(This editorial originally appeared in the Little Rock National Democrat, F=
ebruary 4th, 1865, author C.W. Meador.)

A vintage whine: The Age of Humbug

Humbug.

The Boston Pilot, in one of its clever editorials, lately characterized thi=
s as the age of humbug. Says the editor: "We are living in the age of humbug=
. Humbug has entered into all the affairs of life." This, with due respect, =
is, in good part, humbug.

Every now and then, editors, in different localities ... tell us that this =
is the age of brass, or the age of progress, the age of steam, the age of fr=
eedom, or some other kind of age, about all of which there is a great deal o=
f humbug. The past century had as much proportionate progress as the present=
  has. The next century will have its relative degree of progress.

Probably, in the year 2000, men will correspond with each other though at o=
pposite extremities of the globe, by some spiritual means.

The air will then be traversed as land and water now are. By some newly dis=
covered terrible forces whole armies can be destroyed at a blow. Science wil=
l have unlocked many of her numerous stores. We will be looked upon as poor =
benighted people of a twilight age cackling over such primary discoveries as=
  the telegraph, steam power, photography and monitors*.

There may be more chivalry in one age; more steam in another; more freedom =
in another, and even a greater degree of progress in another. But humbug is =
common to all ages and to all claims. It is in proportion to the number of h=
uman beings, whether they are savages or highly civilized.

Humbug pervades religion, morals, science; in fact, all that men do, or say=
, or think. The medicine man of the savage, and the very reverend of the fas=
hionable church are all tinctured with humbug.

The barbarian herbalist who uses his charms or poultice of bruised leaves, =
and the graduated practitioner who writes his prescription in the dog latin =
of the apothecaries are, to the same extent, humbugs. The patent medicine ma=
n, who has a specific for all ailments has his counterpart in the poor savag=
e who believes his medicine store, or amulet, or juices of some herb, will h=
eal all diseases. Religion has its hypocrites; patriotism its pretenders; sc=
ience its charlatans; medicine its quacks, and all things their humbugs. Say=
s Hudibras: "Doubtless the pleasure is as great, In being cheated as to chea=
t."

There is a vast deal of truth in these lines. Men like to be humbugged.

The worst and bitterest enemies we ever made were those when we showed them=
  that they had been humbugged.

They were more ready to forgive the one who cheated them, than we, who had =
exposed the cheat. It is human nature to be angry when a man discovers he ha=
s been making a fool of himself, and especially to be angry at the friend wh=
o tried to prevent him from being bamboozled.

The world is governed by humbug, from great things to small. Solomon sums u=
p human life, after tasting power and pleasure, and with the greatest means =
of the world at his command, as "vanity of vanities," which phrase may be co=
mpressed into the one word — humbug.

All great events in history were humbugs. The siege of Troy was a humbug. T=
he crusades were a gigantic humbug. Wars are grand humbugs. Some humbugging =
love affair; some trivial question as to the humbug of rank; some humbug int=
erpretation of a letter or speech, has set kingdoms at war and changed the c=
urrent of events. In matters of science — even the most exact ones — humbug =
flourishes.

Astrology, that for centuries employed so much learning, turns out to be a =
humbug. The philosopher's stone is ditto. Sorcery, divination, witchcraft an=
d the thousand beliefs of the middle ages, were all humbugs. The world likes=
  to be humbugged.

Humbug, an expressive English word, is not so much a form of falsehood, or =
another name for untruth. It is that species of falsehood by which men are i=
mposed upon. But, of all its forms, none is worse than where the humbugger h=
umbugs himself.

When the courtesan persuades herself that she is virtuous, or as much so as=
  other women; when the rogue convinces himself that he is honest; the hypocr=
ite that he is religious at bottom; the demagogue that he is a patriot, and =
the fool that he is wise, then it becomes mischievious [sic] as well as disg=
usting.

---------------------

Same old, same old, isn't it?  BTW, *"monitors" refers to ironclad warships=
, not computer monitors.

2003!!!  Who would have believed it!!!!

I just had a great idea!!  It won't take long, and it'll save a lot of trou=
ble - I think I'm going to get out my checkbook and just write "2003" on my =
checks right now!!!

Hugs,

Sharon

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "dreamlillyanne
<AnneWalton@c...>" <AnneWalton@c...> wrote:
> Has anyone ever wondered, questioned this belief in saints and
> masters that helps lure people to religion/cults/orgs like Eckankar?
> I wonder that the whole concept/belief is just that a belief that is
> reinforced by our belief in it.  The belief in mastership really was
> a hook for me and now I find no credence in carrying such a belief
> at all anymore.
>
> Anne

Hi Anne. Weren't you just recently posting on a.r.e. as an Eckist?
Just wondering if you "jumped the fence"?
Anyway, welcome aboard. Now maybe you can see the lighter side of
Alfie (the dark kal god of Evil Incarnate!!!)

Alfie

Still kicking and happy in Central Jersey!!!!

My toaster has been giving me secret lessons on life
and has instructed me to spread the world. I used to be
gullible when I was in Eckankar,and you can laugh if you
wish not having achieved my higher state of consciousness.
The Little Toaster says he just wants to communicate the
greater truths to help us live better lives Electrically.
The Electric toaster master of ETM for short says
1) Bread is the staff of life
2) You must love and OBEY the little toaster
3) Misuse of the little toaster brings shocking bad karma
4) Seeds are nuisances. Throw away Caraway
5)Keep a clean shiny exterior
6) Crumbs are little pieces of bread returning to their
source.
7) Keep plugged in to life
8) Never ever throw out the little toaster.
There are many more lesons the ETM has been teaching me. I
have been writing his words of wisdom on post-it-notes.
Correspondence may be futile but subcriptions will be
available soon for the Rising Bread Discourses. The ETM
blesses you and all its toaster brethren coworkers in Knead

(This is a repost from a.r.e., actually Harvey had submitted his post here
but I rejected it because I felt it was perhaps "pro-Darwin" and possibly
off-topic for this forum, where the premise is that the LEMons are
basically the "Three Stooges of Spirituality" and while I think Darwin got
screwed, my opinion of him isn't much different from my opinion of the
Twitch & Klemp.  This is *not* a forum for Gross vs. Klemp, and those who
still think Twitch was something "special".  Also...Bill Flavell "nuked"
his pro-Twitch/Gross Yahoo groups, but he was kind enough to upload the
files from one of them here which I hadn't finished reading - some
interesting stuff, check them out in the "files" section!)

Well...here's Harvey's original post from a.r.e. along with a good response
to it.

gsc8853@... (starbright) wrote:
> harveydodds@... (HarveyDodds) wrote in message
> news:<60e4e58a.0301031043.737e3b42@...>...
> > The airport was large and ultra modern with space age touches. I've
> > got no baggage, only a coat with a ticket in the pocket. No idea how I
> > got there. Check back pocket-still got wallet. Am I dead or am I in
> > Denver? Many are speaking English except those Star Wars cantina like
> > creatures scuttling about. Will figure it out.
> >     Ticket has no destination listed. I ask woman sitting in seat
> > staring
> > at videomonitor but shes not talking or can't answer. The one in the
> > other
> > seat is going ZZZ but unfortunately hes only sleeping. A portly man
> > comes walking towards me. He's dressed in blue with a cape like
> > overcoat with a jaunty
> > racing cap. I recognize him. Its Darwin! I'm surprised.
> >      Darwin was the Eck master before my time in Eckankar. I'd always
> > had a
> > fondness for him as he was a musician as well, the pied piper of happy
> > blues as one reviewer called him. Always liked Boxcar Blues. Little do
> > they
> > know little draggy. I greet him." Darwin is that you? So it turns out
> > that youre
> > the Living Eck Master of the Vairagi order after all?
> > The terms Eck, Vairagi and Living Eck Master are the trademarks of
> > Eckankar he says to me sadly.
> > I understand really. So are you the boss of the gelatinous life force
> > order of the Boucheron?
> > No Harvey I'm just heading for my destination just like you.
> > So is WahZee coming by then.? I ask intently
> > Listen Harvey there are some things I have to tell you he fixes me
> > with a penetrating gaze.
> >    Just then the intercom crackled. Mr Darwin Gross, Mr Darwin Gross,
> > please report to the courtesy desk on level 1.He clasps my hands "Best
> > of
> > luck Harvey " and walks away.What did he want to tell me? After all
> > those
> > teachings why couldn't he just go to the Sugmad himself. Was he on a
> > secret
> > mission? TV still running in seat vacated by large woman. I sit down.
> > Cool I
> > think ,they get Letterman here.
>
> Even though I should have never believed that MR. Darwin Gross was the
> Savior of souls, I have developed a knack for figuring out the wacky
> dreams his image created  in his "students" minds. "Listen Harvey,
> there are some things that I have to tell you". Then the intercom
> crackled, MR. Darwin Gross, Mr. Darwin Gross. The dream interpretation
> is that he wanted to tell you his name, and he let someone else do it
> for him. The wacky dreams I had when he was the "master" always left
> me ever confused about what the dreams was all about, so I never could
> make any "progress" in eck. Some of the dreams required exploration
> into other higher forms of thought not taught in eckankar. I was real
> lucky to decipher the dreams. It turned out that he (or I ) was more
> angry with me than himself, and hid his anger in the confusing dreams
> that took place over several years.As it all turned out, my failure in
> "eck" was do to circumstances that took place very early in life.
> Dealing with certain  traumatic situations that I was too young to
> understand, and that attitude follows me through adult life. So the
> "eck" can't blame me for failure, because I should have not been
> brought into this false path in the first place. One more thing about
> this path . The creation of archetypes. When Paul created eckankar, he
> created archetypes in his books. Early in eck, most everyone agreed
> that they had seen  Paul or Darwin on the "inner". The archetype is
> the most powerful mental tool that a skilled person can use for his
> own benefit. Pauls books started the archetypes, and they took hold,
> causing both positive and negative reactions in his readers minds. The
> Kal is an archetype for anger, hatred, and deceit. I guess that
> archetype would be real hard to get rid of in this world. The dreams
> then, are from your own readings about Darwin, and were caused by the
> archetypes that you accepted by reading about him. In it's your own
> mind. Even my interpretation about the dream is from my own archetypes
> that I accepted about Darwin Gross. The one responsibility I have. For
> a 5 year period, I believed just like Darwin, that he was a special
> messenger from God. If he wouldn't have believed it, I would not have
> believed in it also. For that 5 year period, we were one.But now I'm
> wiser, and won't accept his mistake as my own.

--
FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/files.html

I'm beginning to see what challenges others have had while leaving
when friends and family who are members continue as members.  They
simply have no concept of what kind of fool one could be to leave
after being shown such a "wonderful path", and all the crap that goes
with it (having to start over with the discourses, having to live
this life over again, etc)

One long time member recently commented how shocked they were to see
a long time member simply drop out before they could talk to the
person.  I wonder what they do when they talk?

What angles of persuasion are typical?  I'd be interested in any
comments on what those of you experienced if you left, especially
those who are really disappointed in your choice.  I'm preparing.

One of my favorite "Stayisms" was when someone told me that: "I had a choice in
life of what to believe and what not to believe.  In the long run, I would make
my own universe around whatever I choose to believe".

This person had little regard for actual truth.

As Rebasar is reported to have once said (hmmmm) "It's good to be born in a
religion and Bad to die in one."

When I left eckankar I was fortunate not to have loved ones on the path.  My
friends in eckankar mostly disappeared.  Some kept touch however 2 very close (I
thought) friends refuse to speak to me now.  I think I scared them when I left.

We are a threat to those who are in eckankar.  They believe sincerely (most at
least) that they have spent their lives on the "right" path to god.  If those
who leave are correct, then those who stay are living in an illusion, and
leaving comfy old eck is pretty scary!

A few folks kept in touch.  Only 2 of them have told me that "the master is
always willing to take me back, when I'm ready that is."  I told both of them
that I'd rather have a lobotomy. (In much nicer terms of course)

I have not visited an eck center since I left as I feel that would be treading
on someone else's terrain.  As I was a high initiate and had been around a long
time, it would have stirred things up a bit, so I stay away.

I guess in the long run, if someone really cares about you, it doesn't matter
what you profess to believe...they will be ok with it.  If not, you're probably
better off without them.

A lot of ex-eckists simply don't comment when asked if they are still members of
eckankar.....I was once told "That is between me and God", when I asked this
question to an old eckist who I thought had left......that was while I was still
a member though.

Good Luck
Paul
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: weatherby_240 <95yukon@...>
   To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: January 05, 2003 7:30 PM
   Subject: [eckankartruth] Closet ex-eckist


   I'm beginning to see what challenges others have had while leaving
   when friends and family who are members continue as members.  They
   simply have no concept of what kind of fool one could be to leave
   after being shown such a "wonderful path", and all the crap that goes
   with it (having to start over with the discourses, having to live
   this life over again, etc)

   One long time member recently commented how shocked they were to see
   a long time member simply drop out before they could talk to the
   person.  I wonder what they do when they talk?

   What angles of persuasion are typical?  I'd be interested in any
   comments on what those of you experienced if you left, especially
   those who are really disappointed in your choice.  I'm preparing.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
<95yukon@e...> wrote:
> I'm beginning to see what challenges others have had while leaving
> when friends and family who are members continue as members.  They
> simply have no concept of what kind of fool one could be to leave
> after being shown such a "wonderful path", and all the crap that goes
> with it (having to start over with the discourses, having to live
> this life over again, etc)
>
> One long time member recently commented how shocked they were to see
> a long time member simply drop out before they could talk to the
> person.  I wonder what they do when they talk?
>
> What angles of persuasion are typical?  I'd be interested in any
> comments on what those of you experienced if you left, especially
> those who are really disappointed in your choice.  I'm preparing.

~~~~~~~~~
Hi,

Just a quick response (I have jury duty this morn :), I dont know if there are
typical responses from other eckists, the state resa wanted to talk to me, but
he missed the appointed time, called the following day I didnt answer the phone,
by then I knew I didnt want to be persuaded.

I experienced such anger prior to leaving, most of the anger, sense of betrayal
was on its way out when I handed in my resignation..however it took another year
and a half to be rid of eckness.

I still keep in touch with a few, mostly hello's, etc.  One has remained a kind
and supportive friend throughout, however, she is more openminded than most.

Good fortune on this 'new' path you are carving for yourself,  best I can say..
be an observer..

Sandra

Sandra wrote:
>One has remained a kind and supportive friend throughout, however, she is more
openminded than most.

That's good that she's remained a friend.  I have a few internet "friends" like
that who are still members, but....no matter what, the bottom line is inside,
they believe absolutely that eventually, as the cult teaches,
there is no way one can get to God without the cult's "leader", and that former
members *will* wake up and "surrender" even if it takes thousands of
incarnations on the ol' "Wheel of 84".


>Good fortune on this 'new' path you are carving for yourself, best I can say..
be an observer..

You summed it all up here, Sandra!!  Observe, and detach and think rationally
about it - no matter how much our minds (and hearts) have been messed with by
the cult,  it's not really that difficult to get past it and think logically and
rationally again.  And...this is no way interferes with considering any
"mystical" possibilities, because let's face it, a lot of things just aren't
really explainable. .. yet.


Paul wrote:
>As Rebasar is reported to have once said (hmmmm) "It's good to be born in a
religion and Bad to die in one."

I'll betcha someone else said this first!!   I wonder...maybe Mark Twain or
Chesterton?

Paul, you made some good points about former members who respect the space of
eckists who want to believe.  But I also think some of this has to do with the
cultic programming about non-interference, people needing the "experience" of
different paths, which when we get out sometimes still affects us in a "reverse"
way - there's maybe a fine line between non-interference and respect, and giving
others the opportunity for freedom.  I find the best "middle" path to follow
with inquirers is to give them URLs and then try to avoid any long
conversations!  <gg>

OH!!  Which reminds me - I was checking my links to make sure they're all
working, and yours isn't!!  If you've taken down your "ecksperience" page, if
you still have it would you consider at least uploading it to the "files"
section here?  I'd appreciate it, and so would others!!

And...a few comments on:
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>

>   I'm beginning to see what challenges others have had while leaving
>   when friends and family who are members continue as members.  They
>   simply have no concept of what kind of fool one could be to leave
>   after being shown such a "wonderful path", and all the crap that goes
>   with it (having to start over with the discourses, having to live
>   this life over again, etc)
>


My firmest "belief" was straight from the "teachings" - "the eck" is life
itself, and how can you leave life itself?  <ggg>

You've got to sort of admire Twitch's sort of "criminal genius."  He took so
many of the basic things we learn in life, and pick up just from here & there,
slapped on the "ecklabel" and told us that because things "resonate" it's a sign
that we've always been eckists and just didn't know it!



>   One long time member recently commented how shocked they were to see
>   a long time member simply drop out before they could talk to the
>   person.  I wonder what they do when they talk?
>

They basically spew cult dogma, and regurgitate all the garbage they were
force-fed by the cult.  Does that sound harsh?  Well...going through old email
yesterday reminded me how it's just all the same-old, same old.  They use the
exact same words expressing the exact same thoughts, all of which express what
they think are their own thoughts, but it's too obvious it all comes straight
from the "eckteachings".

They believe the "rascally compiler" plagiarism rationalizations.  They're
indoctrinated with this nonsense long before they even know about the
plagiarism.

They rationalize the disgusting behavior of HIs with the excuse that anyone can
"fall" - the ecksplanation given for Darwin.  They don't stop to *think* that it
doesn't make sense, and the fact that Klemp Himself (on the inner *and* the
outer) hands out initiations based on "spiritual growth", etc.  Baloney - it's
like putting a wolf in charge of innocent little lambs.  And many of these lambs
will grow into wolves, which is exactly what the cult wants, don't you think?

Using "ecksplanations" like this, well...can you imagine the Catholic Church
saying that children needed the experience of being molested?  E-kult basically
does this.


>   What angles of persuasion are typical?  I'd be interested in any
>   comments on what those of you experienced if you left, especially
>   those who are really disappointed in your choice.  I'm preparing.


You know, I'm just thinking here of the many cult members who tried to persuade
me to stay privately - because let's face it, any eckist who's "nice" on a.r.e.
will get the same treatment as detractors!  That's what happened to me there. 
<ggg>

Why don't you try writing a letter to Harold and see what kind of response you
get?  Others have done this in the past.  I wrote what I thought was a
respectful letter, asking where the money goes.  Never got a response.

I remember a little discussion I had with an HI when I was a member, about
another member who'd left the cult.  The HI expressed the basic belief that this
woman would *have* to return, because how could she continue denying her
"ecksperiences" as a cult member?  It's not a matter of "denial" - it's just
realizing that you don't have to settle for lies and cult ecksplanations for
everything.  And later, when I left, this HI sort of laughed and said evidently
I just needed the experience of "detracting" for spiritual growth.

Another nice one I spoke with, well...I tried to be very diplomatic because this
was a really nice old lady who'd been in since Twitch's time, well...I didn't
say much.  She wasn't on the internet, more than likely never will be, but I
asked her if she'd ever heard about the plagiarism.  There was a long
silence...then she said she'd almost left once during Darwin's time, but didn't
really know why she stayed.  I dropped the subject.

Well...my mind isn't really on this subject right now.  The best thing you can
do is just deal with this as it comes up, if you're going to be talking to
current members.  Aside from wanting as much info available as possible on the
internet, I just don't really like talking about it because I get into that
"broken record" thing, and going around in circles - and I don't like to do it.

Anyway, here's a funny one someone sent me recently -

  >I'm doing "Sri Paul Twitchell" 3-word anagrams, and I found
one I thought you might like! :)


  phallic write slut  :)


<giggle>

Have a great week, everyone!

Hugs,

Sharon

I've heard that one of the topics that former eckists face when
talking to members that remain is the one where the member claims
that they saw eck masters in their dreams even before becoming
members, therefore how can you deny it isn't real?...

I never experienced that and wonder if those that do are so
programmed to believe they did that it becomes real.  I'm sure just
about anyone who immerses themselves so deep into a belief system
will eventually recall seeing that of which they want to believe and
swear they have been familiar with the object of their dreams in the
past.

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
<95yukon@e...> wrote:
> I've heard that one of the topics that former eckists face when
> talking to members that remain is the one where the member claims
> that they saw eck masters in their dreams even before becoming
> members, therefore how can you deny it isn't real?...
>
> I never experienced that and wonder if those that do are so
> programmed to believe they did that it becomes real.  I'm sure just
> about anyone who immerses themselves so deep into a belief system
> will eventually recall seeing that of which they want to believe
and
> swear they have been familiar with the object of their dreams in
the
>
past.


               Hi there, The way I see it...The time field extends
beyond the human point to point consequitive thought flow...expanded
consciousness explores the whole field, and sometimes those
explorations leak into the human mental aspect...we in mind spend
much of our time trying consiously or unconsciously to make today
like yesterday in order to feel secure...Dejavu is quite common and
dreams of future possibilities and meetings with tomorrow people not
yet known isnt uncommon either...That eckists claim because they saw
a LEMon in a dream then later saw a photo of a LEMon proof that it is
a LEMon...so what?    jimmi

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
<95yukon@e...> wrote:
> I've heard that one of the topics that former eckists face when
> talking to members that remain is the one where the member claims
> that they saw eck masters in their dreams even before becoming
> members, therefore how can you deny it isn't real?...
>
> I never experienced that and wonder if those that do are so
> programmed to believe they did that it becomes real.  I'm sure just
> about anyone who immerses themselves so deep into a belief system
> will eventually recall seeing that of which they want to believe
and
> swear they have been familiar with the object of their dreams in
the
> past.


I was one that had said that I saw Fubbi Quantz before I even knew
about Eckankar, and I wasn't dreaming when I saw him.  I had a bad
headache and had read in a book that if you concentrated on the area
where the ache was, send it energy, try to decide how big the area
was, how much would it hold in volume, etc., etc., then the headache
would go away.  This is what I was doing.  I was concentrating on the
back right side of my head, looking at a black screen in my mind,
then like someone turned on a TV, I saw this man all in white, with
the white bushy eyebrows, and white beard, and this white robe with
the white hood lying back over his head.  Also in the corner of this
vision (?) I saw a silhoutte of a small person standing looking at
this man.  This image stayed with me for 30-45 seconds. I was
wondering at the time what and who I was looking at and for what
reason.  I was so amazed as nothing had happened like this before.  I
made notes of everything I observed once the vision disappeared.  I
joined Eckankar a year and half later, and reconized this master.
So  thats my story and I'm sticking to it!

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
<95yukon@e...> wrote:
> I've heard that one of the topics that former eckists face when
> talking to members that remain is the one where the member claims
> that they saw eck masters in their dreams even before becoming
> members, therefore how can you deny it isn't real?...
>
> I never experienced that and wonder if those that do are so
> programmed to believe they did that it becomes real.  I'm sure just
> about anyone who immerses themselves so deep into a belief system
> will eventually recall seeing that of which they want to believe and
> swear they have been familiar with the object of their dreams in the
> past.

Trying to cut down on typing - I wrote a bit about this in Message #340.

Do a Google advanced search on alt.religion.eckankar for "all words" sick
twisted sharon and you'll come up with another of my ecksperiences.  Also: 
local mall sharon  And: giant screen mansion sharon

Maybe one of them will turn up one single post with several "ecksperiences" in
it.  I've posted with several email addresses over the years at different times,
that's why putting "sharon" in as a search word works better than me in author
field.

Anyway....from the very first, any eck-related experiences were deceptive,
and/or turned out to be *warnings* - perhaps from my real "guardian angel" or
whatever.  That's why when I was a member, many of them just didn't make sense.

Many possibilities - my favorites are things Twitch & the Klempster accuse
*others* of doing - like the black magician dream invasion story, Twitch's
telling of pesky astral entities who like to trick humans - yep, those little
buggers like dressing up as "eckmasters" to help con people into the cult, and
then laughing their asses off at the local bar, afterwards!!  These entities
also operate beyond the time track, so actually, they can flip back to a
person's "past" and produce a "sighting" back before Twitch even started e-kult!

Some have suggested that people are actually just dreaming of archetypes - and
humans have look-alikes too.  I know a guy who's the spitting image of Kenny
Rogers!  Actually, it doesn't take much - white hair, beard, mustache.  And if
they get really chubby & grow the beard a bit longer, they look like Santa!!

As jimmi posted, precognitive dreams, deja-vu, etc., are quite common.

What I find interesting is Catholic saint, Jesus, and Mary sightings - there are
tons of them, and many experienced by non-Catholics.  There's a lot more
documentation of these things than "eckmaster" sightings - to be honest, the
cult as a whole is just so phony & deceptive I honestly don't believe all those
eckmaster-sighting stories.   And here, I'm also thinking of Dennis Webber,
whose personal story of a childhood experience with the blue star or something,
which he sent to Klemp in a "confidential" initiate's report, was published and
CHANGED for publication in an eckbook, without his permission!!!  I've got to
find that one again for compiling.

Dontcha think a genuine "master" would come up with some original words when
giving dictation to a mahanta-in-training, and not have to quote a book which
Twitch already owned?

I don't necessarily trust non-physical beings any more than I trust physical
beings.  Too many serial killers were "nice guy" types, pillars of the
community, etc.

Hey, for all we know, maybe the Christian fundies are right - there's a
scripture about Satan transforming himself into an angel of light, something
like that!  <ggg>

Well...that's enough eckancrap for today!!

Hugs,

Sharon

As to the "I saw an eck master before I joined eckankar" stuff.  I had a load of
out of body experiences including spiritual journey experiences before I joined
eckankar.  In fact, the good old Blue light was a companion to me when I was as
young as 2 years old (yep, I remember).....That doesn't mean that they had
anything to do with eckankar.  In fact, many pathways lay claim to being the
cause of spiritual experiences.

I have become a firm believer that catholics see Jesus, buddhists see buddha,
Moslums see Mohaned or whoever and on and on.....

The point being that I think life itself, and the treue inner master, will show
itself as whatever form the exp-eriencer is most comfortable with.  Yet it,
itself has no true form except for the formless.

It was either here or on A.R.E, or on Colleens group that the brother of Diana
Stanley showed up and told his tales.  His sister, Diane, is the artist
responsible for all of the "official pictures" of the eck masters.  He revealed
that she had left eckankar some time ago, and that while she was in eckankar,
she dreamed up each of these "official" pictures.  She just saw them in her
head.  It gained her quite a bit of notoriety in eckankar for many years.  Diana
just made em up folks!

SO, if you saw a guy when you were a kid who looked like someone Diana drew
(official eck images), then you probably should look way back and see if the
description is fairly generic.....Rebasar = robe, beard, square jawed...black
hair.....This could easily fit thousands of folks who originate from that part
of the world.  Now, if they presented ID as well as their names in the
experience, or showed up at an eck seminar somewhere and declared themselves,
that would be a different matter!

I am a bit surprised that eckankar hasn't hired some actor to make an appearance
at a seminar as this or that master.  The guy could stay around 15-20 minutes in
the hallway and then split......it would get the eckists buzzing for years to
come!  Guess no one there is smart enough to dream up that one, or too smart to
risk discovery later.

Trust life....it takes us where we need to be.  But remember that since you
declared your independence, you get to drive too!

Paul

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Sharon <brighttigress@...>
   To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: January 07, 2003 6:01 PM
   Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Discussions with eckists - dreams of masters
before joining?


   --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
<95yukon@e...> wrote:
   > I've heard that one of the topics that former eckists face when
   > talking to members that remain is the one where the member claims
   > that they saw eck masters in their dreams even before becoming
   > members, therefore how can you deny it isn't real?...
   >
   > I never experienced that and wonder if those that do are so
   > programmed to believe they did that it becomes real.  I'm sure just
   > about anyone who immerses themselves so deep into a belief system
   > will eventually recall seeing that of which they want to believe and
   > swear they have been familiar with the object of their dreams in the
   > past.

   Trying to cut down on typing - I wrote a bit about this in Message #340.

   Do a Google advanced search on alt.religion.eckankar for "all words" sick
twisted sharon and you'll come up with another of my ecksperiences.  Also: 
local mall sharon  And: giant screen mansion sharon

   Maybe one of them will turn up one single post with several "ecksperiences" in
it.  I've posted with several email addresses over the years at different times,
that's why putting "sharon" in as a search word works better than me in author
field.

   Anyway....from the very first, any eck-related experiences were deceptive,
and/or turned out to be *warnings* - perhaps from my real "guardian angel" or
whatever.  That's why when I was a member, many of them just didn't make sense.

   Many possibilities - my favorites are things Twitch & the Klempster accuse
*others* of doing - like the black magician dream invasion story, Twitch's
telling of pesky astral entities who like to trick humans - yep, those little
buggers like dressing up as "eckmasters" to help con people into the cult, and
then laughing their asses off at the local bar, afterwards!!  These entities
also operate beyond the time track, so actually, they can flip back to a
person's "past" and produce a "sighting" back before Twitch even started e-kult!

   Some have suggested that people are actually just dreaming of archetypes - and
humans have look-alikes too.  I know a guy who's the spitting image of Kenny
Rogers!  Actually, it doesn't take much - white hair, beard, mustache.  And if
they get really chubby & grow the beard a bit longer, they look like Santa!!

   As jimmi posted, precognitive dreams, deja-vu, etc., are quite common.

   What I find interesting is Catholic saint, Jesus, and Mary sightings - there
are tons of them, and many experienced by non-Catholics.  There's a lot more
documentation of these things than "eckmaster" sightings - to be honest, the
cult as a whole is just so phony & deceptive I honestly don't believe all those
eckmaster-sighting stories.   And here, I'm also thinking of Dennis Webber,
whose personal story of a childhood experience with the blue star or something,
which he sent to Klemp in a "confidential" initiate's report, was published and
CHANGED for publication in an eckbook, without his permission!!!  I've got to
find that one again for compiling.

   Dontcha think a genuine "master" would come up with some original words when
giving dictation to a mahanta-in-training, and not have to quote a book which
Twitch already owned?

   I don't necessarily trust non-physical beings any more than I trust physical
beings.  Too many serial killers were "nice guy" types, pillars of the
community, etc.

   Hey, for all we know, maybe the Christian fundies are right - there's a
scripture about Satan transforming himself into an angel of light, something
like that!  <ggg>

   Well...that's enough eckancrap for today!!

   Hugs,

   Sharon









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Emperor's Seed

An emperor in the Far East was growing old and knew it was time to
choose His successor. Instead of choosing one of his assistants or
his children, he decided something different.

He called young people in the kingdom together one day.  He
said, "It is time for me to step down and choose the next emperor. I
have decided to choose one of you."

The kids were shocked! But the emperor continued. "I am going to
give each one of you a seed today, one very special seed. I want you
to plant the seed, water it and come back here one year from today
with what you have grown from this one seed. I will then judge the
plants that you bring, and the one I choose will be the next emperor!"

One boy named Ling was there that day and he, like the others,
received a seed. He went home and excitedly told his mother the
story. She helped him get a pot and planting soil, and he planted
the seed and watered it carefully.

Every day he would water it and watch to see if it had grown. After
about 3 weeks, some of the other youths began to talk about their
seeds and the plants that were beginning to grow. Ling kept checking
his seed, but nothing ever grew. 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 5 weeks went by.
Still nothing.

By now, others were talking about their plants but Ling didn't have a
plant, and he felt like a failure. 6 months went by; still nothing
in Ling's pot. He just knew he had killed his seed. Everyone else
had trees and tall plants, but he had nothing.

Ling didn't say anything to his friends, however. He just kept
waiting for his seed to grow. A year finally went by and all the
youths of the kingdom brought their plants to the emperor for
inspection.

Ling told his mother that he wasn't going to take an empty pot but
his Mother said he must be honest about what happened. Ling felt
sick to his stomach, but he knew his Mother was right.

He took his empty pot to the palace. When Ling arrived, he was
amazed at the variety of plants grown by the other youths. They were
beautiful-in all shapes and sizes. Ling put his empty pot on the
floor and many of the other kinds laughed at him. A few felt sorry
for him and just said, "Hey nice try."

When the emperor arrived, he surveyed the room and greeted the young
people. Ling just tried to hide in the back. "My, what great
plants, trees and flowers you have grown," said the emperor. "Today,
one of you will be appointed the next emperor!"

All of a sudden, the emperor spotted Ling at the back of the room
with his empty pot. He ordered his guards to bring him to the
front. Ling was terrified. "The emperor knows I'm a failure! Maybe
he will have me killed!"

When Ling got to the front, the Emperor asked his name. "My name is
Ling," he replied. All the kids were laughing and making fun of
him. The emperor asked everyone to quiet down.

He looked at Ling, and then announced to the crowd, "Behold your new
emperor! His name is Ling!" Ling couldn't believe it. Ling
couldn't even grow his seed. How could he be the new emperor?

Then the emperor said, "One year ago today, I gave everyone here a
seed. I told you to take the seed, plant it, water it, and bring it
back to me today. But I gave you all boiled seeds, which would not
grow. All of you, except Ling, have brought me trees and plants and
flowers. When you found that the seed would not grow, you
substituted another seed for the one I gave you.

Ling was the only one with the courage and honesty to bring me a pot
with my seed in it. Therefore, he is the one who will be the new
emperor!"

If you plant honesty, you will reap trust.
If you plant goodness, you will reap friends.
If you plant humility, you will reap greatness.
If you plant perseverance, you will reap victory.
If you plant consideration, you will reap harmony.
If you plant hard work, you will reap success.
If you plant forgiveness, you will reap reconciliation.
If you plant openness, you will reap intimacy.
If you plant patience, you will reap improvements.
If you plant faith, you will reap miracles.
But:
If you plant dishonesty, you will reap distrust.


If you plant selfishness, you will reap loneliness.
If you plant pride, you will reap destruction.
If you plant envy, you will reap trouble.
If you plant laziness, you will reap stagnation.
If you plant bitterness, you will reap isolation.
If you plant greed, you will reap loss.
If you plant gossip, you will reap enemies.
If you plant worries, you will reap wrinkles.
If you plant sin, you will reap guilt.

So be careful what you plant now, it will determine what you will
reap tomorrow.

The seeds you now scatter will make life worse or better your life or
the ones who will come after. Yes, someday, you will enjoy the fruits,
or you will pay for the choices you plant today.

Dear friends,
Although I have never met any of you, I can't adequately express to you how much
I have appreciated this informational idea exchange.  At the time I joined you,
I was in deep depression and desperately seeking some spiritual connection.  I
had been interested in Eck for a long time and I finally met someone in Eck at a
Spiritual Faire in Portland Oregon about nine months ago.  The literature and
public presentation was quite compelling and I was invited to join the group in
Vancouver, Washington to see if it would be the answer to my quest.  Being the
skeptic I am, I wanted to first get an adverse opinion before I invested time
and money into the organization.  Over my long life, I have found that a good
investigative technique is to examine what the critics are saying about
something before getting too deep into the brainwashing that comes with
membership.  If the critics are expressing the same concerns that I might have,
I steer clear.  In very short order, it became clear to me that Eck was like any
other cult.  As near as I can figure, all religions are cults no matter how
large or small.  They depend upon control of the individual to one degree or
another.   They are administered by a clique that contains at least one
supposedly infallible person at the core, and use a supposedly unassailable
written authority as a basis for their power.  Anyway, I went back to my
practice of meditation and adopted a more Zen approach to living. By the way,
thank you, Sharon.  I have passed Seeds to some of my public school teacher
friends.  Heaven knows they can use all the help with tools to teach ethics.
Grateful never to have been Ecked,
John
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Sharon <brighttigress@...>
   To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 7:15 AM
   Subject: [eckankartruth] Seeds



   The Emperor's Seed

   An emperor in the Far East was growing old and knew it was time to
   choose His successor. Instead of choosing one of his assistants or
   his children, he decided something different.

   He called young people in the kingdom together one day.  He
   said, "It is time for me to step down and choose the next emperor. I
   have decided to choose one of you."

   The kids were shocked! But the emperor continued. "I am going to
   give each one of you a seed today, one very special seed. I want you
   to plant the seed, water it and come back here one year from today
   with what you have grown from this one seed. I will then judge the
   plants that you bring, and the one I choose will be the next emperor!"

   One boy named Ling was there that day and he, like the others,
   received a seed. He went home and excitedly told his mother the
   story. She helped him get a pot and planting soil, and he planted
   the seed and watered it carefully.

   Every day he would water it and watch to see if it had grown. After
   about 3 weeks, some of the other youths began to talk about their
   seeds and the plants that were beginning to grow. Ling kept checking
   his seed, but nothing ever grew. 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 5 weeks went by.
   Still nothing.

   By now, others were talking about their plants but Ling didn't have a
   plant, and he felt like a failure. 6 months went by; still nothing
   in Ling's pot. He just knew he had killed his seed. Everyone else
   had trees and tall plants, but he had nothing.

   Ling didn't say anything to his friends, however. He just kept
   waiting for his seed to grow. A year finally went by and all the
   youths of the kingdom brought their plants to the emperor for
   inspection.

   Ling told his mother that he wasn't going to take an empty pot but
   his Mother said he must be honest about what happened. Ling felt
   sick to his stomach, but he knew his Mother was right.

   He took his empty pot to the palace. When Ling arrived, he was
   amazed at the variety of plants grown by the other youths. They were
   beautiful-in all shapes and sizes. Ling put his empty pot on the
   floor and many of the other kinds laughed at him. A few felt sorry
   for him and just said, "Hey nice try."

   When the emperor arrived, he surveyed the room and greeted the young
   people. Ling just tried to hide in the back. "My, what great
   plants, trees and flowers you have grown," said the emperor. "Today,
   one of you will be appointed the next emperor!"

   All of a sudden, the emperor spotted Ling at the back of the room
   with his empty pot. He ordered his guards to bring him to the
   front. Ling was terrified. "The emperor knows I'm a failure! Maybe
   he will have me killed!"

   When Ling got to the front, the Emperor asked his name. "My name is
   Ling," he replied. All the kids were laughing and making fun of
   him. The emperor asked everyone to quiet down.

   He looked at Ling, and then announced to the crowd, "Behold your new
   emperor! His name is Ling!" Ling couldn't believe it. Ling
   couldn't even grow his seed. How could he be the new emperor?

   Then the emperor said, "One year ago today, I gave everyone here a
   seed. I told you to take the seed, plant it, water it, and bring it
   back to me today. But I gave you all boiled seeds, which would not
   grow. All of you, except Ling, have brought me trees and plants and
   flowers. When you found that the seed would not grow, you
   substituted another seed for the one I gave you.

   Ling was the only one with the courage and honesty to bring me a pot
   with my seed in it. Therefore, he is the one who will be the new
   emperor!"

   If you plant honesty, you will reap trust.
   If you plant goodness, you will reap friends.
   If you plant humility, you will reap greatness.
   If you plant perseverance, you will reap victory.
   If you plant consideration, you will reap harmony.
   If you plant hard work, you will reap success.
   If you plant forgiveness, you will reap reconciliation.
   If you plant openness, you will reap intimacy.
   If you plant patience, you will reap improvements.
   If you plant faith, you will reap miracles.
   But:
   If you plant dishonesty, you will reap distrust.


   If you plant selfishness, you will reap loneliness.
   If you plant pride, you will reap destruction.
   If you plant envy, you will reap trouble.
   If you plant laziness, you will reap stagnation.
   If you plant bitterness, you will reap isolation.
   If you plant greed, you will reap loss.
   If you plant gossip, you will reap enemies.
   If you plant worries, you will reap wrinkles.
   If you plant sin, you will reap guilt.

   So be careful what you plant now, it will determine what you will
   reap tomorrow.

   The seeds you now scatter will make life worse or better your life or
   the ones who will come after. Yes, someday, you will enjoy the fruits,
   or you will pay for the choices you plant today.





   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John!

Thanks so much for sharing your story!  You know, I think I'm going to revise
the automated form letter that goes out when people join, and ask that maybe
they post a little "intro" when they join.  I don't get automatic notices
anymore when people come & go, and rarely check the membership activity pages,
but I wonder sometimes who all the members are.  An odd thing, often people will
"subscribe" and then "unsubscribe" the same day, so I wonder why they
"subscribed" to begin with, since everything here (except posting "privileges"
and the membership list) is open to the public.  And I'm the only one who can
see the membership list.

Wasn't "Seeds" great?  I'm glad you're sharing it with teacher friends!  My
sixth grade teacher is responsible for my knowing that Twitch's plagiarism was
*wrong*, despite the cult's rationalizations and excuses.  I'd written a report
on birds, basically copied it straight out of the World Book Encyclopedia, but
didn't credit my source.  She explained how when you copy things, you need to
credit your source.  And something about how we may read a lot of sources and
learn from them, but should write what you've learned in your own words - just
don't sit down with the book in front of you and maybe just change a few things,
because that was wrong too.  And this was back in the "olden days" when Doug
Marman claims things were different, and plagiarism was acceptable!  I'm
laughing, remembering how all my teachers wore "nun's shoes" - black tie-oxfords
with thick chunky high heels - and my sixth grade teacher always kept her long
hair in a bun, with a hairnet over it!  It's funny, back then teachers were all
*really* old - doctors, too.  Nowadays they're all so young!  <ggg>   One of my
doctors doesn't look old enough to shave, and he looks like Doogie Howser!  I
hope I never slip & accidentally call him "Doogie" to his face.  On the other
hand, he's probably too young to remember that series.  <ggg>

I'm glad you never joined, because for some people, they may join just out of
curiousity at first, but you sort of get hooked.  I was looking through my early
discourses awhile back, and there was one with 30 different "spiritual
exercises" and you were supposed to do a different one every night! 
Well...Twitch knew exactly what he was doing, how to keep people "hooked" and
slowly & subtly control them, using what's actually self-hypnotism to implant
the cult's message.  And Klemp is keeping it going, using the same messages!

Hugs,

Sharon

Hi Everyone!

I just made a few little revisions to the automated "welcome" letter, and I'll
post it below for those who haven't seen it for awhile.

Yahoo makes changes every now and then, and maybe it's been there all along, but
I just saw that I can set the group to allow members to "hide" their email
addresses.  So, I checked that option, and hopefully when people sign up here,
they'll see they can do that.  That will avoid anyone accidentally posting their
email address when they don't want it to.  (I hope!)  But, this means that you
won't be able to respond or post here from your "home" email - for example, if
you receive individual emails or the daily digest, now you can't respond by
hitting "reply to" in your email program.  You'll have to come here, pop into
the post you want to respond to, and then write your response here.  This might
be an inconvenience, and I'm sorry, but I think it'll make it "safer" here for
those who might be worried.  And since I've changed it, I can't change it back
again.  Being able to post here with email was convenient for me, too - I
wouldn't have to come here and search through messages, and I could also just
"forward" things from a.r.e., and email them directly here without cutting &
pasting.

Oh - and because of this change, we won't be able to do "polls" here anymore,
which isn't a big deal because although I set up two, most of us didn't pay
attention to them, including me!  <ggg>

I also added to the welcome letter a line asking people to introduce themselves,
if they're comfortable.  I hope everyone who's already a member will thing about
doing that every so often.  There's also a "photos" section, if anyone wants to
post their photo, feel free - there's no way in hell I'll do that, though,
unless I can find my adorable naked-butt baby picture!!  But, I thought you
could probably post a text "photo" of yourself - haven't looked at that section,
but I'm sure it's possible.

By the way, I hope everyone knows that if you'd like to post jokes, or
informational and/or "inspirational" type things, please feel free!  I've always
wanted to do more of this type of thing, but I get busy - it's something Jan
Groenveld used to do, and when I got out of e-kult, it seemed like anything I'd
get from her was exactly just what I needed at the moment, either a joke, or
just general information on the cult-exiting experience.

Have a great weekend, everyone!

Hugs,

Sharon

New "Welcome" Letter:

Hi, and Welcome!!

Thank you for your interest in the "other side" of Paul Twitchell's
pseudo-spiritual protection
racket, where you will begin to learn what the cult doesn't want current and
potential new
members to know.

First of all, the purpose of this group is twofold.  1) It's to provide a "safe"
place for former
members to post freely, without harrassment, threats, intimidation, and so
forth, such as what
goes on at the newsgroup alt.religion.eckankar, and 2) To provide information
for the public...for
both "seekers" and concerned friends and family members, and current cult
members who have
questions and nice, healthy "doubts".

The purpose of this place is *not* to argue the "pros" and "cons" of the cult. 
It's mostly to focus
on the "cons".  <ggg>    I want former members to feel relatively "safe" here,
but after starting this
I realized that unfortunately, headers *can* be viewed.  For those who don't
know what this
means, and those who aren't veterans of a.r.e., well....it's what the online
cult "clergy" and "high
initiates" who do that sort of thing use to track and identify former members
who would prefer to
remain anonymous.   The best I can tell you is, if you signed up here with your
"home" email
address, well...check your preferences/options and see if it shows.  I would
recommend if you
want *some* level of anonymity, get yourself an "anonymous" Yahoo ID, and keep
your "profile"
there private.   You can still be tracked somewhat through the identifying
numbers in the
headers, but depending on your ISP, this may just mean that they'll know what
state you're
posting from.    I was an eckist when I learned that they do this (hints of
$cientology!!) and it's
one of the creepy things that helped me to wake up and get out.

All posts here are public -- which means anyone can come here as a "guest" and
read what's
posted.   The membership list *is* kept private and I am the only one who sees
it.  For those who
maybe want to talk about the issues in a more safe & "private" forum, I highly
recommend
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-cult-support.   This is a wonderful group and
you'll learn a lot, and it'll help put your own experience into a broader
perspective.
Other good (public)places to learn about cults in general is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomofmind  and the usenet newsgroup
alt.support.ex-cult.

I would recommend you visit the websites listed in the "bookmarks" section, and
also the "files"
section here.   And...please read through the archives here.  You'll find a lot
of interesting
information!

If you're "new" here and would like to post, I have to "approve" your post
before it appears in "messages".  After I'm more familiar with you and I'm sure
you're not a current cult
member, then the "pre-approval" setting will be taken off -- so before you post,
be sure what you
say is meant for public viewing.   I used to at times double-check with
"newbies" here about
things like whether or not they really wanted their names/addresses to show, but
I just can't do it
all the time.  And, I would appreciate if you find you've "subscribed" in error
and want to
"unsubscribe", please do it yourself as I may not be able to do it immediately. 
Same thing with
your setting...if you're getting daily emails of group postings, it's because
you've chosen that
option.  You can get individual emails, a "daily digest", or select "no emails -
web only."   I can
pop in and change the setting, but it's faster if you do it yourself.

Also, in 1/03 I found another option where members can choose to have their
email addresses hidden when they post.  Because of this, no one will be able to
repond to posts through "home" email - you'll have to come here to do it.  I've
done this to be sure that no one accidentally posts something with their email
address showing when they didn't want it to.

I hope you find "EckankarTruth" helpful.  And please...if you're a former member
and having a bit
of a rough time with it, just know you'll be okay.   I and all the other former
members here will be
happy to do whatever we can to help you out.  Also, it would be nice if you'd
post a little "intro" message when you join, tell a bit about yourself, your
experience with the cult, whatever you're comfortable with.

Hugs,

Sharon

Hi everyone,

I am a women sixty one years old.  I have four adult
children and a husband who has Parkinson's and
Dementia and is currently in a rest home.

I just had the courage yesterday to make the decision
to leave the cult after many years of disatisfaction.I
joined in 1979 and although very happy with the inner
teachings have never been happy with the outer
organisation.

One of the things which annoys me the most is the
membership fees.  The cult must be drawing in a large
amount of money but the chelas never know exactly what
it is spent on.  In New Zealand where I live it is
against the law not to publish a finacial account at
an annual meeting.  This is not being done here and
that annoys me.  I know that in New Zealand the money
raised is being extravagantly used.

Other points are the secrecy regarding Darwin, and the
way we are told that dire consequences will follow if
we leave.

This group is a life saviour because it is through
contact here and some other groups that I have had the
courage to make the decision to leave.

What I am concerned about now is that frineds in ECK
are going to be really annoyed with me for leaving.

One recently was horrified because I chose to go and
play sport instead of going to a discussion class.
Because of this I think it may be best if I just say
that I have stood aside from all the outer works. It
is not really their business that I have actually left
and am not renewing my membership.

Regards,
Zirkar


__________________________________________________
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--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, <zirkar@y...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>

Hi, and Welcome!!

By the way, before I "approved" your post I removed your name because I thought
perhaps you might not want it to show here.  Your future posts will show up here
immediately without going through the "approval" process, so if you don't want
your name to show, check your settings under "My Account" and remove your name. 
Somewhere, I'm not sure where, there will also be an option where you can "hide"
your email address...whoops, except that's already appeared on your post!  Oh,
well...I do the best I can, but don't always think of everything.

By the way, a lot of people don't realize but when you sign up for a new
account, Yahoo will *automatically* put you on a bunch of advertising lists
which will get you unwanted email, so you might want to pop into "marketing
preferences" in "my account" and de-select what you don't want.  Some e-mailing
lists are okay, depends on your interests.

> I am a women sixty one years old.  I have four adult
> children and a husband who has Parkinson's and
> Dementia and is currently in a rest home.
>

Any grandchildren?  I have three!!  I have a grown son and daughter.  My son &
his wife don't have children yet, but *do* want some eventually!  They're still
newlyweds.  Oh - they've blessed me with a granddog, two grandcats, and a
grandbird, Spike the Cockatiel - he can do a wolf whistle, but is having a hard
time learning to say "Here, kitty!"  <gg>  The dog & cats are afraid of him -
he's loose most of the time, and his "big scary bird" act with outspread wings
keeps them respectful.

Sorry about your husband - we've had Alzheimer's in my family, and it's not
easy.


> I just had the courage yesterday to make the decision
> to leave the cult after many years of disatisfaction.I
> joined in 1979 and although very happy with the inner
> teachings have never been happy with the outer
> organisation.
>

I have great admiration for those who have the courage and honesty to leave
after 20+ years, especially when they've developed friendships with other
eckists, and have been active in the organization.  I can't imagine how hard it
must be!!  I was in for less than 15 years, and not that close to other eckists
- didn't even have the opportunity to attend seminars until my last year or so,
and these seminars actually gave me more "doubts".

I hope you realize that the "inner" teachings are available freely from many
other sources, and not even "spiritual" sources!  I found them all over while I
was in the cult - even in women's magazines and the Reader's Digest, but I'd
immediately slap on the "ecklabel" and delude myself.  Twitch set it up that
way.



> One of the things which annoys me the most is the
> membership fees.  The cult must be drawing in a large
> amount of money but the chelas never know exactly what
> it is spent on.  In New Zealand where I live it is
> against the law not to publish a finacial account at
> an annual meeting.  This is not being done here and
> that annoys me.  I know that in New Zealand the money
> raised is being extravagantly used.
>

This is a very interesting law!  To be honest, I don't know the laws for
non-profits here in the states.  I'm familiar with many Christian churches that
publish annual statements - of course, that doesn't mean that they're entirely
accurate.  From what's been going on in Catholicism lately, it's obvious that a
lot of money can be hidden - but a lot of charities work that way, too.

I wrote MN asking where the money went around the time I left, but naturally
didn't get an answer.  I've seen reports saying that the money is used to
"subsidize" memberships in countries like Africa where members can't afford to
pay, but membership materials & discourses don't cost the cult very much to send
them out.  And...members *donate* books to send out, translations are done by
volunteers, etc.

How is the money being used extravagantly in New Zealand?

As far as I know, any funds for local expenses must be raised locally, and at
least a portion of these must be sent to MN - but MN does *not* support any
local "satsang" organizations financially.


> Other points are the secrecy regarding Darwin,

I'd read Darwin's bio from the library before I joined - and I asked about him
at my first eckmeeting.  I was told that he was no longer the master, then the
subject was changed.  I thought it was odd, and I wondered - but I definitely
got the unspoken message that it was not to be discussed!  When I read in the
eckbooks that he'd "fallen", well...that only raised more questions, which
didn't get answered until after I left.

There's information in the "files" section here, and I believe there's a link to
at least one of the "pro-Darwin" sites in the links section.

I think he was treated badly, but...I certainly don't think he was a "master"!!


and the
> way we are told that dire consequences will follow if
> we leave.
>

New-age "hellfire"!!  <ggg>


> This group is a life saviour because it is through
> contact here and some other groups that I have had the
> courage to make the decision to leave.
>

Although I had some "doubts" over the years, leaving never seemed to be a
possibility because I truly believed that "the eck" (and membership) was "life
itself" so how could we leave?  I thought my "doubts" were just things I needed
to overcome.  Duh!!

I'm glad this group has helped you!  You know, current members don't realize
that people don't leave just because they've become blinded by the Lane
material, and become fanatical fundamental Branch Lane Davidians! <ggg>  Hearing
what other former members had to say, and seeing that the official cult
"teachings" about those who leave just wasn't true, as well as the horrible
actions of the cult and its representatives, were more important.

I'm glad I've been able to help in getting more information available to the
public here on the internet.  The internet has been helpful in exposing so many
cults, it's wonderful!!


> What I am concerned about now is that frineds in ECK
> are going to be really annoyed with me for leaving.
>

Hopefully they'll remain friends, but from what I've heard, that's rare.  I hope
you have friends outside of the cult!



> One recently was horrified because I chose to go and
> play sport instead of going to a discussion class.

I used to feel guilty, because when my youngest was old enough that I had more
freedom, I'd skip eckthings to do things that were, well...just not eckthings. 
A big one was doing volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity.


> Because of this I think it may be best if I just say
> that I have stood aside from all the outer works. It
> is not really their business that I have actually left
> and am not renewing my membership.
>

It can get *really* uncomfortable getting into discussions about leaving with
eckist friends.  It's really being stuck between a rock and a hard place,
because you don't want to hurt them, but on the other hand it might be hard to
keep your opinions to yourself, and possibly encourage them in their
"delusions".  So, I agree with the way you're going to handle it.  Actually,
that's an "ecky" way to do it - just say it's between you and "the master"!!! 
According to "the teachings" they should respect your privacy, etc.

Anyway, another thing that's wonderful about the internet is the way I can
"chat" with people from neat "exotic" places like New Zealand!  I saw a travel
show recently on your country, and it looks *so* beautiful!!  Of course, people
in other countries probably think the same way about America.  Right now where I
live it's freezing cold & snowy, and I'm just not in the mood for it, plus
what's worse is we've got several months of winter yet to go!  I warmed up a bit
the other day, seeing Australian temperatures on a "Weather Channel" map!

My favorite sport is fishing, and although I've done a lot of winter fishing in
recent years, even with snow on the ground, this winter seems different and I'm
perfectly content to stay indoors.  Still have trout in the freezer from last
year, anyway, and I'm sick of them.  I think it's time to toss them - I also
feed chunks to my turtle, but this winter he's "hibernating" for the first time
and not eating - not even live worms and "feeder" goldfish!

Take care, keep in touch, and just hang in there - you've still got your
"inner", it has *nothing* to do with cult membership.  You may go through some
rough spots, but believe me, you'll find being "out" is just wonderful!!  Your
connection to "Spirit" will become even more clear and true!

Hugs,

Sharon

Hi there,

I left the org two years ago (next month), I was a member 13 years.  The first
thing I did was to write a note to MN asking that they remove my name from
membership, I received a letter from them saying that my initiations would be
removed, etc, never once did they ask Why I was leaving.  The second thing I did
was go by the eck center and donate most of my books, I kept a few just to
remind me in case I weakened:).

I asked about Darwin too, never did receive a satisfactory answer..sigh.

If there is anything I can do to help you, just ask.  (Sharon can members email
privately?  Not sure how you have this set up)  Anyway, Zirkar if you need to
vent go right ahead.  Oh one more thing, I kept a journal, that 'act' dissipated
the anger and sense of betrayal, still it was about 18 months before 'it'
cleared out.

Thanks,

Sandra

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "sandrafdnc <sandrafdnc@y...>"
<sandrafdnc@y...> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I left the org two years ago (next month), I was a member 13 years.  The first
thing I did was to write a note to MN asking that they remove my name from
membership, I received a letter from them saying that my initiations would be
removed, etc, never once did they ask Why I was leaving.  The second thing I did
was go by the eck center and donate most of my books, I kept a few just to
remind me in case I weakened:).
>

Sandra, I don't remember, but did your letter also include that subtly
threatening line about how if you resigned, you wouldn't be allowed to re-join
for six months, and at that time, you'd have to start back at the beginning?  
That's why they don't just simply remove your name, and send that letter asking
you to sign and return it - they're hoping the "threats" will kick in and you'll
change your mind.

They don't have to ask people why they resign.  They *know*!  <gg>



> I asked about Darwin too, never did receive a satisfactory answer..sigh.
>
> If there is anything I can do to help you, just ask.  (Sharon can members
email privately?  Not sure how you have this set up)


I looked around more, and if a member selects the "hide email" option, evidently
they can't email to post messages to the group.  If you don't "hide" your email
address, you can still post via email.

If you're replying to a message from "here", the "to" field is a drop-down box
so you can choose to respond to the group, to the person who wrote the post, or
to me (eckankartruth owner).  Probably if you're "hiding" your email, then no
one will be able to reply to you privately.  And I'm not sure, but I believe if
you're "hiding" your own email, maybe you can still send private emails using
the option on the drop-down box, but you'd get a "warning" that your email
address will show on the email you're sending.

Hugs,

Sharon

I've also posted this booklist in the "files" section here.

Recommended Reading On Cult Issues

by Jan Groenveld

Just a reminder of some of the books I suggest for people to read to
help them overcome manipulation etc:

Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
http://www.freeminds.org/sales/books.htm

And his new book:
Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves by Steven Hassan
http://www.freeminds.org/sales/books.htm

Captive Hearts, Captive Minds : Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Other
Abusive Relationships; Janja Lalich, Madeleine Landau Tobias;
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0897931440/104-8647382-9674050

Out of the Cults and into the Church : Understanding & Encouraging Ex-Cultists;
Janis Hutchinson;
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0825428858/104-8647382-9674050


Recovery from Cults : Help for Victims of Psychological and Spiritual Abuse;
Michael D. Langone,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0393313212/104-8647382-9674050

12 'Christian' Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy : Relief from False
Assumptions -- Henry Cloud, John Townsend
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310494915/104-8647382-9674050

Transforming Grace: Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love -- Jerry Bridges
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0891096566/104-8647382-9674050

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual
Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church by David Johnson &
Jeff VanVonderen
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556611609/104-8647382-9674050

Twisted Scriptures : A Path to Freedom from Abusive Churches; Mary Alice
Chrnalogar,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964958805/104-8647382-9674050

Faith That Hurts, Faith That Heals/Understanding the Fine Line Between
Healthy Faith and Spiritual Abuse by Stephen Arterburn, Jack Felton
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0840796579104-8647382-9674050

When God Becomes a Drug : Breaking the Chains of Religious Addiction
and Abuse by Leo Booth, John Bradshaw
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874777038/104-8647382-9674050

Emotional Blackmail : When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation
and Guilt to Manipulate You by Susan Forward, Donna Frazier
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060928972/104-8647382-9674050

In Sheep's Clothing : Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People
by George K. Simon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/096516960X/104-8647382-9674050

Letting Go of Anger : The 10 Most Common Anger Styles and What to Do About Them
by Ron Potter-Efron, Pat Potter-Efron,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1572240016/104-8647382-9674050

Faith That Hurts, Faith That Heals/Understanding the Fine Line Between
Healthy Faith and Spiritual Abuse by Stephen Arterburn, Jack Felton
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0840796579/104-8647382-9674050

When God Becomes a Drug : Breaking the Chains of Religious Addiction
and Abuse by Leo Booth, John Bradshaw
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874777038/104-8647382-9674050

Serpents in the Manger : Overcoming Abusive Christianity
by Jerry L., Ph.D. Harris, Melody J., Ph.D. Milam
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1569800170/104-8647382-9674050

Emotional Blackmail : When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation
and Guilt to Manipulate You by Susan Forward, Donna Frazier
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060928972/104-8647382-9674050


Damaged Disciples : Casualties of Authoritarian Churches and the Shepherding
Movement by Ron Burks, Vicki Burks
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310576113/104-8647382-9674050

Letting Go of Anger : The 10 Most Common Anger Styles and What to Do About Them
by Ron Potter-Efron, Pat Potter-Efron,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1572240016/104-8647382-9674050

People-Reading : How We Control Others, How They Control Us
by Ernst G., Dr. Beier, Evans G. Valens
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812862635/104-8647382-9674050

The Art of Profiling : Reading People Right the First Time by Dan Korem,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963910337/104-8647382-9674050

The Resilient Self : How Survivors of Troubled Families Rise Above Adversity
by Steven J. Wolin, Stephen J. Wolin, Sybil Wolin (Contributor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394583574/104-8647382-9674050

The Resilient Spirit : Transforming Suffering into Insight and Renewal; Polly
Young-Eisendrath
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201517450/104-8647382-9674050

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
<95yukon@e...> wrote:
> My wife is very much into it.  I have good friends that are also, but
> I will find out how much of a friend some of them are as I go in my
> own direction. They say that one has the freedom to follow your own
> path, but then I suppose that isn't good if it isn't eckankar.
>

I recently ran across something you might find helpful in dealing with your wife
and friends, written by an ex-JW - see:
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp.htm


And if you back up to: http://www.freeminds.org/psych/psych.htm  -
there's a great list of helpful articles.  It may not be apparent, but there's
actually not a lot of difference between e-kult and the JWs!

> I'm curious if it is necessary to write to Minneapolis and completely
> ensure they know that I'm severing all ties with them, or just to
> walk away.


Do whatever feels right to you!  I wanted to be completely free, and not bound
by that "five-year rest" option.  It was sort of like manifesting my "inner" on
the "outer".  <ggg>

Hugs,

Sharon

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon <brighttigress@y...>"
<brighttigress@y...> wrote:
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "sandrafdnc <sandrafdnc@y...>"
<sandrafdnc@y...> wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I left the org two years ago (next month), I was a member 13 years.  The
first thing I did was to write a note to MN asking that they remove my name from
membership, I received a letter from them saying that my initiations would be
removed, etc, never once did they ask Why I was leaving.  The second thing I did
was go by the eck center and donate most of my books, I kept a few just to
remind me in case I weakened:).
> >
>
> Sandra, I don't remember, but did your letter also include that subtly
threatening line about how if you resigned, you wouldn't be allowed to re-join
for six months, and at that time, you'd have to start back at the beginning?  
That's why they don't just simply remove your name, and send that letter asking
you to sign and return it - they're hoping the "threats" will kick in and you'll
change your mind.
~~~~~~~~~

Yes, that was the one :), I sent you a copy of the letter,  I thought it
arrogant of them to think I would want to start all over,  hmmm wonder if there
are many that waited years, lost their initiations only to come back as a 1st?
Not many I bet.

~~~~~

> They don't have to ask people why they resign.  They *know*!  <gg>
~~~~
hahaha
~~~~~~
>
> > I asked about Darwin too, never did receive a satisfactory answer..sigh.
> >
> > If there is anything I can do to help you, just ask.  (Sharon can members
email privately?  Not sure how you have this set up)
>
>
> I looked around more, and if a member selects the "hide email" option,
evidently they can't email to post messages to the group.  If you don't "hide"
your email address, you can still post via email.
>
> If you're replying to a message from "here", the "to" field is a drop-down box
so you can choose to respond to the group, to the person who wrote the post, or
to me (eckankartruth owner).  Probably if you're "hiding" your email, then no
one will be able to reply to you privately.  And I'm not sure, but I believe if
you're "hiding" your own email, maybe you can still send private emails using
the option on the drop-down box, but you'd get a "warning" that your email
address will show on the email you're sending.
>
> Hugs,
>
> Sharon
~~~~~~~

Thats right, a warning does show on the yahoo page, and of course it is up to
the receipent if they want to respond.  Hey, I'm a little old lady, (I'll be 60
in 10 days:), I forget these things(chuckles).

Take care,

Sandra

Hi Sharon, Weatherby and others that have replied to
my introduction letter.
Weatherby I had heard that there was a chela down at
Antartica a few years ago and it is great to hear from
you now. Thank you.
Well Sharon I have four grandsons, two grandaughters a
stepgrandson and a step great grandson.  They range
from sixteen years to the littlest fourteen months.
they bring me much joy especially now that I am living
alone.
I mentioned money being wasted here in N.Z.  Well I
must tell you a little more about my self. I am (was)
a sixth initiae, member of the clergy, an initiator
and ESA.  Until a few years ago when I resigned
because of my husbands health I was the N.Z. Eck
president and member of the board.
MY main concern is that the RESA phoned me freqently
(she lives in the North island I am in the South)on
week day mornings when our toll calls are the highest
rate very expensive.  (Weekends and after 6pm in the
evenings are very cheap, $3 for as long as you wish
top rate was 1.75 a minute). She would speak for up to
one and half hours, twenty minutes of this would be
business and the rest about her personal life.  It
would annoy me but I never said anything because she
was the RESA and I would say to myself well that is
just her not Eck. (I am still being phoned
occasionally in my capacity as an ESA and still at
peak times)
It cost a lot of money for the board to travel to
Wellington from all over N.Z. to board meetings which
were held frequently and yet when I asked for expenses
for my work I was told we (Eckankar) could not afford
it so I would have to pay for it myself.  That was
very expensive for me as because of Bill's health we
were on a very basic pension, I had given up my work
to take care of him.  Also in these days of
technolgical communication travel for the board is
unneccessary.

Re friends, my four closest friends are in Eck, one of
whom I phoned yesterday and spoke to becasue I know
that she is unhappy too and she is being very
supportive of me and you may hear from her soon
because she has not renewed her mebership either.  The
friend dearest to me joined with me in 1979 and she is
going to be devasted when she realises I have left but
we will remain friends because our friendship extends
beyond Eck.
What I am concerned about is that the Eck community
throughtout N.Z. is going to be shocked because I am
(was)  the only ESA in the South Island, there are two
in the North, I am the only Initiator in the very deep
South and there is another in Christchurch. Because of
my former positon as president I am well known
throughtout the land.  This is one of the reasons why
I have taken so long to make the decision to leave
because many of these people depended on me. When I
received the form to renew my membership though I knew
that I had to make up mind as I could not carry on as
I felt I was deceiving people. With the inner help I
just knew it was time to put myself first and leave.
And do you know that this morning I awoke feeling
light, releived and I can still hear the sound!

I had been wondering if I ought to notify  Chanhassen
and have decided not to because they will ask for my
Initaors and ESA hadnbooks back and I do not feel like
spending the cost of sending them back either.  I will
tell the RESA I have stood aside (by email) and she
will know soon I have left because Chanhassen will
notify her just as they do if anyone else leaves.

Thank you once agin for the support I am receiving  it
is most heartening and although we are a great
distance apart I feel you are all very close to me.
Regards and love,
Zirkar



__________________________________________________
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One thing I noticed over the years in eckankar was that everyone is absolutely
expendable!  When I left, I was the longest lived chela in the mid size city
where I lived.  There was one individual who had a higher initiation.  I was a
member for 28 years when I departed.

As to Zirkers feelings about letting people down by leaving.....I think she is
doing the absolute right thing in leaving if she is not 100% dedicated to
eckankar and has NO doubts about eckankar.

At those esa sessions, people depended upon us to be real eckists....real and
total believers.  If someone has doubts and really isn't sure about eckankar and
its masters, it really IS deceitful to let those people or anyone else think we
are totally committed.

Personally, I had difficulty in worship services where I was propagating the
pathway.  I had completely lost any feeling that HK was a master.  I honestly
felt by that time that the order of the vairagi was a PT Myth.  How could I tell
people I felt this way and still do worship services?

It really does come down to being spiritually honest with ourselves and those we
contact in our lives.

I, like so many thousands before me, had come to the choice of following my own
inner truths or those that are taught by eckankar....and they definitely were no
longer the same thing!......Like all those thousands, I opted to go with truth,
and initiations, and status in eckankar be damned!

From my current state of mind, If a high profile initiate in eckankar leaves, it
SERVES the GOOD of the members of eckankar, in that it can trigger doubt and
questions in them.....And Doubt and Questions are GOOD for our true growth in
that they cause us to investigate and learn as opposed to blindly following an
outside doctrine.

Zirker, I wouldn't worry about being the only esa in your area.  The org will
just appoint another in no time at all.

On a side note, a few months ago, on A.R.E., we had a "What's Your Secret Word"
contest!  Even amongst that small group or 30 or so people, so many of us had
shared the same secret word during our 2nd initiations.....it was really quite
funny, in that for years, all those people had believed that God had granted
them a completely individual, personally tailored word for their spiritual
unfoldment, when in fact, it was just another silly word picked out by Paul T
and published on a short list in the initiator book.

I'd keep your book if it was me.  You might want to refer to it later.

I sold off most of my eck stuff.....the eckists on eBay had a minifit when they
started seeing discourses being put up for auction.  The stuff sold quite well. 
I actually got $60.00 for an old cheap copper/bronze pendent with Darwin's
silhouette around Pauls profile.....I think they originally cost $3.00 through
eckankar.

Luck in your journeys
Paul


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Marie Patrick
   To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: January 11, 2003 12:26 PM
   Subject: [eckankartruth] Thanks For the Feedback


   Hi Sharon, Weatherby and others that have replied to
   my introduction letter.
   Weatherby I had heard that there was a chela down at
   Antartica a few years ago and it is great to hear from
   you now. Thank you.
   Well Sharon I have four grandsons, two grandaughters a
   stepgrandson and a step great grandson.  They range
   from sixteen years to the littlest fourteen months.
   they bring me much joy especially now that I am living
   alone.
   I mentioned money being wasted here in N.Z.  Well I
   must tell you a little more about my self. I am (was)
   a sixth initiae, member of the clergy, an initiator
   and ESA.  Until a few years ago when I resigned
   because of my husbands health I was the N.Z. Eck
   president and member of the board.
   MY main concern is that the RESA phoned me freqently
   (she lives in the North island I am in the South)on
   week day mornings when our toll calls are the highest
   rate very expensive.  (Weekends and after 6pm in the
   evenings are very cheap, $3 for as long as you wish
   top rate was 1.75 a minute). She would speak for up to
   one and half hours, twenty minutes of this would be
   business and the rest about her personal life.  It
   would annoy me but I never said anything because she
   was the RESA and I would say to myself well that is
   just her not Eck. (I am still being phoned
   occasionally in my capacity as an ESA and still at
   peak times)
   It cost a lot of money for the board to travel to
   Wellington from all over N.Z. to board meetings which
   were held frequently and yet when I asked for expenses
   for my work I was told we (Eckankar) could not afford
   it so I would have to pay for it myself.  That was
   very expensive for me as because of Bill's health we
   were on a very basic pension, I had given up my work
   to take care of him.  Also in these days of
   technolgical communication travel for the board is
   unneccessary.

   Re friends, my four closest friends are in Eck, one of
   whom I phoned yesterday and spoke to becasue I know
   that she is unhappy too and she is being very
   supportive of me and you may hear from her soon
   because she has not renewed her mebership either.  The
   friend dearest to me joined with me in 1979 and she is
   going to be devasted when she realises I have left but
   we will remain friends because our friendship extends
   beyond Eck.
   What I am concerned about is that the Eck community
   throughtout N.Z. is going to be shocked because I am
   (was)  the only ESA in the South Island, there are two
   in the North, I am the only Initiator in the very deep
   South and there is another in Christchurch. Because of
   my former positon as president I am well known
   throughtout the land.  This is one of the reasons why
   I have taken so long to make the decision to leave
   because many of these people depended on me. When I
   received the form to renew my membership though I knew
   that I had to make up mind as I could not carry on as
   I felt I was deceiving people. With the inner help I
   just knew it was time to put myself first and leave.
   And do you know that this morning I awoke feeling
   light, releived and I can still hear the sound!

   I had been wondering if I ought to notify  Chanhassen
   and have decided not to because they will ask for my
   Initaors and ESA hadnbooks back and I do not feel like
   spending the cost of sending them back either.  I will
   tell the RESA I have stood aside (by email) and she
   will know soon I have left because Chanhassen will
   notify her just as they do if anyone else leaves.

   Thank you once agin for the support I am receiving  it
   is most heartening and although we are a great
   distance apart I feel you are all very close to me.
   Regards and love,
   Zirkar



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "al_radzik <al_radzik@y...>"
<al_radzik@y...> wrote:
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "dreamlillyanne
> <AnneWalton@c...>" <AnneWalton@c...> wrote:
> > Has anyone ever wondered, questioned this belief in saints and
> > masters that helps lure people to religion/cults/orgs like
Eckankar?
> > I wonder that the whole concept/belief is just that a belief
that is
> > reinforced by our belief in it.  The belief in mastership really
was
> > a hook for me and now I find no credence in carrying such a
belief
> > at all anymore.
> >
> > Anne
>
> Hi Anne. Weren't you just recently posting on a.r.e. as an Eckist?
> Just wondering if you "jumped the fence"?
> Anyway, welcome aboard. Now maybe you can see the lighter side of
> Alfie (the dark kal god of Evil Incarnate!!!)
>
> Alfie
>
> Still kicking and happy in Central Jersey!!!!

Hi Alfie,

Yes, I am FREE of the horseshit, lol.  About September I think.
Took me a few tries, but I am on the path of my own making now and a
very happy camper.  It was good for me to try on the shoes of
defender of the faith.  Nothing could have made it more clear than
trying to explain, defend, even understand, the unbelievable amount
of shit that org is up to, lol.  I am eternally grateful to Cher
Gruendemann, hands down, for showing me beyond a doubt that the
religion is a sham.  I will never be able to thank her enough.  Her
personal attention and harrassment of me and others on Eckankar
lists and on a.r.e. showed me I was definatley in the wrong place.
I am blessed not to have spent anymore time learning I am so much
more than this bullshit pack of lies religion that uses these
teachings to delude and exploit it's devoted "followers."

Anne

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
<95yukon@e...> wrote:
> I've heard that one of the topics that former eckists face when
> talking to members that remain is the one where the member claims
> that they saw eck masters in their dreams even before becoming
> members, therefore how can you deny it isn't real?...

Do they know, at all that Paul made them up?  Beyond that, the
masters, as they are painted (by a now ex-member who says she made
it up), have rather generic faces.  It would be easy to decide the
faces in dreams and these made up faces are the same, to me.
Remember, searchers WANT these things to be real.  I did.  Finding
out Paul had made them up based on other "saints" and "masters," was
a real devastating blow to me.  But, on the other hand, I also knew
how powerful self hypnosis (the spiritual exercises are based on
that)is and that we can program ouselves.  It's not just one
technique of mind control, but several mixed together with the
knowing the our unconscious minds are very creative and will deliver
just what we want to see and here if we use the right techniques.
Paul knew that.  He used our natural creative abilities against his
students to decieve and control them into believing he is God.  All
religions do this to one extent or another.  For me, it was time to
grow up and take responsibility for my spiritual life w/o masters
and saints and all the ridiculous trappings that have nothing to do
with the inner life and experience.

Anne

Anne,
So nice to see you here....It makes me so happy to see that some of the
horseshit we have to endure in A.R.E. plants seeds and get some folks to ask the
really personal questions that lead to a vision of actual truth.....Of course,
this individual to everyone and is very personal......exactly the opposite of
eckankar and its myths.
Have fun with the new freedom
Sword (Paul)
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: dreamlillyanne <AnneWalton@...>
   To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: January 11, 2003 5:56 PM
   Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Saints and Masters


   --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "al_radzik <al_radzik@y...>"
   <al_radzik@y...> wrote:
   > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "dreamlillyanne
   > <AnneWalton@c...>" <AnneWalton@c...> wrote:
   > > Has anyone ever wondered, questioned this belief in saints and
   > > masters that helps lure people to religion/cults/orgs like
   Eckankar?
   > > I wonder that the whole concept/belief is just that a belief
   that is
   > > reinforced by our belief in it.  The belief in mastership really
   was
   > > a hook for me and now I find no credence in carrying such a
   belief
   > > at all anymore.
   > >
   > > Anne
   >
   > Hi Anne. Weren't you just recently posting on a.r.e. as an Eckist?
   > Just wondering if you "jumped the fence"?
   > Anyway, welcome aboard. Now maybe you can see the lighter side of
   > Alfie (the dark kal god of Evil Incarnate!!!)
   >
   > Alfie
   >
   > Still kicking and happy in Central Jersey!!!!

   Hi Alfie,

   Yes, I am FREE of the horseshit, lol.  About September I think.
   Took me a few tries, but I am on the path of my own making now and a
   very happy camper.  It was good for me to try on the shoes of
   defender of the faith.  Nothing could have made it more clear than
   trying to explain, defend, even understand, the unbelievable amount
   of shit that org is up to, lol.  I am eternally grateful to Cher
   Gruendemann, hands down, for showing me beyond a doubt that the
   religion is a sham.  I will never be able to thank her enough.  Her
   personal attention and harrassment of me and others on Eckankar
   lists and on a.r.e. showed me I was definatley in the wrong place.
   I am blessed not to have spent anymore time learning I am so much
   more than this bullshit pack of lies religion that uses these
   teachings to delude and exploit it's devoted "followers."

   Anne


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Welcome to the true meaning of inner mastership!
Paul (Sword)
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: dreamlillyanne <AnneWalton@...>
   To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: January 11, 2003 6:10 PM
   Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Discussions with eckists - dreams of masters
before joining?


   --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240 <95yukon@e...>"
   <95yukon@e...> wrote:
   > I've heard that one of the topics that former eckists face when
   > talking to members that remain is the one where the member claims
   > that they saw eck masters in their dreams even before becoming
   > members, therefore how can you deny it isn't real?...

   Do they know, at all that Paul made them up?  Beyond that, the
   masters, as they are painted (by a now ex-member who says she made
   it up), have rather generic faces.  It would be easy to decide the
   faces in dreams and these made up faces are the same, to me.
   Remember, searchers WANT these things to be real.  I did.  Finding
   out Paul had made them up based on other "saints" and "masters," was
   a real devastating blow to me.  But, on the other hand, I also knew
   how powerful self hypnosis (the spiritual exercises are based on
   that)is and that we can program ouselves.  It's not just one
   technique of mind control, but several mixed together with the
   knowing the our unconscious minds are very creative and will deliver
   just what we want to see and here if we use the right techniques.
   Paul knew that.  He used our natural creative abilities against his
   students to decieve and control them into believing he is God.  All
   religions do this to one extent or another.  For me, it was time to
   grow up and take responsibility for my spiritual life w/o masters
   and saints and all the ridiculous trappings that have nothing to do
   with the inner life and experience.

   Anne


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]