Wow! a.r.e. is going to have a field day with this one!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/12/10/norway.ufo.light/index.html

No. They would harass your mother with phone calls and threaten to call your
work if you didn't post "responsibly".


--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I'll give them an Eck story. A short one to boot. I joined a cult, I wasted
twelve years. I believed that made-up characters were really in my dreams and
then I discovered Sharon and David Lane on the internet and came back to my
senses.
>
> Do you think they'd print my story??
>
>

I'll give them an Eck story. A short one to boot. I joined a cult, I wasted
twelve years. I believed that made-up characters were really in my dreams and
then I discovered Sharon and David Lane on the internet and came back to my
senses.

Do you think they'd print my story??

----------

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
wrote:
>
> This is a crosspost from ESA---
>
> The following "Announcement" is displayed
> in Eckankar's December 2009 H.I. Letter:
>
> "Spotlight on High Initiates
>
> You are invited to share your experience
> as an ECK H.I. with your fellow Brothers
> of the Leaf. Please send any of the following:
>
> * Your personal experiences and insights
> relating to the Mahanta, the ECK teachings,
> and serving as an ECK H.I. [the Negative
> too?]
>
> * Photos of H.I.'s in ECK activities, especially
> in action, sharing and enjoying ECK.
> ["in action" means no poses with fake
> smiles?]
>
> * Poems that express your love for the
> SUGMAD and the Mahanta, and being
> a Co-worker in ECK. [When will HK
> "share" his poems?]
>
> Send submissions to: Eckankar, Att: The
> H.I. Letter, PO Box 2000, Chanhassen, MN
> 55317-2000 USA. Or e-mail them to
> hil@... (Submissions may be
> edited for clarity and length.) Thanks for
> sharing!"
>
> ******
> That last disclaimer of "submissions may
> be edited for clarity" is interesting since
> H.I.s should already have mastered the
> 4th Mental Plane and, thus, have "clarity"
> of mind. LOL!
> ******
>
> Next, is an example of the kind
> of delusional, ECKie B.S., story
> that Klemp is looking for:
>
> "Of Science and The Shariyat
>
> I read an article in Scientific American
> (May 2008) reporting that an individual's
> genetic code may continuously change
> after birth due to various environmental
> influences. This got me thinking. This
> discovery may open the door of science
> to finding real biological transformations
> and HEALING EFFECTS of LONG-TERM
> PRACTICING OF SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES.
> To me, this all seems to correspond
> to the 'rechemicalization' process mentioned
> in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book 1, p. 143.
> So let's hear it for the Spiritual Excercises
> of ECK. Hip-hip, hooray!" - Phil Dunn, FL.
>
> [My CAPS were added to the above
> "insights."]
>
> ******
>
> Yes! Look at how the "Healing Effects
> of Long-Term Practicing of Spiritual
> Disciplines/Exercises" have helped
> Klemp! When does the "Benjamin
> Button" effect kick-in? LOL!
>
> Below is the old (1970) PT Shariyat
> quote that inspired this H.I.'s delayed
> and delusional revelation concerning
> Science [that one's genetic code may
> be continuously changing] and the
> ability to use this for healing via the
> Spiritual Exercises. It has long been
> known that too much stress can have
> negative effects and that meditation
> can alleviate stress. However, this H.I.
> concludes that these changes in one's
> genetic code could be affected, for healing
> purposes, by using the "spiritual exercises."
>
> He supports his conclusions by making
> a correlation with this article of scientific
> discovery and with Twitchell's karmic
> "rechemicalization" theory. However, this
> H.I. misinterprets Paul's PR warning/threat
> that unless one follows the Living ECK Master
> (LEM) they will build up an unbalanced
> amount of "bad" karma.
>
> Paul, basically, states that one Should
> Not be Obsessed with seeking Good
> Health effects because this is Karmic
> Attachment to the Physical Body. ECK
> is the "Middle Path" (neither for or against)
> and, thus, Detachment (from Lower
> Plane effects) should be practiced in
> order to reach "the gates of heaven."
> Thus, one's Attention Should Not be
> on the good or bad (health and/or healing),
> nor on the positive and negative effects
> of the physical body or physical world.
>
> "Burning off of karma is the state of
> rechemicalization. It is something man
> must go through while living on this earth.
> Man should be able to do this under the
> Living ECK Master. If he is under any other
> guide here on earth, this is NOT likely to
> happen. He will be receiving more bad
> karma than good and will be overbalanced
> on the negative side. He needs to be
> balanced only in the middle way, not
> on either side. Only when he can walk
> the middle path of ECK can he leave
> the Wheel of the Eighty-Four and find
> the gates of heaven."
>
> What's really interesting is that in
> Klemp's front page article he uses
> a lot of "BUTS" when giving advice
> on healthy eating. Nowhere did
> Klemp mention doing the "Spiritual
> Exercises of ECK" for healing or for
> health!
>
> Plus, isn't it interesting that Klemp
> didn't notice this H.I.'s misinterpretation
> (or his own) of Twitchell's karmic
> "rechemicalization... Middle Path
> of ECK" comments from the Shariyat.
> When one looks at Klemp's selling
> of Eckankar it seems imbalanced.
> It's no wonder HK and Company
> can't see the forest due to the trees!
>
> Prometheus
>

Okay, here's an article a friend sent me that made my jaw drop.

It's at  http://moosebusiness.com/

This is a crosspost from ESA---

The following "Announcement" is displayed
in Eckankar's December 2009 H.I. Letter:

"Spotlight on High Initiates

You are invited to share your experience
as an ECK H.I. with your fellow Brothers
of the Leaf. Please send any of the following:

* Your personal experiences and insights
relating to the Mahanta, the ECK teachings,
and serving as an ECK H.I. [the Negative
too?]

* Photos of H.I.'s in ECK activities, especially
in action, sharing and enjoying ECK.
["in action" means no poses with fake
smiles?]

* Poems that express your love for the
SUGMAD and the Mahanta, and being
a Co-worker in ECK. [When will HK
"share" his poems?]

Send submissions to: Eckankar, Att: The
H.I. Letter, PO Box 2000, Chanhassen, MN
55317-2000 USA. Or e-mail them to
hil@.... (Submissions may be
edited for clarity and length.) Thanks for
sharing!"

******
That last disclaimer of "submissions may
be edited for clarity" is interesting since
H.I.s should already have mastered the
4th Mental Plane and, thus, have "clarity"
of mind. LOL!
******

Next, is an example of the kind
of delusional, ECKie B.S., story
that Klemp is looking for:

"Of Science and The Shariyat

I read an article in Scientific American
(May 2008) reporting that an individual's
genetic code may continuously change
after birth due to various environmental
influences. This got me thinking. This
discovery may open the door of science
to finding real biological transformations
and HEALING EFFECTS of LONG-TERM
PRACTICING OF SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINES.
To me, this all seems to correspond
to the 'rechemicalization' process mentioned
in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book 1, p. 143.
So let's hear it for the Spiritual Excercises
of ECK. Hip-hip, hooray!" - Phil Dunn, FL.

[My CAPS were added to the above
"insights."]

******

Yes! Look at how the "Healing Effects
of Long-Term Practicing of Spiritual
Disciplines/Exercises" have helped
Klemp! When does the "Benjamin
Button" effect kick-in? LOL!

Below is the old (1970) PT Shariyat
quote that inspired this H.I.'s delayed
and delusional revelation concerning
Science [that one's genetic code may
be continuously changing] and the
ability to use this for healing via the
Spiritual Exercises. It has long been
known that too much stress can have
negative effects and that meditation
can alleviate stress. However, this H.I.
concludes that these changes in one's
genetic code could be affected, for healing
purposes, by using the "spiritual exercises."

He supports his conclusions by making
a correlation with this article of scientific
discovery and with Twitchell's karmic
"rechemicalization" theory. However, this
H.I. misinterprets Paul's PR warning/threat
that unless one follows the Living ECK Master
(LEM) they will build up an unbalanced
amount of "bad" karma.

Paul, basically, states that one Should
Not be Obsessed with seeking Good
Health effects because this is Karmic
Attachment to the Physical Body. ECK
is the "Middle Path" (neither for or against)
and, thus, Detachment (from Lower
Plane effects) should be practiced in
order to reach "the gates of heaven."
Thus, one's Attention Should Not be
on the good or bad (health and/or healing),
nor on the positive and negative effects
of the physical body or physical world.

"Burning off of karma is the state of
rechemicalization. It is something man
must go through while living on this earth.
Man should be able to do this under the
Living ECK Master. If he is under any other
guide here on earth, this is NOT likely to
happen. He will be receiving more bad
karma than good and will be overbalanced
on the negative side. He needs to be
balanced only in the middle way, not
on either side. Only when he can walk
the middle path of ECK can he leave
the Wheel of the Eighty-Four and find
the gates of heaven."

What's really interesting is that in
Klemp's front page article he uses
a lot of "BUTS" when giving advice
on healthy eating. Nowhere did
Klemp mention doing the "Spiritual
Exercises of ECK" for healing or for
health!

Plus, isn't it interesting that Klemp
didn't notice this H.I.'s misinterpretation
(or his own) of Twitchell's karmic
"rechemicalization... Middle Path
of ECK" comments from the Shariyat.
When one looks at Klemp's selling
of Eckankar it seems imbalanced.
It's no wonder HK and Company
can't see the forest due to the trees!

Prometheus

Eckankah-kah. Did Darwin write: "Origin Of The Feces"?

Hello Ingrid and All,
You have a point there. Why
would the 9/11 terrorists, or
their cohorts, want to bother
with Eckankar? At the time I
even thought the same thing!
After all, we (Eckists) weren't
even Christians! However, it
was a good excuse to use for
more detailed searches to
look for recording devices.
But, I'm thinking it had more
to do with Klemp's paranoia...
it was what L. Ron Hubbard
would do without a 9/11!

On another level, complying
with the metal detectors and
searches can be seen as KAL
tests. It's the herd mentality too.
If EKists comply and don't see
the "spiritual" implications they
FAIL the higher test! Detachment/
Non-attachment to fear and
other Maya is supposed to be
the ECK Way! Thus, all current
Eckists have failed the higher
spiritual tests while passing
KAL's tests of fear and illusion!

Isn't it obvious how easily
people today (Eckists included)
comply (obey) and surrender
their wills (freedom) to authority.
However, going into a convention
hall at a religious (EK) seminar for
a talk shouldn't have the same
security measures and connotations
as entering a government building!
Checking seminar badges should
be enough security.

It's all about control. The
additional security measures
that Klemp implemented, also,
measured his ability to control
his chelas and H.I.s.

Irregardless, the ECK Dogma
contradicts these extreme
security measures. The implications
of these contradictions (fear
versus ECK) are right in front
of every ECKist and yet they
refuse to see! Instead, EK
chelas follow the Judas goats
(RESAs) and the rest of the
herd (hierarchy).

Isn't "Detachment" key?
Isn't it true that there is No
Death for Soul? Should "fear"
rule the ECKists' Worlds or
should "love" rule? Klemp
talks the talk but doesn't
walk the walk! He's a hypocrite
and a KAL agent! Thus, his
rapid aging and EMF disease
etc... it's his karma for lying.

ECKists should challenge
these untruths and abominations
that Klemp has established
to, seemingly, "comply" with
EK Dogma. Metal Detectors
and Searches "contradict"
EK Dogma! Klemp is the
anti-Mahanta and a Black
Magician... it's so obvious!

I recall that at the Oct. 2001
EWWS the metal detectors and
searches bothered me, and
there was no one that had a
valid answer as to why it was
being done. I guess they thought
that it was obvious as to why
and that no explanation was
necessary. That might be okay
for others (non-Eckists) but
we (Eckists) were/are Soul and
we had eternal life... there is No
Death!

And, (as ECKists) we had the
"protection" of the LEM/Mahanta
who was (supposedly) "always"
with us.

Why then metal detectors and
searches, in Oct 2001, and years
afterwards? I'm sure that this
made most people feel more
safe and secure, but it didn't
make me feel that way. It made
me doubt what I was being told
in the EK teachings. I started to
see thru the facade and make the
connection that something was
wrong... very wrong, and it didn't
feel good!

For years since 9/11 people arriving
on busses at the EK Temple have
had their bags searched and/or
checked. I saw past the fear mentality
and saw my religion, Eckankar,
and my LEM/Mahanta falling short
of the mark. It was disappointing
to say the least and it bothered
me even more so when this policy
of perpetuating fear was continued
year after year. Once was bad
enough, but Klemp's paranoia
and then Ford's revelations all
added up to be too much truth
to avoid seeing.

Actually, Ford's book was the
final straw. I was hanging on
tight but could no longer avoid
the cold hard truth! Klemp was
a fraud and Eckankar was just
another religious con designed
by a narcissist and liar (PT).

Actually, it seems that all three
LEMs were/are narcissists and liars,
as well as, unstable and delusional.
ECKists use the term: "As above, so
below," but does "fear" rule or even
exist in the higher planes "above?"
Why then metal detectors and searches?

Prometheus
p.s. And yes, HK's hand shaking, and
rapid aging is another contradiction
to the EK teachings. It's another in-
your-face  obvious truth that needs
to be placed outside of one's scrutiny
and avoided at all costs. Eckists simply
can't and won't admit that they've
been lied to. It's too easy and comfortable
to believe what you're told, and too
difficult to change. Besides, what do
Eckists have to replace Eckankar with?
Self-Mastery has less effort, but has
too much responsibility!



ctecvie wrote:

Hello Prometheus and all,

.... and, frankly, who would be interested
in attacking a so-called "godman" from
an unknown religion?? YAWN! :-D

And yes, little Harry is aging, and shaking,
and looking much older than any other 67
(or so)-year-old! I guess ekkies just don't
remove their pink glasses!

Not to see means it isn't there! LOL!

Ingrid

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Jonathan and All,
> Yes, the attempt to do a "drumming
> circle" was an innocent act, and it was
> meant to be fun! And, I've been at ones
> where there was NO chanting just drumming!
> I find them interesting in that the drumming
> (sound) starts out as individualized/group
> chaos and then harmonizes into a Unity of
> Consciousness. It's a metaphor... for the
> spiritual life.
>
> Getting back to the use of fear and
> control tactics of religions and of Eckankar:
>
> Did Eckankar use metal detectors at the
> 2009 EWWS? I always thought that was an
> over-the-top/knee-jerk reaction (a security/
> fear tactic) for Klemp to use after 9/11.
>
> Why should "God" (the Mahanta) be fearful
> of anything or anyone? Couldn't/wouldn't/
> shouldn't Rebazar and the other EK Masters
> manifest themselves to protect Klemp?
> Shouldn't HK be able to protect himself
> and his chelas on the outer, as well as
> (supposedly), on the inner? HK states
> that his "protection" is with his followers.
> But, where's the proof when H.I.s are dying
> of cancer etc. Actually, this is proof that
> Klemp is a liar. Guilt puts blame on the
> chela/H.I. for the cancer (besides, it's a
> "test" of faith) while Klemp dodges his
> promises and responsibilities.
>
> However, doubt began to creep into Eckists'
> consciousness when the "metal detectors"
> and "searches" began. This created more
> questioning of Klemp's abilities, and his
> truthfulness (as the LEM/Mahanta) began
> to be doubted even more so.
>
> When "God" (the Mahanta) is fearful and
> needs metal detectors, searches, and a
> security entourage one has to wonder
> about the validity of this religion.
>
> Then, of course, we have the aging factor.
> Other EK Masters live forever and appear
> rather youthful while Klemp is pale, old
> looking and wrinkled, grey-haired, and
> balding... like anyone else! I'm surprised
> that Eckists can't believe their own eyes!
> What delusion! How does one rationalize
> all of these facts and contradictions? Are
> people that desperate and needy? Yes!
>
> Eckankar is just another feel good religion
> with all of the rules and regulations and
> busy work, guilt/fear, and ego traps that
> all religions share. Every religion is unique
> and that's why they attract a certain like-
> minded group of individuals. Yet, all of
> these believers think they are right and
> everyone else is wrong and doomed! Unless,
> of course, the sinner is converted. Therefore,
> their "truth" must be shared with the world
> in order to "save" the non-believer from
> the negative effects of Kal, Satan, God, etc.
>
> And, in EK, there are "inflow" game points
> (initiations and positions) to be achieved
> while doing "God's" missionary (vahana)
> work to help raise the world's consciousness
> via this"outflow." The imagination is fun
> and useful and necessary, but it can, also,
> be a trap and a means of creating delusion.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
jonathan wrote:
>
Prometheus,
>
I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend
Eckankar when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying
to get into their head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had
for canceling it. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that
same process through the 29 years that I was a member
>
I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show
how religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines,
guilt, and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone
on their "track."
>
>
As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward
to the session saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was
going to be brought to the surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad
you mentioned that because I wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of
course you were thinking in those terms!

You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical
Eckankar is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar
must be kept pure."

Hello Prometheus and all,

.... and, frankly, who would be interested in attacking a so-called "godman"
from an unknown religion?? YAWN! :-D
And yes, little Harry is aging, and shaking, and looking much older than any
other 67(or so)-year-old! I guess ekkies just don't remove their pink glasses!
Not to see means it isn't there! LOL!

Ingrid
--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello Jonathan and All,
> Yes, the attempt to do a "drumming
> circle" was an innocent act, and it was
> meant to be fun! And, I've been at ones
> where there was NO chanting just drumming!
> I find them interesting in that the drumming
> (sound) starts out as individualized/group
> chaos and then harmonizes into a Unity of
> Consciousness. It's a metaphor... for the
> spiritual life.
>
> Getting back to the use of fear and
> control tactics of religions and of Eckankar:
>
> Did Eckankar use metal detectors at the
> 2009 EWWS? I always thought that was an
> over-the-top/knee-jerk reaction (a security/
> fear tactic) for Klemp to use after 9/11.
>
> Why should "God" (the Mahanta) be fearful
> of anything or anyone? Couldn't/wouldn't/
> shouldn't Rebazar and the other EK Masters
> manifest themselves to protect Klemp?
> Shouldn't HK be able to protect himself
> and his chelas on the outer, as well as
> (supposedly), on the inner? HK states
> that his "protection" is with his followers.
> But, where's the proof when H.I.s are dying
> of cancer etc. Actually, this is proof that
> Klemp is a liar. Guilt puts blame on the
> chela/H.I. for the cancer (besides, it's a
> "test" of faith) while Klemp dodges his
> promises and responsibilities.
>
> However, doubt began to creep into Eckists'
> consciousness when the "metal detectors"
> and "searches" began. This created more
> questioning of Klemp's abilities, and his
> truthfulness (as the LEM/Mahanta) began
> to be doubted even more so.
>
> When "God" (the Mahanta) is fearful and
> needs metal detectors, searches, and a
> security entourage one has to wonder
> about the validity of this religion.
>
> Then, of course, we have the aging factor.
> Other EK Masters live forever and appear
> rather youthful while Klemp is pale, old
> looking and wrinkled, grey-haired, and
> balding... like anyone else! I'm surprised
> that Eckists can't believe their own eyes!
> What delusion! How does one rationalize
> all of these facts and contradictions? Are
> people that desperate and needy? Yes!
>
> Eckankar is just another feel good religion
> with all of the rules and regulations and
> busy work, guilt/fear, and ego traps that
> all religions share. Every religion is unique
> and that's why they attract a certain like-
> minded group of individuals. Yet, all of
> these believers think they are right and
> everyone else is wrong and doomed! Unless,
> of course, the sinner is converted. Therefore,
> their "truth" must be shared with the world
> in order to "save" the non-believer from
> the negative effects of Kal, Satan, God, etc.
>
> And, in EK, there are "inflow" game points
> (initiations and positions) to be achieved
> while doing "God's" missionary (vahana)
> work to help raise the world's consciousness
> via this"outflow." The imagination is fun
> and useful and necessary, but it can, also,
> be a trap and a means of creating delusion.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> jonathan wrote:
>
> Prometheus,
>
> I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend Eckankar
> when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying to get into their
> head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had for canceling it.
> Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that same process through the
29
> years that I was a member
>
> I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show how
> religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt,
> and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone on their
> "track."
>
>
> As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward to the
session
> saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was going to be brought to
the
> surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad you mentioned that because I
> wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of course you were thinking in those
terms!
> You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical
Eckankar
> is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar must be kept
> pure."
>

Hello Jonathan and All,
Yes, the attempt to do a "drumming
circle" was an innocent act, and it was
meant to be fun! And, I've been at ones
where there was NO chanting just drumming!
I find them interesting in that the drumming
(sound) starts out as individualized/group
chaos and then harmonizes into a Unity of
Consciousness. It's a metaphor... for the
spiritual life.

Getting back to the use of fear and
control tactics of religions and of Eckankar:

Did Eckankar use metal detectors at the
2009 EWWS? I always thought that was an
over-the-top/knee-jerk reaction (a security/
fear tactic) for Klemp to use after 9/11.

Why should "God" (the Mahanta) be fearful
of anything or anyone? Couldn't/wouldn't/
shouldn't Rebazar and the other EK Masters
manifest themselves to protect Klemp?
Shouldn't HK be able to protect himself
and his chelas on the outer, as well as
(supposedly), on the inner? HK states
that his "protection" is with his followers.
But, where's the proof when H.I.s are dying
of cancer etc. Actually, this is proof that
Klemp is a liar. Guilt puts blame on the
chela/H.I. for the cancer (besides, it's a
"test" of faith) while Klemp dodges his
promises and responsibilities.

However, doubt began to creep into Eckists'
consciousness when the "metal detectors"
and "searches" began. This created more
questioning of Klemp's abilities, and his
truthfulness (as the LEM/Mahanta) began
to be doubted even more so.

When "God" (the Mahanta) is fearful and
needs metal detectors, searches, and a
security entourage one has to wonder
about the validity of this religion.

Then, of course, we have the aging factor.
Other EK Masters live forever and appear
rather youthful while Klemp is pale, old
looking and wrinkled, grey-haired, and
balding... like anyone else! I'm surprised
that Eckists can't believe their own eyes!
What delusion! How does one rationalize
all of these facts and contradictions? Are
people that desperate and needy? Yes!

Eckankar is just another feel good religion
with all of the rules and regulations and
busy work, guilt/fear, and ego traps that
all religions share. Every religion is unique
and that's why they attract a certain like-
minded group of individuals. Yet, all of
these believers think they are right and
everyone else is wrong and doomed! Unless,
of course, the sinner is converted. Therefore,
their "truth" must be shared with the world
in order to "save" the non-believer from
the negative effects of Kal, Satan, God, etc.

And, in EK, there are "inflow" game points
(initiations and positions) to be achieved
while doing "God's" missionary (vahana)
work to help raise the world's consciousness
via this"outflow." The imagination is fun
and useful and necessary, but it can, also,
be a trap and a means of creating delusion.

Prometheus



jonathan wrote:

Prometheus,

I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend Eckankar
when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying to get into their
head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had for canceling it.
Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that same process through the 29
years that I was a member

I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show how
religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt,
and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone on their
"track."


As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward to the session
saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was going to be brought to the
surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad you mentioned that because I
wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of course you were thinking in those terms!
You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical Eckankar
is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar must be kept
pure."

Prometheus,

I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend Eckankar
when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying to get into their
head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had for canceling it.
Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that same process through the 29
years that I was a member

I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show how
religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt,
and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone on their
"track."


As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward to the session
saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was going to be brought to the
surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad you mentioned that because I
wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of course you were thinking in those terms!
You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical Eckankar
is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar must be kept
pure."

But when evaluating the whole situation, I also saw that it might be a general
reflection of American sociey's overal lack of understanding and respect for
Native American culture.

Hello Ingrid and All,
Once, I was still wearing some
cargo shorts after dark early
one evening and my friends
tried to get us into a German
club that was having dinner
and dancing and I was not
permitted in because the
management said "Lederhosen"
was not permitted. I thought
it was strange, but as I said
there are many old traditional/
conservative beliefs concerning
"proper" dress. No one wants
to go against the flow or to
change the way things are done.
Instead, people want others
to conform to their old beliefs.

This same conformity of thought
and tradition goes well with religious
beliefs, and, thus, the purpose
of the ECK Worship Service (EWS),
and the other EK traditions i.e.
"Spiritual Years" (themes) that
Klemp has established during
his rule.

As for blue jeans... I wonder
what the Klempster would think
of my Ed Hardy jeans?

Never mind. I already know!

Prometheus

ctecvie wrote:

Hi Prometheus and all,

thanks for all the informative posts about dress codes and such! Well, a blue
jeans can look very elegant to, if worn with a nice jacket I think - and of
course if there are no holes in it! :-)

Just to correct one little thing about the Lederhosen: Lederhosen means leather
trousers (pants) and is a national folklore clothing in the Southern parts of
Germany (not at all in the north! LOL!) and all over Austria. However, it's not
at all the same than shorts - there are short and long Lederhosen. You can wear
shorts in the hot season of course, but as you said correctly Prometheus, one
would not wear shorts during an event, especially if one has to give or conduct
talks!

Ingrid

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Jonathan and All,
> The more I think about it I do remember
> a remark about a dress code and no Levis.
> Today, the blue jeans thing mostly affects
> male volunteers at major seminars (when
> seminar leaders assign duties), or locally
> when doing an intro, or the EWS as the
> conducting cleric. Jeans are still okay for
> many EK events, unless, you're conducting
> the event.
>
> Also, I used to dress in suit and tie when
> I worked at the major EK seminars. One
> needed a jacket to "hide" all of the
> electronic surveillance/communications
> equipment (walkie-talkies, etc.) and battery
> packs. BTW, Germans and Europeans, in
> general, still have more dress codes than
> Americans. Black and white are traditional
> colors in Germany and Lederhosen (shorts)
> are not worn much (except during festivals)
> even during hot weather. Dress is very
> conservative and people tend to follow
> the crowd, and conform. For some reason
> they don't want to stand out as being
> individualistic. Then, again, it does seem
> that they are more regulated and responsible
> than we are and that might be a good
> thing for some things.
>
> In regard to Darwin's music I didn't get
> into jazz either. However, I think that
> Darwin's opinion/prediction about the
> Big Band music catching on was true.
> Look at the youth (since 1981) who have/
> had gotten involved with Swing dancing.
> Jim Carey was in the movie Mask and it
> had Big Band music and there was the
> movie Swingers. Many other things
> indicated a revival of this music. I
> walked into a bar/restaurant about
> ten or so years ago where young college
> age people were doing Swing dancing
> to Big Band music and it was really
> fun to watch. I can't remember if Big
> Band music was ever played at the
> "social" dance at one of HK's major
> EK seminars... maybe it has been!
>
> BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
> American "drumming" session at
> a major ECK seminar? A group of
> us (once) got an empty room and
> were supposed to have had one
> because I was going to bring over
> one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
> to remember that it got cancelled
> because a higher-up at the ESC
> got wind of it and thought it was
> inappropriate.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> jonathanjohns wrote:
>
> Prometheus,
>
> Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.
>
> I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979,
> and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about
> him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music
> onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort
into
> dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to
how
> people dress.
>
> That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The
> hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one
of
> many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening
to
> a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to
> people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation
> use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial
> tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example
he
> gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but
> people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said
> "Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason.
So
> I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin
is
> doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked
name
> (Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I
> doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.
>
> I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest
> in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin
never
> managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol
>
> It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our
> lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band
music
> and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I
> even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a
big
> comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal
> fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at
the
> time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even
> believing him outright.
>
> One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday
> morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must
be
> going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By
> the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just
> down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church )
I
> was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the
attire
> for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress
> suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still
be
> surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.
>
> For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the
> seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual.
It
> does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in
Eckankar
> 1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one,
> things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few
> people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family
> that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the
center
> dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an
> example for everyone to "dress up."
>
> I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years
> toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on
dressing
> up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said
that
> he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that
people
> in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't
remember
> that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > No, I don't remember that letter about
> > Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
> > wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
> > and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
> > wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
> > or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
> > casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
> > and khaki slacks when walking to and from
> > seminar meetings, and this is how he
> > often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
> > Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
> > with him for outside or for a more formal
> > look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
> > for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
> > he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
> > and the gang.
> >
> > Maybe you could go on Facebook
> > and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
> > then ask him some things about Darwin.
> > Who knows... he might be willing to share
> > some history. Then again, he might be
> > afraid to share things if it got back to
> > HK that he was talking about Darwin.
> >
> > It is funny to see those Passing of the
> > Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
> > light blue dress shirts with collars open!
> >
> > Yes, I remember that I was told that there
> > were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
> > were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
> > By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
> > except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
> > expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
> > added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
> > to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
> > Eventually HK had to write two leadership
> > books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
> > the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
> >
> > Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
> > rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
> > most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
> > only natural that there should be open
> > discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
> > Only a religious leader can proclaim that
> > Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
> > in the next. But, not all religions have a
> > God-like leader with the ultimate power
> > and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
> > and demote members without a trial or
> > an open discussion or giving just cause
> > via a two-way answering of questions.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> > jonathanjohns wrote:
> >
> > Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
> > message board and on the "other" board.
> > Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
> > or nostalgia. It's really
> > not a serious topic.
> >
> > I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
> > Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
> > out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
> > I got one of those blue letters in the
> > blue envelope directly from Darwin/
> > Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
> > chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
> > Klemp became the LEM. But what was
> > written in this letter rather surprised
> > me. Darwin stated that chelas should
> > not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
> > The implication or direct statement
> > was that this was too casual. There
> > may have been a statement about how
> > Eckankar needed to project a better
> > image.
> >
> > I believe he made additional statements
> > about other articles of clothing, but
> > I especially noticed the word "Levis"
> > because this is actually a trademarked
> > name of a company, not a type of clothing.
> > I am assuming that what he raelly meant
> > was "blue jeans," but he might have also
> > been including other styles of pants
> > which were just as casual.
> >
> > This letter bothered me, and not just
> > because I hate to dress up, and I also
> > hate it when people tell me I have to
> > dress up. The other reason that it
> > bothered me was that a month or two
> > before I received this letter from Darwin,
> > I had listened to an audio tape where
> > he emphatically stated "There are no
> > rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
> > I'm reading this letter and thinking to
> > myself "Wait a minute! What did you
> > just say in your tape!?"
> >
> > I realize that this isn't the most important
> > topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
> > expand on it a bit. The really humerous
> > thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
> > up when he gave talks although I didn't
> > even think about that when I read that letter
> > (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
> > could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
> > Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
> > a dress shirt, but the top button was
> > unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
> > a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
> > To Know" where he is apparently signing
> > autographs for chelas and he is dressed
> > like this. I would assume that this took
> > place at a major seminar.
> >
> > But as I was driving my car this morning,
> > something occurred to me. Klemp always
> > wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
> >
> > I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
> >
> > Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
> > the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
> > tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
> > Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
> > "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
> > it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
> > make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
> > you hang out around the members of
> > Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
> > obsessed with how the public percieves
> > Eckankar.
> >
> > AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
> > Paul to share. There was a talk that
> > Paul gave to an American audience where
> > he was telling them about his expereince
> > in giving talks in Europe. He said that
> > he would start out the talk all dressed
> > up, but as the talk went on he would take
> > his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
> > floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
> > loosened his tie up, which meant that
> > he actually was wearing one. Put it was
> > funny when Paul commented on the
> > reaction of the Europen audiences:
> >
> > "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
> > down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
> > and also as a story pointing out the difference
> > between Americans being more casual
> > than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
> > wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
> > progressed, his desire for personal comfort
> > apparently won out over his desire to present
> > the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
> > anyway so I think that he really didn't care
> > very much waht people thought.
> >
> > But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
> > that he sent out a lot of letters directly
> > to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
> > he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
> > that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
> > point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
> >
> > Two questions:
> > 1. Does anybody but me remember that
> > letter that Darwin sent out?
> >
> > 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
> > giving talks?

Hello Jonathan and All,
The drumming circle or session
was an "unofficial" activity that
some of us were planning after
the evening seminar program.
Sometimes I would be with EK
musicians when they would
get together for jams as well.
Since there were no Shamans
conducting the drumming
circle we thought it would be
okay. After all, it wasn't to be
like a "worship service" nor
was it involving the Astral, or
Animism. And, any communication
with the "Great Spirit" would have
been seen as the ECK (Spirit).
'A rose is still a rose by any
other name.' It wasn't negative
it was positive, although, one
could argue that the "positive"
is still lower plane and tied into
karma or "tests" and are, therefore,
still a form of KAL. That's the
ECK think of it all... right!

Anyway, it just goes to show how
religions like to control their followers
via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt,
and fear. Eckankar has the RESA
Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone
on their "track."

Here's a quote from the Shariyat 2,
Chapter 12, involving the Fourth
Circle:

"The evolution of the intelligence
that is the Fourth Circle, the Mental
Plane, is the gradual rising out of
the psychic reality. This illusionary
world is typified in the Indian philosophy
by the word maya which means
illusion. In the Buddhist philosophy
it is known as mara, and in Christianity
as SATAN, or the DEVIL. It is known
in the works of ECK as KAL NIRANJAN,
king of the lower worlds."

And, in Klemps "Autobiography of a
Modern Prophet," on page 385, he states:

"In general, major religions locate
their heaven on the Mental Plane,
the so-called Fourth World. These
include Christianity, the Jewish religion,
Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism."

It's interesting that Twitchell designed
Eckankar around Fourth (Mental) Plane
religions/philosophies like Ruhani Satsang,
Theosophy, etc. and that Klemp has
given Eckankar his own Mental Plane
Christian (Lutheran) twist when both
PT and HK have stated that these Mental
Plane religions are controlled by KAL,
i.e. Satan or the Devil.

Prometheus



jonathanjohns wrote:

This question in the title of this thread was actually
put forward by Prometheus in another thread, but
I thought that I would start a new thread:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/7505

Prometheus said:

"BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
American "drumming" session at
a major ECK seminar? A group of
us (once) got an empty room and
were supposed to have had one
because I was going to bring over
one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
to remember that it got cancelled
because a higher-up at the ESC
got wind of it and thought it was
inappropriate."

Me: No, I never saw Native American "drumming" session at a major seminar.

Regarding your statement about why your drumming session was canceled. I tend to
agree with your explanation that a higher-up heard about it, and probably
because somebody complained to them. You didn't ask, but since I find this to be
an interesting subject I spent a lot of time thinking about why "Eckankar" would
consider a drumming session to be inappropriate. I thought up two possible
reasons.

1. I feel that drumming by a group of people induces a trance-like state which
is something similar to the trance-like state induced when people sing HU in a
group. I think that both are a type of spiritual experience. So "Eckankar" could
perceive a drumming circle as something which could compete for the attention
of Eckists (against the HU). What if a group of Eckists decided that they liked
drumming together better than singing the HU together? Eckankar couldn't allow
that to happen.

2. A lot of people consider Native American religions to be synonymous with
witchcraft or black magic. It was almost a year ago that I mentioned the
African-American lady (not an Eckist) who told me that Native American religions
which believe that trees and animals have spirits were, in fact, black magic. So
if the higher-up who canceled the drumming session had conscious or unconscious
thinking along these lines, then they would obviously think that " Native
American group drumming," was inappropriate at an Eck seminar.

3. Or perhaps it is as simple as "Native American drumming is part of Native
American religions; therefore, we (Eckankar) shouldn't be incorporating it into
Eckankar." Of course, never mind the fact that the HU was taken from the Sufis,
and the actual teachings of Eckankar came straight from Hinduism/Sikhism.

By the way, I know that there are Eckists who do drumming on their own. Or they
use feathers or crystals for healing on their own. But as of 2008, my last year
in Eckanakar, they were very fanatical about keeping anything like this out of
Eckankar. Eckankar says they do this in order to keep the teachings of Eckankar
pure, and they certainly have a right to do that. But getting back to the
drumming, maybe Eckankar considers group drumming to be akin to somebody
bringing a healing crystal into a worship service and telling everybody about
it. Any higher-up hearing about that crystal would go ballistic. Most religions
change over time, they incorporate new things as they go along, but Eckankar
seems to be very static. Except, of course, for changing itself to appear like
Christianity. Or, adding a female or black Eck master for political correctness.
Basically, they are watering down Eckankar so that it appears less "weird" to
potential converts.

So, summarizing, as far as Eckankar is concerned, is
"group drumming" just a harmless activity, or is it

(1) something that could cut into Eckankar's turf

(2) something representing the "Kal powers/witchcraft/
black magic" and therefore not in tune with Eckankar

(3) part of somebody else's religion already

I really don't know, but I hope I thought up some
interesting theories for people to consider.

So I guess the bottom line is that Eckankar has the right to disallow drumming
sessions, but when I was a member I often wished they would give us an
explanation as to why they made certain decisions. Too often, they either give a
vague answer or no answer. And then we Eckists would sit around discuss all the
possible reasons. In the end all we ended up with was a bunch of theories. But I
am still interested in others thoughts on this topic.

Hi Prometheus and all,

thanks for all the informative posts about dress codes and such! Well, a blue
jeans can look very elegant to, if worn with a nice jacket I think - and of
course if there are no holes in it! :-)

Just to correct one little thing about the Lederhosen: Lederhosen means leather
trousers (pants)and is a national folklore clothing in the Southern parts of
Germany (not at all in the north! LOL!) and all over Austria. However, it's not
at all the same than shorts - there are short and long Lederhosen. You can wear
shorts in the hot season of course, but as you said correctly Prometheus, one
would not wear shorts during an event, especially if one has to give or conduct
talks!

Ingrid

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello Jonathan and All,
> The more I think about it I do remember
> a remark about a dress code and no Levis.
> Today, the blue jeans thing mostly affects
> male volunteers at major seminars (when
> seminar leaders assign duties), or locally
> when doing an intro, or the EWS as the
> conducting cleric. Jeans are still okay for
> many EK events, unless, you're conducting
> the event.
>
> Also, I used to dress in suit and tie when
> I worked at the major EK seminars. One
> needed a jacket to "hide" all of the
> electronic surveillance/communications
> equipment (walkie-talkies, etc.) and battery
> packs. BTW, Germans and Europeans, in
> general, still have more dress codes than
> Americans. Black and white are traditional
> colors in Germany and Lederhosen (shorts)
> are not worn much (except during festivals)
> even during hot weather. Dress is very
> conservative and people tend to follow
> the crowd, and conform. For some reason
> they don't want to stand out as being
> individualistic. Then, again, it does seem
> that they are more regulated and responsible
> than we are and that might be a good
> thing for some things.
>
> In regard to Darwin's music I didn't get
> into jazz either. However, I think that
> Darwin's opinion/prediction about the
> Big Band music catching on was true.
> Look at the youth (since 1981) who have/
> had gotten involved with Swing dancing.
> Jim Carey was in the movie Mask and it
> had Big Band music and there was the
> movie Swingers. Many other things
> indicated a revival of this music. I
> walked into a bar/restaurant about
> ten or so years ago where young college
> age people were doing Swing dancing
> to Big Band music and it was really
> fun to watch. I can't remember if Big
> Band music was ever played at the
> "social" dance at one of HK's major
> EK seminars... maybe it has been!
>
> BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
> American "drumming" session at
> a major ECK seminar? A group of
> us (once) got an empty room and
> were supposed to have had one
> because I was going to bring over
> one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
> to remember that it got cancelled
> because a higher-up at the ESC
> got wind of it and thought it was
> inappropriate.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> jonathanjohns wrote:
>
> Prometheus,
>
> Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.
>
> I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979,
> and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about
> him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music
> onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort
into
> dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to
how
> people dress.
>
> That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The
> hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one
of
> many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening
to
> a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to
> people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation
> use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial
> tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example
he
> gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but
> people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said
> "Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason.
So
> I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin
is
> doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked
name
> (Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I
> doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.
>
> I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest
> in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin
never
> managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol
>
> It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our
> lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band
music
> and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I
> even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a
big
> comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal
> fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at
the
> time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even
> believing him outright.
>
> One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday
> morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must
be
> going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By
> the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just
> down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church )
I
> was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the
attire
> for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress
> suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still
be
> surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.
>
> For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the
> seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual.
It
> does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in
Eckankar
> 1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one,
> things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few
> people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family
> that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the
center
> dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an
> example for everyone to "dress up."
>
> I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years
> toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on
dressing
> up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said
that
> he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that
people
> in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't
remember
> that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > No, I don't remember that letter about
> > Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
> > wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
> > and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
> > wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
> > or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
> > casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
> > and khaki slacks when walking to and from
> > seminar meetings, and this is how he
> > often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
> > Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
> > with him for outside or for a more formal
> > look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
> > for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
> > he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
> > and the gang.
> >
> > Maybe you could go on Facebook
> > and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
> > then ask him some things about Darwin.
> > Who knows... he might be willing to share
> > some history. Then again, he might be
> > afraid to share things if it got back to
> > HK that he was talking about Darwin.
> >
> > It is funny to see those Passing of the
> > Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
> > light blue dress shirts with collars open!
> >
> > Yes, I remember that I was told that there
> > were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
> > were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
> > By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
> > except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
> > expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
> > added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
> > to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
> > Eventually HK had to write two leadership
> > books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
> > the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
> >
> > Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
> > rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
> > most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
> > only natural that there should be open
> > discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
> > Only a religious leader can proclaim that
> > Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
> > in the next. But, not all religions have a
> > God-like leader with the ultimate power
> > and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
> > and demote members without a trial or
> > an open discussion or giving just cause
> > via a two-way answering of questions.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> > jonathanjohns wrote:
> >
> > Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
> > message board and on the "other" board.
> > Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
> > or nostalgia. It's really
> > not a serious topic.
> >
> > I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
> > Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
> > out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
> > I got one of those blue letters in the
> > blue envelope directly from Darwin/
> > Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
> > chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
> > Klemp became the LEM. But what was
> > written in this letter rather surprised
> > me. Darwin stated that chelas should
> > not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
> > The implication or direct statement
> > was that this was too casual. There
> > may have been a statement about how
> > Eckankar needed to project a better
> > image.
> >
> > I believe he made additional statements
> > about other articles of clothing, but
> > I especially noticed the word "Levis"
> > because this is actually a trademarked
> > name of a company, not a type of clothing.
> > I am assuming that what he raelly meant
> > was "blue jeans," but he might have also
> > been including other styles of pants
> > which were just as casual.
> >
> > This letter bothered me, and not just
> > because I hate to dress up, and I also
> > hate it when people tell me I have to
> > dress up. The other reason that it
> > bothered me was that a month or two
> > before I received this letter from Darwin,
> > I had listened to an audio tape where
> > he emphatically stated "There are no
> > rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
> > I'm reading this letter and thinking to
> > myself "Wait a minute! What did you
> > just say in your tape!?"
> >
> > I realize that this isn't the most important
> > topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
> > expand on it a bit. The really humerous
> > thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
> > up when he gave talks although I didn't
> > even think about that when I read that letter
> > (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
> > could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
> > Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
> > a dress shirt, but the top button was
> > unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
> > a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
> > To Know" where he is apparently signing
> > autographs for chelas and he is dressed
> > like this. I would assume that this took
> > place at a major seminar.
> >
> > But as I was driving my car this morning,
> > something occurred to me. Klemp always
> > wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
> >
> > I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
> >
> > Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
> > the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
> > tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
> > Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
> > "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
> > it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
> > make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
> > you hang out around the members of
> > Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
> > obsessed with how the public percieves
> > Eckankar.
> >
> > AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
> > Paul to share. There was a talk that
> > Paul gave to an American audience where
> > he was telling them about his expereince
> > in giving talks in Europe. He said that
> > he would start out the talk all dressed
> > up, but as the talk went on he would take
> > his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
> > floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
> > loosened his tie up, which meant that
> > he actually was wearing one. Put it was
> > funny when Paul commented on the
> > reaction of the Europen audiences:
> >
> > "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
> > down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
> > and also as a story pointing out the difference
> > between Americans being more casual
> > than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
> > wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
> > progressed, his desire for personal comfort
> > apparently won out over his desire to present
> > the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
> > anyway so I think that he really didn't care
> > very much waht people thought.
> >
> > But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
> > that he sent out a lot of letters directly
> > to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
> > he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
> > that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
> > point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
> >
> > Two questions:
> > 1. Does anybody but me remember that
> > letter that Darwin sent out?
> >
> > 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
> > giving talks?
>

Have you ever wondered about the all-powerful eck masters? They appear and
reappear at will, can manifest in the physical, pull you out of a fire, help you
fly through the air and even appear in the physical and stand in the snow
wearing only sandals and a flimsy frock. Rebazar Tarsz can even be considered a
Tibetan master even though he looks nothing at all like any fricken Tibetan I've
ever seen. BUT WITH ALL THESE amazing powers, I find it most amazing that none
of these masters have ever shown up for a photography session. They've never
gone to Minnesota and posed for a photograph so that their humble followers can
frame them and put them on the walls instead of those dreadful, cartoonish and
amateur depictions!

Why don't they just manifest at a studio and have their pictures taken? Don't
tell me it's because they can't. Or that they just don't do such things. If they
were so against having their pictures used as idol-worshipping objects of art,
then they wouldn't even allow their cartoons to be posted and distributed, at a
fee, by the eckankar hierarchy, right? Fubbi Quantz should manifest himself an
Armani suit and smile for the Nikon.

I'm frankly very disappointed. This isn't the reason why I got out of eckankar,
but it should be just one in a long list of dealbreakers for the sane.

This question in the title of this thread was actually put forward by Prometheus
in another thread, but I thought that I would start a new thread:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/7505

Prometheus said:

"BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
American "drumming" session at
a major ECK seminar? A group of
us (once) got an empty room and
were supposed to have had one
because I was going to bring over
one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
to remember that it got cancelled
because a higher-up at the ESC
got wind of it and thought it was
inappropriate."

Me: No, I never saw Native American "drumming" session at a major seminar.

Regarding your statement about why your drumming session was canceled. I tend to
agree with your explanation that a higher-up heard about it, and probably
because somebody complained to them. You didn't ask, but since I find this to be
an interesting subject I spent a lot of time thinking about why "Eckankar" would
consider a drumming session to be inappropriate. I thought up two possible
reasons.

1. I feel that drumming by a group of people induces a trance-like state which
is something similar to the trance-like state induced when people sing HU in a
group. I think that both are a type of spiritual experience. So "Eckankar" could
perceive a drumming circle as something  which could compete for the attention
of Eckists (against the HU). What if a group of Eckists decided that they liked
drumming together better than singing the HU together? Eckankar couldn't allow
that to happen.

2. A lot of people consider Native American religions to be synonymous with
witchcraft or black magic. It was almost a year ago that I mentioned the
African-American lady (not an Eckist) who told me that Native American religions
which believe that trees and animals have spirits were, in fact, black magic. So
if the higher-up who canceled the drumming session had conscious or unconscious
thinking along these lines, then they would obviously think that " Native
American group drumming," was inappropriate at an Eck seminar.

3. Or perhaps it is as simple as "Native American drumming is part of Native
American religions; therefore, we (Eckankar) shouldn't be incorporating it into
Eckankar." Of course, never mind the fact that the HU was taken from the Sufis,
and the actual teachings of Eckankar came straight from Hinduism/Sikhism.

By the way, I know that there are Eckists who do drumming on their own. Or they
use feathers or crystals for healing on their own. But as of 2008, my last year
in Eckanakar, they were very fanatical about keeping anything like this out of
Eckankar. Eckankar says they do this in order to keep the teachings of Eckankar
pure, and they certainly have a right to do that. But getting back to the
drumming, maybe Eckankar considers group drumming to be akin to somebody
bringing a healing crystal into a worship service and telling everybody about
it. Any higher-up hearing about that crystal would go ballistic. Most religions
change over time, they incorporate new things as they go along, but Eckankar
seems to be very static. Except, of course, for changing itself to appear like
Christianity. Or, adding a female or black Eck master for political correctness.
Basically, they are watering down Eckankar so that it appears less "weird" to
potential converts.

So, summarizing, as far as Eckankar is concerned, is "group drumming" just a
harmless activity, or is it

(1) something that could cut into Eckankar's turf
(2) something representing the "Kal powers/witchcraft/black magic" and therefore
not in tune with Eckankar
(3) part of somebody else's religion already

I really don't know, but I hope I thought up some interesting theories for
people to consider.

So I guess the bottom line is that Eckankar has the right to disallow drumming
sessions, but when I was a member I often wished they would give us an
explanation as to why they made certain decisions. Too often, they either give a
vague answer or no answer. And then we Eckists would sit around discuss all the
possible reasons. In the end all we ended up with was a bunch of theories. But I
am still interested in others thoughts on this topic.

I actually agree with you about Big Band music. There has been some interest,
and my attitude is that any interest by young people is surprising. I guess when
I heard Darwin's comment I was thinking in terms of something much more
significant than what has actually happened.

I think this thread is getting kinda long so I am going to start a new one to
comment on your question about whether they ever had a Native American drumming
session at a major seminar.

Hello Sharon and All,
Eckists probably think it sounds
paranoid to burn ECK Books, but
HK started the paranoia with the
burning of Darwin's pictures and
books and promoting the fear that
he was a "Black Magician." It's funny
to hear about the Klemp Eckist,
Peter Skelsky, doing an EK book
burning of not just Darwin's books
but Twitchell's too! I heard that he
was once instructed (by Klemp) to
find/buy and destroy all copies of
PT's "Difficulties of Becoming the
Living ECK Master." Who's paranoid
now? Klemp!

I agree that the EK propaganda
should be tossed. If it had any
merit and/or truth etc. it would
be a different story, but it's all
just another mental plane KAL
trap/test to delay Soul from standing
on Its own or to be Self-reliant.
Without the crutch of religion or
the fake EK masters or the co-
dependency of a Mahanta Eckists
might eventually recognize their
own mastery.

Prometheus


Sharon wrote:

Hi Mike -

Yeah, it's not good thinking that passing on eckbooks might infect someone, like
the way I got hooked by a donated library book. I still feel sick to my stomach
thinking about a young man who was interested in some of the things I said in a
religion class back in the early 90's. I gave him LTG 1 & 2. I don't know what
happened, but I'm very happy because I know anyone else I gave books to, or took
to intro sessions, had the sense not to fall for it.

Unless you think you'd feel better if you burned them, I wouldn't hesitate to
sell them or even donate them to your local thrift store, or swap them if you've
got a local used book store that does that. What can you do is simply write
"cult" on the inside cover, along with a few website addresses. BTW, although
few people actually check out all those donated library books, if you run across
them either in the library or bookstores, carry a few little cards with a little
note saying it's a cult, Twitch plagiarized, URLs, whatever, and stick them in
the books. <gg>

I certainly would never give them to the local eck center.

I plan to sell my eckstuff eventually. You might want to check out auction
sites other than Ebay, where I've heard you pay less for listings. Oh, there
are also online swap sites, like paperbackswap.com (I think that's it).

No harm in making a few $, considering what our years in the cult cost us!

I've seen high prices for cult books on the internet, but I don't think anyone
actually buys them.

Best wishes!!

Hugs,

Sharon

PS - oh, it's sort of funny, but to this day I often see Darwin's "Your Right To
Know" at yard sales & used book stores!! And if you've got "Introduction to
Eckankar", Etznab is looking for it!






violinmike wrote:
>
> I'm quite the clutterbug and have been sorting out a lot of these cult
books.

> Some of these eck books are out of print like dialogues with the master,the
tuba er flute of god, Illuminated way letters and even a Darwin gross paperback
Your Right to know. Harolds large print bedtime books.

I have an original tired hard copy of Stranger by the river with a Las
vegas address sticker in it. Never did understand the talons of time
or the Way of Dharma. Holey crap the Way of dharma is listing for
15 bucks on Ebay!

http://cgi.ebay.ca/*THE-WAY-OF-DHARMA-Paul-Twitchell_W0QQitemZ390120336119QQcmdZ\
\
ViewItemQQimsxZ20091119?IMSfp=TL091119161

> Heres the conundrum. What to do with them? Its very hard for me to throw
books away. so what would you do with them other then that.Might be liberating
though to send them to the dump.

> Leave them in a basket on the eck centers doorway? Sell the rarities on E bay?
Be selling the junk to a junkie though

> Also what did YOU do with yours?

> Enough time has passed that I don't need to hold on to them.

> I don't want them to infect someone else with their memes. But someone who has
the eck virus hardcore isn't really going to be affected any more then they
already are.
>
> Hmmm
>
> Mike
>

Hello Jonathan and All,
The more I think about it I do remember
a remark about a dress code and no Levis.
Today, the blue jeans thing mostly affects
male volunteers at major seminars (when
seminar leaders assign duties), or locally
when doing an intro, or the EWS as the
conducting cleric. Jeans are still okay for
many EK events, unless, you're conducting
the event.

Also, I used to dress in suit and tie when
I worked at the major EK seminars. One
needed a jacket to "hide" all of the
electronic surveillance/communications
equipment (walkie-talkies, etc.) and battery
packs. BTW, Germans and Europeans, in
general, still have more dress codes than
Americans. Black and white are traditional
colors in Germany and Lederhosen (shorts)
are not worn much (except during festivals)
even during hot weather. Dress is very
conservative and people tend to follow
the crowd, and conform. For some reason
they don't want to stand out as being
individualistic. Then, again, it does seem
that they are more regulated and responsible
than we are and that might be a good
thing for some things.

In regard to Darwin's music I didn't get
into jazz either. However, I think that
Darwin's opinion/prediction about the
Big Band music catching on was true.
Look at the youth (since 1981) who have/
had gotten involved with Swing dancing.
Jim Carey was in the movie Mask and it
had Big Band music and there was the
movie Swingers. Many other things
indicated a revival of this music. I
walked into a bar/restaurant about
ten or so years ago where young college
age people were doing Swing dancing
to Big Band music and it was really
fun to watch. I can't remember if Big
Band music was ever played at the
"social" dance at one of HK's major
EK seminars... maybe it has been!

BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
American "drumming" session at
a major ECK seminar? A group of
us (once) got an empty room and
were supposed to have had one
because I was going to bring over
one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
to remember that it got cancelled
because a higher-up at the ESC
got wind of it and thought it was
inappropriate.


Prometheus


jonathanjohns wrote:

Prometheus,

Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.

I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979,
and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about
him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music
onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort into
dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to how
people dress.

That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The
hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one of
many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening to
a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to
people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation
use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial
tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example he
gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but
people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said
"Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason. So
I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin is
doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked name
(Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I
doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.

I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest
in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin never
managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol

It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our
lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band music
and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I
even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a big
comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal
fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at the
time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even
believing him outright.

One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday
morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must be
going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By
the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just
down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church ) I
was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the attire
for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress
suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still be
surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.

For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the
seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual. It
does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in Eckankar
1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one,
things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few
people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family
that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the center
dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an
example for everyone to "dress up."

I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years
toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on dressing
up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said that
he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that people
in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't remember
that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.


prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> No, I don't remember that letter about
> Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
> wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
> and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
> wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
> or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
> casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
> and khaki slacks when walking to and from
> seminar meetings, and this is how he
> often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
> Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
> with him for outside or for a more formal
> look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
> for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
> he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
> and the gang.
>
> Maybe you could go on Facebook
> and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
> then ask him some things about Darwin.
> Who knows... he might be willing to share
> some history. Then again, he might be
> afraid to share things if it got back to
> HK that he was talking about Darwin.
>
> It is funny to see those Passing of the
> Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
> light blue dress shirts with collars open!
>
> Yes, I remember that I was told that there
> were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
> were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
> By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
> except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
> expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
> added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
> to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
> Eventually HK had to write two leadership
> books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
> the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
>
> Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
> rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
> most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
> only natural that there should be open
> discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
> Only a religious leader can proclaim that
> Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
> in the next. But, not all religions have a
> God-like leader with the ultimate power
> and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
> and demote members without a trial or
> an open discussion or giving just cause
> via a two-way answering of questions.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> jonathanjohns wrote:
>
> Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
> message board and on the "other" board.
> Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
> or nostalgia. It's really
> not a serious topic.
>
> I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
> Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
> out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
> I got one of those blue letters in the
> blue envelope directly from Darwin/
> Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
> chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
> Klemp became the LEM. But what was
> written in this letter rather surprised
> me. Darwin stated that chelas should
> not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
> The implication or direct statement
> was that this was too casual. There
> may have been a statement about how
> Eckankar needed to project a better
> image.
>
> I believe he made additional statements
> about other articles of clothing, but
> I especially noticed the word "Levis"
> because this is actually a trademarked
> name of a company, not a type of clothing.
> I am assuming that what he raelly meant
> was "blue jeans," but he might have also
> been including other styles of pants
> which were just as casual.
>
> This letter bothered me, and not just
> because I hate to dress up, and I also
> hate it when people tell me I have to
> dress up. The other reason that it
> bothered me was that a month or two
> before I received this letter from Darwin,
> I had listened to an audio tape where
> he emphatically stated "There are no
> rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
> I'm reading this letter and thinking to
> myself "Wait a minute! What did you
> just say in your tape!?"
>
> I realize that this isn't the most important
> topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
> expand on it a bit. The really humerous
> thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
> up when he gave talks although I didn't
> even think about that when I read that letter
> (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
> could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
> Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
> a dress shirt, but the top button was
> unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
> a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
> To Know" where he is apparently signing
> autographs for chelas and he is dressed
> like this. I would assume that this took
> place at a major seminar.
>
> But as I was driving my car this morning,
> something occurred to me. Klemp always
> wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
>
> I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
>
> Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
> the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
> tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
> Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
> "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
> it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
> make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
> you hang out around the members of
> Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
> obsessed with how the public percieves
> Eckankar.
>
> AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
> Paul to share. There was a talk that
> Paul gave to an American audience where
> he was telling them about his expereince
> in giving talks in Europe. He said that
> he would start out the talk all dressed
> up, but as the talk went on he would take
> his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
> floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
> loosened his tie up, which meant that
> he actually was wearing one. Put it was
> funny when Paul commented on the
> reaction of the Europen audiences:
>
> "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
> down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
> and also as a story pointing out the difference
> between Americans being more casual
> than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
> wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
> progressed, his desire for personal comfort
> apparently won out over his desire to present
> the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
> anyway so I think that he really didn't care
> very much waht people thought.
>
> But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
> that he sent out a lot of letters directly
> to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
> he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
> that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
> point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
>
> Two questions:
> 1. Does anybody but me remember that
> letter that Darwin sent out?
>
> 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
> giving talks?

Prometheus,

Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.

I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979,
and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about
him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music
onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort into
dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to how
people dress.

That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The
hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one of
many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening to
a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to
people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation
use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial
tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example he
gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but
people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said
"Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason. So
I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin is
doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked name
(Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I
doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.

I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest
in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin never
managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol

It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our
lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band music
and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I
even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a big
comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal
fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at the
time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even
believing him outright.

One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday
morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must be
going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By
the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just
down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church )I
was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the attire
for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress
suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still be
surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.

For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the
seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual. It
does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in Eckankar
1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one,
things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few
people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family
that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the center
dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an
example for everyone to "dress up."

I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years
toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on dressing
up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said that
he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that people
in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't remember
that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.


--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> No, I don't remember that letter about
> Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
> wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
> and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
> wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
> or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
> casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
> and khaki slacks when walking to and from
> seminar meetings, and this is how he
> often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
> Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
> with him for outside or for a more formal
> look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
> for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
> he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
> and the gang.
>
> Maybe you could go on Facebook
> and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
> then ask him some things about Darwin.
> Who knows... he might be willing to share
> some history. Then again, he might be
> afraid to share things if it got back to
> HK that he was talking about Darwin.
>
> It is funny to see those Passing of the
> Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
> light blue dress shirts with collars open!
>
> Yes, I remember that I was told that there
> were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
> were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
> By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
> except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
> expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
> added  his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
> to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
> Eventually HK had to write two leadership
> books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
> the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
>
> Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
> rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
> most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
> only natural that there should be open
> discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
> Only a religious leader can proclaim that
> Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
> in the next. But, not all religions have a
> God-like leader with the ultimate power
> and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
> and demote members without a trial or
> an open discussion or giving just cause
> via a two-way answering of questions.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> jonathanjohns wrote:
>
> Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
> message board and on the "other" board.
> Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
> or nostalgia. It's really
> not a serious topic.
>
> I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
> Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
> out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
> I got one of those blue letters in the
> blue envelope directly from Darwin/
> Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
> chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
> Klemp became the LEM. But what was
> written in this letter rather surprised
> me. Darwin stated that chelas should
> not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
> The implication or direct statement
> was that this was too casual. There
> may have been a statement about how
> Eckankar needed to project a better
> image.
>
> I believe he made additional statements
> about other articles of clothing, but
> I especially noticed the word "Levis"
> because this is actually a trademarked
> name of a company, not a type of clothing.
> I am assuming that what he raelly meant
> was "blue jeans," but he might have also
> been including other styles of pants
> which were just as casual.
>
> This letter bothered me, and not just
> because I hate to dress up, and I also
> hate it when people tell me I have to
> dress up. The other reason that it
> bothered me was that a month or two
> before I received this letter from Darwin,
> I had listened to an audio tape where
> he emphatically stated "There are no
> rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
> I'm reading this letter and thinking to
> myself "Wait a minute! What did you
> just say in your tape!?"
>
> I realize that this isn't the most important
> topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
> expand on it a bit. The really humerous
> thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
> up when he gave talks although I didn't
> even think about that when I read that letter
> (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
> could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
> Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
> a dress shirt, but the top button was
> unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
>  a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
> To Know" where he is apparently signing
> autographs for chelas and he is dressed
> like this. I would assume that this took
> place at a major seminar.
>
> But as I was driving my car this morning,
> something occurred to me. Klemp always
> wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
>
> I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
>
> Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
> the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
> tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
> Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
> "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
> it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
> make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
> you hang out around the members of
> Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
> obsessed with how the public percieves
> Eckankar.
>
> AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
> Paul to share. There was a talk that
> Paul gave to an American audience where
> he was telling them about his expereince
> in giving talks in Europe. He said that
> he would start out the talk all dressed
> up, but as the talk went on he would take
> his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
> floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
> loosened his tie up, which meant that
> he actually was wearing one. Put it was
> funny when Paul commented on the
> reaction of the Europen audiences:
>
> "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
> down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
> and also as a story pointing out the difference
> between Americans being more casual
> than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
> wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
> progressed, his desire for personal comfort
> apparently won out over his desire to present
> the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
> anyway so I think that he really didn't care
> very much waht people thought.
>
> But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
> that he sent out a lot of letters directly
> to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
> he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
> that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
> point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
>
> Two questions:
> 1. Does anybody but me remember that
> letter that Darwin sent out?
>
> 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
> giving talks?
>

Hi Mike -

Yeah, it's not good thinking that passing on eckbooks might infect someone, like
the way I got hooked by a donated library book.  I still feel sick to my stomach
thinking about a young man who was interested in some of the things I said in a
religion class back in the early 90's.  I gave him LTG 1 & 2.  I don't know what
happened, but I'm very happy because I know anyone else I gave books to, or took
to intro sessions, had the sense not to fall for it.

Unless you think you'd feel better if you burned them, I wouldn't hesitate to
sell them or even donate them to your local thrift store, or swap them if you've
got a local used book store that does that.  What can you do is simply write
"cult" on the inside cover, along with a few website addresses.  BTW, although
few people actually check out all those donated library books, if you run across
them either in the library or bookstores, carry a few little cards with a little
note saying it's a cult, Twitch plagiarized, URLs, whatever, and stick them in
the books.  <gg>

I certainly would never give them to the local eck center.

I plan to sell my eckstuff eventually.  You might want to check out auction
sites other than Ebay, where I've heard you pay less for listings.  Oh, there
are also online swap sites, like paperbackswap.com  (I think that's it).

No harm in making a few $, considering what our years in the cult cost us!

I've seen high prices for cult books on the internet, but I don't think anyone
actually buys them.

Best wishes!!

Hugs,

Sharon

PS - oh, it's sort of funny, but to this day I often see Darwin's "Your Right To
Know" at yard sales & used book stores!!  And if you've got "Introduction to
Eckankar", Etznab is looking for it!






--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "violinmike2002" <violinmike2002@...>
wrote:
>
>    I'm quite the clutterbug and have been sorting out a lot of these cult
books.
> Some of these eck books are out of print like dialogues with the master,the
tuba er flute of god, Illuminated way letters and even a Darwin gross paperback
Your Right to know. Harolds large print bedtime
> books.I have an original tired hard copy of Stranger by the river with a Las
vegas address sticker in it. Never did understand the
> talons of time. or the Way of Dharma. Holey crap the Way of dharma
> is listing for 15 bucks on Ebay!
>
http://cgi.ebay.ca/*THE-WAY-OF-DHARMA-Paul-Twitchell_W0QQitemZ390120336119QQcmdZ\
ViewItemQQimsxZ20091119?IMSfp=TL091119161
>     Heres the conundrum. What to do with them? Its very hard for me to throw
books away. so what would you do with them other then that.Might be liberating 
though to send them to the dump.
> Leave them in a basket on the eck centers doorway? Sell the rarities on E bay?
Be selling the junk to a junkie though
>  Also what did YOU do with yours?
>    Enough time has passed that I don't need to hold on to them.
> I don't want them to infect someone else with their memes. But someone who has
the eck virus hardcore isn't really going to be affected any more then they
already are.
>
> Hmmm
>
>                                               Mike
>

I'm quite the clutterbug and have been sorting out a lot of these cult books.
Some of these eck books are out of print like dialogues with the master,the tuba
er flute of god, Illuminated way letters and even a Darwin gross paperback Your
Right to know. Harolds large print bedtime
books.I have an original tired hard copy of Stranger by the river with a Las
vegas address sticker in it. Never did understand the
talons of time. or the Way of Dharma. Holey crap the Way of dharma
is listing for 15 bucks on Ebay!
http://cgi.ebay.ca/*THE-WAY-OF-DHARMA-Paul-Twitchell_W0QQitemZ390120336119QQcmdZ\
ViewItemQQimsxZ20091119?IMSfp=TL091119161
     Heres the conundrum. What to do with them? Its very hard for me to throw
books away. so what would you do with them other then that.Might be liberating 
though to send them to the dump.
Leave them in a basket on the eck centers doorway? Sell the rarities on E bay?
Be selling the junk to a junkie though
  Also what did YOU do with yours?
    Enough time has passed that I don't need to hold on to them.
I don't want them to infect someone else with their memes. But someone who has
the eck virus hardcore isn't really going to be affected any more then they
already are.

Hmmm

                                               Mike

Hello All,
No, I don't remember that letter about
Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
and khaki slacks when walking to and from
seminar meetings, and this is how he
often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
with him for outside or for a more formal
look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
and the gang.

Maybe you could go on Facebook
and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
then ask him some things about Darwin.
Who knows... he might be willing to share
some history. Then again, he might be
afraid to share things if it got back to
HK that he was talking about Darwin.

It is funny to see those Passing of the
Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
light blue dress shirts with collars open!

Yes, I remember that I was told that there
were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
added  his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
Eventually HK had to write two leadership
books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
the restrictions on thought and behaviour.

Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
only natural that there should be open
discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
Only a religious leader can proclaim that
Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
in the next. But, not all religions have a
God-like leader with the ultimate power
and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
and demote members without a trial or
an open discussion or giving just cause
via a two-way answering of questions.


Prometheus



jonathanjohns wrote:

Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
message board and on the "other" board.
Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
or nostalgia. It's really
not a serious topic.

I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
I got one of those blue letters in the
blue envelope directly from Darwin/
Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
Klemp became the LEM. But what was
written in this letter rather surprised
me. Darwin stated that chelas should
not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
The implication or direct statement
was that this was too casual. There
may have been a statement about how
Eckankar needed to project a better
image.

I believe he made additional statements
about other articles of clothing, but
I especially noticed the word "Levis"
because this is actually a trademarked
name of a company, not a type of clothing.
I am assuming that what he raelly meant
was "blue jeans," but he might have also
been including other styles of pants
which were just as casual.

This letter bothered me, and not just
because I hate to dress up, and I also
hate it when people tell me I have to
dress up. The other reason that it
bothered me was that a month or two
before I received this letter from Darwin,
I had listened to an audio tape where
he emphatically stated "There are no
rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
I'm reading this letter and thinking to
myself "Wait a minute! What did you
just say in your tape!?"

I realize that this isn't the most important
topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
expand on it a bit. The really humerous
thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
up when he gave talks although I didn't
even think about that when I read that letter
(circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
a dress shirt, but the top button was
unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
  a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
To Know" where he is apparently signing
autographs for chelas and he is dressed
like this. I would assume that this took
place at a major seminar.

But as I was driving my car this morning,
something occurred to me. Klemp always
wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
"presentable" to the public. I don't think that
it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
you hang out around the members of
Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
obsessed with how the public percieves
Eckankar.

AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
Paul to share. There was a talk that
Paul gave to an American audience where
he was telling them about his expereince
in giving talks in Europe. He said that
he would start out the talk all dressed
up, but as the talk went on he would take
his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
loosened his tie up, which meant that
he actually was wearing one. Put it was
funny when Paul commented on the
reaction of the Europen audiences:

"I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
and also as a story pointing out the difference
between Americans being more casual
than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
progressed, his desire for personal comfort
apparently won out over his desire to present
the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
anyway so I think that he really didn't care
very much waht people thought.

But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
that he sent out a lot of letters directly
to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
point where I pretty much ignored all of them.

Two questions:
1. Does anybody but me remember that
letter that Darwin sent out?

2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
giving talks?

Months ago I made a lot of posts on this message board and  on the "other"
board. Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia or nostalgia.  It's really
not a serious topic.

I joined Eckankar around 1979 when Darwin was still the LEM. One day, out of
nowhere, probably around 1980, I got one of those blue letters in the blue
envelope directly from Darwin/Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the chelas,
and I believe it was before Harold Klemp became the LEM. But what was written in
this letter rather surprised me. Darwin stated that chelas should not wear
"Levis" to the Eck seminars. The implication or direct statement was that this
was too casual. There may have been a statement about how Eckankar needed to
project a better image.

I believe he made additional statements about other articles of clothing, but I
especially noticed the word "Levis" because this is actually a trademarked name
of a company, not a type of clothing. I am assuming that what he raelly meant
was "blue jeans," but he might have also been including other styles of pants
which were just as casual.

This letter bothered me, and not just because I hate to dress up, and I also
hate it when people tell me I have to dress up. The other reason that it
bothered me was that a month or two before I received this letter from Darwin, I
had listened to an audio tape where he emphatically stated "There are no rules
and regulations in Eckankar." So I'm reading this letter and thinking to myself
"Wait a minute! What did you just say in your tape!?"

I realize that this isn't the most important topic about Eckankar, but I would
like to expand on it a bit. The really humerous thing is that Darwin didn't
exactly dress up when he gave talks although I didn't even think about that when
I read that letter (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM could do no wrong.  I
believe that for talks, Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps a dress shirt, but
the top button was unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is a photo in Darwin's
book "Your Right To Know" where he is apparently signing autographs for chelas
and he is dressed like this. I would assume that this took place at a major
seminar.

But as I was driving my car this morning, something occurred to me. Klemp always
wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this. Did Eckankar really transition
from "Darwing the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and tie man?" If it did, I
think that it reflects Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar "presentable" to
the public. I don't think that it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if you hang out around the members of
Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are obsessed with how the public percieves
Eckankar.

AS a sidelight, I have one memory about Paul to share. There was a talk that
Paul gave to an American audience where he was telling them about his expereince
in giving talks in Europe. He said that he would start out the talk all dressed
up, but as the talk went on he would take his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
floor, etc. I believe he also said that he loosened his tie up, which meant that
he actually was wearing one. Put it was funny when Paul commented on the
reaction of the Europen audiences: "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
down." Paul meant it as a humerous story, and also as a story pointing out the
difference between Americans being more causual that Europeans. So although Paul
apparently wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk progressed, his desire for
personal comfort apparently won out over his desire to present the "proper"
image. Paul was a nonconformist anyway so I think that he really didn't care
very much waht people thought.

But getting back to Darwin. It seemed that he sent out a lot of letters directly
to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp, he didn't seem to do that. Or
maybe after that Darwin letter, I had just reached the point where I pretty much
ignored all of them.

Two questions:
1. Does anybody but me remember that letter that Darwin sent out?
2. Did Darwin really dress casually when giving talks?

Hello Harrison and All,
Here're more contradictions (lies)
and pieces to the puzzle from PT
as he was tweaking his early creation
of Eckankar (These are more from
the two interviews listed below):

First, let's recall that Paul stated
in 1971 of "Difficulties of Becoming
the LEM" on pages 70-71 that
he received his 7th initiation on
his "first" 6 to 7 month visit (1947)
with Rebazar (initiations 3, 4, 5,
6, 7) and that he "finished" his
initiations with Rebazar on his
"second" visit to India (1951)
according to Klemp).

However, on page 48 Paul states
that his visit to India was to visit
Sudar Singh at the age of 15 (1923,
pg. 45), but he stayed for a year
(page 48) and returned to the
U.S. when he "was then about
sixteen" (1924). This is probably
when Twit is claiming that he
received his second initiation
from Sudar. Except, Marman
states that Twit never went to
Paris, France to meet Sudar
and Klemp states that at age
27 (1935) Twit was 'exaggerating'
and 'twisting facts."

Thus, the 1951 "second" visit
to get his final initiations from
Rebazar was actually his "third"
visit if you can believe that!

******

In the 1967 or 1969 article
"Soul Travel: Thousands Join Up
For a Journey to the Cosmic" by
Wanda Sue Parrot of the Herald-
Examiner is where she mentioned
that Twitchell was eating "chopped
sirloin (well done)," and that this
"old name" (Eckankar) "comes out
of prehistoric times."


Next is this PT quote:

"most of the work has been passed
down from Master to Chela. About
the sixteen to eighteen centuries,
it began to make its way out."

[Thus, around 1500 A.D. to 1700 A.D.
Eckankar "began to make its way out"]


'I receive letters from mostly women,'
he says. 'Most are middle-aged or
older, but many young women are
becoming interested in ECK."


'In 1965, after a long struggle,
Rebazar Tarzs prepared me to
take over the work,' he says.
On October 22, of that year the
"Rod of Power" was passed to him."

Yet, in "Difficulties" PT claims that
he "finished" his initiations with
Rebazar on his "second" trip to
India (1951).

******

In the July 9, 1963 Jack Jarvis article
in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Twitchell was noted for placing his
opinionated "Sour Grapes Award"
stickers in library books. However,
I'm amazed that this defacing and
PT's bias, judgmental and critical
opinion (negativity) was never
addressed.

This was the same article where PT
described the Negro as being 'Whacky
as a bug' for wanting to get into the
white man's society."

However, Twitchell makes more
negative comments, but this time
against women!

"... he feels that if a certain New York
publisher had more men than women
reading manuscripts, his diatribe
"All About Women" would have been
published, too."

[Yet, look at how PT, and the other
LEMs, have used women to do the
majority of the work, but limit them
from becoming the LEM.]

PT, also, has this to say about women:
"He dislikes career women and grubbing
for money."

"He (PT) is against 'the flapdoodle of
these modern times,' i.e. togetherness,
credit cards, insurance, and ranch-type
homes in the city."

Again, the quote of: "If he can't drink
champagne, he won't drink at all," tells
us more about Twitchell's lifestyle choices,
but, also, contradicts (maybe) the Four
Zoas. After all, if Twichell received the
7th in 1949 and the 12th in 1951 why
is he violating the Four Zoas by drinking
"champagne?" But, do the Four Zoas
really pertain to Higher Initiates above
the 5th?

When looking at the definitions for the
"Four Zoas" (laws) in Twitchell's
Eckankar Dictionary and in Klemp's EK
Lexicon it seems that they are ONLY to
be followed by the "Mahdis" (5th Initiate)
who has Not become a Cleric. And, although
"Mahdis" is a generic term for all "High
Initiates," it is specific to those 5ths who
don't want to participate by working
within the RESA hierarchy. "... he may
choose to serve as a quiet Co-worker..."
[pg. 132, EK Lexicon]

Thus, working within the RESA Hierarchy
by becoming a Cleric, as a Fifth, or by
becoming a 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th or
a 12th or a 14th Mahanta means that you
can drink alcohol AND violate, or disregard,
the other Laws of the Four Zoas since
(according to definition) they only pertain
to new Fifth Initiates!

Prometheus



harrisonferrel wrote:

I was thinking that it would be a good
idea (although I'm not sure who would
have the interest) to literally number the
lies and inconsistencies in eckankar.
For instance:

#1. twitchell said he was a vegetarian
(cite the source) then he remarked about
eating a steak (cite the source).

#2. twitchell said he was on a battleship
in WWII in the Pacific (cite the source),
but klemp talks about him never being
in the war (cite the source)

Shortly after I left eckankar I compiled
more than 400 pages of lies, inconsistencies,
threats and other bullshit teachings of
eckankar. I sent them to a very close
relative who is still in the cult and he
wouldn't look at it. On the other hand,
I sent it to my closest friend who was
in the cult and he left eckankar the week
he read it.

******
Hello Harrison and All,
Twitchell did make a racist comment
to Jack Jarvis in an interview for an
article that appeared in the July 9, 1963
edition of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

The article is titled, "Paul Twitchell,
Man of Parts."

BTW- According to Klemp, Twitchell
was born on October 22, 1908, therefore,
Twitchell was 55 years old at the time
of the interview and article.

"He shuns routine, thinks the Negro
is 'whacky as a bug' for wanting to
get into the white man's society..."

Here's some more from the same
article:

"He never smokes. If he can't drink
champagne, he won't drink at all.
He's a vegetarian... skip-reads
several thousand books a year...
smilingly views the rest of the
world with a sort of sardonic
tolerance."



FYI- Here's another PT excerpt from
another article "Soul Travel: Thousands
Join Up For a Journey to the Cosmic"
a few years later (circa 1967-69)
by Wanda Sue Parrot a Herald Examiner
staff writer. I think it's 1967-69
because, later, in the article Helen
Baird is quoted as saying she has
"been in the movement two years.'

"Over lunch recently, at which
time Twitchell dined on a diet
of chopped sirloin (well done),
jello and coffee, he explained,
'ECKANKAR, or ECK, is an old
name that comes out of prehistoric
times."

I guess that Twitchell changed
his mind about being a life-long
vegetarian!

And, if the name ECKankar, or
the nickname ECK came from
"prehistoric times" then it must
have come from Venus! There
was no "human," here, on earth,
that had a language that would
have had the word Eckankar.
Was there even an alphabet?

Anyway, the Venus EK Masters
of Gakko and Rami Nuriare fictional,
too, and that's why EK Vahanas
usually stay away from the "VENUS"
topic.

BTW- I wonder why HK didn't write
about the GAKKO in his "wonderful"
book?


Prometheus

harrisonferrel wrote:

Over the years I've only heard a couple
of suggestions that Twitchell was a racist.
Now I'm wondering about this myself, because
of a few things that I read a long time ago.

One of the eck books, maybe the shariyat,
talked about different peoples in twitchells'
absurd fiction on the beginnings of life and
humankind. Has anybody made any comparisons
or found plagiarisms or similarities between
his works and, let's say, Mein Kampf?

He did have this treatise about yellow, red,
black and white people and that all but the
whites were past their prime. I think that at
the time when you read such statements the
obvious racist overtones escape you.

But twitchell was a very limited, backwoods
yokel, so what else could it be but racism?

I was thinking that it would be a good idea (although I'm not sure who would
have the interest) to literally number the lies and inconsistencies in eckankar.
For instance:

#1. twitchell said he was a vegetarian (cite the source) then he remarked about
eating a steak (cite the source)
#2. twitchell said he was on a battleship in WWII in the Pacific (cite the
source), but klemp talks about him never being in the war (cite the source)

Shortly after I left eckankar I compiled more than 400 pages of lies,
inconsistencies, threats and other bullshit teachings of eckankar. I sent them
to a very close relative who is still in the cult and he wouldn't look at it. On
the other hand, I sent it to my closest friend who was in the cult and he left
eckankar the week he read it.

Funny how we've filled books worth of these inconsistencies and lies!

This leads me to make a point as to one of the main reasons why I got out of the
cult... My sense of logic said: If the leaders of eckankar have lied and
presented inconsistent statements, then the entire "teaching" must be
flawed...and why would I want to follow a flawed teaching with liars at the
helm? I also considered that if Klemp was willing to lie and cover up for
twitchell then he was nothing short of a con man and despicable character
himself.

Yet, apparently this doesn't bother your typical codependent eckist who will
make absurd excuses for their leaders. They will also exonerate klemp for
covering up for twitchell.

Another thing that literally made me laugh were the two accounts of Twitchell
during WWII. In one he was on a battleship in the Pacific and in another he
never went to war.



--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello Harrison and All,
> Twitchell did make a racist comment
> to Jack Jarvis in an interview for an
> article that appeared in the July 9, 1963
> edition of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.
>
> The article is titled, "Paul Twitchell,
> Man of Parts."
>
> BTW- According to Klemp, Twitchell
> was born on October 22, 1908, therefore,
> Twitchell was 55 years old at the time
> of the interview and article.
>
> "He shuns routine, thinks the Negro
> is 'whacky as a bug' for wanting to
> get into the white man's society..."
>
> Here's some more from the same
> article:
>
> "He never smokes. If he can't drink
> champagne, he won't drink at all.
> He's a vegetarian... skip-reads
> several thousand books a year...
> smilingly views the rest of the
> world with a sort of sardonic
> tolerance."
>
>
>
> FYI- Here's another excerpt from
> another article a few years later
> (circa 1967-69) by Wanda Sue
> Parrot a Herald Examiner staff
> writer. I think it's 1967-69 because,
> later, in the article Helen Baird
> is quoted as saying she has
> "been in the movement two
> years.'
>
> "Over lunch recently, at which
> time Twitchell dined on a diet
> of chopped sirloin (well done),
> jello and coffee, he explained,
> 'ECKANKAR, or ECK, is an old
> name that comes out of prehistoric
> times."
>
> I guess that Twitchell changed
> his mind about being a life-long
> vegetarian!
>
> And, if the name ECKankar, or
> the nickname ECK came from
> "prehistoric times" then it must
> have come from Venus! There
> was no "human," here, on earth,
> that had a language that would
> have had the word Eckankar.
>  Was there even an alphabet?
>
> Anyway, the Venus EK Masters
> of Gakko and Rami Nuriare fictional,
> too, and that's why EK Vahanas
> usually stay away from the "VENUS"
> topic.
>
> BTW- I wonder why HK didn't write
> about the GAKKO in his "wonderful"
> book?
>
>
> Prometheus
>
> harrisonferrel wrote:
>
> Over the years I've only heard a couple
> of suggestions that Twitchell was a racist.
> Now I'm wondering about this myself, because
> of a few things that I read a long time ago.
>
> One of the eck books, maybe the shariyat,
> talked about different peoples in twitchells'
> absurd fiction on the beginnings of life and
> humankind. Has anybody made any comparisons
> or found plagiarisms or similarities between
> his works and, let's say, Mein Kampf?
>
> He did have this treatise about yellow, red,
> black and white people and that all but the
> whites were past their prime. I think that at
> the time when you read such statements the
> obvious racist overtones escape you.
>
> But twitchell was a very limited, backwoods
> yokel, so what else could it be but racism?
>

Hello Harrison and All,
Twitchell did make a racist comment
to Jack Jarvis in an interview for an
article that appeared in the July 9, 1963
edition of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

The article is titled, "Paul Twitchell,
Man of Parts."

BTW- According to Klemp, Twitchell
was born on October 22, 1908, therefore,
Twitchell was 55 years old at the time
of the interview and article.

"He shuns routine, thinks the Negro
is 'whacky as a bug' for wanting to
get into the white man's society..."

Here's some more from the same
article:

"He never smokes. If he can't drink
champagne, he won't drink at all.
He's a vegetarian... skip-reads
several thousand books a year...
smilingly views the rest of the
world with a sort of sardonic
tolerance."



FYI- Here's another excerpt from
another article a few years later
(circa 1967-69) by Wanda Sue
Parrot a Herald Examiner staff
writer. I think it's 1967-69 because,
later, in the article Helen Baird
is quoted as saying she has
"been in the movement two
years.'

"Over lunch recently, at which
time Twitchell dined on a diet
of chopped sirloin (well done),
jello and coffee, he explained,
'ECKANKAR, or ECK, is an old
name that comes out of prehistoric
times."

I guess that Twitchell changed
his mind about being a life-long
vegetarian!

And, if the name ECKankar, or
the nickname ECK came from
"prehistoric times" then it must
have come from Venus! There
was no "human," here, on earth,
that had a language that would
have had the word Eckankar.
  Was there even an alphabet?

Anyway, the Venus EK Masters
of Gakko and Rami Nuriare fictional,
too, and that's why EK Vahanas
usually stay away from the "VENUS"
topic.

BTW- I wonder why HK didn't write
about the GAKKO in his "wonderful"
book?


Prometheus

harrisonferrel wrote:

Over the years I've only heard a couple
of suggestions that Twitchell was a racist.
Now I'm wondering about this myself, because
of a few things that I read a long time ago.

One of the eck books, maybe the shariyat,
talked about different peoples in twitchells'
absurd fiction on the beginnings of life and
humankind. Has anybody made any comparisons
or found plagiarisms or similarities between
his works and, let's say, Mein Kampf?

He did have this treatise about yellow, red,
black and white people and that all but the
whites were past their prime. I think that at
the time when you read such statements the
obvious racist overtones escape you.

But twitchell was a very limited, backwoods
yokel, so what else could it be but racism?

Here's the link.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ICb2ShGN8y-oenfcfBIUl1yz4eGE06Q1xCwfKI9TAwxqfbAME3s\
0Ct0R_TH_Po9iF9zNZGaQaw_kIndLPIx7qS63wfSP/Frye%2C%20God.jpg

--- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
>
>
> This one file didn't load all the way.
> In other words, it had a lot of gray.
>
> Frye, God.jpg
> LEM declares "I am not God" in court.
> (Small size)
>
> Etznab
>

This one file didn't load all the way.
In other words, it had a lot of gray.

Frye, God.jpg
LEM declares "I am not God" in court.
(Small size)

Etznab