nouns and plural in
-ai for
many adjectives as well, thanks for noticing that.

_i_ instead of _sa_: it seems you're right, but it seems strange, still.

_mir Ardanna_: _mir Arda_ is probably better, right

_túlë_: I'll go with the attested one, I believe.

_tercáno_: `herald' is very appropriate, I think. Very good suggestion

`worship': in the meantime, I've changed my mind on that one. I believe I'll use
_laitaneltë_, since _Erulaitalë_ is known as one of the Númenórean festivals
dedicated to
the One.

`and yet feared it': I'll go with your suggestion, it is very neat.

`cunning': you're already the second one to tell me that I should go with the
stem _curu_.
I've thought about _*curwin(a)_, which would look like an old participle, much
like
`cunning'. Besides, it makes me think about "Corwin", and that seems very
appropriate for
me (but of course _curwa_ would be very good, too).

`there were': I would have taken it for face value: `there, some people were,
who…' But
your solution avoids the potential problem, so that's probably better.

_ranya_: it is my understanding that the Atani did not know where they were
going (except
that they did not want to stay), so I find _ranya_ quite appropriate.

_voro_: I really think that what is meant here is `continually': they never
tarried on the way.
But they did not do that `for ever'. _Oio_ seems to qualify something that is
really eternal
(at least within Arda), like Oiolosseo, so it does not seem appropriate.

_Númendë_: well, I use the way the ending -ssë is combined with a noun in –n in
the
Ataremma: _cemen_ + ssë -> _cemendë_. It seems a reasonable idea.

`to darken': I've checked the relevant examples. It seems you're right.

_andavi_: I really need to be more careful. Your suggestion is right (but I'll
use _andai_ for
reasons explained above).

_auressen_: I'll follow your suggestion and what is written in the Plotz letter.

_Hecelmar_: both seem possible. I (personally) prefer the shorter one.

_i Edain_: I've changed all those incorrect forms everywhere after reading what
Tolkien
said about this.

_i Ţindalambë_: that would precisely translate back as `the Sindarin tongue'. It
seems to
me that the paraphrase would be the other way around.

`friends and allies': partitive plural indeed.

_onuta_: I like this form, that's even better than my idea. I use o- because
here we have
two broad groups that ally one with the other: `Elves' and `Men'. If I were
speaking about
`the Allies' in WWII, I would indeed use _i Yonutë_ `those (more than two) bound
by a
common pact' (well, I would probably not use Quenya for that purpose, but that's
the
idea). If we suppose `alliance' to be _onutië_, the Alliance of Maedros would
also be _i
Maitimó Yonutië_, too.

_Moringottonna_: very reasonable, again.


By the way, I'd like to apologize for not having realized that italic would not
be
distinguishable after my message was posted. In my first post, it must have been
difficult
to distinguish Elvish from English sometimes. I've been careful this time.

Thanks again,

Damien





Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:11 pm

elendil_voronda
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Forward
Message #34244 of 35619 |
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Some comments on this translation... ... Moringottova Huineo, ar larcavë lantaneltë nu ţanyeryá; ... World in the time of the Shadow of Morgoth [i...
Helge K. Fauskanger
helge.fauskanger@...
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Jul 24, 2007
3:19 pm

First, Helge, many thanks! Now, I understand better why it is said that you should keep your translations short if you expect somebody to comment them. First,...
elendil_voronda
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Jul 25, 2007
12:07 am

So, updated translation. If you have any comment, please let me know: _Quenta lo Eldai i Atani túler mir Ardá i lúmessë i Moringottova Huineo, ar larcavë ...
elendil_voronda
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Jul 26, 2007
8:34 pm

... There is an attested word translated as "at last" in FS, _yallume_. Finally, to express "become" I usually use the verb _ahya-_ "change" with an allative -...
TF
percival64
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Jul 30, 2007
2:04 pm

Hi Thomas, ... I had missed that one! Far better than my neologism. ... But there is no known verb _morita_ that would mean "to exhale darkness" is there? ...
elendil_voronda
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Jul 31, 2007
2:10 pm

Apologies, some of my comments got lost from my previous email to this thread, so here I am reposting them ... Since we have _envinyanta_ attested ...
TF
percival64
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Jul 30, 2007
2:26 pm

Second installment of the Akallabęth translation: As I said in my previous messages, I will assume that this text is written in the archaic Book Quenya. I...
elendil_voronda
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Aug 3, 2007
6:18 am

Hi, I do not really subscribe to the idea that the past participle would be simply formed by a suffixed copula (but it's just a personal opinion since I am not...
TF
percival64
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Aug 3, 2007
11:25 am

I am happy to present an updated version of my article "The Quenya Pronominal System - a summary" http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/quenya_pronouns.html on...
Thorsten Renk
trenk@...
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Aug 3, 2007
1:55 pm

Thanks for the update, Thorsten. The early Qenya examples make it all the more interesting. I too was just updating my own personal grammar theory (kudos to...
S P
elenyona
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Aug 3, 2007
4:45 pm

Thorsten Suliad! Excellent. I was actually using your original article and writing in the updates. Very helpful. Thanks, Andy Andrew Higgins ...
Andrew Higgins
asthiggins
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Aug 6, 2007
3:25 am

... (except for some very early Qenya stuff). You might say: _...apa hlarie_ "after hearing (a rumour that...)" Or you could go for a tense-less gerund in...
meneldilv
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Aug 8, 2007
2:58 pm

... I agree with this, languages can operate quite well with three tenses only... ... Every translation is a periphrasis, so there is no problem in that:) Of...
TF
percival64
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Aug 8, 2007
3:31 pm

... No sentence _requires_ pluperfect, as any sentence is translatable into Czech, and Czech has no pluperfect (just simple present, past and future). And we...
LukᚠNovák
lukas.novak@...
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Aug 8, 2007
3:43 pm

Also remember _en_ (2) "particle that may be inserted before a past tense form to indicate that it refers to a remote past (VT45:12)." [source: quen-eng.rtf at...
S P
elenyona
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Aug 8, 2007
4:36 pm

... I agree, of course. That's why I wrote "sentence that _would_ [probably] require it", if Quenya had it. In fact, (speaking of native languages) Croatian...
meneldilv
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Aug 9, 2007
5:34 am

... I was just kidding :-) It is similar in Czech: we don't oficially have the pluperfect, but I nevertheless use it ocasionally :-) Lukas...
Lukáš Novák
lukas.novak@...
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Aug 9, 2007
10:11 am
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