Cultural History Goes On-Line

ARCHITECTURAL HERITAGE CAST IN A NEW LIGHT

JAMES ROUGVIE

THE first virtual archive of Scotland’s architectural history is to be
put on the Internet, thanks to a £330,000 grant.
	 Dundee University’s archives department has won funding to create a
digital archive holding 18,000 important drawings, texts and photographs
by some of the country’s architectural luminaries, including Sir Robert
Rowand Anderson, Alexander "Greek"Thomson, Charles Rennie Mackintosh and
William Adam.
The period will span 200 years, from the dawn of industrialisation to
the new millennium, and will take three years to complete. According to
the professor of architectural history at the university, Charles
McKean, it could lead, to a reappraisal of Scotland’s cultural history.
The university, which already holds an important collection of drawings.
will lead a consortium of partners, which includes the universities of
St Andrews, Edinburgh, Strathclyde and Glasgow, Glasgow School of Art,
the National Archives of Scotland, the Royal Incorporation of Architects
in Scotland, the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historic Monuments,
local authorities and Glamis Castle estate.
Drawings held by many councils will be particularly important; they not
only record buildings, but demonstrate changing municipal fashions and
official requirements for space, structure and drainage.
Prof McKean said: "Much of the information has never before been
available, even to the most assiduous researcher. While it is difficult
to predict the extent of its impact, it is likely to be enormous. As
this core of Scotland’s historic culture is revealed. our perception of
the country’s cultural development could be transformed."
One common misconception from the last century, said Prof McKean, was
that Scottish entrepreneurs returning from overseas with fortunes made
from the empire built baronial piles which appeared to be a throwback to
an earlier style.
What the drawings now disclose is that the nouveaux riches were actually
building the most modern houses they could within a baronial turreted
facade. "They were filled with all mod cons because they wanted the most
up-to-date conveniences their money could buy."
Neither were the jute-masters who topped off mills with arching ironwork
and glass cupolas merely putting the icing on a particularly dull Dundee
cake. "This was not decoration for its own sake.
"The Gothic arch was the lightest truss you could make and the spaces
made the roof space useable to accommodate machinery."
Prof McKean said putting this wealth of material on the internet would
bring Scotland’s architectural and social culture within the reach of
the public and also make it accessible to historians.
It will take the staff three years to select and scan the drawings, many
of which are table-sized and need a large-scale digital camera capable
of high degrees of resolution.
A Dundee archivist, Pat Whatley, said large-format drawings and plans
brought their own problems of access and storage and were vulnerable to
damage caused by handling. Storing the images on computer would preserve
the originals from further damage and make them available to researchers
from other disciplines all over the world.
"The things we uncover may change people’s perceptions of how Scotland
was built."

From The Scotsman  Monday 2nd August 1999
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

I have uploaded a picture of a plan which was used to illustrate the
Scotsman article.
I suspect I should have sent a JPEG rather than a GIF!
It's a bit large - 1.48 MB
Called  Image1.gif - not very explanatory - I'm only a beginner!  :o)

--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Don McEwan wrote:
>
> I have uploaded a picture of a plan which was used to illustrate the
> Scotsman article.
> I suspect I should have sent a JPEG rather than a GIF!
> It's a bit large - 1.48 MB
> Called  Image1.gif - not very explanatory - I'm only a beginner!  :o)
>
> --
> Don McEwan

I have now uploaded it as 'DensWorks.jpg', which is only 365K !!  :o)

I'll have to see if there is any noticeable difference in clarity.

--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Don McEwan wrote:
>
> Don McEwan wrote:
> >
> > I have uploaded a picture of a plan which was used to illustrate the
> > Scotsman article.
> > I suspect I should have sent a JPEG rather than a GIF!
> > It's a bit large - 1.48 MB
> > Called  Image1.gif - not very explanatory - I'm only a beginner!  :o)
> >
> > --
> > Don McEwan
>
> I have now uploaded it as 'DensWorks.jpg', which is only 365K !!  :o)
>
> I'll have to see if there is any noticeable difference in clarity.
>
I should have said the paper picture was NOT clear, so don't be
disappointed when you can't read the street names etc.

I'll get this right eventually - I should be in bed!



--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Good Morning! I am new to this group. I'm researching my family who
started out in Dundee. Am very interested in learning more about
Dundee. According to a marriage record I have the residence is listed
as Makwellown. Is this in Dundee, or possibly elsewhere. The writing is
hard to read, but I think that is the spelling.

At 06:39  4/08/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Good Morning! I am new to this group. I'm researching my family who
>started out in Dundee. Am very interested in learning more about
>Dundee. According to a marriage record I have the residence is listed
>as Makwellown.

I am pretty sure that your address is referring to the area called
Maxwelltown,
which was up near the top of the Hilltown, over on it's east side. (RHS going
up the Hill !)

This was land feued from the Maxwell family of Tealing. Quite a distinguished
family!

The first Maxwell was Eustace, who obtained the lands by his marriage to
Agnes,
heiress of Sir John Gifford in 1240.  About 1780, the land at Hilltown was
acquired from David Maxwell, Lord Dean of Guild, the last of the name holding
the estate of Tealing.  Many of the Streets in this area were named after
members of his family, Ann St., Eliza St., George St etc

Hope this is of interest , and helps you just a bit.

Jim R   Eumundi, Qld., Oz.

It will be Maxwelltown, an area which sits to the east of Hilltown, to the
north east of the city centre.  A lot this area was redeveloped in the
1960's.

I remember hearing that in earlier times the name referred to a slightly
different area, perhaps one slightly further south.  Perhaps someone else
knows more about this as I can't remember the source.

Grant Buttars
(Dundee Scotland)
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~gbuttars/
----- Original Message -----
From: <cb678@...>
To: <dundee-history@eGroups.com>
Sent: 04 August 1999 14:39
Subject: [dundee-history] Location of Residence


> Good Morning! I am new to this group. I'm researching my family who
> started out in Dundee. Am very interested in learning more about
> Dundee. According to a marriage record I have the residence is listed
> as Makwellown. Is this in Dundee, or possibly elsewhere. The writing is
> hard to read, but I think that is the spelling.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.
> Start with up to 150 Points for joining!
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/630
>
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/dundee-history
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>

I am uploading three photos I took this summer.
They show South Baffin Street, leading from Ferry Road.
This is where I remember a Plaque which said (roughly) 'This marks the
location of the cottage in which Mary Shelley, Author of 'Frankenstein',
stayed.'
Whether it was here she actually WROTE the book, I don't know.

It appears that the original Plaque has been removed - by Dundee City
Council? - and a WOODEN replacement installed.
It looked to me as if there had been a small strip plate fixed under the
symbolic 'Tower' - possibly with an explanation.
I DON'T think this is the actual Plaque which I remember.

--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Don McEwan wrote:
>
> I am uploading three photos I took this summer.
> They show South Baffin Street, leading from Ferry Road.
> This is where I remember a Plaque which said (roughly) 'This marks the
> location of the cottage in which Mary Shelley, Author of 'Frankenstein',
> stayed.'
> Whether it was here she actually WROTE the book, I don't know.
>
> It appears that the original Plaque has been removed - by Dundee City
> Council? - and a WOODEN replacement installed.
> It looked to me as if there had been a small strip plate fixed under the
> symbolic 'Tower' - possibly with an explanation.
> I DON'T think this is the actual Plaque which I remember.
> .................................................................

You may be able to see a date in the top left corner of Photo 3 - I
haven't quite got it cleaarly in the photo and I didn't make a note at
the time.  But it is something like 1888 / 1889 / 1898.
Any suggestions about the holes which look like 'Gun Loops' - I doubt
this is part of the original Dundee City Wall - but you never know.
If they are artificial / decorative Victorian architectural items - WHY?
Admittedly they face invaders from the River!

Overseas subscribers may be interested in the buildigs on either side of
Baffin Street (named because of the whaling history?).
They look like typical turn of the century tenement houses, four storeys
with a 'close' entrance from the pavement (USay 'sidewalk!).
It appears ther are two windows on one side of a close and one one the
other side.  This is a common layout, I think, where one side of the
close had a larger house than the other, say two bwdrooms and one
bedroom.

South Baffin Street has clearly been closed off from Ferry Road, which
is a very busy main artery road from the City Centre to Broughty Ferry,
Monifieth etc.
You may be able to see modern housing at the top of the stairs, this
whole area along and behind Ferry Road has been demolished and rebuilt.

I hope this is of interest to some?

--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Don,
My original query was "why was it moved from Castle St.", but now it is "why
was it in Castle St. in the first place."  Incidentally didn't get any
pictures.
Nat.

----- Original Message -----
From: Don McEwan <don.mcewan@...>
To: <dundee-history@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:45 PM
Subject: [dundee-history] Re: [] Mary Shelley Plaque


> Don McEwan wrote:
> >
> > I am uploading three photos I took this summer.
> > They show South Baffin Street, leading from Ferry Road.
> > This is where I remember a Plaque which said (roughly) 'This marks the
> > location of the cottage in which Mary Shelley, Author of 'Frankenstein',
> > stayed.'
> > Whether it was here she actually WROTE the book, I don't know.
> >
> > It appears that the original Plaque has been removed - by Dundee City
> > Council? - and a WOODEN replacement installed.
> > It looked to me as if there had been a small strip plate fixed under the
> > symbolic 'Tower' - possibly with an explanation.
> > I DON'T think this is the actual Plaque which I remember.
> > .................................................................
>
> You may be able to see a date in the top left corner of Photo 3 - I
> haven't quite got it cleaarly in the photo and I didn't make a note at
> the time.  But it is something like 1888 / 1889 / 1898.
> Any suggestions about the holes which look like 'Gun Loops' - I doubt
> this is part of the original Dundee City Wall - but you never know.
> If they are artificial / decorative Victorian architectural items - WHY?
> Admittedly they face invaders from the River!
>
> Overseas subscribers may be interested in the buildigs on either side of
> Baffin Street (named because of the whaling history?).
> They look like typical turn of the century tenement houses, four storeys
> with a 'close' entrance from the pavement (USay 'sidewalk!).
> It appears ther are two windows on one side of a close and one one the
> other side.  This is a common layout, I think, where one side of the
> close had a larger house than the other, say two bwdrooms and one
> bedroom.
>
> South Baffin Street has clearly been closed off from Ferry Road, which
> is a very busy main artery road from the City Centre to Broughty Ferry,
> Monifieth etc.
> You may be able to see modern housing at the top of the stairs, this
> whole area along and behind Ferry Road has been demolished and rebuilt.
>
> I hope this is of interest to some?
>
> --
> Don McEwan
> Lothian
> SCOTLAND
>
> Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
> <mailto:don.mcewan@...>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning
> FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/449
>
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/dundee-history
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>

Nathan C ornfoot wrote:
>
> Don,
> My original query was "why was it moved from Castle St.", but now it is "why
> was it in Castle St. in the first place."  Incidentally didn't get any
> pictures.
> Nat.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don McEwan <don.mcewan@...>
>
> Subject: [dundee-history] Re: [] Mary Shelley Plaque
>
> > Don McEwan wrote:
> > >
> > > I am uploading three photos I took this summer.
> > > They show South Baffin Street, leading from Ferry Road.
> > > This is where I remember a Plaque which said (roughly) 'This marks the
> > > location of the cottage in which Mary Shelley, Author of 'Frankenstein',
> > > stayed.'
> > > Whether it was here she actually WROTE the book, I don't know.
> > >
> > > It appears that the original Plaque has been removed - by Dundee City
> > > Council? - and a WOODEN replacement installed.
> > > It looked to me as if there had been a small strip plate fixed under the
> > > symbolic 'Tower' - possibly with an explanation.
> > > I DON'T think this is the actual Plaque which I remember.
> > > .................................................................
> >
> > You may be able to see a date in the top left corner of Photo 3 - I
> > haven't quite got it cleaarly in the photo and I didn't make a note at
> > the time.  But it is something like 1888 / 1889 / 1898.
> > Any suggestions about the holes which look like 'Gun Loops' - I doubt
> > this is part of the original Dundee City Wall - but you never know.
> > If they are artificial / decorative Victorian architectural items - WHY?
> > Admittedly they face invaders from the River!
> >
> > Overseas subscribers may be interested in the buildigs on either side of
> > Baffin Street (named because of the whaling history?).
> > They look like typical turn of the century tenement houses, four storeys
> > with a 'close' entrance from the pavement (USay 'sidewalk!).
> > It appears ther are two windows on one side of a close and one one the
> > other side.  This is a common layout, I think, where one side of the
> > close had a larger house than the other, say two bwdrooms and one
> > bedroom.
> >
> > South Baffin Street has clearly been closed off from Ferry Road, which
> > is a very busy main artery road from the City Centre to Broughty Ferry,
> > Monifieth etc.
> > You may be able to see modern housing at the top of the stairs, this
> > whole area along and behind Ferry Road has been demolished and rebuilt.
> >
> > I hope this is of interest to some?
> >
> > --
> > Don McEwan
> > Lothian
> > SCOTLAND
> >
> .................................................................

For the slower members (!) I should have explanitated that by 'uploaded'
I meant that I was putting the photos on the e-group Web Site - in the
'Vault' area.

It's his age, you know.  :o)

Mr 'ornfoot', I mean.

--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Nathan C ornfoot wrote:
>
> Don,
> My original query was "why was it moved from Castle St.", but now it is "why
> was it in Castle St. in the first place."  Incidentally didn't get any
> pictures.
> Nat.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don McEwan <don.mcewan@...>
> To: <dundee-history@egroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:45 PM
> Subject: [dundee-history] Re: [] Mary Shelley Plaque
>
> > Don McEwan wrote:
> > >
> > > I am uploading three photos I took this summer.
> > > They show South Baffin Street, leading from Ferry Road.
> > > This is where I remember a Plaque which said (roughly) 'This marks the
> > > location of the cottage in which Mary Shelley, Author of 'Frankenstein',
> > > stayed.'
> > > Whether it was here she actually WROTE the book, I don't know.
> > >
> > > It appears that the original Plaque has been removed - by Dundee City
> > > Council? - and a WOODEN replacement installed.
> > > It looked to me as if there had been a small strip plate fixed under the
> > > symbolic 'Tower' - possibly with an explanation.
> > > I DON'T think this is the actual Plaque which I remember.
> > > .................................................................
> >
SNIP

If you remember, I disagreed with your original statement that a Plaque
about Mary Shelley had EVER been in Castle Street.!!

Now I HAVE  been wrong before, so perhaps there was another plaque about
her there, but remember someone else recalled a plaque in Castle St for
someone else.!

So, in the interests of historical accuracy, all *I* know is there was a
plaque, as described, on the wall of the stair in South Baffin Street in
the 1940s.

--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Good Morning. I'm interested in finding out if a few of the places that
my ancestors lived were close to each other. They seemed to have moved
quite a bit (even went to Ireland at one point) eventually ending up in
Glasgow and I quess I just would like to know a little about these
areas. I'm still trying to figure out why they moved as often as it
seems they did. One address I have is Cathrines Land, St. Salavador
Street in Dundee (1873) and the other is 89 Seagate (1867) also Dundee.
I was helped in the past by some very nice people and appreciate the
input.

Anyone feeling nostalgic for Dundee - I have just come across what looks
like a new(ish) Chat page at:
http://www.dcthomson.co.uk/New_FDAP/
On-line, of course, which is a bit expensive for us UK folk!

There have been Harris and Morgan FP threads as of today.

Just thought I would mention it as I am rarely at DCThomson's site.

--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

At 04:53  5/08/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Good Morning. I'm interested in finding out if a few of the places that
>my ancestors lived were close to each other.

G'Day to all - Both St Salvators Close, and the Seagate are at the centre of
Dundee , and the High Street..

  I can only spot St Salvators Close - not street, which a long time ago ran
north from the Overgate, just  three streets to the west of Reform street. It
looks as though it ran into the back of the block on Bank St at one time
occupied by the old Kinnaird Cinema, opposite the People's Journal office in
Bank St.

The Seagate ran from the east end of the High St, , towards the east, on the
river side of Murraygate.
Can't guess how far up your number would have been. In the forties it became a
mix of warehouses, and old tenement blocks.

The Tay Valley Family History Society published many street maps some yearts
ago, after careful work by one of their members, Bill Dow. The Historian #47
covers this area.

Jim R   Eumundi, Qld., Oz

The other option is St. Salvador STREET in the Maxwelltown area.  I've
been looking through my collection of maps but can't find one which
shows this part of Dundee in enough detail to see if there was a
Catherine's Land there.

Jim mentions Bill Dow's series of maps in the TVFHS journals.  His map
in issue 51 just stops short of showing this area and as yet I haven't
identified the map used.  Any ideas?

Grant Buttars

Thank you for your reply. Maxwelltown sounds good to me. That's where my
gg-grandfather's residence was(1867) His bride lived at Seagate and in 1873
they lived on St. Salvador St. Cathrines Land. I should try and get hold of
an old map to get the general picture. Sounds like they were kind of in the
same area.

At 08:43  8/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Thank you for your reply. Maxwelltown sounds good to me. That's where my
>gg-grandfather's residence was(1867)

Yes, I think that Grant Buttars is closer to the mark than I was, with St
Salvator's Close.

Maxwelltown is an area up at the top of the Hilltown, on the right hand side
going up, near the  top.
There is a St Salvator's Church,and a few local streets named after the
children of one of the
Maxwell from Tealing who originally owned the land. No sign of a Catherine St
or Land on my map,
which I got from the Map Library of the National Library in Edinburgh. For
Grant's interest it is
from the OS 1st edn 25" County Series, FORFARSHIRE Sheet LIV.5 (1871) . Only
cost me a few bob for a photo copy a year or two ago. This covers Smithfield,
Maxwelltown, and Chapel Shade Districts. Oh, and Butterburn over to the NE of
the map. -the Fifth and Sixth Wards - or in street terms from the junction of
Mains Rd and Dens Rd, down to Bell St and DHS.on Euclid Crescent.

The top end of ther TV FHS maps finishes at about Ann St, only half way up the
Hilltown!

Cheers to all        Jim R   Eumundi, Qld., Oz.

Hi friends
When I was  young (very very young) we first stayed in a ground floor two
roomed, ootside toilet hoose in St Salvador Street  which ran to the south
side of Caldrum Street and Glamis Street. At the other end of Caldrum
Street and Glamis Street was Main Street which ran to the Tap o' the Hill
(Hilltown).
Oor hoose was next door to a Pub which I cannot remember the name of. I
remember that most nights before bed time my entertainment was to watch
mice appear and disappear from behind the fireplace. I also remember going
to the "Steemie" in Caldrum Street with my mother to wash the clothes, get
a bath and then hurl the clathes hame in an auld pram.

We didnt last long there before we got a detached house ( pre fab) LOL in
Alloway Place. This was heaven. Bathroom gairden and three rooms.
At this time my father was a Dispenser with Boots the Chemist in Wellgate.

When I joined the Polis my first Beat was Caldrum Street and then Maryfield
on which Catherine Street was. This was off Dura Street at Eliza Street.

Hope this is of some interest
Scotty
Scott M. Wilson FSA Scot.
10 Hillside Drive
DUNDEE,  "City of Discovery"
DD2 1QW
Scotland

Home Tel. (01382) 645998
Mobile. 0402659560

E.Mail. scott.wilson@...
WebSite. http://www.sol.co.uk/s/scott.wilson

ICQ #  2906829

Member of the International Police Association




"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning.
We will remember them"
                                                                            
                   

<7m3a1m$70j-@egroups.com> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dundee-history/?start=299
> In 1564 Mary Queen of Scots gave the lands and orchards of the former
> Greyfriars Monastery to Dundee for it's new burial ground. This was
> finally closed for burials in 1867. it lies just outside the D C
> Thomson and Post Office building, and used to back on to Barrack St
and
> the old Kinnaird Cinema
> long since gone I have no doubt !!
>
> "Howff" is an old Scots word for a meeting place - in this case not
for
> spirits , but for the Nine Dundee Trades who used to meet in the
> Greyfriars
> Church, before it was knocked down in the Reformation. They paid the
> Council five pounds twelve shillings per annum for this privilege !!
> They used to meet at a place called " the Stone".
>
> Some years ago , Dundee Art Galleries & Museums published a little
> booklet by Nancy Davey, updating a 1977 version. It is called "The
> Howff - A Guide to an Old Graveyard"    ISBN 0 900344 56 3  .
>
> some years ago the City of Dundee Archives started to form a card
index
> system to update the burial records, in partnership with the Tay
Valley
> FHS.
> I wonder if Jerry Wright could tell us what stage this is now at, and
> how best those of us who pursue the dead, might get details of burials
> . Would it be best to approach the Archives, or ask for help from
> volunteers at the TV FHS ?
>
> Jim R   Eumundi Qld., Oz.
>
> Dear Jim and all other board members: I have a copy of the MI's for
the  Howff if anyone needs a look-up. The Book is Pre 1855. Jani
>
>
>
>

I came across this interesting address while flicking through the 1829
directory for Dundee, in the Lochee section.  I've never come across it
before.  Has anyone got any ideas where it was and perhaps its origins.

Grant Buttars
(Dundee Scotland)
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~gbuttars/

"Grant E. L. Buttars" wrote:
>
> I came across this interesting address while flicking through the 1829
> directory for Dundee, in the Lochee section.  I've never come across it
> before.  Has anyone got any ideas where it was and perhaps its origins.
>
> Grant Buttars
> (Dundee Scotland)
> http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~gbuttars/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, Grant -
I doubt if I will be able to help, but could you give just a little more
information?
What was the full entry?
Any suggestions of where in Lochee - like adjoining addresses, people's
names etc.?

Sounds like a typical old name, like Gallows Knowe, which is found all
over the country, and can be - or should I say often is - assumed to be
the site of hangings.  The assumption here would be the site of witch
burning(s), but might be the suspected location of a witch's home.
Having successfully stated the obvious - without in any way answering
your question (!) I will add an extract below from:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Life and Times of Dundee"

Life after the Reformation

One admirable aim of the reformers was the achievement of an orderly,
well-behaved society and accordingly, private morals came under closer
Scrutiny than had been usual in the past. The numbers of adulterers and
fornicators seemed to increase sharply and indeed, Dundee needed a new
prison especially for those who committed this ‘horrid crime’. Very
Conveniently this was situated at the east end of the East Kirk, just
above the meeting-place of the kirk session.
To modem eyes, one of the more horrific aspects of religious life in
Europe from the late sixteenth to the early eighteenth centuries was the
persecution of men and women - mostly women - believed to be witches. to
judge from the written records, Dundee does not seem to have been very
busy in this, though witches were certainly put to death there. There is
a report that Regent Moray had ‘a company of witches’ burned on his
visit to the town in 1569 and in November 1669 the Privy Council
commissioned John Tarbet, the Provost, the Dean of Guild and several
gentlemen of Angus to try Grissell Jaffray for the ‘horrid cryme of
witchcraft’. She was subsequently found guilty and sentenced to death.
There is one earlier proof of the town’s involvement in this type of
persecution. The Treasurer’s accounts of 1590/91 give the detailed cost
of having a witch put to death, the total coming to £5. 16s.2d Scots.
The cost of the rope, payment to the hangman, creelfulls of coal, ‘twa
tar barrels’ and the carriage to the Playfield of everything needed are
in-cluded. There the burning of the ‘wiche’, whose name is not given,
would be a public spectacle, perhaps enjoyed somewhat gruesomely by at
least some of the spectators as much as the plays and processions
normally enacted there before strict Calvinism gained control.
Dundee and Dundonians were in the mainstream of religious life during
these stirring changes in the sixteenth century. What happened in the
town reflected national and international events. Both spiritual and
economic life were affected, initially very disruptively, but by the end
of the century the town had overcome the worst material effects and was
as stable spiritually as could be expected during these turbulent years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have you already searched old maps - the laborious way! ?


Hope this is of some general interest.

I note there has been no response to my newspaper article about the
Dundee Archives - other than directly from Jim in Oz.  Was no-one else
interested?

What about the Mary Shelley plaque - any information from Dundee council
- did they move the original because of vandalism?
And whit aboot ma other photies in the 'Vault' at :
http://www.egroups.com/group/dundee-history
- a restrained round of applause always encourages!  :o)


--
Don McEwan
Lothian
SCOTLAND

Jings, Crivvens & Help Ma Boab.!
<mailto:don.mcewan@...>

Hello Everyone.

I've just had a look at the photos in The Vault on the dundee-history web
pages at egroups.  They are excellent, and it's spurred me on to look out
some of my photos of Dundee and beg/borrow a scanner and get them on too.

The reason for this email, however, is to query whether the one entitled
"Princes Street" is actually that street.

I may be wrong, but it looks like somewhere nearby.

The photo looks east, along Arbroath Road, and the junction in the bottom
right is Arbroath Road going east (to the top of the photo); Princes Street
going south (right); Albert Street going north. and Victoria Street going
west.

The photo appears to have been taken from a second or third floor window of
a tenement, at about 19 or 21 Princes St.  This building is still standing,
though derelict.

The tram lines running left to right connected the Maryfield depot on Forfar
Road, behind the Morgan Academy with the city centre (via Princes Street on
the right).  The lines running along Arbroath Road ran east, how far I don't
know, as I was born in the post-tram era!

The tenement building on the far right in still very much the same today,
and is fully occupied.  Behind the parked car is Robertson Street (I think),
which leads down to Lilybank Road and Broughty Ferry Road (where my father
had the Anchor Bar).

The buildings next, on the right, have now gone.

The picture has a sort of white triangle visible along Arbroath Road's
righthand side.  This marks the top of Lilybank Road, and turning down here
one would have seen Glebelands School.  The tenements on both sides of
Lilybank Road and those on Arbroath Road were demolished in 1969 - 1971
while I attended Glebelands.  A welcome diversion from classes!.  One of the
roof ventilators of the school can just be seen as the 'pagoda-shaped' item
on the roofline of the building hiding the view of the school.

In the distance, Arbroath Road curves to the left.  On the right were Eden
Street and North Baffin Street, with the cinema at the bottom (demolished
1968) - was it called The Regal?, and the steps down to South Bafffin
Street.

Out of sight on the left side of Arbroath Road on the curve were Baxter Park
Church (demolished in the early 1980s) and then Baxter Park.

Almost facing Lilybank Road on the south side of Arbroath Road, was Morgan
Street on the left side.  This had jute mills on both corners with Arbroath
Road.

Trying to put a date on the picture?  I really don't know, but there are
some clues:  The buildings between Lilybank Road and Robertson street were
already replaced by later tenements by the time I came to know this area, so
I guess in the 1930s?

Notably although there are overhead electricity wires for the trams on the
Albert Street line, there appear to be none running along Arbroath Road.

Also, the policemen are wearing the pointed helmets of the style still used
in England, before the Scottish forces switched to the flat-topped caps.

Well, that's as much as I can drag out of one photo!  Please add/correct as
you see fit.

Best Regards

Ken Anton

Hi all

I am the culprit of the Princes Street photo. A friend bought a pile of old
negatives at the Forfar Market one day and had some developed - including
that one. It is indeed arbroath road, and must be my fault for labeling it
Princes Street - my main interest was the fact that the research centre of
Tay Valley FHS is just down the road [on Princes Street!!!!] - so yes Ken -
you are indeed correct, Arbroath Road, just me labeling the thing wrongly!

Oh, date, we put it at early to mid 1920's fromt he other negatives in the
pile.

Andrew

---------------------------------------------------------
A Ramsay Nicoll
Email  A.Nicoll@...     ICQ  20024093
WWW: www.dundee.ac.uk/~anicoll/

Ken,

Yes I agree, though I think you meant that it was taken from the window of a
flat in Victoria Street and I would estimate a lower number than you think.
This corner tenement was built, I have been told, by the Bank of Scotland
(formerly the British Linen Bank) and included a two storey flat for the
manager on the corner above the bank.  It is now in a sad state of repair.
It was scheduled for demolition for the eastern part of the ring road which
at one time was to be built but this is not now going ahead.

The first street on the right after the crossroads is Robertson Street and
if I remember correctly, the industrial looking buildings there were some
type of cleaners.  I don't remember it in its entirity but the sign remained
for many years on what was left of its perimeter walls after demolition.  I
think it may have said Munro??

Baxter Park church survived until last year, when it was demolished to build
a new block of flats.  I know a number of locals who were horrified that
this happened and that it wasn't converted into flats itself instead.

I remember Glebelands being extended and renovated in the 1970s.  I wasn't
at that school but many friends were.  Classes were moved temporarily down
to a former RC primary in Lilybank Road, named ???.  Quite a strange looking
building it had a perimeter fence around the roof and I think there may have
been a play area up there.  It was demolished once Glebelands returned to
its own site.

As to the 'missing' tram cables in Arbroath Road, I'm sure that line was
discontinued well before the rest of the tram network.  There is an
excellent video out on Dundee Trams which may mention this.

Who uploaded this one?  I'd be quite intrigued to find out its source.

Grant Buttars
(Dundee Scotland)
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~gbuttars/
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Anton <ken@...>
To: <dundee-history@egroups.com>
Sent: 12 August 1999 13:32
Subject: [dundee-history] Photo of "Princes Street"


> Hello Everyone.
>
> I've just had a look at the photos in The Vault on the dundee-history web
> pages at egroups.  They are excellent, and it's spurred me on to look out
> some of my photos of Dundee and beg/borrow a scanner and get them on too.
>
> The reason for this email, however, is to query whether the one entitled
> "Princes Street" is actually that street.
>
> I may be wrong, but it looks like somewhere nearby.
>
> The photo looks east, along Arbroath Road, and the junction in the bottom
> right is Arbroath Road going east (to the top of the photo); Princes
Street
> going south (right); Albert Street going north. and Victoria Street going
> west.
>
> The photo appears to have been taken from a second or third floor window
of
> a tenement, at about 19 or 21 Princes St.  This building is still
standing,
> though derelict.
>
> The tram lines running left to right connected the Maryfield depot on
Forfar
> Road, behind the Morgan Academy with the city centre (via Princes Street
on
> the right).  The lines running along Arbroath Road ran east, how far I
don't
> know, as I was born in the post-tram era!
>
> The tenement building on the far right in still very much the same today,
> and is fully occupied.  Behind the parked car is Robertson Street (I
think),
> which leads down to Lilybank Road and Broughty Ferry Road (where my father
> had the Anchor Bar).
>
> The buildings next, on the right, have now gone.
>
> The picture has a sort of white triangle visible along Arbroath Road's
> righthand side.  This marks the top of Lilybank Road, and turning down
here
> one would have seen Glebelands School.  The tenements on both sides of
> Lilybank Road and those on Arbroath Road were demolished in 1969 - 1971
> while I attended Glebelands.  A welcome diversion from classes!.  One of
the
> roof ventilators of the school can just be seen as the 'pagoda-shaped'
item
> on the roofline of the building hiding the view of the school.
>
> In the distance, Arbroath Road curves to the left.  On the right were Eden
> Street and North Baffin Street, with the cinema at the bottom (demolished
> 1968) - was it called The Regal?, and the steps down to South Bafffin
> Street.
>
> Out of sight on the left side of Arbroath Road on the curve were Baxter
Park
> Church (demolished in the early 1980s) and then Baxter Park.
>
> Almost facing Lilybank Road on the south side of Arbroath Road, was Morgan
> Street on the left side.  This had jute mills on both corners with
Arbroath
> Road.
>
> Trying to put a date on the picture?  I really don't know, but there are
> some clues:  The buildings between Lilybank Road and Robertson street were
> already replaced by later tenements by the time I came to know this area,
so
> I guess in the 1930s?
>
> Notably although there are overhead electricity wires for the trams on the
> Albert Street line, there appear to be none running along Arbroath Road.
>
> Also, the policemen are wearing the pointed helmets of the style still
used
> in England, before the Scottish forces switched to the flat-topped caps.
>
> Well, that's as much as I can drag out of one photo!  Please add/correct
as
> you see fit.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Ken Anton
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated!  If you're
> satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate
> of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/678
>
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/dundee-history
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>

Oh Andrew, be truthful you were just trying to keep us on our toes ;) Love
all the photos in the Vault. Cheers Jani

Thanks Andrew and Grant!

Yes, Grant, I really meant that the photo was taken from the window at
Victoria Street !!!

The tenement on the corner was indeed above the bank, and next was the
tenements in Victoria Street.  Number 19 was above a gents' hairdresser, and
a girl in my class at Glebelands lived there.

I drove past that way last night and confirmed the scene, including the
'ventilator' on the roof of Glebelands.

I also remember the RC primary school, St. ???  (can't remember the name
either).  I left Glebelands in 1971, a couple of years before the
refurbishment, and remember that my younger brother spent a year at St. X.

Thanks, Andrew, for putting the photo in the Vault!


Best Regards

Ken Anton

I am told that a major upgrade is planned to be put in place this Sunday
15th,and that the
entire system will be shut down from 9.00 am to 6 pm, Pacific Time .

I leave you all to work out your own timing implications !! Beyond my
ageing skills to do so
with any certainty !!

Regards    Jim R

-----Original Message-----
From: Caroline Gurney [mailto:cmgurney@...]
Sent: 15 July 1999 00:54
To: ANGUS-L@...
Subject: Re: Broughty Ferry

Anyone with Broughty Ferry ancestors will find this virtual tour very
interesting:

http://www.norcol.ac.uk/BEd/ferryhist/tour/virtualtour.html

There are many pictures of the town & the fisherfolk in the 19th century.

The information on the Bell Rock Square area of Broughty Ferry refers to an
old cemetery where there are "several interesting graves erected in memory
of local people, and recalling the once popular fishing family names of
Knight, Lorimer, Webster, Gall and Ferrier."

As Webster & Gall are among my Broughty Ferry fishermen's names, I found
this very exciting!

Caroline Gurney
Portsmouth, Hampshire, UK
cmgurney@...

______________________________