Leaf,

It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know about the
variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting on this
message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly different
opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.

I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the subject
kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about past
lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.

Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially planned
to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many former
Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed, so I
assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.

Jonathan


--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if we were
to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would have to
accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving to
validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters, something
is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference between a
real experience and imagination.
>
> Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a
fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know
that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
>
> So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters. I'm not
saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists to apply
at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well meaning,
when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable. That's
the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
>
> I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my
transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those
writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or
Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that
makes me question the reliability of the statements.
>
> This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were scammed, so it
is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more refined degree
of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do this, we would not
have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
>
> I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be said,
considering the nature of this forum.
>
> Speaking for myself only,
>
> Leaf
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Thomas,
> >
> > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> >
> > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> >
> >
> > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but I
believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> >
> > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan?"
> > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special, very
long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
> >
> >
> > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I did
have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> >
> > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The project
got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there including a
simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last file that I
uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life regression. The PDF I
have is much better then the format of the post there, but I am still looking
for a good PDF creator.
> >
> > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join, and
you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I
have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the
way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve
your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> >
> > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> >
> > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I had
to think up something.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jonathan,
> > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read the
books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > >
> > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression sessions.
Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of
your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan.
> > >
> > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to go
through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life agreements
I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my incarnation
plan is for my present incarnation.
> > >
> > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past
lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first
incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much earlier
than that.
> > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be appreciated
> > >
> > > Thomas.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > >
> > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas Lee,
> > >
> > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them on
this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I
believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > >
> > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a
member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an
ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > >
> > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck
masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take
on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the
time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in
the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> > >
> > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> > >
> > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past
life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > >
> > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's
books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books
were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and
adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention
that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a
member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on
the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a
Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to
talk about them openly.
> > >
> > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > >
> > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > >
> > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary for
complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's lifetime
> > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve
all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.   Each of us
has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > >
> > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > >
> > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between Life,
or Future Life Progression?
> > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi zoey,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I decided
to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a
sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely sixteen, after finding
an eck book at age 14.
> > > >
> > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and
college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > >
> > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was
rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and
did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends
would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were
bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of
going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > >
> > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > >
> > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > >
> > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > >
> > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings
about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls
back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced
youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It
was exploitation.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > >
> > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they feel
that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come from
people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those
years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken
up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you
would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were
an eckist?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Jonathan,

For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is that
anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god realization, but
mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And there is considerable
evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is nothing new and is rampant
in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.

Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various abilities
such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.

I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the delusion
that they are Lords of the Universe.

The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at a small
gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes about
his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room, I was
sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the placebo
effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all due to
intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered states of
consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own powerful
beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru, which
really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are following and
worshiping.

I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left eckankar
and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and had a
guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul travel
workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people traveled
long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought he might
become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all. And yet, he
was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a history of a
taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He wasn't the real
thing.

And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew of his
character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a Master
in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.

By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who broke
off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more clever
approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims of its
history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather than
fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.

People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous charlatans,
sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast majority of
cases.

In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac self
appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers, are
common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim with
well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe that
THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.

The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced, healthy
living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your universe or
environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance on what
really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real value are
lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of spiritual
exploration.

In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any
criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.

If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone says,
just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all from
the eckankar experience.

Speaking for me only,

Leaf

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Leaf,
>
> It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know about
the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting on
this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly
different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
>
> I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the subject
kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about past
lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
>
> Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially
planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many
former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed,
so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if we
were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would have
to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving to
validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters, something
is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference between a
real experience and imagination.
> >
> > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a
fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know
that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> >
> > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters. I'm
not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists to
apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well
meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable.
That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> >
> > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my
transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those
writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or
Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that
makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> >
> > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were scammed, so
it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more refined
degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do this, we
would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> >
> > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be said,
considering the nature of this forum.
> >
> > Speaking for myself only,
> >
> > Leaf
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thomas,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > >
> > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > >
> > >
> > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but I
believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> > >
> > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special,
very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I did
have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > >
> > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The project
got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there including a
simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last file that I
uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life regression. The PDF I
have is much better then the format of the post there, but I am still looking
for a good PDF creator.
> > >
> > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join,
and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I
have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the
way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve
your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > >
> > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > >
> > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I had
to think up something.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan,
> > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read the
books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > >
> > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression
sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are
also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > >
> > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to go
through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life agreements
I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my incarnation
plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > >
> > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past
lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first
incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much earlier
than that.
> > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be appreciated
> > > >
> > > > Thomas.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > >
> > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them
on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I
believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > > >
> > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a
member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an
ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > >
> > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck
masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take
on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the
time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in
the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> > > >
> > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> > > >
> > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past
life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > >
> > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's
books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books
were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and
adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention
that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a
member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on
the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a
Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to
talk about them openly.
> > > >
> > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary
for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's
lifetime
> > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve
all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.   Each of us
has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > >
> > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > >
> > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between
Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > >
> > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and
college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix
was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes,
and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage
friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents
were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead
of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > >
> > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > >
> > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings
about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls
back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced
youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It
was exploitation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > >
> > > > > Peace,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they
feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come
from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those
years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken
up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you
would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were
an eckist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Leaf,

Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do, including
me.

My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I had
read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately believed
in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences are inner
experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product or
organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught from
one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with animal
spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native Americans
probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.

I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American Shaman
books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many past
lives where I practiced such things.

Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's research.
David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt of
gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David was
somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.

Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I have no
problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I didn't
see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join if
they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing anything
to recruit new members.

I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any religious
experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize people for
being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you criticize
everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred view of
the world.

My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once claimed that
everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to make up their
own minds instead of acting like you "know better"

Jonathan



--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Jonathan,
>
> For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is that
anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god realization, but
mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And there is considerable
evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is nothing new and is rampant
in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
>
> Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various
abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.
>
> I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the delusion
that they are Lords of the Universe.
>
> The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at a
small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes
about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room,
I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the
placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all
due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered
states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own
powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru,
which really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are
following and worshiping.
>
> I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left eckankar
and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and had a
guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul travel
workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people traveled
long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought he might
become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all. And yet, he
was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a history of a
taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He wasn't the real
thing.
>
> And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew of his
character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a Master
in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.
>
> By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who broke
off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more clever
approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims of its
history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather than
fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
>
> People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous charlatans,
sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast majority of
cases.
>
> In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac self
appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers, are
common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim with
well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe that
THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
>
> The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced,
healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your
universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance
on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real
value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of
spiritual exploration.
>
> In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any
criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
>
> If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone says,
just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all from
the eckankar experience.
>
> Speaking for me only,
>
> Leaf
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Leaf,
> >
> > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know about
the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting on
this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly
different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
> >
> > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the subject
kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about past
lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
> >
> > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially
planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many
former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed,
so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if we
were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would have
to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving to
validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters, something
is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference between a
real experience and imagination.
> > >
> > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a
fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know
that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> > >
> > > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters. I'm
not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists to
apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well
meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable.
That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> > >
> > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my
transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those
writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or
Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that
makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> > >
> > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were scammed,
so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more refined
degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do this, we
would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> > >
> > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be said,
considering the nature of this forum.
> > >
> > > Speaking for myself only,
> > >
> > > Leaf
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thomas,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > > >
> > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but
I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> > > >
> > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special,
very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I
did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > > >
> > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The
project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there
including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last
file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life
regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but
I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
> > > >
> > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join,
and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I
have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the
way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve
your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > > >
> > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > > >
> > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I
had to think up something.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read the
books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression
sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are
also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > >
> > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to
go through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life
agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my
incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past
lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first
incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much earlier
than that.
> > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be
appreciated
> > > > >
> > > > > Thomas.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > > >
> > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them
on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I
believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > > > >
> > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a
member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an
ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck
masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take
on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the
time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in
the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past
life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > > >
> > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's
books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books
were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and
adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention
that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a
member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on
the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a
Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to
talk about them openly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary
for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's
lifetime
> > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to
resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.  
Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between
Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school
and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix
was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes,
and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage
friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents
were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead
of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they
feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come
from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw
those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have
taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think
you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you
were an eckist?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Leaf,

I have a question for you. Why your long discussion about people who left
Eckankar and started their own religion? It seems to be completely unrelated to
the present discussion of my message board which is about past lives, inner
experiences, and healing with meridian techniques. I see a minor tie-in with
inner experiences, but it is only minor because millions of people in the world
who were never involved with Eckankar have inner experiences. Lots of Christians
have inner experiences. Are you going to claim that Klemp influenced them to do
that?

Jonathan



--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Leaf,
>
> Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do, including
me.
>
> My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I had
read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately believed
in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences are inner
experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product or
organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught from
one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with animal
spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native Americans
probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.
>
> I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American Shaman
books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many past
lives where I practiced such things.
>
> Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's research.
David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt of
gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David was
somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.
>
> Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I have
no problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I didn't
see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join if
they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing anything
to recruit new members.
>
> I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any religious
experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize people for
being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you criticize
everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred view of
the world.
>
> My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once claimed
that everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to make up
their own minds instead of acting like you "know better"
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Jonathan,
> >
> > For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is that
anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god realization, but
mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And there is considerable
evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is nothing new and is rampant
in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
> >
> > Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various
abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.
> >
> > I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the
delusion that they are Lords of the Universe.
> >
> > The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at a
small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes
about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room,
I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the
placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all
due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered
states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own
powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru,
which really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are
following and worshiping.
> >
> > I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left
eckankar and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and
had a guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul
travel workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people
traveled long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought
he might become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all.
And yet, he was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a
history of a taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He
wasn't the real thing.
> >
> > And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew of
his character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a
Master in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.
> >
> > By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who
broke off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more
clever approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims
of its history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather
than fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
> >
> > People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous charlatans,
sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast majority of
cases.
> >
> > In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac
self appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers,
are common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim
with well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe
that THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
> >
> > The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced,
healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your
universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance
on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real
value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of
spiritual exploration.
> >
> > In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any
criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
> >
> > If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone
says, just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all
from the eckankar experience.
> >
> > Speaking for me only,
> >
> > Leaf
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Leaf,
> > >
> > > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know
about the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting
on this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly
different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
> > >
> > > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the
subject kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about
past lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
> > >
> > > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially
planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many
former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed,
so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if we
were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would have
to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving to
validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters, something
is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference between a
real experience and imagination.
> > > >
> > > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a
fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know
that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> > > >
> > > > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters.
I'm not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists
to apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well
meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable.
That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> > > >
> > > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my
transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those
writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or
Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that
makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> > > >
> > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were scammed,
so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more refined
degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do this, we
would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> > > >
> > > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be said,
considering the nature of this forum.
> > > >
> > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thomas,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group,
but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> > > > >
> > > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a
special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life
regression"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I
did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The
project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there
including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last
file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life
regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but
I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can
join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can
join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message
boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to
approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > > > >
> > > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I
had to think up something.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read
the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression
sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are
also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to
go through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life
agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my
incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your
past lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your
first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much
earlier than that.
> > > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be
appreciated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express
them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs.
I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was
a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an
ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck
masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take
on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the
time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in
the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of
past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael
Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his
books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave
and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare
mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned
while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists
or on the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling
like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not
being to talk about them openly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@
...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste
of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual
path:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths
necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the
individual's lifetime
> > > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need
to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to
resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.  
Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told
to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between
Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about
your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school
and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi
Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar
clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former
teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my
parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends
instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my
activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like
Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of
my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one
of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible
that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group,
like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's
good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that
they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically
come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw
those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have
taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think
you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you
were an eckist?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I
am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this,
as well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Jonathan,

I will answer your reply point by point below:

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Leaf,
>
> Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do, including
me.
>


Leaf answers: That's fine. I've had experiences too. I didn't say people don't
have real experiences, only that far too many lack reliable criteria to
adequately measure them and they lack the skill of critical thinking to know
which are real, and which are not.


> My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I had
read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately believed
in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences are inner
experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product or
organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught from
one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with animal
spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native Americans
probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.
>


Leaf answers: That's fine. I had experiences before eckankar too, which I
believe were probably far more authentic than many of those I experienced in
eckankar.



> I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American Shaman
books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many past
lives where I practiced such things.
>
> Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's research.
David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt of
gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David was
somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.
>


Leaf answers: I don't agree that Johnson's book went far beyond Lane. The bulk
of the information is the same, with the exception of Johnson's own inclusion of
his own religious views and analysis, which are different, of course, than
Lane's. But as to purely the expose' of eckankar, Lane did the bulk of the work.



> Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I have
no problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I didn't
see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join if
they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing anything
to recruit new members.
>

Leaf answers: Okay, but I didn't refer to recruitment or forced membership.

Please reread my comments.

I was referring to Johnson's lack of effort to foster in people a more refined
degree of critical thinking skills to better assess not only teachers and
teachings, but also to better assess authentic spiritual experiences. Instead he
tried to funnel them into his own group.

I do give him a lot of credit for waking people up from eckankar, but he tried
to move them into his own group, rather than supporting the process of awakening
from delusion.

***Um, did you catch what I just wrote? As in, "I give him a lot of credit..."?

Eckankar created a culture that encourages people to believe any dream, inner
vision, or impression as purely factual, so long as the experience reinforces
belief in eckankar and its masters. People who leave would be better off
learning to better weigh these experiences, rather than to move from one
delusion to possibly another.

To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of the eck
masters were real? How about his past life experiences with eck masters? If eck
masters and eckankar are fictional, how would anyone have had such detailed,
specific experiences with it?

What about the various rip-offs of eckankar, such as Mulvin, Turner, and the
others? Do you think they are authentic masters, or are they deluded or
unscrupulous?

Is everything you learned in eckankar truth, with exception of its fictional
masters? Just what have you learned from the experience of leaving eckankar?

I would be interested in your answer to these questions.



> I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any religious
experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize people for
being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you criticize
everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred view of
the world.
>


Leaf answers: This is way out of line with what I actually stated. I am not at
all trying to keep people away from VALID spiritual experiences, although I
suspected you might erroneously draw this conclusion. It's a strawman argument
that I never made.

I am suggesting that people try to have a more refined sense of how to determine
if an experience is authentic or not, and to have a less rigid, automatic,
knee-jerk acceptance of nearly anything that enters their minds.

Real experiences are a gift. I believe, based on years of observation of
eckists, that too many experiences are accepted as gospel, when in fact they are
not even real in many cases.

Eckankar teaches people to accept almost any dream or slightest nuance of an
experience as true and real, so long as it tends to support eckankar. This is a
ridiculous and entrapping approach, and not a very astute way to approach
authentic spirituality.

And it cheapens true experiences.

Yet former eckists sometimes continue with the absurd approach even after they
leave.



> My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once claimed
that everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to make up
their own minds instead of acting like you "know better"
>

Leaf answers: Don't I have the same right to express my opinion as you do? I
didn't actually state that your experiences aren't valid, only that people
should be more discerning about these issues than we were taught in eckankar.

Have you noticed I often end my posts with,

"SPEAKING FOR MYSELF ONLY"??

Indeed, I am speaking for myself only.


> Jonathan
>
>
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Jonathan,
> >
> > For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is that
anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god realization, but
mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And there is considerable
evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is nothing new and is rampant
in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
> >
> > Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various
abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.
> >
> > I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the
delusion that they are Lords of the Universe.
> >
> > The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at a
small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes
about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room,
I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the
placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all
due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered
states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own
powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru,
which really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are
following and worshiping.
> >
> > I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left
eckankar and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and
had a guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul
travel workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people
traveled long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought
he might become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all.
And yet, he was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a
history of a taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He
wasn't the real thing.
> >
> > And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew of
his character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a
Master in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.
> >
> > By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who
broke off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more
clever approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims
of its history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather
than fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
> >
> > People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous charlatans,
sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast majority of
cases.
> >
> > In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac
self appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers,
are common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim
with well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe
that THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
> >
> > The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced,
healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your
universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance
on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real
value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of
spiritual exploration.
> >
> > In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any
criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
> >
> > If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone
says, just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all
from the eckankar experience.
> >
> > Speaking for me only,
> >
> > Leaf
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Leaf,
> > >
> > > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know
about the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting
on this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly
different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
> > >
> > > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the
subject kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about
past lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
> > >
> > > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially
planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many
former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed,
so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if we
were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would have
to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving to
validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters, something
is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference between a
real experience and imagination.
> > > >
> > > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a
fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know
that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> > > >
> > > > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters.
I'm not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists
to apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well
meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable.
That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> > > >
> > > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my
transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those
writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or
Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that
makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> > > >
> > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were scammed,
so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more refined
degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do this, we
would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> > > >
> > > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be said,
considering the nature of this forum.
> > > >
> > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thomas,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group,
but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> > > > >
> > > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a
special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life
regression"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I
did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The
project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there
including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last
file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life
regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but
I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can
join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can
join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message
boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to
approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > > > >
> > > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I
had to think up something.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read
the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression
sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are
also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to
go through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life
agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my
incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your
past lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your
first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much
earlier than that.
> > > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be
appreciated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express
them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs.
I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was
a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an
ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck
masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take
on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the
time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in
the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of
past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael
Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his
books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave
and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare
mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned
while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists
or on the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling
like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not
being to talk about them openly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@
...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste
of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual
path:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths
necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the
individual's lifetime
> > > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need
to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to
resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.  
Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told
to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between
Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about
your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school
and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi
Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar
clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former
teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my
parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends
instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my
activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like
Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of
my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one
of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible
that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group,
like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's
good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that
they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically
come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw
those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have
taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think
you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you
were an eckist?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I
am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this,
as well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Jonathan, I referred to the self appointed masters who left eckankar claiming to
be Godmen, and how obvious it is they are either highly deluded or highly
unethical, or both, as an example of how a person may have an "experience" and
become completely deceived by it, even to the point of extreme delusions of
grandeur. In other words, spiritual experiences can sometimes deceive the person
who lacks the grounding provided by a healthy degree of objectivity and critical
thinking abilities.

I also was making the point that it is very common for people to experience
these delusions. At least, far more common than I ever imagined.

Do you believe any of these founders of the offshoots of eckankar are true
godmen? Are their claims legitimate, in your view? Do you believe, still, that
you need a godman to get the true linkup to the sound current, as these
off-shoots claim?

Leaf

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Leaf,
>
> I have a question for you. Why your long discussion about people who left
Eckankar and started their own religion? It seems to be completely unrelated to
the present discussion of my message board which is about past lives, inner
experiences, and healing with meridian techniques. I see a minor tie-in with
inner experiences, but it is only minor because millions of people in the world
who were never involved with Eckankar have inner experiences. Lots of Christians
have inner experiences. Are you going to claim that Klemp influenced them to do
that?
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Leaf,
> >
> > Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do,
including me.
> >
> > My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I had
read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately believed
in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences are inner
experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product or
organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught from
one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with animal
spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native Americans
probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.
> >
> > I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American
Shaman books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many
past lives where I practiced such things.
> >
> > Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's research.
David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt of
gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David was
somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.
> >
> > Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I
have no problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I
didn't see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join
if they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing
anything to recruit new members.
> >
> > I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any
religious experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize
people for being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you
criticize everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred
view of the world.
> >
> > My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once claimed
that everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to make up
their own minds instead of acting like you "know better"
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan,
> > >
> > > For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is
that anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god
realization, but mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And
there is considerable evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is
nothing new and is rampant in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
> > >
> > > Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various
abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.
> > >
> > > I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the
delusion that they are Lords of the Universe.
> > >
> > > The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at a
small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes
about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room,
I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the
placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all
due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered
states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own
powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru,
which really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are
following and worshiping.
> > >
> > > I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left
eckankar and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and
had a guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul
travel workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people
traveled long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought
he might become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all.
And yet, he was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a
history of a taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He
wasn't the real thing.
> > >
> > > And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew of
his character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a
Master in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.
> > >
> > > By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who
broke off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more
clever approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims
of its history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather
than fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
> > >
> > > People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous
charlatans, sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast
majority of cases.
> > >
> > > In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac
self appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers,
are common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim
with well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe
that THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
> > >
> > > The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced,
healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your
universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance
on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real
value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of
spiritual exploration.
> > >
> > > In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any
criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
> > >
> > > If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone
says, just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all
from the eckankar experience.
> > >
> > > Speaking for me only,
> > >
> > > Leaf
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Leaf,
> > > >
> > > > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know
about the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting
on this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly
different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
> > > >
> > > > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the
subject kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about
past lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
> > > >
> > > > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially
planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many
former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed,
so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if
we were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would
have to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving
to validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters,
something is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference
between a real experience and imagination.
> > > > >
> > > > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a
fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know
that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> > > > >
> > > > > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters.
I'm not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists
to apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well
meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable.
That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my
transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those
writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or
Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that
makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were
scammed, so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more
refined degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do
this, we would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be
said, considering the nature of this forum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in
your present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group,
but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a
special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life
regression"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And
I did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives
go won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The
project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there
including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last
file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life
regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but
I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can
join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can
join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message
boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to
approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but
I had to think up something.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@>
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read
the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression
sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are
also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort
to go through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life
agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my
incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your
past lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your
first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much
earlier than that.
> > > > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be
appreciated
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thomas.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express
them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs.
I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I
was a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending
an ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be
Eck masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may
take on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at
the time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar
in the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that
are associated with us are not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk
about something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar
currently teaches.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of
past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael
Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his
books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave
and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare
mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned
while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists
or on the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling
like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not
being to talk about them openly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@
...> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a
waste of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual
path:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths
necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the
individual's lifetime
> > > > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would
need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level
of unfoldment
> > > > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to
resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.  
Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were
told to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in
his works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works
and persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life
Between Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about
your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off
school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me
in a better direction.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi
Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar
clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former
teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my
parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends
instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my
activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like
Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal
personal development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to
do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all
of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to
have nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link
between us.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar
hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is
one of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's
possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar
group, like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either
way, it's good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached
carefully, especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that
they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically
come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw
those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have
taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think
you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you
were an eckist?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here. 
I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on
this, as well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great
many years.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I
used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior
to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was
really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the
eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they
were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns
and secret spaces.

So what do you do with this kind of thing?

Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or
other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences
set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the
deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.

When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists,
including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some
other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing
to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to
upset the whole cult.

I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and
imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if
not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to
do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying
answer.

Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal,
discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and
nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk.
Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.

Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about
every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or
that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth,
inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing
(as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).

Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what
goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all
of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and
in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.

I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close
to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost
his already distorted sense of self.

Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like 
us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow
and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree
with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the
helm.

When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I
used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior
to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was
really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the
eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they
were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns
and secret spaces.

So what do you do with this kind of thing?

Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or
other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences
set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the
deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.

When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists,
including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some
other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing
to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to
upset the whole cult.

I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and
imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if
not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to
do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying
answer.

Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal,
discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and
nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk.
Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.

Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about
every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or
that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth,
inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing
(as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).

Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what
goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all
of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and
in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.

I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close
to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost
his already distorted sense of self.

Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like 
us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow
and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree
with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the
helm.

Leaf,

I seem to have made the mistake of thinking that your comments were somehow
addressed to my message board. So I have changed the subject line.

I don't think I have time to answer all of your questions. But I will say that
my inner experiences which were with Eck masters, but also other beings, were
NOTHING like what Eckankar taught me. In fact the few Eckists I told small
portions of it to informed me that they weren't legitimate inner experiences.
That is why I decide to not send a letter to Klemp asking him because I was
cynical enough to believe that he would tell me the same thing. And after
reading about the Graham Forsyth fiasco in Ford's book I was certain that I was
right.

I would like to mention one more thing about Ford's book. I felt that he should
have mentioned Lane's name more often in the text of the book. I believe Ford
referenced Lane often, but it was with a number which then had to be looked up
at the rear of the book. The name "David Lane" should have appeared in the text
more often. That created the impression that Ford actually did more of the
research than he really did. But I am going to give Ford the benefit of the
doubt and assume that it was an honest oversight on his part. It was a very long
book, and you never get everything perfect. I saw Ford give one talk (outside
Eckankar, but while he was a member) and I was nothing but impressed with him as
an honest forthright person.

I don't concern myself very much with spinoff masters. I left Eckankar, but I
don't have the interest to study them. I spoke out a lot about Eckankar when I
first left, but after awhile I realized that there was so much information
already on the Internet that if somebody really wants it, they can find it.

> To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of > the eck
masters were real? How about his past life experiences with > eck masters? If
eck masters and eckankar are fictional, how would
> anyone have had such detailed, specific experiences with it?

Good question, and I have thought it before. I'm not sure I have figured out the
answer but I will give you two wild theories.

I'm wondering if a group of religious followers strong belief creates these
masters on the inner planes. But I don't mean that as simply an extension of
their imagination. If people believe that there is a master named Rebazar on the
inner with a certain appearance and personality, then spiritual energy on the
inner planes actually forms a living being with those characteristics. But this
is a real, living being, not a projection of their consciousness, or a split-off
of their consciousness.

Another possibility is that legitimate spiritual masters on the inner are simply
taking on the appearance of Eck masters. Based on my experiences with them, that
wouldn't surprise me, and would explain why so many people swear that the
Rebazar Tarz they spoke to on the inner was truly a radiant being of tremendous
spiritual energy and love. I have a hard time disbelieving people who report
that to me that because I experienced it myself.

Jonathan


--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
> Jonathan,
>
> I will answer your reply point by point below:
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Leaf,
> >
> > Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do,
including me.
> >
>
>
> Leaf answers: That's fine. I've had experiences too. I didn't say people don't
have real experiences, only that far too many lack reliable criteria to
adequately measure them and they lack the skill of critical thinking to know
which are real, and which are not.
>
>
> > My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I had
read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately believed
in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences are inner
experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product or
organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught from
one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with animal
spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native Americans
probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.
> >
>
>
> Leaf answers: That's fine. I had experiences before eckankar too, which I
believe were probably far more authentic than many of those I experienced in
eckankar.
>
>
>
> > I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American
Shaman books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many
past lives where I practiced such things.
> >
> > Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's research.
David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt of
gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David was
somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.
> >
>
>
> Leaf answers: I don't agree that Johnson's book went far beyond Lane. The bulk
of the information is the same, with the exception of Johnson's own inclusion of
his own religious views and analysis, which are different, of course, than
Lane's. But as to purely the expose' of eckankar, Lane did the bulk of the work.
>
>
>
> > Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I
have no problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I
didn't see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join
if they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing
anything to recruit new members.
> >
>
> Leaf answers: Okay, but I didn't refer to recruitment or forced membership.
>
> Please reread my comments.
>
> I was referring to Johnson's lack of effort to foster in people a more refined
degree of critical thinking skills to better assess not only teachers and
teachings, but also to better assess authentic spiritual experiences. Instead he
tried to funnel them into his own group.
>
> I do give him a lot of credit for waking people up from eckankar, but he tried
to move them into his own group, rather than supporting the process of awakening
from delusion.
>
> ***Um, did you catch what I just wrote? As in, "I give him a lot of
credit..."?
>
> Eckankar created a culture that encourages people to believe any dream, inner
vision, or impression as purely factual, so long as the experience reinforces
belief in eckankar and its masters. People who leave would be better off
learning to better weigh these experiences, rather than to move from one
delusion to possibly another.
>
> To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of the eck
masters were real? How about his past life experiences with eck masters? If eck
masters and eckankar are fictional, how would anyone have had such detailed,
specific experiences with it?
>
> What about the various rip-offs of eckankar, such as Mulvin, Turner, and the
others? Do you think they are authentic masters, or are they deluded or
unscrupulous?
>
> Is everything you learned in eckankar truth, with exception of its fictional
masters? Just what have you learned from the experience of leaving eckankar?
>
> I would be interested in your answer to these questions.
>
>
>
> > I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any
religious experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize
people for being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you
criticize everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred
view of the world.
> >
>
>
> Leaf answers: This is way out of line with what I actually stated. I am not at
all trying to keep people away from VALID spiritual experiences, although I
suspected you might erroneously draw this conclusion. It's a strawman argument
that I never made.
>
> I am suggesting that people try to have a more refined sense of how to
determine if an experience is authentic or not, and to have a less rigid,
automatic, knee-jerk acceptance of nearly anything that enters their minds.
>
> Real experiences are a gift. I believe, based on years of observation of
eckists, that too many experiences are accepted as gospel, when in fact they are
not even real in many cases.
>
> Eckankar teaches people to accept almost any dream or slightest nuance of an
experience as true and real, so long as it tends to support eckankar. This is a
ridiculous and entrapping approach, and not a very astute way to approach
authentic spirituality.
>
> And it cheapens true experiences.
>
> Yet former eckists sometimes continue with the absurd approach even after they
leave.
>
>
>
> > My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once claimed
that everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to make up
their own minds instead of acting like you "know better"
> >
>
> Leaf answers: Don't I have the same right to express my opinion as you do? I
didn't actually state that your experiences aren't valid, only that people
should be more discerning about these issues than we were taught in eckankar.
>
> Have you noticed I often end my posts with,
>
> "SPEAKING FOR MYSELF ONLY"??
>
> Indeed, I am speaking for myself only.
>
>
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan,
> > >
> > > For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is
that anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god
realization, but mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And
there is considerable evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is
nothing new and is rampant in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
> > >
> > > Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various
abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.
> > >
> > > I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the
delusion that they are Lords of the Universe.
> > >
> > > The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at a
small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes
about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room,
I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the
placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all
due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered
states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own
powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru,
which really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are
following and worshiping.
> > >
> > > I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left
eckankar and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and
had a guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul
travel workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people
traveled long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought
he might become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all.
And yet, he was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a
history of a taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He
wasn't the real thing.
> > >
> > > And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew of
his character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a
Master in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.
> > >
> > > By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who
broke off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more
clever approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims
of its history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather
than fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
> > >
> > > People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous
charlatans, sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast
majority of cases.
> > >
> > > In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac
self appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers,
are common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim
with well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe
that THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
> > >
> > > The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced,
healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your
universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance
on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real
value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of
spiritual exploration.
> > >
> > > In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any
criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
> > >
> > > If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone
says, just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all
from the eckankar experience.
> > >
> > > Speaking for me only,
> > >
> > > Leaf
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Leaf,
> > > >
> > > > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know
about the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting
on this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly
different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
> > > >
> > > > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the
subject kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about
past lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
> > > >
> > > > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially
planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many
former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed,
so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if
we were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would
have to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving
to validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters,
something is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference
between a real experience and imagination.
> > > > >
> > > > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a
fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know
that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> > > > >
> > > > > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters.
I'm not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists
to apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well
meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable.
That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my
transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those
writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or
Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that
makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were
scammed, so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more
refined degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do
this, we would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be
said, considering the nature of this forum.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in
your present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group,
but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a
special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life
regression"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And
I did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives
go won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The
project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there
including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last
file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life
regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but
I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can
join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can
join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message
boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to
approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but
I had to think up something.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@>
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read
the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression
sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are
also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort
to go through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life
agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my
incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your
past lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your
first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much
earlier than that.
> > > > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be
appreciated
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thomas.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express
them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs.
I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I
was a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending
an ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be
Eck masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may
take on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at
the time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar
in the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that
are associated with us are not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk
about something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar
currently teaches.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of
past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael
Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his
books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave
and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare
mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned
while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists
or on the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling
like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not
being to talk about them openly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@
...> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a
waste of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual
path:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths
necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the
individual's lifetime
> > > > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would
need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level
of unfoldment
> > > > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to
resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.  
Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were
told to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in
his works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works
and persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life
Between Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about
your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off
school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me
in a better direction.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi
Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar
clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former
teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my
parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends
instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my
activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like
Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal
personal development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to
do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all
of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to
have nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link
between us.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar
hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is
one of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's
possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar
group, like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either
way, it's good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached
carefully, especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that
they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically
come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw
those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have
taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think
you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you
were an eckist?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here. 
I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on
this, as well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great
many years.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Harrison,

That was beautifully stated, and right on. I concur.

Leaf

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I
used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior
to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was
really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the
eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they
were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns
and secret spaces.
>
> So what do you do with this kind of thing?
>
> Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic
or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences
set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the
deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
>
> When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy,
eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light
or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want
nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It
scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
threatens to upset the whole cult.
>
> I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and
imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if
not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to
do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying
answer.
>
> Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal,
discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and
nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk.
Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
>
> Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about
every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or
that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth,
inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing
(as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
>
> Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what
goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all
of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and
in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
>
> I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close
to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost
his already distorted sense of self.
>
> Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like
us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow
and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree
with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the
helm.
>

Harrison,

I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for
you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is
something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford
only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had
the time to read his book.

So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a
master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well
with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner
experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting
close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are
your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that
you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling
you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other
masters and/or Eckankar anymore.

From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather
engaging in a general discussion.

Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his
experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of
Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many
Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse
than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the
worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all
of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said
they should be.

I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left
Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul
travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as
the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You
know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you
there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!

So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is
going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in
Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave
Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal,
or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.

I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby.
This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the
book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your
standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
it, they are leaving Eckankar.

Jonathan



--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I
used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior
to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was
really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the
eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they
were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns
and secret spaces.
>
> So what do you do with this kind of thing?
>
> Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic
or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences
set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the
deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
>
> When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy,
eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light
or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want
nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It
scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
threatens to upset the whole cult.
>
> I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and
imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if
not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to
do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying
answer.
>
> Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal,
discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and
nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk.
Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
>
> Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about
every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or
that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth,
inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing
(as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
>
> Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what
goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all
of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and
in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
>
> I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close
to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost
his already distorted sense of self.
>
> Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like
us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow
and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree
with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the
helm.
>

Jonathan,

If legitimate masters were appearing to Morimitsu in the guise of eck masters,
why would they fool Morimitsu into thinking they were validating a phony
plagiarist? Wouldn't they have been careful not to bolster a fraud, and yet even
more fraud by assisting Phil to write a book that further promotes an insult to
truth? Wouldn't they have tried to gently lead Phil to a better understanding?

Sorry, I don't buy the rationalization.

Your theory is not new, and I even came up with such a rationalization once
myself, years ago, as have several others on the net.

But can you entertain the very plausible possibility that Morimitsu was
stretching the truth, or was deceived? Or maybe completely freakin' nuts?

If you read his stuff carefully, he admits in the preface to one of his books
that his stories are all based on very subtle "impressions," and that Harold
encouraged him to believe those impressions as literal truths. In other words,
he was talked into lending more credibility to the stories than he initially
believed. Doug Marman, incredible as it may seem, actually agreed with my
assessment of Morimitsu's statement, in a discussion we were having on a.r.e.

That said it all to me.

Leaf

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Leaf,
>
> I seem to have made the mistake of thinking that your comments were somehow
addressed to my message board. So I have changed the subject line.
>
> I don't think I have time to answer all of your questions. But I will say that
my inner experiences which were with Eck masters, but also other beings, were
NOTHING like what Eckankar taught me. In fact the few Eckists I told small
portions of it to informed me that they weren't legitimate inner experiences.
That is why I decide to not send a letter to Klemp asking him because I was
cynical enough to believe that he would tell me the same thing. And after
reading about the Graham Forsyth fiasco in Ford's book I was certain that I was
right.
>
> I would like to mention one more thing about Ford's book. I felt that he
should have mentioned Lane's name more often in the text of the book. I believe
Ford referenced Lane often, but it was with a number which then had to be looked
up at the rear of the book. The name "David Lane" should have appeared in the
text more often. That created the impression that Ford actually did more of the
research than he really did. But I am going to give Ford the benefit of the
doubt and assume that it was an honest oversight on his part. It was a very long
book, and you never get everything perfect. I saw Ford give one talk (outside
Eckankar, but while he was a member) and I was nothing but impressed with him as
an honest forthright person.
>
> I don't concern myself very much with spinoff masters. I left Eckankar, but I
don't have the interest to study them. I spoke out a lot about Eckankar when I
first left, but after awhile I realized that there was so much information
already on the Internet that if somebody really wants it, they can find it.
>
> > To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of > the eck
masters were real? How about his past life experiences with > eck masters? If
eck masters and eckankar are fictional, how would
> > anyone have had such detailed, specific experiences with it?
>
> Good question, and I have thought it before. I'm not sure I have figured out
the answer but I will give you two wild theories.
>
> I'm wondering if a group of religious followers strong belief creates these
masters on the inner planes. But I don't mean that as simply an extension of
their imagination. If people believe that there is a master named Rebazar on the
inner with a certain appearance and personality, then spiritual energy on the
inner planes actually forms a living being with those characteristics. But this
is a real, living being, not a projection of their consciousness, or a split-off
of their consciousness.
>
> Another possibility is that legitimate spiritual masters on the inner are
simply taking on the appearance of Eck masters. Based on my experiences with
them, that wouldn't surprise me, and would explain why so many people swear that
the Rebazar Tarz they spoke to on the inner was truly a radiant being of
tremendous spiritual energy and love. I have a hard time disbelieving people who
report that to me that because I experienced it myself.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan,
> >
> > I will answer your reply point by point below:
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Leaf,
> > >
> > > Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do,
including me.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Leaf answers: That's fine. I've had experiences too. I didn't say people
don't have real experiences, only that far too many lack reliable criteria to
adequately measure them and they lack the skill of critical thinking to know
which are real, and which are not.
> >
> >
> > > My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I
had read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately
believed in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences
are inner experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product
or organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught
from one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with
animal spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native
Americans probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Leaf answers: That's fine. I had experiences before eckankar too, which I
believe were probably far more authentic than many of those I experienced in
eckankar.
> >
> >
> >
> > > I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American
Shaman books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many
past lives where I practiced such things.
> > >
> > > Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's
research. David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt
of gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David
was somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Leaf answers: I don't agree that Johnson's book went far beyond Lane. The
bulk of the information is the same, with the exception of Johnson's own
inclusion of his own religious views and analysis, which are different, of
course, than Lane's. But as to purely the expose' of eckankar, Lane did the bulk
of the work.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I
have no problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I
didn't see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join
if they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing
anything to recruit new members.
> > >
> >
> > Leaf answers: Okay, but I didn't refer to recruitment or forced membership.
> >
> > Please reread my comments.
> >
> > I was referring to Johnson's lack of effort to foster in people a more
refined degree of critical thinking skills to better assess not only teachers
and teachings, but also to better assess authentic spiritual experiences.
Instead he tried to funnel them into his own group.
> >
> > I do give him a lot of credit for waking people up from eckankar, but he
tried to move them into his own group, rather than supporting the process of
awakening from delusion.
> >
> > ***Um, did you catch what I just wrote? As in, "I give him a lot of
credit..."?
> >
> > Eckankar created a culture that encourages people to believe any dream,
inner vision, or impression as purely factual, so long as the experience
reinforces belief in eckankar and its masters. People who leave would be better
off learning to better weigh these experiences, rather than to move from one
delusion to possibly another.
> >
> > To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of the eck
masters were real? How about his past life experiences with eck masters? If eck
masters and eckankar are fictional, how would anyone have had such detailed,
specific experiences with it?
> >
> > What about the various rip-offs of eckankar, such as Mulvin, Turner, and the
others? Do you think they are authentic masters, or are they deluded or
unscrupulous?
> >
> > Is everything you learned in eckankar truth, with exception of its fictional
masters? Just what have you learned from the experience of leaving eckankar?
> >
> > I would be interested in your answer to these questions.
> >
> >
> >
> > > I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any
religious experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize
people for being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you
criticize everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred
view of the world.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Leaf answers: This is way out of line with what I actually stated. I am not
at all trying to keep people away from VALID spiritual experiences, although I
suspected you might erroneously draw this conclusion. It's a strawman argument
that I never made.
> >
> > I am suggesting that people try to have a more refined sense of how to
determine if an experience is authentic or not, and to have a less rigid,
automatic, knee-jerk acceptance of nearly anything that enters their minds.
> >
> > Real experiences are a gift. I believe, based on years of observation of
eckists, that too many experiences are accepted as gospel, when in fact they are
not even real in many cases.
> >
> > Eckankar teaches people to accept almost any dream or slightest nuance of an
experience as true and real, so long as it tends to support eckankar. This is a
ridiculous and entrapping approach, and not a very astute way to approach
authentic spirituality.
> >
> > And it cheapens true experiences.
> >
> > Yet former eckists sometimes continue with the absurd approach even after
they leave.
> >
> >
> >
> > > My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once
claimed that everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to
make up their own minds instead of acting like you "know better"
> > >
> >
> > Leaf answers: Don't I have the same right to express my opinion as you do? I
didn't actually state that your experiences aren't valid, only that people
should be more discerning about these issues than we were taught in eckankar.
> >
> > Have you noticed I often end my posts with,
> >
> > "SPEAKING FOR MYSELF ONLY"??
> >
> > Indeed, I am speaking for myself only.
> >
> >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan,
> > > >
> > > > For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is
that anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god
realization, but mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And
there is considerable evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is
nothing new and is rampant in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
> > > >
> > > > Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various
abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.
> > > >
> > > > I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the
delusion that they are Lords of the Universe.
> > > >
> > > > The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at
a small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes
about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room,
I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the
placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all
due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered
states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own
powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru,
which really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are
following and worshiping.
> > > >
> > > > I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left
eckankar and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and
had a guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul
travel workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people
traveled long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought
he might become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all.
And yet, he was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a
history of a taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He
wasn't the real thing.
> > > >
> > > > And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew
of his character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a
Master in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who
broke off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more
clever approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims
of its history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather
than fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
> > > >
> > > > People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous
charlatans, sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast
majority of cases.
> > > >
> > > > In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac
self appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers,
are common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim
with well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe
that THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
> > > >
> > > > The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced,
healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your
universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance
on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real
value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of
spiritual exploration.
> > > >
> > > > In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any
criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
> > > >
> > > > If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone
says, just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all
from the eckankar experience.
> > > >
> > > > Speaking for me only,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf,
> > > > >
> > > > > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know
about the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting
on this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly
different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
> > > > >
> > > > > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the
subject kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about
past lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson
initially planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book,
and many former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were
disappointed, so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I
made the link.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and
if we were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would
have to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving
to validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters,
something is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference
between a real experience and imagination.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and
a fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we
know that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these
matters. I'm not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise
ex-eckists to apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no
matter how well meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less
than reliable. That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with
my transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything
those writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell
or Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention
that makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were
scammed, so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more
refined degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do
this, we would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be
said, considering the nature of this forum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@>
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thomas,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in
your present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > > > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul
Group, but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life
regression."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > > > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a
special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life
regression"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences.
And I did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past
lives go won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The
project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there
including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last
file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life
regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but
I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can
join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can
join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message
boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to
approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board,
but I had to think up something.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@>
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > > > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have
read the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking
the training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression
sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are
also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the
effort to go through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what
life agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what
my incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of
your past lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your
first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much
earlier than that.
> > > > > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be
appreciated
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thomas.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to
express them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my
beliefs. I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I
still believe in it now after leaving.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I
was a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending
an ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be
Eck masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may
take on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at
the time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar
in the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that
are associated with us are not.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk
about something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar
currently teaches.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number
of past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael
Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his
books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave
and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare
mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned
while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists
or on the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling
like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not
being to talk about them openly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@
...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a
waste of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual
path:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths
necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the
individual's lifetime
> > > > > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would
need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level
of unfoldment
> > > > > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to
resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.  
Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were
told to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in
his works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works
and persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life
Between Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues
about your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but
I decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar.
I especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off
school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me
in a better direction.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi
Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar
clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former
teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my
parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends
instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my
activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like
Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal
personal development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to
do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all
of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to
have nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link
between us.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar
hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is
one of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's
possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar
group, like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either
way, it's good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached
carefully, especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that
they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically
come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply
threw those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would
have taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you
think you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while
you were an eckist?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.
I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on
this, as well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great
many years.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Ingrid,

That's very cool for you to say...

You know, what you say makes sense. I think people can make themselves miserable
thinking they have to always be striving, striving, striving for god, getting
all worked up and sweaty about it, always on the edge of a subtle and chronic
desperation for god or spirit or whatevah; doing exercises, interpreting their
dreams, reading books, pining and desiring like some lost forlorn lover....how
silly, really. Sheesh, you would think it is hormonal!

I think the answer creeps in slowly over time that none of this matters, because
you drive it away by wanting it so badly. Duh. Forget all about it, and just sit
on a porch, at dusk, watching the sunset, feeling the breeze through the trees,
and take a deep breath, effortlessly, and have a glass of good wine, maybe, and
life can be sooooo good, just sitting there, listening to the crickets.
(Eckists, I talking about the freakin' real life, physical plane crickets, not
the "inner" crickets, fer god's sake, get a grip).

The best contemplation is the one you don't plan, the one you don't think of as
contemplation or meditation, the one that just happens, because it's just
life...and then it is the best moment ever, and you know it, and the moment
belongs to no one.

Leaf, speakin' for me only.

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Leaf,
>
> I couldn't agree with you more! That's exactly how I feel too!
> eckankar was, in this sense, a very good experience for me as I, as so many
others here, learned to not again be trapped in another cult.
> I learned to take my life in my own hands and just enjoy it. I've never
understood people who say that they don't want to come back. Well, there are
certainly many who have a difficult life and I can understand why they wouldn't
want to come back. But people who basically lead a good life ...??
>
> Also, I don't use the words "spiritual" or "spirituality" any more since I
left eckankar because for me they don't mean anything any more.
>
> Everybody is different, which makes life so interesting! :-)
> Ingrid
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Brother Thomas,
> >
> > I hope you can take this with a bit of humor and a grain of salt, but
regarding your comments about finding one's own path: for me there is no finding
anything within a "time frame" and there is no "spiritual goal."
> >
> > Hell, I'm not seeking anything whatsoever. Life is right here, man. I'm not
going anywhere, and I'm not looking for anything. Seriously.
> >
> > Leafeater (ate the leaf and left)
> >
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Leaf,
> > >      I agree that everyone must find their own path and within their own
time frame to achieve their spiritual goals.   Although I may still like some of
the spiritual teachings of Eckankar, I do not dwell on them and have moved far
beyond them.   See my other post for what I am doing now.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@>
> > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010 11:23:08 PM
> > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas:
> > >
> > > I am not at all going to try to talk you out of your spiritual beliefs,
which are personal to each individual. If your beliefs are that the eckankar
experience was "another step in unfoldment," that is fine.
> > >
> > > As to me, after leaving eckankar, I find myself free of most of my former
beliefs, with the exception of some very basic, non-theistic views that are
similar if not equivalent to early Taoism, which I happen to enjoy. Taoists
don't believe in a sentient, personal god, but instead in an undefinable unity
or "way." Casting off of religious belief systems has been one of the most
profoundly liberating and uplifting experiences of my life.
> > >
> > > Please don't assume that all ex-eckists continue following combinations of
Hindu/Sant Mat (or even Buddhist) forms of thought. These are belief systems
that some of us may no longer entirely embrace to the extent we once did. There
is a lot of variance of beliefs among former eckists, thankfully.
> > >
> > > This is an ex-eckankar forum. Wouldn't it would be a shame if we were ALL
expected to still believe most of which eckankar teaches, as if we were still
all marching in lockstep like good little eckists? One of the most important
realizations I have had from the eckankar experience is the right to give myself
the basic freedom to be find my own authentic way, without succumbing to the
judgments of people who feel the need to admonish or invalidate me if I don't
agree with their belief systems.
> > >
> > > I completely support you exploring the path you create for yourself after
leaving eckankar. It would be a tragedy if, after having left eckankar, we all
remained the same as before, all feeling pressured to think alike, and arguing
over platitudes just as before.
> > >
> > > Don't you agree?
> > >
> > > Speaking for myself only,
> > >
> > > Leaf
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > >
> > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > >
> > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary for
complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's lifetime
> > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve
all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.   Each of us
has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > >
> > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > >
> > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between Life,
or Future Life Progression?
> > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi zoey,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I decided
to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a
sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely sixteen, after finding
an eck book at age 14.
> > > >
> > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and
college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > >
> > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was
rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and
did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends
would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were
bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of
going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > >
> > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > >
> > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > >
> > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > >
> > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings
about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls
back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced
youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It
was exploitation.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > >
> > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they feel
that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come from
people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those
years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken
up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you
would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were
an eckist?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Leaf,

As far as impersonating, my experience with spiritual beings impersonating Eck
Masters. My experience is that these beings will do almost anything to allow you
to grow spiritually. And they don't care one bit one way or another about the
games that get played on the physical plane, including the physical structure of
Eckankar. And I am the one who decided to join Eckankar and participate in the
fraud called Eckankar.

A related question is "Why didn't my higher self warn me that Eckankar was a
fraud?" My answer is "My higher self intentionally allowed "me" to be tricked
because it knew I would be able to learn a lot of things."

But I understand your reasoning.

Regarding Phil Morimitsu. I read only one of his books and I didn't even realize
that he had more than one book until you mentioned it. My time in Eckankar
scanned 1979-2009, but I had my inner experiences in 1999. After my inner
experiences, all the Eck books seemed boring.

I just looked on Amazon.com, and they have 2 books by Phil:

Book 1 of 2 - In The Company Of Eck Masters (1997)
Product description "Personal proof through out-of-body experiences is the
underlying message of this intriguing book."

Book 2 of 2 - The Seeker (1999)
Product description "Past-life memory as a monk in Tibet of the 1600s"

I just went to Ecknakar.org, sorted the books by title and paged through to get
to Phil's books. They list the same two books.

For the first book the "org" says "A chela's intriguing inner experiences with
spiritual Adepts."

For the second book, the "org" says "An exciting novel based on the author's
past life as a monk in seventeenth-century Tibet when he first became aware of
the Light and Sound of God."

So I must have read "In the Company of Eck masters." And I must have read it
before 1999 when I had my experiences. The reason I say that is because if I
read it after my own experiences I would have no doubt had all kind of "issues"
with the book. Based on your interesting observations I wouldn't mind reading
the book again just to see what I think of the book.

But as far as the validity of the content of his books, nothing would surprise
me. But he at least he admitted in one book that it was based on "impressions."
It would be nice to interview him and ask him what he exactly he meant by that.
But of course, he would have to check with Klemp first and find out what he was
supposed to say. I get tired of trying to analyze members of Eckankar because I
never know whether they are saying what THEY believe or if they are saying what
they think Klemp thinks they should say.

Jonathan



--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jonathan,
>
> If legitimate masters were appearing to Morimitsu in the guise of eck masters,
why would they fool Morimitsu into thinking they were validating a phony
plagiarist? Wouldn't they have been careful not to bolster a fraud, and yet even
more fraud by assisting Phil to write a book that further promotes an insult to
truth? Wouldn't they have tried to gently lead Phil to a better understanding?
>
> Sorry, I don't buy the rationalization.
>
> Your theory is not new, and I even came up with such a rationalization once
myself, years ago, as have several others on the net.
>
> But can you entertain the very plausible possibility that Morimitsu was
stretching the truth, or was deceived? Or maybe completely freakin' nuts?
>
> If you read his stuff carefully, he admits in the preface to one of his books
that his stories are all based on very subtle "impressions," and that Harold
encouraged him to believe those impressions as literal truths. In other words,
he was talked into lending more credibility to the stories than he initially
believed. Doug Marman, incredible as it may seem, actually agreed with my
assessment of Morimitsu's statement, in a discussion we were having on a.r.e.
>
> That said it all to me.
>
> Leaf
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Leaf,
> >
> > I seem to have made the mistake of thinking that your comments were somehow
addressed to my message board. So I have changed the subject line.
> >
> > I don't think I have time to answer all of your questions. But I will say
that my inner experiences which were with Eck masters, but also other beings,
were NOTHING like what Eckankar taught me. In fact the few Eckists I told small
portions of it to informed me that they weren't legitimate inner experiences.
That is why I decide to not send a letter to Klemp asking him because I was
cynical enough to believe that he would tell me the same thing. And after
reading about the Graham Forsyth fiasco in Ford's book I was certain that I was
right.
> >
> > I would like to mention one more thing about Ford's book. I felt that he
should have mentioned Lane's name more often in the text of the book. I believe
Ford referenced Lane often, but it was with a number which then had to be looked
up at the rear of the book. The name "David Lane" should have appeared in the
text more often. That created the impression that Ford actually did more of the
research than he really did. But I am going to give Ford the benefit of the
doubt and assume that it was an honest oversight on his part. It was a very long
book, and you never get everything perfect. I saw Ford give one talk (outside
Eckankar, but while he was a member) and I was nothing but impressed with him as
an honest forthright person.
> >
> > I don't concern myself very much with spinoff masters. I left Eckankar, but
I don't have the interest to study them. I spoke out a lot about Eckankar when I
first left, but after awhile I realized that there was so much information
already on the Internet that if somebody really wants it, they can find it.
> >
> > > To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of > the
eck masters were real? How about his past life experiences with > eck masters?
If eck masters and eckankar are fictional, how would
> > > anyone have had such detailed, specific experiences with it?
> >
> > Good question, and I have thought it before. I'm not sure I have figured out
the answer but I will give you two wild theories.
> >
> > I'm wondering if a group of religious followers strong belief creates these
masters on the inner planes. But I don't mean that as simply an extension of
their imagination. If people believe that there is a master named Rebazar on the
inner with a certain appearance and personality, then spiritual energy on the
inner planes actually forms a living being with those characteristics. But this
is a real, living being, not a projection of their consciousness, or a split-off
of their consciousness.
> >
> > Another possibility is that legitimate spiritual masters on the inner are
simply taking on the appearance of Eck masters. Based on my experiences with
them, that wouldn't surprise me, and would explain why so many people swear that
the Rebazar Tarz they spoke to on the inner was truly a radiant being of
tremendous spiritual energy and love. I have a hard time disbelieving people who
report that to me that because I experienced it myself.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jonathan,
> > >
> > > I will answer your reply point by point below:
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Leaf,
> > > >
> > > > Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do,
including me.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Leaf answers: That's fine. I've had experiences too. I didn't say people
don't have real experiences, only that far too many lack reliable criteria to
adequately measure them and they lack the skill of critical thinking to know
which are real, and which are not.
> > >
> > >
> > > > My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I
had read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately
believed in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences
are inner experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product
or organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught
from one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with
animal spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native
Americans probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Leaf answers: That's fine. I had experiences before eckankar too, which I
believe were probably far more authentic than many of those I experienced in
eckankar.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American
Shaman books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many
past lives where I practiced such things.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's
research. David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt
of gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David
was somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Leaf answers: I don't agree that Johnson's book went far beyond Lane. The
bulk of the information is the same, with the exception of Johnson's own
inclusion of his own religious views and analysis, which are different, of
course, than Lane's. But as to purely the expose' of eckankar, Lane did the bulk
of the work.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I
have no problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I
didn't see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join
if they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing
anything to recruit new members.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Leaf answers: Okay, but I didn't refer to recruitment or forced
membership.
> > >
> > > Please reread my comments.
> > >
> > > I was referring to Johnson's lack of effort to foster in people a more
refined degree of critical thinking skills to better assess not only teachers
and teachings, but also to better assess authentic spiritual experiences.
Instead he tried to funnel them into his own group.
> > >
> > > I do give him a lot of credit for waking people up from eckankar, but he
tried to move them into his own group, rather than supporting the process of
awakening from delusion.
> > >
> > > ***Um, did you catch what I just wrote? As in, "I give him a lot of
credit..."?
> > >
> > > Eckankar created a culture that encourages people to believe any dream,
inner vision, or impression as purely factual, so long as the experience
reinforces belief in eckankar and its masters. People who leave would be better
off learning to better weigh these experiences, rather than to move from one
delusion to possibly another.
> > >
> > > To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of the eck
masters were real? How about his past life experiences with eck masters? If eck
masters and eckankar are fictional, how would anyone have had such detailed,
specific experiences with it?
> > >
> > > What about the various rip-offs of eckankar, such as Mulvin, Turner, and
the others? Do you think they are authentic masters, or are they deluded or
unscrupulous?
> > >
> > > Is everything you learned in eckankar truth, with exception of its
fictional masters? Just what have you learned from the experience of leaving
eckankar?
> > >
> > > I would be interested in your answer to these questions.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any
religious experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize
people for being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you
criticize everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred
view of the world.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Leaf answers: This is way out of line with what I actually stated. I am
not at all trying to keep people away from VALID spiritual experiences, although
I suspected you might erroneously draw this conclusion. It's a strawman argument
that I never made.
> > >
> > > I am suggesting that people try to have a more refined sense of how to
determine if an experience is authentic or not, and to have a less rigid,
automatic, knee-jerk acceptance of nearly anything that enters their minds.
> > >
> > > Real experiences are a gift. I believe, based on years of observation of
eckists, that too many experiences are accepted as gospel, when in fact they are
not even real in many cases.
> > >
> > > Eckankar teaches people to accept almost any dream or slightest nuance of
an experience as true and real, so long as it tends to support eckankar. This is
a ridiculous and entrapping approach, and not a very astute way to approach
authentic spirituality.
> > >
> > > And it cheapens true experiences.
> > >
> > > Yet former eckists sometimes continue with the absurd approach even after
they leave.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once
claimed that everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to
make up their own minds instead of acting like you "know better"
> > > >
> > >
> > > Leaf answers: Don't I have the same right to express my opinion as you do?
I didn't actually state that your experiences aren't valid, only that people
should be more discerning about these issues than we were taught in eckankar.
> > >
> > > Have you noticed I often end my posts with,
> > >
> > > "SPEAKING FOR MYSELF ONLY"??
> > >
> > > Indeed, I am speaking for myself only.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > >
> > > > > For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience
is that anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god
realization, but mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And
there is considerable evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is
nothing new and is rampant in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various
abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other
marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If
people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from
Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly
anyone.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the
delusion that they are Lords of the Universe.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him
at a small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful
anecdotes about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into
the room, I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In
spirituality, the placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce
amazing effects, all due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience
healings, altered states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all
due to their own powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed
run-of-the-mill new age guru, which really have nothing to do with the
celebrated personality they are following and worshiping.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left
eckankar and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and
had a guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul
travel workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people
traveled long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought
he might become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all.
And yet, he was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a
history of a taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He
wasn't the real thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally
knew of his character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to
be a Master in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in
Tucson.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate
who broke off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more
clever approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims
of its history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather
than fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he
instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all
"experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
> > > > >
> > > > > People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous
charlatans, sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast
majority of cases.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only
megalomaniac self appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and
followers, are common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to
the brim with well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to
believe that THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
> > > > >
> > > > > The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good,
balanced, healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony
with your universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less
importance on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches
of real value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating
aspects of spiritual exploration.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if
any criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other
phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any
cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
> > > > >
> > > > > If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything
someone says, just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing
at all from the eckankar experience.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking for me only,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leaf,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I
know about the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now
posting on this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore
vastly different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the
subject kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about
past lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson
initially planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book,
and many former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were
disappointed, so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I
made the link.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and
if we were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would
have to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving
to validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters,
something is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference
between a real experience and imagination.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters
and a fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives,
we know that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So...  a little critical thinking can go a long way in these
matters. I'm not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise
ex-eckists to apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no
matter how well meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less
than reliable. That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with
my transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything
those writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell
or Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention
that makes me question the reliability of the statements.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were
scammed, so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more
refined degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do
this, we would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be
said, considering the nature of this forum.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@>
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thomas,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in
your present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > > > > > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul
Group, but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life
regression."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your
spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and
finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
> > > > > > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a
special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life
regression"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences.
And I did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past
lives go won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board).
The project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there
including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last
file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life
regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but
I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you
can join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA
can join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message
boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to
approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board,
but I had to think up something.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@>
wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jonathan,
> > > > > > > > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have
read the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking
the training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life
regression sessions.    Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as
meeting with your spiritual guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a
life review,  and finding out your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the
effort to go through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what
life agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what
my incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of
your past lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your
first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much
earlier than that.
> > > > > > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be
appreciated
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thomas.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thomas Lee,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to
express them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my
beliefs. I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I
still believe in it now after leaving.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while
I was a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book,
spending an ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not
be Eck masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may
take on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at
the time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar
in the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that
are associated with us are not.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk
about something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar
currently teaches.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number
of past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael
Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his
books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave
and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare
mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned
while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists
or on the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling
like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not
being to talk about them openly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jonathan
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee
<thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a
waste of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a
spiritual path:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths
necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the
individual's lifetime
> > > > > > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would
need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level
of unfoldment
> > > > > > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary
to resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.  
Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were
told to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in
his works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works
and persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life
Between Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues
about your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site,
but I decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in
eckankar. I especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have
been the precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other
kids were going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and
setting up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave
my first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their
minds! Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off
school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me
in a better direction.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi
Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar
clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former
teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my
parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends
instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my
activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like
Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal
personal development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to
do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost
all of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed
to have nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link
between us.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar
hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar
is one of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's
possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar
group, like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either
way, it's good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached
carefully, especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate
that they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts
typically come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply
threw those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would
have taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you
think you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while
you were an eckist?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass
here.  I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on
this, as well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great
many years.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Thomas,

> >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives
that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?

Yes, I definitely did. There was a certain amount of healing during the
regression itself, but to be honest, most of the healing came later. To some
degree I feel that past life regressions most;y just stir up a lot of things,
make you aware of a past life that needs to be addressed, but then the
individual has to find some other way of healing it later. I guess you could
just continue to do more past life regressions, but that gets very expensive.

> >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead
and have a Life Between Lives experience?

I never heard of Life Between Lives when I was going to Janet in 1999-2000.
Maybe it was available, but I don't know. I don't think either of the other two
regressionists recommended it. I considered it, but never seemed to actually set
a priority to do it.

I read Janet's book "A Tribe Returned" which is about a past life she had where
she was a daughter of a plains Indian chief. Janet came to know a lot of people
who were living in that past life with her. The book describes in graphic detail
how the U. S soldiers killed the Indians, and its very traumatic to read. I
think there are many people who would not be able to get through it. I bought
the book directly from Janet.

I also read Janet's book about soul mates. I just tried to go to Janet's web
page. Somebody listed it as a malicious site, so it looks like the "do-gooders"
are out blocking New Age websites. The warning did say that third parties can
add malicious code so maybe that's what happened.

As a regressionist, I give Janet a 100% positive rating. But she is rather
famous, so she does charge more.

Feel free to ask more questions. Maybe it would be best if you joined my message
board, but until then I will probably cross-post these over there. And thanks
for reading my first posts; it was a lot of reading. Your interest will
encourage me to post more.

Jonathan


--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@...> wrote:
>
> Jonathan,
>        I just got back home and read:    Diary of Alan - Jan 2-20, 1999
> and  List of 58 Past lives
>      I have at least a dozen questions to ask you about all of this.   Thanks
for sharing these intimate details of your past lives with everyone in this
group.
>
> >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives
that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?
> >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead
and have a Life Between Lives experience?  Having a life review with the Council
and knowing your Incarnation Plan would seem to be the final step.   I read
where these experiences would be blocked if your spirit guide feels that you are
not ready to have this experience.
>
>     I read a preview of Janet Cunningham's book where a group of individual
souls incarnated at the same time.   Have you read it?   It is not in the book
stores.  I may have to order it online.
>
> Michael Newton has written 4 books.  His other two books are:
> >Life Between Lives: Hypnotherapy for Spiritual Regression
> >Memories of the Afterlife
> There are excerpts of these books on Google Books
> I especially liked Memories of the Afterlife because it contained stories of
PLRs from numerous hypnotherapists who are associated with his institute.
>
> If you don't mind, I will be asking you more questions about your PLRs.
> Thanks
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 2:15:25 PM
> Subject: [eckankartruth] My new "58 Past Lives" message board
>
>
> Thomas,
>
> Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
>
> I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
>
> From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your present
life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but I
believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
>
> From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan?"
> Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special, very
long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
>
> Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I did
have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
>
> Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The project got
tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there including a
simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last file that I
uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life regression. The PDF I
have is much better then the format of the post there, but I am still looking
for a good PDF creator.
>
> As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join, and
you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I
have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the
way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve
your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
>
> My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/58PastLIve s/
>
> I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I had to
think up something.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan,
> >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read the books
of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the training to
become a hypnotherapist.
> >
> > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression sessions.   
Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of
your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan.
> >
> > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to go
through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life agreements
I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my incarnation
plan is for my present incarnation.
> >
> > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past
lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first
incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much earlier
than that.
> > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be appreciated
> >
> > Thomas.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
> >
> > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> >
> >
> > Thomas Lee,
> >
> > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them on
this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I
believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> >
> > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a member
of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an ENTIRE
CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> >
> > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck masters
or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take on the
persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the time.
These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in the
sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> >
> > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> >
> > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past life
regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had extensive
experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar teaches, but
most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any chela does do
them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't match those
of Paul Twitchell's.
> >
> > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's
books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books
were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and
adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention
that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a
member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on
the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a
Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to
talk about them openly.
> >
> > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of time,
but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > >
> > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > >
> > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary for
complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's lifetime
> > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to seek
out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of unfoldment
> > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve all
of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.   Each of us has
at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > >
> > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > >
> > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about reincarnation
and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was spiritual heresy
because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of Eckankar teachings.
Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise the individual
salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching.  They are very
defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > >
> > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between Life, 
or Future Life Progression?
> > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your past
lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi zoey,
> > >
> > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I decided to
reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a
sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely sixteen, after finding
an eck book at age 14.
> > >
> > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I especially
feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the precious,
exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were going out
with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting up lectures
all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my first eck talk
to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds! Seriously!),
and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > >
> > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and
college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > >
> > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was
rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and
did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends
would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were
bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of
going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > >
> > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > >
> > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > >
> > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > >
> > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings
about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls
back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced
youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It
was exploitation.
> > >
> > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > >
> > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > >
> > > Peace,
> > >
> > > Leaf
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they feel
that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come from
people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > >
> > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those
years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken
up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you
would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were
an eckist?
> > > >
> > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > >
> > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as well.
I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many years.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

David,

Yes, based on personal observation, I do think the intense pining for god can
certainly become a detriment to a person's health and well being, and can become
a pathological influence. Any excessive fixation or obsession can become
pathological, if it leads to despair, depression, or a feeling of lack of
fulfillment. An obsession with god is not exempt from this observation.

If a person becomes unhappy, depressed, feeling like a failure, all because of a
pining for god or anything related to the quest (such as not having "soul
travel" experiences, not seeing fictional inner masters, not getting bogus
initiations, not getting the spiritual status others are getting, not
progressing), it certainly is not the healthiest approach. Eckankar often
exploits this, much to the detriment of some of its members. Eckankar teachings
are contradictory in many respects, in that it teaches to not seek on one hand,
and to pine away on the other. It gives or withholds rewards as a method of
control, which basically is a manipulation of the follower's strong desire for
god.

From this experience I have learned that a strong desire for god can push away
the very quality of the spiritual life people seek. So many people in eckankar
like to stress the importance of "learning from experience" and yet, when I
speak of what I have learned from my experience, they quibble with the basis of
my conclusions.

I know several friends who have reported to me they were often miserable in
eckankar, due to the enormous pressure and manipulation that is exerted on the
member to have phenomenal "experiences" and to achieve eckankar's notions of
"spiritual unfoldment" or "progress."  For many eckists, the resulting state of
discontent, the feeling of unfulfilled spiritual desires and the sense of
spiritual inadequacy can go on for years. This is not at all a beneficial
outcome, and it detracts from their enjoyment of life, which, in my view, is
antithetical to "spirituality."

I am aware of the various comments by Paul T., Klemp, and certain mystics, to
which you've alluded, that advise the need for intense desire to get close to
god, but I disagree with that notion. In my view, too much importance is put on
this, and it just drives away that which is being sought. And in fact, there are
philosophies that to a large degree share my view, such Buddhism and Taoism.

Generally, I really don't accept that engendering such a state of spiritual
anxiety is a natural state of being for people.

Religions, which are oriented to a personal god or pantheons of personified gods
(Hinduism, from which various yogic philosophies have derived, as well as Sant
Mat, from which eckankar largely derives, and Islam and related Sufism, have at
least some element of this), tend to promote having a personal relationship with
god as if god were an actual personification, and from this comes the notion of
a love affair with god, as if you are in love with an actual entity that is
separate from yourself.

On the other hand, Buddhists and especially Taoists and Zen Buddhists, for
example, don't usually speak of the quest in this manner, but instead try to
allow enlightenment to be realized more naturally, in a more effortless
approach. Those teachings don't actually believe in "god," but rather in the
"void," and in the indefinable "Tao," respectively.

But that aside, this is my opinion, based on my own experience. I disagree with
that approach, because I have observed how unhealthy and disruptive to
functional living and basic contentment it can be, and it obviously drives away
the very goal that is sought. For these reasons, among others, I won't be
signing up for membership in any Hindu or Sant Mat based path, or any other path
that believes in a personal god.

Speaking for myself only,

Leaf

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Tom,
>      You talk about the intense desire or pining after God as if it were some
kind of pathology, and I suppose that in many cases it can be.  Yet, in much of
the Hindu and Sufi sacred literature and poetry of the East, the divine quest
after God is described in precisely those terms - as that of a lover pining
after his or her Beloved.  I think that whether or not this kind of attitude and
approach will bring God closer or drive Him / IT away largely depends on the
inner temperament and personality makeup of the seeker, and also upon the
conditions and circumstances in operation at the time, I suppose.  Among modern
mystics, Paramahansa Yogananda use the intense longing and pining after God
quite successfully, as he records in his Autobiography of a Yogi. 
>                                               Blessings,
>                                                   David
>
> --- On Thu, 4/1/10, tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
> From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
> Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 10:33 PM
>
> Ingrid,
>
> That's very cool for you to say...
>
> You know, what you say makes sense. I think people can make themselves
miserable thinking they have to always be striving, striving, striving for god,
getting all worked up and sweaty about it, always on the edge of a subtle and
chronic desperation for god or spirit or whatevah; doing exercises, interpreting
their dreams, reading books, pining and desiring like some lost forlorn
lover....how silly, really. Sheesh, you would think it is hormonal!
>
> I think the answer creeps in slowly over time that none of this matters,
because you drive it away by wanting it so badly. Duh. Forget all about it, and
just sit on a porch, at dusk, watching the sunset, feeling the breeze through
the trees, and take a deep breath, effortlessly, and have a glass of good wine,
maybe, and life can be sooooo good, just sitting there, listening to the
crickets. (Eckists, I talking about the freakin' real life, physical plane
crickets, not the "inner" crickets, fer god's sake, get a grip).
>
> The best contemplation is the one you don't plan, the one you don't think of
as contemplation or meditation, the one that just happens, because it's just
life...and then it is the best moment ever, and you know it, and the moment
belongs to no one.
>
> Leaf, speakin' for me only.
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Leaf,
> >
> > I couldn't agree with you more! That's exactly how I feel too!
> > eckankar was, in this sense, a very good experience for me as I, as so many
others here, learned to not again be trapped in another cult.
> > I learned to take my life in my own hands and just enjoy it. I've never
understood people who say that they don't want to come back. Well, there are
certainly many who have a difficult life and I can understand why they wouldn't
want to come back. But people who basically lead a good life ...??
> >
> > Also, I don't use the words "spiritual" or "spirituality" any more since I
left eckankar because for me they don't mean anything any more.
> >
> > Everybody is different, which makes life so interesting! :-)
> > Ingrid
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Brother Thomas,
> > >
> > > I hope you can take this with a bit of humor and a grain of salt, but
regarding your comments about finding one's own path: for me there is no finding
anything within a "time frame" and there is no "spiritual goal."
> > >
> > > Hell, I'm not seeking anything whatsoever. Life is right here, man. I'm
not going anywhere, and I'm not looking for anything. Seriously.
> > >
> > > Leafeater (ate the leaf and left)
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Leaf,
> > > >      I agree that everyone must find their own path and within their own
time frame to achieve their spiritual goals.   Although I may still like some of
the spiritual teachings of Eckankar, I do not dwell on them and have moved far
beyond them.   See my other post for what I am doing now.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@>
> > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010 11:23:08 PM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >   
> > > > Thomas:
> > > >
> > > > I am not at all going to try to talk you out of your spiritual beliefs,
which are personal to each individual. If your beliefs are that the eckankar
experience was "another step in unfoldment," that is fine.
> > > >
> > > > As to me, after leaving eckankar, I find myself free of most of my
former beliefs, with the exception of some very basic, non-theistic views that
are similar if not equivalent to early Taoism, which I happen to enjoy. Taoists
don't believe in a sentient, personal god, but instead in an undefinable unity
or "way." Casting off of religious belief systems has been one of the most
profoundly liberating and uplifting experiences of my life.
> > > >
> > > > Please don't assume that all ex-eckists continue following combinations
of Hindu/Sant Mat (or even Buddhist) forms of thought. These are belief systems
that some of us may no longer entirely embrace to the extent we once did. There
is a lot of variance of beliefs among former eckists, thankfully.
> > > >
> > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum. Wouldn't it would be a shame if we were
ALL expected to still believe most of which eckankar teaches, as if we were
still all marching in lockstep like good little eckists? One of the most
important realizations I have had from the eckankar experience is the right to
give myself the basic freedom to be find my own authentic way, without
succumbing to the judgments of people who feel the need to admonish or
invalidate me if I don't agree with their belief systems.
> > > >
> > > > I completely support you exploring the path you create for yourself
after leaving eckankar. It would be a tragedy if, after having left eckankar, we
all remained the same as before, all feeling pressured to think alike, and
arguing over platitudes just as before.
> > > >
> > > > Don't you agree?
> > > >
> > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary
for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's
lifetime
> > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve
all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.   Each of us
has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > >
> > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > >
> > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between
Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > >
> > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and
college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix
was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes,
and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage
friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents
were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead
of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > >
> > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > >
> > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings
about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls
back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced
youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It
was exploitation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > >
> > > > > Peace,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they
feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come
from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those
years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken
up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you
would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were
an eckist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

David,

I understand your point, but in eckankar, the concept of devotion was clearly
exploited. If my library was available (I've put the eck books back into
storage) I could provide an abundance of quotes that implore the eck student to
pine after god, and all sorts of punishments and judgements to the wavering
follower who "fails" to stay the course. Eckankar, as usual, talks out of both
sides of its mouth, using a mixed message which can serve to keep followers in a
state of confusion.

The Shariyat is full of imploring rhetoric about the need for complete surrender
and unwavering devotion and love for the Mahanta, as well as various necessary
disciplines, and warnings of what happens to the student who fails to obey. This
is in no way compatible with Wu Wei or the "law of reversed effort," which
suggests these disciplines are not always required for everyone, and certainly
all the guilt mongering and dire warnings are not at all conducive to the
natural free flow implied by "reversed effort."

While some degree of personality differences may come into play, it is
nevertheless exploitive and detrimental to many, in my experience. People who
find the required unthinking and unquestioning submission compatible to their
personalities may not mind, but this is not a good reason to ignore that the
approach is used as a form of control and manipulation, as do many cults and
religions. The coercion is built into the system.

Yogananda's organization, by the way, has generated similar controversies.

Paul Twitchell did indeed write about the Law of Reversed Effort, which was
partly popularized in America by Alan Watts, among other writers, but the actual
phrase was coined by  Emile Coue', a French man born in 1857 who was a
pharmacist and later, a hypnotherapist. In Coue's use of the phrase, it actually
pertains to hypnotic coercion! PT's usage of the phrase is obviously more in
line with Watts'.

Of course, Twitchell doesn't credit the source:

Quote: "Emile Coue's Law of Reversed Effort"

"Coue' was a French man who was born in 1857 and died in 1926 at the age of 69.
He originally trained as a pharmacist and graduated in 1826. He was considered a
brilliant student. Coue' noticed that in certain instances he could improve the
efficacy of a medicine, simply by praising its effectiveness to the patient. He
noticed that those patients to whom he praised the medicine had a marked
improvement over those patients to whom he said nothing. This began Emile Coue's
journey into the use of hypnosis and the power of the imagination and along with
his wife Nancy Lemorine he went on to found the Nancy School of Hypnosis." End
quote

http://www.iaph.org/articles_coue.html

Sound familiar?

Alan Watt's brought the expression into his Zen and Taoist writings, since Wu
Wei, or "no action," is very well expressed by the phrase.

In fact, I have discovered several famous quotes from the Shariyat that PT
plagiarized from Watts' writings.

But I digress...

Leaf



--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...> wrote:
>
> Tom,
>      Very eloquently put response, and very descriptive of your own inner
perspective, experience and feelings.  Undoubtedly, there are many people for
whom the pining approach doesn't work, and definitely it can cause the anxiety,
dissatisfaction with life, and maladjustment that you speak of. 
>      But there are other people, like Yogananda, for whom the pining approach
does work.  This is not to invalidate any of your observations, but I think that
it's definitely a matter of one's own inner spiritual nature and temperament. 
The same approach will not work for everyone. 
>      The social dynamics regarding spiritual experiences that happen withing
the Eckankar organization that you have described are quite accurate, I feel,
and a source of much trouble and maladjustment.  But Paul Twitchell writes about
the Law of Reversed Effort in his books, which is like the Zen or Taoist
approach you favor.  Stop pushing; the door to the spiritual worlds opens
inwardly.  But we all know that what people actually do, and the social dynamics
that goes on within the organization, can be at considerable variance with what
is written in the books. 
>                                            May the Eckless Blessings Be,
>                                                  David
>
> --- On Fri, 4/2/10, tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
> From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
> Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 11:10 AM
>
> David,
>
> Yes, based on personal observation, I do think the intense pining for god can
certainly become a detriment to a person's health and well being, and can become
a pathological influence. Any excessive fixation or obsession can become
pathological, if it leads to despair, depression, or a feeling of lack of
fulfillment. An obsession with god is not exempt from this observation.
>
> If a person becomes unhappy, depressed, feeling like a failure, all because of
a pining for god or anything related to the quest (such as not having "soul
travel" experiences, not seeing fictional inner masters, not getting bogus
initiations, not getting the spiritual status others are getting, not
progressing), it certainly is not the healthiest approach. Eckankar often
exploits this, much to the detriment of some of its members. Eckankar teachings
are contradictory in many respects, in that it teaches to not seek on one hand,
and to pine away on the other. It gives or withholds rewards as a method of
control, which basically is a manipulation of the follower's strong desire for
god.
>
> From this experience I have learned that a strong desire for god can push away
the very quality of the spiritual life people seek. So many people in eckankar
like to stress the importance of "learning from experience" and yet, when I
speak of what I have learned from my experience, they quibble with the basis of
my conclusions.
>
> I know several friends who have reported to me they were often miserable in
eckankar, due to the enormous pressure and manipulation that is exerted on the
member to have phenomenal "experiences" and to achieve eckankar's notions of
"spiritual unfoldment" or "progress."  For many eckists, the resulting state of
discontent, the feeling of unfulfilled spiritual desires and the sense of
spiritual inadequacy can go on for years. This is not at all a beneficial
outcome, and it detracts from their enjoyment of life, which, in my view, is
antithetical to "spirituality."
>
> I am aware of the various comments by Paul T., Klemp, and certain mystics, to
which you've alluded, that advise the need for intense desire to get close to
god, but I disagree with that notion. In my view, too much importance is put on
this, and it just drives away that which is being sought. And in fact, there are
philosophies that to a large degree share my view, such Buddhism and Taoism.
>
> Generally, I really don't accept that engendering such a state of spiritual
anxiety is a natural state of being for people.
>
> Religions, which are oriented to a personal god or pantheons of personified
gods (Hinduism, from which various yogic philosophies have derived, as well as
Sant Mat, from which eckankar largely derives, and Islam and related Sufism,
have at least some element of this), tend to promote having a personal
relationship with god as if god were an actual personification, and from this
comes the notion of a love affair with god, as if you are in love with an actual
entity that is separate from yourself.
>
> On the other hand, Buddhists and especially Taoists and Zen Buddhists, for
example, don't usually speak of the quest in this manner, but instead try to
allow enlightenment to be realized more naturally, in a more effortless
approach. Those teachings don't actually believe in "god," but rather in the
"void," and in the indefinable "Tao," respectively.
>
> But that aside, this is my opinion, based on my own experience. I disagree
with that approach, because I have observed how unhealthy and disruptive to
functional living and basic contentment it can be, and it obviously drives away
the very goal that is sought. For these reasons, among others, I won't be
signing up for membership in any Hindu or Sant Mat based path, or any other path
that believes in a personal god.
>
> Speaking for myself only,
>
> Leaf
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Tom,
> >      You talk about the intense desire or pining after God as if it were
some kind of pathology, and I suppose that in many cases it can be.  Yet, in
much of the Hindu and Sufi sacred literature and poetry of the East, the divine
quest after God is described in precisely those terms - as that of a lover
pining after his or her Beloved.  I think that whether or not this kind of
attitude and approach will bring God closer or drive Him / IT away largely
depends on the inner temperament and personality makeup of the seeker, and also
upon the conditions and circumstances in operation at the time, I suppose. 
Among modern mystics, Paramahansa Yogananda use the intense longing and pining
after God quite successfully, as he records in his Autobiography of a Yogi. 
> >                                               Blessings,
> >                                                   David
> >
> > --- On Thu, 4/1/10, tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
> >
> > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@>
> > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 10:33 PM
> >
> > Ingrid,
> >
> > That's very cool for you to say...
> >
> > You know, what you say makes sense. I think people can make themselves
miserable thinking they have to always be striving, striving, striving for god,
getting all worked up and sweaty about it, always on the edge of a subtle and
chronic desperation for god or spirit or whatevah; doing exercises, interpreting
their dreams, reading books, pining and desiring like some lost forlorn
lover....how silly, really. Sheesh, you would think it is hormonal!
> >
> > I think the answer creeps in slowly over time that none of this matters,
because you drive it away by wanting it so badly. Duh. Forget all about it, and
just sit on a porch, at dusk, watching the sunset, feeling the breeze through
the trees, and take a deep breath, effortlessly, and have a glass of good wine,
maybe, and life can be sooooo good, just sitting there, listening to the
crickets. (Eckists, I talking about the freakin' real life, physical plane
crickets, not the "inner" crickets, fer god's sake, get a grip).
> >
> > The best contemplation is the one you don't plan, the one you don't think of
as contemplation or meditation, the one that just happens, because it's just
life...and then it is the best moment ever, and you know it, and the moment
belongs to no one.
> >
> > Leaf, speakin' for me only.
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Leaf,
> > >
> > > I couldn't agree with you more! That's exactly how I feel too!
> > > eckankar was, in this sense, a very good experience for me as I, as so
many others here, learned to not again be trapped in another cult.
> > > I learned to take my life in my own hands and just enjoy it. I've never
understood people who say that they don't want to come back. Well, there are
certainly many who have a difficult life and I can understand why they wouldn't
want to come back. But people who basically lead a good life ...??
> > >
> > > Also, I don't use the words "spiritual" or "spirituality" any more since I
left eckankar because for me they don't mean anything any more.
> > >
> > > Everybody is different, which makes life so interesting! :-)
> > > Ingrid
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Brother Thomas,
> > > >
> > > > I hope you can take this with a bit of humor and a grain of salt, but
regarding your comments about finding one's own path: for me there is no finding
anything within a "time frame" and there is no "spiritual goal."
> > > >
> > > > Hell, I'm not seeking anything whatsoever. Life is right here, man. I'm
not going anywhere, and I'm not looking for anything. Seriously.
> > > >
> > > > Leafeater (ate the leaf and left)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf,
> > > > >      I agree that everyone must find their own path and within their
own time frame to achieve their spiritual goals.   Although I may still like
some of the spiritual teachings of Eckankar, I do not dwell on them and have
moved far beyond them.   See my other post for what I am doing now.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@>
> > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010 11:23:08 PM
> > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > >
> > > > >   
> > > > > Thomas:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not at all going to try to talk you out of your spiritual
beliefs, which are personal to each individual. If your beliefs are that the
eckankar experience was "another step in unfoldment," that is fine.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to me, after leaving eckankar, I find myself free of most of my
former beliefs, with the exception of some very basic, non-theistic views that
are similar if not equivalent to early Taoism, which I happen to enjoy. Taoists
don't believe in a sentient, personal god, but instead in an undefinable unity
or "way." Casting off of religious belief systems has been one of the most
profoundly liberating and uplifting experiences of my life.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please don't assume that all ex-eckists continue following
combinations of Hindu/Sant Mat (or even Buddhist) forms of thought. These are
belief systems that some of us may no longer entirely embrace to the extent we
once did. There is a lot of variance of beliefs among former eckists,
thankfully.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum. Wouldn't it would be a shame if we were
ALL expected to still believe most of which eckankar teaches, as if we were
still all marching in lockstep like good little eckists? One of the most
important realizations I have had from the eckankar experience is the right to
give myself the basic freedom to be find my own authentic way, without
succumbing to the judgments of people who feel the need to admonish or
invalidate me if I don't agree with their belief systems.
> > > > >
> > > > > I completely support you exploring the path you create for yourself
after leaving eckankar. It would be a tragedy if, after having left eckankar, we
all remained the same as before, all feeling pressured to think alike, and
arguing over platitudes just as before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't you agree?
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary
for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's
lifetime
> > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to
resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for
himself.   Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between
Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I
decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met
Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely
sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school
and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix
was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes,
and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage
friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents
were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead
of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic
teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to
bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive,
inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need
and space. It was exploitation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Peace,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leaf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they
feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come
from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw
those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have
taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think
you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you
were an eckist?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Paul Brunton wrote:

    "No guru can lead anyone to enlightenment
if he himself is attached to the role of guru, nor
can any disciple ever achieve enlightenment if
he wants to play the role of disciple forever. Both
are suffering from attachments which prevent
enlightenment." [....]

(Notebooks, Vol. 2, 6.590; Vol. 16, Part 1, 5.285-
286; Vol. 2, 6.859)

http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/santmat1.html

Found that page a while back, but hadn't read
a whole lot of Brunton's work before then. His
name was mentioned by Paul & Harold, I think.
Harold mentioned the name in 1984, I believe,
when talking about the The Inner-Plane Library
System (quote):

"There are very few writers who can come to this
library. Most of the writers from earth go to the
branch libraries, so they don't get to use the best
sources. But the good researchers—such as Paul,
Julian Johnson, Paul Brunton, and others—can
come in here and select the paragraphs that suit
their audience. A certain key concept will be ex-
pressed, such as a certain aspect of spiritual lib-
eration. Then this one idea is written in eight diff-
erent paragraphs, reflecting eight different levels
of consciousness."

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

There are numerous quotes by Brunton on that
page I mentioned earlier. And I thought that quote
tby Brunton ouched on the topic of discussion
here. So I shared.

Etznab





-----Original Message-----
From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 2, 2010 12:33 am
Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life

 
Ingrid,

That's very cool for you to say...

You know, what you say makes sense. I think people can make themselves
miserable thinking they have to always be striving, striving, striving
for god, getting all worked up and sweaty about it, always on the edge
of a subtle and chronic desperation for god or spirit or whatevah;
doing exercises, interpreting their dreams, reading books, pining and
desiring like some lost forlorn lover....how silly, really. Sheesh, you
would think it is hormonal!

I think the answer creeps in slowly over time that none of this
matters, because you drive it away by wanting it so badly. Duh. Forget
all about it, and just sit on a porch, at dusk, watching the sunset,
feeling the breeze through the trees, and take a deep breath,
effortlessly, and have a glass of good wine, maybe, and life can be
sooooo good, just sitting there, listening to the crickets. (Eckists, I
talking about the freakin' real life, physical plane crickets, not the
"inner" crickets, fer god's sake, get a grip).

The best contemplation is the one you don't plan, the one you don't
think of as contemplation or meditation, the one that just happens,
because it's just life...and then it is the best moment ever, and you
know it, and the moment belongs to no one.

Leaf, speakin' for me only.

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Leaf,
>
> I couldn't agree with you more! That's exactly how I feel too!
> eckankar was, in this sense, a very good experience for me as I,
as so many others here, learned to not again be trapped in another cult.
> I learned to take my life in my own hands and just enjoy it. I've
never understood people who say that they don't want to come back.
Well, there are certainly many who have a difficult life and I can
understand why they wouldn't want to come back. But people who
basically lead a good life ...??
>
> Also, I don't use the words "spiritual" or "spirituality" any more
since I left eckankar because for me they don't mean anything any more.
>
> Everybody is different, which makes life so interesting! :-)
> Ingrid
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
<tianyue@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Brother Thomas,
> >
> > I hope you can take this with a bit of humor and a grain of
salt, but regarding your comments about finding one's own path: for me
there is no finding anything within a "time frame" and there is no
"spiritual goal."
> >
> > Hell, I'm not seeking anything whatsoever. Life is right
here, man. I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not looking for anything.
Seriously.
> >
> > Leafeater (ate the leaf and left)
> >
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee
<thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Leaf,
> > >      I agree that everyone must find their own path and
within their own time frame to achieve their spiritual goals.
Although I may still like some of the spiritual teachings of Eckankar,
I do not dwell on them and have moved far beyond them.   See my other
post for what I am doing now.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@>
> > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010 11:23:08 PM
> > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas:
> > >
> > > I am not at all going to try to talk you out of your
spiritual beliefs, which are personal to each individual. If your
beliefs are that the eckankar experience was "another step in
unfoldment," that is fine.
> > >
> > > As to me, after leaving eckankar, I find myself free of
most of my former beliefs, with the exception of some very basic,
non-theistic views that are similar if not equivalent to early Taoism,
which I happen to enjoy. Taoists don't believe in a sentient, personal
god, but instead in an undefinable unity or "way." Casting off of
religious belief systems has been one of the most profoundly liberating
and uplifting experiences of my life.
> > >
> > > Please don't assume that all ex-eckists continue
following combinations of Hindu/Sant Mat (or even Buddhist) forms of
thought. These are belief systems that some of us may no longer
entirely embrace to the extent we once did. There is a lot of variance
of beliefs among former eckists, thankfully.
> > >
> > > This is an ex-eckankar forum. Wouldn't it would be a
shame if we were ALL expected to still believe most of which eckankar
teaches, as if we were still all marching in lockstep like good little
eckists? One of the most important realizations I have had from the
eckankar experience is the right to give myself the basic freedom to be
find my own authentic way, without succumbing to the judgments of
people who feel the need to admonish or invalidate me if I don't agree
with their belief systems.
> > >
> > > I completely support you exploring the path you create
for yourself after leaving eckankar. It would be a tragedy if, after
having left eckankar, we all remained the same as before, all feeling
pressured to think alike, and arguing over platitudes just as before.
> > >
> > > Don't you agree?
> > >
> > > Speaking for myself only,
> > >
> > > Leaf
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee
<thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel
it was a waste of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual
unfoldment.
> > > >
> > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking
a spiritual path:
> > > >
> > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the
spiritual truths necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the
individual during the individual's lifetime
> > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the
individual would need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the
individual's next level of unfoldment
> > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not
necessary to resolve all of your karmic issues.   The individual must
do it for himself.   Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist
us.
> > > >
> > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?
   We were told to destroy all of his books and recordings because the
spiritual energy in his works were gone.   This is similar to a new
dictator who destroys the works and persona of his predecessor in order
to maintain control.      Everyone loved Paul's books.  Not only did
they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great storyteller.
> > > >
> > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking
questions about reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The
moderator felt it was spiritual heresy because some of the facts
mentioned was outside the realm of Eckankar teachings.   Every
spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise the individual
salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching.  They
are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their
teaching.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life
Regression,  Life Between Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all
issues about your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi zoey,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this
site, but I decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28
years, met Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when
I was barely sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > >
> > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in
eckankar. I especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could
have been the precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties.
While other kids were going out with friends and having fun, I was
going to eck meetings and setting up lectures all over my area in San
Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my first eck talk to a large crowd
at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds! Seriously!), and set up
countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even
put off school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders
tried to steer me in a better direction.
> > > >
> > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies,
when Jimi Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted
the nerdy eckankar clothes, and did nothing with my life other than
spread eckankar. My former teenage friends would look at what I had
become and shake their heads. Even my parents were bewildered, thinking
I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of going to eck
events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism, some of
whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > >
> > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of
normal personal development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of
catching up to do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > >
> > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example,
almost all of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my
friends seemed to have nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no
longer the common link between us.
> > > >
> > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in
eckankar hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > >
> > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the
hyperbolic teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta
resurgent in the world to bring souls back to god. It seems so
overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced youth that it
takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It was
exploitation.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea.
Eckankar is one of several cults that were around at the time when I
was young. It's possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have
joined another similar group, like TM or Scientology, both of which I
was familiar with. But either way, it's good to get the word out how
any of these groups should be approached carefully, especially by kids.
They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > >
> > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey"
<zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who
indicate that they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.
   These posts typically come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+
years.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that
you simply threw those years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do
you think you would have taken up with a different path or group,
perhaps something better?  Do you think you would have made different
life decisions than the ones you made while you were an eckist?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a
smart-ass here.  I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's
opinion on this, as well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in
eckankar for a great many years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

There's that word again. God.

It's probably true that human nature has a
tendency to pine for God described to them
by others. And I don't necessarily see much
problem with that, so long as a person has
the liberty to experience God for their self.
And have a way to verify the stories told to
them by others. And to learn how well "The
Gods" were telling the truth.

Stories of God have existed for centuries. I
think the great danger of these is when a
story and its history are changed, taken out
of context and more or less pseudofied, for
one reason or another.

A person who depends on such stories may
be in for a great loss to find out they were so
much fiction, myth, etc. and not literal truths.
It can leave a person empty, IMO, unless the
truth of God had actually come to them. If it
did and the experience did not agree with
the story of God according to one's religion,
church, or priest ... that too can present loss.
Loss of finding God by one's own self, not to
mention the loss of finding God in one's own
religion.

Either way, it all seems to lead back to the
self anyway.

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 2, 2010 1:10 pm
Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life

 
David,

Yes, based on personal observation, I do think the intense pining for
god can certainly become a detriment to a person's health and well
being, and can become a pathological influence. Any excessive fixation
or obsession can become pathological, if it leads to despair,
depression, or a feeling of lack of fulfillment. An obsession with god
is not exempt from this observation.

If a person becomes unhappy, depressed, feeling like a failure, all
because of a pining for god or anything related to the quest (such as
not having "soul travel" experiences, not seeing fictional inner
masters, not getting bogus initiations, not getting the spiritual
status others are getting, not progressing), it certainly is not the
healthiest approach. Eckankar often exploits this, much to the
detriment of some of its members. Eckankar teachings are contradictory
in many respects, in that it teaches to not seek on one hand, and to
pine away on the other. It gives or withholds rewards as a method of
control, which basically is a manipulation of the follower's strong
desire for god.

  From this experience I have learned that a strong desire for god can
push away the very quality of the spiritual life people seek. So many
people in eckankar like to stress the importance of "learning from
experience" and yet, when I speak of what I have learned from my
experience, they quibble with the basis of my conclusions.

I know several friends who have reported to me they were often
miserable in eckankar, due to the enormous pressure and manipulation
that is exerted on the member to have phenomenal "experiences" and to
achieve eckankar's notions of "spiritual unfoldment" or "progress."
For many eckists, the resulting state of discontent, the feeling of
unfulfilled spiritual desires and the sense of spiritual inadequacy can
go on for years. This is not at all a beneficial outcome, and it
detracts from their enjoyment of life, which, in my view, is
antithetical to "spirituality."

I am aware of the various comments by Paul T., Klemp, and certain
mystics, to which you've alluded, that advise the need for intense
desire to get close to god, but I disagree with that notion. In my
view, too much importance is put on this, and it just drives away that
which is being sought. And in fact, there are philosophies that to a
large degree share my view, such Buddhism and Taoism.

Generally, I really don't accept that engendering such a state of
spiritual anxiety is a natural state of being for people.

Religions, which are oriented to a personal god or pantheons of
personified gods (Hinduism, from which various yogic philosophies have
derived, as well as Sant Mat, from which eckankar largely derives, and
Islam and related Sufism, have at least some element of this), tend to
promote having a personal relationship with god as if god were an
actual personification, and from this comes the notion of a love affair
with god, as if you are in love with an actual entity that is separate
from yourself.

On the other hand, Buddhists and especially Taoists and Zen Buddhists,
for example, don't usually speak of the quest in this manner, but
instead try to allow enlightenment to be realized more naturally, in a
more effortless approach. Those teachings don't actually believe in
"god," but rather in the "void," and in the indefinable "Tao,"
respectively.

But that aside, this is my opinion, based on my own experience. I
disagree with that approach, because I have observed how unhealthy and
disruptive to functional living and basic contentment it can be, and it
obviously drives away the very goal that is sought. For these reasons,
among others, I won't be signing up for membership in any Hindu or Sant
Mat based path, or any other path that believes in a personal god.

Speaking for myself only,

Leaf

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn
<panfluteman2000@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Tom,
>      You talk about the intense desire or pining after God as if
it were some kind of pathology, and I suppose that in many cases it can
be.  Yet, in much of the Hindu and Sufi sacred literature and poetry of
the East, the divine quest after God is described in precisely those
terms - as that of a lover pining after his or her Beloved.  I think
that whether or not this kind of attitude and approach will bring God
closer or drive Him / IT away largely depends on the inner temperament
and personality makeup of the seeker, and also upon the conditions and
circumstances in operation at the time, I suppose.  Among modern
mystics, Paramahansa Yogananda use the intense longing and pining after
God quite successfully, as he records in his Autobiography of a Yogi. 
>
                                        \
      Blessings,
>
                                        \
          David
>
> --- On Thu, 4/1/10, tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
> From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
> Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 10:33 PM
>
> Ingrid,
>
> That's very cool for you to say...
>
> You know, what you say makes sense. I think people can make
themselves miserable thinking they have to always be striving,
striving, striving for god, getting all worked up and sweaty about it,
always on the edge of a subtle and chronic desperation for god or
spirit or whatevah; doing exercises, interpreting their dreams, reading
books, pining and desiring like some lost forlorn lover....how silly,
really. Sheesh, you would think it is hormonal!
>
> I think the answer creeps in slowly over time that none of this
matters, because you drive it away by wanting it so badly. Duh. Forget
all about it, and just sit on a porch, at dusk, watching the sunset,
feeling the breeze through the trees, and take a deep breath,
effortlessly, and have a glass of good wine, maybe, and life can be
sooooo good, just sitting there, listening to the crickets. (Eckists, I
talking about the freakin' real life, physical plane crickets, not the
"inner" crickets, fer god's sake, get a grip).
>
> The best contemplation is the one you don't plan, the one you
don't think of as contemplation or meditation, the one that just
happens, because it's just life...and then it is the best moment ever,
and you know it, and the moment belongs to no one.
>
> Leaf, speakin' for me only.
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@>
wrote:
> >
> > Hi Leaf,
> >
> > I couldn't agree with you more! That's exactly how I feel too!
> > eckankar was, in this sense, a very good experience for me as
I, as so many others here, learned to not again be trapped in another
cult.
> > I learned to take my life in my own hands and just enjoy it.
I've never understood people who say that they don't want to come back.
Well, there are certainly many who have a difficult life and I can
understand why they wouldn't want to come back. But people who
basically lead a good life ...??
> >
> > Also, I don't use the words "spiritual" or "spirituality" any
more since I left eckankar because for me they don't mean anything any
more.
> >
> > Everybody is different, which makes life so interesting! :-)
> > Ingrid
> > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
<tianyue@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Brother Thomas,
> > >
> > > I hope you can take this with a bit of humor and a grain
of salt, but regarding your comments about finding one's own path: for
me there is no finding anything within a "time frame" and there is no
"spiritual goal."
> > >
> > > Hell, I'm not seeking anything whatsoever. Life is right
here, man. I'm not going anywhere, and I'm not looking for anything.
Seriously.
> > >
> > > Leafeater (ate the leaf and left)
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee
<thomaslee40@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Leaf,
> > > >      I agree that everyone must find their own path
and within their own time frame to achieve their spiritual
goals.   Although I may still like some of the spiritual teachings of
Eckankar, I do not dwell on them and have moved far beyond them.   See
my other post for what I am doing now.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@>
> > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Mon, March 29, 2010 11:23:08 PM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >   
> > > > Thomas:
> > > >
> > > > I am not at all going to try to talk you out of
your spiritual beliefs, which are personal to each individual. If your
beliefs are that the eckankar experience was "another step in
unfoldment," that is fine.
> > > >
> > > > As to me, after leaving eckankar, I find myself
free of most of my former beliefs, with the exception of some very
basic, non-theistic views that are similar if not equivalent to early
Taoism, which I happen to enjoy. Taoists don't believe in a sentient,
personal god, but instead in an undefinable unity or "way." Casting off
of religious belief systems has been one of the most profoundly
liberating and uplifting experiences of my life.
> > > >
> > > > Please don't assume that all ex-eckists continue
following combinations of Hindu/Sant Mat (or even Buddhist) forms of
thought. These are belief systems that some of us may no longer
entirely embrace to the extent we once did. There is a lot of variance
of beliefs among former eckists, thankfully.
> > > >
> > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum. Wouldn't it would be
a shame if we were ALL expected to still believe most of which eckankar
teaches, as if we were still all marching in lockstep like good little
eckists? One of the most important realizations I have had from the
eckankar experience is the right to give myself the basic freedom to be
find my own authentic way, without succumbing to the judgments of
people who feel the need to admonish or invalidate me if I don't agree
with their belief systems.
> > > >
> > > > I completely support you exploring the path you
create for yourself after leaving eckankar. It would be a tragedy if,
after having left eckankar, we all remained the same as before, all
feeling pressured to think alike, and arguing over platitudes just as
before.
> > > >
> > > > Don't you agree?
> > > >
> > > > Speaking for myself only,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee
<thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not
feel it was a waste of time, but rather just another step in my
spiritual unfoldment.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual
seeking a spiritual path:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual
truth.
> > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the
spiritual truths necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the
individual during the individual's lifetime
> > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the
individual would need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the
individual's next level of unfoldment
> > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they
are not necessary to resolve all of your karmic issues.   The
individual must do it for himself.   Each of us has at least one spirit
guide to assist us.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck
Master?   We were told to destroy all of his books and recordings
because the spiritual energy in his works were gone.   This is similar
to a new dictator who destroys the works and persona of his predecessor
in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved Paul's books.  Not
only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great storyteller.
> > > > >
> > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking
questions about reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The
moderator felt it was spiritual heresy because some of the facts
mentioned was outside the realm of Eckankar teachings.   Every
spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise the individual
salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching.  They
are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their
teaching.
> > > > >
> > > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life
Regression,  Life Between Life,  or Future Life Progression?
> > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve
all issues about your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi zoey,
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on
this site, but I decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar
for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a
member when I was barely sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
> > > > >
> > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was
wasted in eckankar. I especially feel as if I missed the experience of
what could have been the precious, exciting years of my teens and early
twenties. While other kids were going out with friends and having fun,
I was going to eck meetings and setting up lectures all over my area in
San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my first eck talk to a large
crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds! Seriously!), and
set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I
even put off school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the
leaders tried to steer me in a better direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early
seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair,
adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and did nothing with my life other
than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends would look at what I
had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were bewildered,
thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of going
to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like
Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > > >
> > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other
areas of normal personal development were ignored and neglected. I had
a lot of catching up to do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > > >
> > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For
example, almost all of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I
left, my friends seemed to have nothing in common with me, since
eckankar was no longer the common link between us.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my
time in eckankar hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from
the hyperbolic teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta
resurgent in the world to bring souls back to god. It seems so
overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced youth that it
takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It was
exploitation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the
idea. Eckankar is one of several cults that were around at the time
when I was young. It's possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I
would have joined another similar group, like TM or Scientology, both
of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to get the word
out how any of these groups should be approached carefully, especially
by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > > >
> > > > > Peace,
> > > > >
> > > > > Leaf
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey"
<zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters
here who indicate that they feel that their years in eckankar were
'lost' years.  These posts typically come from people who were
long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way -
that you simply threw those years away?  If you had never found
eckankar, do you think you would have taken up with a different path or
group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you would have made
different life decisions than the ones you made while you were an
eckist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not
being a smart-ass here.  I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone
else's opinion on this, as well.  I am mainly talking to people who
were in eckankar for a great many years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Thomas,

I didn't mention it to either person. I barely knew Melissa, and Les would be
too narrow-minded. At times it was very difficult not being able to share
anything, but that is the way it was.

I had one friend that was open-minded about past lives and many other things. I
told him that I knew about several of mine, but he didn't show up in any of them
yet. I asked him whether he would like to know if he does. He said "Yes." But he
never showed up.

Alan

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@...> wrote:
>
> Jonathan,
>     In your PLR, you stated that your husband and daughter in your previous
life had incarnated with you as Les and Melissa in your present life.   I
realize that it would be awkward to discuss past lives with someone who does not
believe in it.    I presume that you had not mentioned this to Melissa.  
However, since you and Les were childhood friends, did you talk to him about
your PLR?
>
> Your relationship with Melissa is similar to what happened in the movie
Chances Are.    Mary Stuart Masterson  plays the role of Miranda whose father
died in a accident.   Robert Downey Jr plays the role of Alex who is a young
college graduate.  He meets Miranda while working in a library.   Later, he
meets her again when he comes to Wash DC to look for a job.   By chance, he ends
up in the home of Miranda and her mom.   He begins to fall in love with Miranda,
but before the relationship can develop, he begins to have flashbacks that he
was her father in his previous life.   If you have not already seen this movie,
I think you will enjoy it.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 8:12:15 AM
> Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: My new "58 Past Lives" message board
>
>
> Thomas,
>
> > >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives
that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?
>
> Yes, I definitely did. There was a certain amount of healing during the
regression itself, but to be honest, most of the healing came later. To some
degree I feel that past life regressions most;y just stir up a lot of things,
make you aware of a past life that needs to be addressed, but then the
individual has to find some other way of healing it later. I guess you could
just continue to do more past life regressions, but that gets very expensive.
>
> > >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead
and have a Life Between Lives experience?
>
> I never heard of Life Between Lives when I was going to Janet in 1999-2000.
Maybe it was available, but I don't know. I don't think either of the other two
regressionists recommended it. I considered it, but never seemed to actually set
a priority to do it.
>
> I read Janet's book "A Tribe Returned" which is about a past life she had
where she was a daughter of a plains Indian chief. Janet came to know a lot of
people who were living in that past life with her. The book describes in graphic
detail how the U. S soldiers killed the Indians, and its very traumatic to read.
I think there are many people who would not be able to get through it. I bought
the book directly from Janet.
>
> I also read Janet's book about soul mates. I just tried to go to Janet's web
page. Somebody listed it as a malicious site, so it looks like the "do-gooders"
are out blocking New Age websites. The warning did say that third parties can
add malicious code so maybe that's what happened.
>
> As a regressionist, I give Janet a 100% positive rating. But she is rather
famous, so she does charge more.
>
> Feel free to ask more questions. Maybe it would be best if you joined my
message board, but until then I will probably cross-post these over there. And
thanks for reading my first posts; it was a lot of reading. Your interest will
encourage me to post more.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan,
> >        I just got back home and read:    Diary of Alan - Jan 2-20, 1999
> > and  List of 58 Past lives
> >      I have at least a dozen questions to ask you about all of this.  
Thanks for sharing these intimate details of your past lives with everyone in
this group.
> >
> > >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives
that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?
> > >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead
and have a Life Between Lives experience?  Having a life review with the Council
and knowing your Incarnation Plan would seem to be the final step.   I read
where these experiences would be blocked if your spirit guide feels that you are
not ready to have this experience.
> >
> >     I read a preview of Janet Cunningham's book where a group of individual
souls incarnated at the same time.   Have you read it?   It is not in the book
stores.  I may have to order it online.
> >
> > Michael Newton has written 4 books.  His other two books are:
> > >Life Between Lives: Hypnotherapy for Spiritual Regression
> > >Memories of the Afterlife
> > There are excerpts of these books on Google Books
> > I especially liked Memories of the Afterlife because it contained stories of
PLRs from numerous hypnotherapists who are associated with his institute.
> >
> > If you don't mind, I will be asking you more questions about your PLRs.
> > Thanks
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
> > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 2:15:25 PM
> > Subject: [eckankartruth] My new "58 Past Lives" message board
> >
> >
> > Thomas,
> >
> > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> >
> > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> >
> > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but I
believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> >
> > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan?"
> > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special, very
long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
> >
> > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I did
have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> >
> > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The project
got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there including a
simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last file that I
uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life regression. The PDF I
have is much better then the format of the post there, but I am still looking
for a good PDF creator.
> >
> > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join, and
you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I
have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the
way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve
your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> >
> > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/58PastLIve s/
> >
> > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I had
to think up something.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jonathan,
> > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read the
books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > >
> > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression sessions.
Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of
your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan.
> > >
> > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to go
through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life agreements
I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my incarnation
plan is for my present incarnation.
> > >
> > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past
lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first
incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much earlier
than that.
> > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be appreciated
> > >
> > > Thomas.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogrou p s.com>
> > >
> > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas Lee,
> > >
> > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them on
this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I
believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > >
> > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a
member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an
ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > >
> > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck
masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take
on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the
time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in
the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> > >
> > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> > >
> > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past
life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > >
> > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's
books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books
were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and
adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention
that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a
member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on
the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a
Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to
talk about them openly.
> > >
> > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > >
> > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > >
> > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary for
complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's lifetime
> > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve
all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.   Each of us
has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > >
> > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > >
> > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between Life,
or Future Life Progression?
> > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi zoey,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I decided
to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a
sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely sixteen, after finding
an eck book at age 14.
> > > >
> > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and
college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > >
> > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was
rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and
did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends
would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were
bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of
going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > >
> > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > >
> > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > >
> > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > >
> > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings
about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls
back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced
youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It
was exploitation.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > >
> > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they feel
that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come from
people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those
years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken
up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you
would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were
an eckist?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Thomas,

Thanks for the link. I may take a look.

By the way, I approved your membership over at 58PastLives. You can ask as many
questions as you want over there. I will answer them. The message board may be
set up so that I have to approve your posts, we'll see. These message boards can
be tricky to set up correctly. I set things up, and then I'm not even sure how I
did it. For now, I will try very hard to check the "58" mb several times a day.

Thanks again for your interest.

Alan

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@...> wrote:
>
> You can watch "Chances Are"  on Youtube at this link:   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4kevcHRRHU
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: thomas lee <thomaslee40@...>
> To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:51:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: My new "58 Past Lives" message board
>
>
> Jonathan,
>     In your PLR, you stated that your husband and daughter in your previous
life had incarnated with you as Les and Melissa in your present life.   I
realize that it would be awkward to discuss past lives with someone who does not
believe in it.    I presume that you had not mentioned this to Melissa.  
However, since you and Les were childhood friends, did you talk to him about
your PLR?
>
> Your relationship with Melissa is similar to what happened in the movie
Chances Are.    Mary Stuart Masterson  plays the role of Miranda whose father
died in a accident.   Robert Downey Jr plays the role of Alex who is a young
college graduate.  He meets Miranda while working in a library.   Later, he
meets her again when he comes to Wash DC to look for a job.   By chance, he ends
up in the home of Miranda and her mom.   He begins to fall in love with Miranda,
but before the relationship can develop, he begins to have flashbacks that he
was her father in his previous life.   If you have not already seen this movie,
I think you will enjoy it.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
> To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 8:12:15 AM
> Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: My new "58 Past Lives" message board
>
>
> Thomas,
>
> > >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives
that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?
>
> Yes, I definitely did. There was a certain amount of healing during the
regression itself, but to be honest, most of the healing came later. To some
degree I feel that past life regressions most;y just stir up a lot of things,
make you aware of a past life that needs to be addressed, but then the
individual has to find some other way of healing it later. I guess you could
just continue to do more past life regressions, but that gets very expensive.
>
> > >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead
and have a Life Between Lives experience?
>
> I never heard of Life Between Lives when I was going to Janet in 1999-2000.
Maybe it was available, but I don't know. I don't think either of the other two
regressionists recommended it. I considered it, but never seemed to actually set
a priority to do it.
>
> I read Janet's book "A Tribe Returned" which is about a past life she had
where she was a daughter of a plains Indian chief. Janet came to know a lot of
people who were living in that past life with her. The book describes in graphic
detail how the U. S soldiers killed the Indians, and its very traumatic to read.
I think there are many people who would not be able to get through it. I bought
the book directly from Janet.
>
> I also read Janet's book about soul mates. I just tried to go to Janet's web
page. Somebody listed it as a malicious site, so it looks like the "do-gooders"
are out blocking New Age websites. The warning did say that third parties can
add malicious code so maybe that's what happened.
>
> As a regressionist, I give Janet a 100% positive rating. But she is rather
famous, so she does charge more.
>
> Feel free to ask more questions. Maybe it would be best if you joined my
message board, but until then I will probably cross-post these over there. And
thanks for reading my first posts; it was a lot of reading. Your interest will
encourage me to post more.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan,
> >        I just got back home and read:    Diary of Alan - Jan 2-20, 1999
> > and  List of 58 Past lives
> >      I have at least a dozen questions to ask you about all of this.  
Thanks for sharing these intimate details of your past lives with everyone in
this group.
> >
> > >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives
that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?
> > >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead
and have a Life Between Lives experience?  Having a life review with the Council
and knowing your Incarnation Plan would seem to be the final step.   I read
where these experiences would be blocked if your spirit guide feels that you are
not ready to have this experience.
> >
> >     I read a preview of Janet Cunningham's book where a group of individual
souls incarnated at the same time.   Have you read it?   It is not in the book
stores.  I may have to order it online.
> >
> > Michael Newton has written 4 books.  His other two books are:
> > >Life Between Lives: Hypnotherapy for Spiritual Regression
> > >Memories of the Afterlife
> > There are excerpts of these books on Google Books
> > I especially liked Memories of the Afterlife because it contained stories of
PLRs from numerous hypnotherapists who are associated with his institute.
> >
> > If you don't mind, I will be asking you more questions about your PLRs.
> > Thanks
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
> > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 2:15:25 PM
> > Subject: [eckankartruth] My new "58 Past Lives" message board
> >
> >
> > Thomas,
> >
> > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
> >
> > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
> >
> > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your
present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
> > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but I
believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
> >
> > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan?"
> > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special, very
long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
> >
> > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I did
have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go
won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
> >
> > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The project
got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there including a
simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last file that I
uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life regression. The PDF I
have is much better then the format of the post there, but I am still looking
for a good PDF creator.
> >
> > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join, and
you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I
have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the
way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve
your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
> >
> > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/58PastLIve s/
> >
> > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I had
to think up something.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jonathan,
> > >         It sounds like we are both on the same path.   I have read the
books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss.  I am even thinking of taking the
training to become a hypnotherapist.
> > >
> > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression sessions.
Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of
your Soul Group?    Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual
guide,  meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review,  and finding out
your Incarnation Plan.
> > >
> > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to go
through a PLR.    I am especially interested in finding out what life agreements
I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my incarnation
plan is for my present incarnation.
> > >
> > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past
lives.   If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first
incarnation would be 5,000 years ago.   However, I am sure it was much earlier
than that.
> > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be appreciated
> > >
> > > Thomas.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogrou p s.com>
> > >
> > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
> > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas Lee,
> > >
> > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them on
this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I
believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still
believe in it now after leaving.
> > >
> > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a
member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an
ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
> > >
> > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck
masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take
on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the
time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in
the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are
associated with us are not.
> > >
> > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about
something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently
teaches.
> > >
> > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past
life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had
extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar
teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any
chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't
match those of Paul Twitchell's.
> > >
> > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's
books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books
were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and
adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention
that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a
member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on
the inner planes.  So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a
Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to
talk about them openly.
> > >
> > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile.   I do not feel it was a waste of
time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
> > > >
> > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
> > > >
> > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
> > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary for
complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's lifetime
> > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to
seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of
unfoldment
> > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve
all of your karmic issues.   The individual must do it for himself.   Each of us
has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
> > > >
> > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master?   We were told to
destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his
works were gone.   This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and
persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control.      Everyone loved
Paul's books.  Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great
storyteller.
> > > >
> > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about
reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog.   The moderator felt it was
spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of
Eckankar teachings.   Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise
the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. 
They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone had or researched:  Past Life Regression,  Life Between Life,
or Future Life Progression?
> > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your
past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
> > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
> > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi zoey,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I decided
to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a
sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely sixteen, after finding
an eck book at age 14.
> > > >
> > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I
especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the
precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were
going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting
up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my
first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds!
Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and
college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a
better direction.
> > > >
> > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was
rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and
did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends
would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were
bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of
going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism,
some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti
Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
> > > >
> > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal
development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I
left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
> > > >
> > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my
relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have
nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between
us.
> > > >
> > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't
touched, and not always in the best of ways.
> > > >
> > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings
about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls
back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced
youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It
was exploitation.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of
several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that
if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM
or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to
get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully,
especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
> > > >
> > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > >
> > > > Leaf
> > > >
> > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they feel
that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years.  These posts typically come from
people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those
years away?  If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken
up with a different path or group, perhaps something better?  Do you think you
would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were
an eckist?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar.  And I am not being a smart-ass here.  I am
sincerely and genuinely curious.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as
well.  I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many
years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, zoey
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I
imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It
is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just
perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar —
assumptions and rationalization.

We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only
guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we
come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More
often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than
the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase,
"Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."

I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would
challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is
used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.

My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no
significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and
throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art
that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to
back up your claims.

I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego
trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar
experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth.
And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated
with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.

From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a
meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So
what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a
diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong
to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.

Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he
goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's  program of lies, deceit and
manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.

The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that
are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation
of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said
in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.

Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the
earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.




--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Harrison,
>
> I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just
for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too."
That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention
Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have
not had the time to read his book.
>
> So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a
master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well
with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner
experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting
close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are
your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that
you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling
you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other
masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
>
> From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather
engaging in a general discussion.
>
> Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his
experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of
Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many
Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse
than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the
worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all
of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said
they should be.
>
> I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left
Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul
travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as
the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You
know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you
there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
>
> So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them
is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in
Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave
Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal,
or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
>
> I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby.
This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the
book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your
standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
it, they are leaving Eckankar.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff
I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior
to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was
really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the
eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they
were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns
and secret spaces.
> >
> > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
> >
> > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a
psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of
experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about
eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu
whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
un-believe-able.
> >
> > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy,
eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light
or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want
nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It
scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
threatens to upset the whole cult.
> >
> > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain
and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot,
if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing
to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying
answer.
> >
> > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal,
discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and
nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk.
Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
> >
> > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about
every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or
that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth,
inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing
(as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
> >
> > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what
goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all
of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and
in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
> >
> > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere
close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely
boost his already distorted sense of self.
> >
> > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those
like  us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand,
grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never
agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some
good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
at the helm.
> >
>

Darn, I just missed the closing of the petition, but I went ahead and signed up
for future emails. It is a fact that there are only about 3200 wild tigers left
in the entire world. This is very sad.

tygerpurr

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Sharon <brighttigress@...> wrote:
>
> I have just taken action to support strong protections for endangered species
and I hope you will join me to protect our nation's wildlife and wild places
>
> The Obama Administration is asking us for our thoughts on the Endangered
Species Act. For over 35 years, the Endangered Species Act has been a safety net
for our species on the brink of extinction. We must keep it strong so that it
can continue to protect our nation's wildlife and wild places.
>
> Please join me in asking the Obama Administration to support strong and
scientifically based protections for endangered species.
>
> This petition doesn't have too many signatures so I hope others will sign and
spread the word!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sharon
>