Thank You Reed

Richard

Don,

You wrote:
"Paul adds some good things, such as women must wear a head covering, but the main teachings come from our Lord Jesus directly through the gospels."

You also wrote:
"Please remember that Paul did not spend three years learning from Jesus as Peter and John did.  Does that simple fact mean anything to you?"

What it seems to me that you are clearly implying, Don,  is that we are to distinguish between Jesus and Paul, and between Peter, John and Paul, as who is "more anointed" or "more to be received".  Yet the Jesus you say you are prefering Himself said of His apostles: 

Matt. 10:40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." 

The "you" of that passage is His 12 apostles; but when He directly and supernaturally commissioned Paul to be His apostles to the gentiles, no reasonable person can deny that Matthew 10:40 applies to Paul as well: "He who receives you is receiving ME."  To try to drive a wedge between Christ and His personally chosen apostles, or to drive a wedge between those chosen apostles is to come under the rebuke of Paul to the Corinthians:

1 Cor. 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Those who said that they were "of Christ" were coming under the same rebuke as those who selected one apostle over another: who are you, oh man, to think you can be the judge of ANY of them.  You are to trust the ability of the Father and the Spirit to speak through them all.  You do not dare to judge between them: you gather their teachings all together and make sure your conclusions agree with each and ALL of them when taken in the same literal and natural sense.

Christ and all of His holy apostles stand together in a divinely-created unity.  You seem to abrogating to yourself a privilege that God grants to no human being, Don.  Beware.

Reed

--- In earlychristianstoday@yahoogroups.com, "Don Murphy" <don@...> wrote:
>
> Jeff, if you mean that I don't hold Paul of Tarus in as high opinion as you do, that seems to be correct. Perhaps you feel that I am blaspheming something that you hold sacred. Could that be?
>
> Please remember that Paul did not spend three years learning from Jesus as Peter and John did. Does that simple fact mean anything to you?
>
> a brother in Christ,
>
> Don Murphy
> Tucson, AZ
> www.AnabaptistChurch.org
>
> Jesus said, "People will know that you are my disciples by your love for one another." (John 13:35)
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeffrey Cobb
> To: earlychristianstoday@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstoday] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
>
>
>
>
>
> OK, statement retracted about you not considering Paul of Tarsus less gifted than Jacob Hutter.
>
> Everything else, I stand by.
>
> You did say Hutter's fruits are greater than Paul's.
>
> I have offered a mere sampling of the great works Jesus asked Paul to do. Paul said He obeyed fully.
>
> Luke documents it.
>
> I am beginning to suspect your effective discount of Paul negates the authenticity of the New Testament, or else, you are missing a whole lot in your examination of the Word.
>
> I think you are starting to sound like someone in left field.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
> --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Don Murphy don@... wrote:
>
>
> From: Don Murphy don@...
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstoday] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
> To: earlychristianstoday@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 1:36 PM
>
>
> 
>
> Jeff wrote: "Plus, Paul - though perhaps not as gifted as Hutter in your estimation - wrote this:"
>
> Be careful, Jeff, I have said no such thing about Jacob Hutter being more gifted than Paul of Tarus.
>
> As for 1 Cor 13, you might notice that Paul's idea of love is not the same as that of Jesus and the apostle John.
>
> Paul says that love has to do with interpersonal relationships. Jesus said love includes obeying His commands and John said that love includes helping those in need. So Paul's definition of love in 1 Cor 13 is good but incomplete as it doesn't cover what Jesus and John mentioned about love.
>
> We have to read the whole New Testament and see it all in the light of the teachings of Christ and His Apostles that spent three years learning from Him. Paul adds some good things, such as women must wear a head covering, but the main teachings come from our Lord Jesus directly through the gospels.
>
> a brother in Christ,
>
> Don Murphy
> Tucson, AZ
> www.AnabaptistChurc h.org
>
> Jesus said, "People will know that you are my disciples by your love for one another." (John 13:35)
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeffrey Cobb
> To: earlychristianstoda y@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstod ay] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
>
>
> You better believe you can compare the fruit of Paul's ministry to Jacob Hutter's.
>
> I know Paul much better than Hutter's, to be sure, however what I said already I stand by.
>
> Plus, Paul - though perhaps not as gifted as Hutter in your estimation - wrote this:
>
>
> 1 Corinthians 13 (New King James Version)
> 1 Corinthians 13
> The Greatest Gift
> 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
> 4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
> 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
> 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
> 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
>
>
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
> --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Don Murphy don@AnabaptistChurc h.org> wrote:
>
>
> From: Don Murphy don@AnabaptistChurc h.org>
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstod ay] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
> To: earlychristianstoda y@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 10:33 AM
>
>
> 
>
> Jeff, the Lord Jesus taught us that we can tell the worth of a preacher/teacher by the fruit that he produces. And He wants them to produce the fruit of love.
>
> So what is love? Jesus defined the fruit of love in action when He told about the Last Judgment, it is showing love to God's children.
>
> Can we compare the fruit of Paul's ministry with that of Jacob Hutter's?
>
> If we use the love lifestyle of the church in Acts 2 and 4, did Paul's ministry produce that same fruit of love?
>
> Did Jacob Hutter's? (In case you don't know him, Jacob Hutter was one of the Anabaptist leaders in the 16th century who helped restore the lifestyle of the church to that shown in the Book of Acts 2:44-47 and 4:32-5:11.)
>
> Remember that Jesus told those 'super' Christians in Mt 7, the ones who did miracles in His name, He told them that He did not know them because they did not do what He told them to do. So miracles are not always the way to judge a preacher, it is the fruit that his preaching produces.
>
> a brother in Christ,
>
> Don Murphy
> Tucson, AZ
> www.AnabaptistChurc h.org
>
> Jesus said, "People will know that you are my disciples by your love for one another." (John 13:35)
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeffrey Cobb
> To: earlychristianstoda y@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 8:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstod ay] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
>
>
> We each have gifts and callings planted in us by God before the foundation of the world.
>
> So, yes, God spoke to Paul according to who he was in Christ. And to Jacob Hutter, according to his gift and calling.
>
> And I LOVE what Paul said about great preachers who even in his day wanted to show him up, and correct him.
>
> He said, those itinerant preachers added nothing to him. He wrote Galatians just to counter other allegedly brilliant gospel teachers.
>
> He said he would not know them by their word, but by their power.
>
> He said the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
>
> His "preaching," he told the Corinthians, was deliberately downplayed.
>
> He did not come with wisdom, and his physical appearance was said to be contemptible, but he spoke in demonstration of power, and interpreted Jesus' ministry like no one ever had since.
>
> He was personally picked by Jesus for this ministry.
>
> One time he spoke all night, and a young man dozed off, and fell out of a window, and was taken up dead. Paul said, he is only sleeping, and raised him from the dead.
>
> Did any of your heros ever do that?
>
> I repeat: Apart from Jesus Christ, I will consider Paul's words concerning the Gospel.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
> --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Don Murphy don@AnabaptistChurc h.org> wrote:
>
>
> From: Don Murphy don@AnabaptistChurc h.org>
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstod ay] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
> To: earlychristianstoda y@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 10:51 PM
>
>
> 
>
> Jeff wrote: "I will trust Paul before Menno Simons, or anyone else in more recent history."
>
> Yeah, why? Isn't it the same Holy Spirit who speaks?
>
> Does He speak differently to Paul than to the Jacob Hutter?
>
> hat was the fruit of Paul's preaching compared to Jacob Hutter's?
>
> a brother in Christ,
>
> Don Murphy
> Tucson, AZ
> www.AnabaptistChurc h.org
>
> Jesus said, "People will know that you are my disciples by your love for one another." (John 13:35)
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeffrey Cobb
> To: earlychristianstoda y@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 7:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstod ay] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
>
>
> Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount before the Holy Spirit was outpoured.
>
> While His words were diligently recorded, MANY did not know what to make fully of it.
>
> I am sure God's Spirit was there, touching hearts, but teh full meaning of Christ's ministry was not fully clarified until a few years later.
>
> Heresy and all manner of private interpretation were rampant from the start.
>
> Paul the Apostle was raised up, and given an understanding by which he was personally moved to rebuke Peter publicly, and establish churches with, and write epistles by.
>
> He said Jesus Christ will judge all by "my [Paul's] gospel."
>
> He was more than a little adamant about what he knew. He said I know in whom I have believed!
>
> Much of this talk in this thread interpreting what it takes to be saved has been by people moved by followers of post-Reformation followers of European Christians who make much of interpretations of the Sermon on the Mount.
>
> Personally, I would not disregard Paul, who was personally recruited by the Lord Jesus.
>
> Short of Jesus Christ, not many men ever made greater claims for themselves with regards to their knowledge of the Way.
>
> I will trust Paul before Menno Simons, or anyone else in more recent history.
>
> Any interpretation I hear with regard to the commands of Jesus, or what Jesus really required, I will have to square with the writings of Paul who had no doubt.
>
> Romans is clear: We do have an Adamic nature. If we walk in the Spirit, then and only then will we not act according to that Adamic nature.
>
> Without Jesus, I can do nothing (and this word is not Paul's, but the Lord's)!
>
> Self effort gives no glory to God.
>
> This does not contradict the dictate to be holy, for He is holy.
>
> This is the Way I speak of.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
> --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Clifford George Harper <harpercliffordgeorg e@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Clifford George Harper <harpercliffordgeorg e@...>
> Subject: Re: [earlychristianstod ay] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
> To: earlychristianstoda y@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:05 PM
>
>
>
> Okay, folks, I'm confused. I never understood how "many are called, but few are chosen" or the "narrow door." Having survived a few extraordinary traumas and seeing the true nature of people, including many who call themselves, and believe they are, Christians. I keep thinking of the Old Testament and how God always blessed obedience and was patient with disobedience but always there was chastening and disciplining. In the New Testament the greatest of the commands is to love one another and our neighbors and of course we must love God. Scripture teaches us we show our love for God by our obedience. We're stuck with this Adamic nature, so then we have willful sin and sin that is not willful; it just happens because we are human with sinful natures. And we have the Holy Spirit which comes into us when we believe, right? So my thinking (obviously I am not on the same level as you guys) is that though many profess to be followers of Christ and do things in His name (many will say to me Lord, Lord, did we not ... and I will say depart from me, ye worker of iniquity...) but God knows those who truly are and those who truly are not -- we are not to judge -- so some will not get in -- the narrow door is the one that is hard because the Christian walk is hard. It is hard because we are in the world but not of the world and we must always choose the way that is opposite of what the world chooses and choose to please God and not man...
>
> and many do not want to do this and that's why the gate is narrow?
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> From: Richard Mummau rmummau@redrose. net>
> To: earlychristianstoda y@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:35:53 PM
> Subject: RE: [earlychristianstod ay] Love is the fruit that we are to produce
>
>
>
> Who will try to enter through that "narrow door"? Only Christians, right? Non-Christians would not try. Only a few Christians will make every effort to enter through the narrow door. Isn't that what Jesus is saying?
>
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =
>
> No, this is not what he is saying.
>
>
>
> The person who is standing and looking at the two gates an deciding which gate he wants to enter is not a Christian. He can choose the broad gate and *think* that he is a Christian, or he can choose the narrow gate which is true conversion.
>
>
>
> Jesus is showing us that if a person decides that they truly want to become a Christian, they will need to enter at the narrow gate. It involves repentance and dying to self.
>
>
>
> The broad gate is what is offered by many churches today. Just come and you don’t have to change a thing. Just give a mental assent to the truth and you will be a Christian. These people end up on the broad way but think that they are on the way to heaven.
>
>
>
> People who enter the broad gate believe that it will lead them to heaven, but when they get to the end of their journey, they will be in hell.
>
>
>
> Or he can choose neither and just go on his way as an unbeliever.
>
>
>
> Richard
>