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Thank you   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #27523 of 35617 |
Re: Thank you

It is rather curious, though hardly surprising on Elfling today, to read such
a blank statement:

>> P.S. How would you say Thank you in Sindarin?
> Hannon le is used without any problem (...)

Without any problem, really?

_*Hannon_ is the end-product of a long chain of suppositions. It starts with
an interpretation of the Númenorean festival _Eruhantalë_ (UT:166) as
"Thanksgiving to Eru", very probable when you read the sentence in which it is
included :

... Thrice only in each year the King spoke, offering prayer for the coming
year at the _Erukyermë_ in the first days of spring, praise of Eru Ilúvatar at
the _Erulaitalë_ in midsummer, and thanksgiving to him at the _Eruhantalë_ at
the end of autumn. ...

Then you extract from _hantale_ "thanksgiving" a verb _#hanta_ "to give
thanks" . Quite assured too since the _laitale_, visibly "praise", is obviously
connected to the verb _laita_ "to praise" attested in the Cormallen Praise. (How
awfully redundant.)

Patrick Wynne, Arden Smith and Carl Hostetter in VT43:13 propounded that it
is connected to a root HAN "add to, increase, enhance, honour (espec. by
gift)". Semantically it fits quite well. Yes it seems to be their hypothesis, if
I
understand correctly the use of quotation signs (I am not entirely sure to) ;
plausible enough, but not Tolkien's word.

Now... can it be phonologically "adapted" in Sindarin as a verb _*hanna-_ ?
If the root HAN goes back to Common Eldarin and _#hanta_ is indeed derived from
it, probably not : CE h usually disappears without trace in S (cf. WJ:365).
In a late external phase it may have been thought to develop to g (VT41:11, 15
"Note on Óre"). Anyway CE h does not seem to survive unchanged in S.
If the etymology propounded in VT43 is correct, a Sindarin cognate would be
_*anna-_, which would clash with the verb "to give". Sindarin can certainly
bear some degree of homonymy, in fact there are other homonyms (for instance in
the Etym _angol_ both means "stench" and "deep lore, magic" ! LR:377, 378), and
some languages of this world (my native French for instance) have a fair
number of them, without seemingly bothering their speakers too much. Yet that
homonymic clash is really awkward, for "give" and "thank" can be used in similar
contexts and then it is quite desirable to clearly separate the meanings; in
such situations one of the two words is very likely to be replaced. We know by
Gilraen's linnod that _anna-_ "give" existed in Sindarin, so...

To make thinks worse, the place of _le_ is dubious to say the least. In its
three attestations it is placed *before* the verb :
- _le linnathon_ in the Hymn to Elbereth
- _le nallon_ in Sam's inspired cry in Cirith Ungol
- _le linnon_ in Lúthien's song (LB:354).

So _hannon le_ is a rather spurious neo-sindarin construction which is
becoming hard fact by mere repetition. If this is without any problem, then
there
are few problems left in the field of Elvish linguistics.

Bertrand Bellet


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:27 pm

tchitrec
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Message #27523 of 35617 |
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Hello!!! Thanks to everybody for their help with my "dagnir duath im~delchoth dhaer" phrase. I have finally figured it out...I think... Orlando...
blancaorlando
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Dec 27, 2001
5:45 am

Thank you to the few who actually responded. I started to think maybe I wasn't showing up or my question wasn't good enough for considration or something (I...
earendel2003
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Oct 18, 2003
2:46 am

Thanks to all the members who have helped me on my name quest. Especially to Atwe, Elhath, Aidan and Edhil. I have asked some of them specifically on the...
jendelphis
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Nov 6, 2003
5:50 am

... Hannon le is used without any problem, but I was wandering how we would answer to that, i mean, there is no connection between "you're welcome" "de nada"...
Lamandil
xlamandilx
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Nov 15, 2003
4:37 am

... would ... welcome" My friends and I use "Na unad" (It's nothing) for informal and "Na i 'lass nin" (It is my joy)for formal. The idea I was shooting for ...
sheltonpotter
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Nov 15, 2003
7:40 pm

we could use an expression like "de nada" since, I think, the idea is clear and in other languages there are constructions similar to that or, i'm not really...
Celene Estelle
watergirlout...
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Nov 15, 2003
7:42 pm

It is rather curious, though hardly surprising on Elfling today, to read such ... Without any problem, really? _*Hannon_ is the end-product of a long chain of...
Tchitrec@...
tchitrec
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Nov 16, 2003
10:27 pm

I am honoured by your interest in my attempt to translate Elrond's speech. Baudh idrin anna ‘lass enni. Hannon. Next up is a reworking of the Waste Land...
Zainab Thorp
adanel2003
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Feb 15, 2004
4:40 am

Oh. I wish I knew Sindarin! The Waste Land!!! What an ambitious thing to try to translate even a small part of! Wow! Sara...
Sara Hillis
viviane_the_...
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Feb 15, 2004
8:59 pm

Hi, here are some thoughts. ... Maybe I would change word order here : _A im T. balan-vrúniel pân _ ... What do _coren_ and _besseg_ mean ? Didin't quite get...
320082509922-0001@...
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Feb 25, 2004
11:36 am
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