We really need to work on solutions how to either make the ballots shorter, and manage ballot design to make hand counts more efficient. When looking at the Nov. election in Broward we had 4 double sided ballot pages. Once we simplify our ballots there is no excuse not to manually count the ballots. Ballot simplification is a very important issue to solve either legislatively or from a design perspective. In addition, with our counties trying to cut costs in the budget, simplified elections are certainly welcome.
It really is incredible that some election IT will never look at a ballot at all unless they can't help it during the handling process. A couple of years ago, seems like a lifetime, there was a tiny Broward Election and only 3 voters returned their ab ballots. I asked the IT guy if he had checked to see that indeed the machine spitted out the correct result by handcounting the ballots. He said no, but because he could not help but seeing the ballots as they had only one race he knew the result was correct. The Moderator.
--- In electionreform@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Brudy <csbrudy@...> wrote:

Dear Gomarlinsgo,
Is it not possible that the entire operation is so complex, is so labor
intensive and requires so much additional effort in order to prepare the
machines that the whole thing could be used to cover up five minutes of
hacking?
It would be cheaper, at this point, to train one or two temporary workers
per precinct in the art of conducting a hand count. People will volunteer
to be on the counting teams, as election day wears on. If not, they can be
drafted just as they are for jury duty, or simply hired separately for the
count only.
Teams of four count each five hundred ballots, and they all pitch in at the
end to make sure the numbers are transcribed onto a final summary sheet
correctly.
It is cheaper than maintaining, servicing and finally loading the software
into each machine. Plus, all materials for running the precinct on
election day can be shipped in the ballot box itself.
Take a few minutes to see how it is done in New Hampshire by checking out
Nancy Tobi's collection of hand count videos. You'll especially like
Wilton, NH.
http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/2648
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Ellen H. Brodsky <ehbrod@...> wrote:

I for one am not accusing you of vote rigging nor am I questioning the way
you perform your job. I don't even know who you really are but you have to
agree since you are being paid by the taxpayers your primary duty is first
to the voters and not your boss, the state or the vendor.
What I am hearing is Broward is too large and therefore preparing elections
with the current technology is too complex for any real citizen
transparency. Would you agree that is a fair statement?
The Moderator.
--- In electionreform@yahoogroups.com <electionreform%40yahoogroups.com>,
"gomarlinsgo" <gomarlinsgo@> wrote:

I would have to ask my friends in Broward those specific questions. Are

you not able to get the L&A results when you are there to observe? Maybe you
have to request public records? Since Broward is so large, have you ever
considered the logistics they must go thru to prepare for shipping all of
their machines? Opening for EV must really be fun for them, I'll bet the
zero tape for 800 precincts is a mile long and takes at least 30 minutes to
generate. If they do proper testing and calibrating, this is a lengthy
process for each unit. Of course they have to do all this some time before
EV starts, not sure about 20 days but at least a couple weeks. Don't forget
they also have to burn thousands of jump drives, flash cards, sound files,
proof everything. As for waiting in line, the turnout last November was
historic. Was waiting in line only in Broward or was it countrywide? I saw
on the news it happened everywhere. You sure do love to pick on those
people. I guess all the judges and commissioners down there are cheating
too, don't they have to sign off on the L&A and final certifications? The
elections office in Tally must be corrupt too, allowing these machines that
are rigged to be certified. You know what, I tire of your allegations and
the rest of your group's beliefs that everyone is corrupt and cheating. Some
people somewhere may be but not the people I know. We work hard for no
raises besides putting up with all this crap. I know in my heart we count
the votes correctly.

--- In electionreform@yahoogroups.com <electionreform%40yahoogroups.com>,

"Ellen H. Brodsky" <ehbrod@> wrote:

There is too much anger on both sides of this issue.
Because the software is proprietary and the vote counting process is an

internal one, not publicly observable there will always be suspicion and
distrust when insiders no matter how non-partisan, professional and honest
they believe they are, are the ones spitting out the results.

No doubt the same knee jerk defense by election officials has always

been when the public was critical of the accuracy of the vote count was that
the public was insulting them and questioning their integrity. This was the
same defense we heard regarding the accuracy of the touchscreens,
undervotes, l&a prediction of accurate elections, lost ballots, unimaginable
undervotes, latest report of unexplained overvotes on the ds200s, etc. Let's
be honest regarding L&A testing in Broward. If the results were so accurate
and the testing so comprehensive why is it so difficult for election
observers to get the test plan and the results at the time the test is done?
Why are the machines tested at the l&a not the machines used in the actual
precincts? And why are the DS200 Scanners opened for voting at early voting
sites up to 20 days before the start of voting? What kind of testing was
performed that had the effect of making voters wait up to 6 hrs.in line at

ev?
In the name of transparency I would appreciate you share with our group

what software upgrades and beta testing is Broward County IT performing at
the current time on the order of Donald Palmer from the DOE?

I would say a Humboldt style transpency project where our votes are

immediately scanned and the results compared with the county's report would
be a good solution for large counties with a large number of races on the
ballot.

In a pilot project in NY state the ES&S DS200s were supposed to be

used but backed out initially when 100% of the ballots would be handcounted.
This says a great deal about the vendor not standing behind their product.

You could be the best programmer in the world, but you are not

programming the DS200s, you are simply modifying the program with each new
election to make it election specific.

Peace.
The Moderator.

-- Christopher S. Brudy
"'Any suggestion of sophistry in argument, regardless of cause, is a deal
breaker' - Ancient Socrates Quote"

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