Just a reminder about the Opening of the Save the Cerberus Exhibition...

The Exhibition will feature about 18 new original artworks on various aspects of
Cerberus by leading contemporary Australian artists, alongside 19th Century
paintings, photographs, two models of the ship & artifacts from the ship,
including a huge 10 inch shell as fired by her main armament.

The Grand Opening kicks off at 6.30 pm on Wednesday 7th October at Pivotal
Galleries 442 Bridge Rd Richmond Melbourne Victoria & will feature members of
the Victorian Navy in full 19th Century Naval rig & many VIP Guests of Honour.
Refreshments will be available.

Please come along & express your support for this nationally & internationally
important heritage listed Melbourne icon.

Links below have further details:

www.cerberus.com.au/index.html

www.pivotalgalleries.com/Base_Page.htm

groups.yahoo.com/group/RoyalNavy_from_1789/

You may know of the 1868 Ironclad Monitor HMVS Cerberus, currently a breakwater
off Black Rock near Melbourne, that was the genesis of the design of most major
battleships 1870-1906 & of the ongoing campaign to save, & eventually to
restore, this unique piece of Australian, & world, maritime heritage.

Time is now very much running out for Cerberus in that she needs outside bracing
to avoid a major collapse that will end all chance of saving her. As part of
effort to save her Pivotal Galleries of Bridge Rd Richmond, in association with
Friends of the Cerberus, is putting on a special Save the Cerberus Art
Exhibition, 7-18 October 2009.

The Exhibition will include many new original artworks on aspects of Cerberus by
leading contemporary Australian Artists, including members of The Australian
Society of Marine Artists. A proportion of all sales will go to the Save the
Cerberus campaign. Those who purchase a painting will also get a special
certificate & complimentary membership of the 'Victorian Navy'. Paintings will
be available for purchase via the Pivotal Website and membership of the
'Victorian Navy' is open to everyone, including those outside Australia.

The exhibition will also feature 19th Century paintings of Cerberus,
photographs, a large model of the ship & artifacts from Cerberus, including a
huge 10 inch shell. The Grand Opening at 6.30pm on the 7th October 2009 will
include several VIP Guests & volunteers from the 'Victorian Navy' in full 19th
Century Naval rig.

Pivotal Galleries & Friends of the Cerberus would like to invite you & your
members to come along & support this worthy maritime charity. This is an
opportunity for those interested in naval & maritime history to really get
behind the campaign to save a unique piece of Australian maritime heritage.

Links below contain further details.
Tamsin Davidson
Manager Pivotal Galleries

http://www.cerberus.com.au/index.html

http://www.pivotalgalleries.com/Base_Page.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RoyalNavy_from_1789/

Ummmmm....I'm here Tom, just waiting for the next Smith book with baited fish
breath!
Biki

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, cepip99 <cepip99@...> wrote:


From: cepip99 <cepip99@...>
Subject: [dudleypope] Re: What's in a name?
To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 12:14 PM









Hi Tom- Great point well taken. The more I think about this the more convinced I
believe it was the publisher's error rather than Pope's. Reason the same
manuscript would have been sent to both publisher's.

Look forward to reading more about Sir Sidney Smith. He is indeed a neglected
hero of the time and British naval history.

Pip

--- In dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com, Tom Grundner <tmg@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2009, at 6:31 PM, cepip99 wrote:
>
> > My apologies to all for the typing errors. I had dictated a draft,
> > was proofing and hit the send button to soon.
> >
> > Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you're correct. While it may work
> > in eye rhyme and American, it clearly doesn't work in any other
> > language.
> >
> > My other theory (juast as wild) It has something to do with Princess
> > Diana.
> >
> > Biki- Your comments are right on. Sadly, it's not one of the better
> > Ramage novels.
> >
> > Any other ideas?
>
> Yeah... it might very well be that he just made a mistake. It
> might be similar to his naming Southwick "Henry" in one place (Ramage
> - pg 256) and "Edward" elsewhere (Ramage's Signal - pg 191).
>
> Frankly, I don't know how he did as well as he did. I recently
> finished the third novel in my Sidney Smith series (The Temple -
> coming out next week, by the way), and was surprised at the number of
> times I had to do a search on the first two books to see what I called
> someone or something. I can't imagine what it must be like to keep 18
> books straight.
>
>
> Tom Grundner
> Fireship Press
> www.FireshipPress. com
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well.......the part where his "swimsuit" is removed is kind of fun!

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, cepip99 <cepip99@...> wrote:


From: cepip99 <cepip99@...>
Subject: [dudleypope] Re: What's in a name?
To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 7:31 PM








My apologies to all for the typing errors. I had dictated a draft, was proofing
and hit the send button to soon.

Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you're correct. While it may work in eye
rhyme and American, it clearly doesn't work in any other language.

My other theory (juast as wild) It has something to do with Princess Diana.

Biki- Your comments are right on. Sadly, it's not one of the better Ramage
novels.

Any other ideas?

Pip

--- In dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com, "dandp" <dandp@...> wrote:
>
> With respect, Pip, if Dudley Pope or his printers made as many mistakes in the
text as you did in your message, it is hardly surprising that 'Diana' was
transformed into 'Sarah' (or 'share' or 'Sara' according to you)!!
>
> Pip's suggestion about 'Gianna' (not 'Giana') being misheard as 'Diana' is a
good one, but I am not sure that it works other than in print as an eye-rhyme.
The normal English pronounciation of the latter is 'Dye-ANNA' (or possibly
'Dye-ARNA' in more effected circles), which scarcely rhymes with any normal
pronounciation of 'Gianna' (commonly 'Jee-AH-na' in England etc but 'Jee-ONNA'
is, I believe, the accepted Italian way). I'm sure Ramage and the others would
have referred to and addressed Gianna in Italian style - but I've never heard of
a rhyming girl's name 'Dee-ONNA'.
>
> Quite a conundrum; if I still smoked a pipe, I think I would be on the second
one by now!
>
> Puffer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Biki Cat
> To: dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [dudleypope] Re: Question
>
>
>
>
>
> My beef with that part of the story is LACK-OF-DETAIL! !!
> He is swimming towards the ship containing prisoners and then he's back aboard
the ship and he's been knocked out.
> Why couldn't Pope write about "how" this happened instead of skipping ahead?
> I mean, that is why he wrote the stories, for the action right? That book
seems that he got bored and just wanted it to end.
> I wish his editor had advised him better with that part.
> I'm fairly sure both of my books say Sarah.
>
> Biki
>
> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, cepip99 <cepip99@... > wrote:
>
> From: cepip99 <cepip99@... >
> Subject: [dudleypope] Re: Question
> To: dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 8:53 AM
>
> Hi Ken-Your absolutely correct. I have the Avon edition as well. It has always
been my belief that the First American edition was published by Avon. The name
was indeed Diana. In the next volume rmage's Devil, the name was changed to
share for no
> obvious reason. The first British edition of Ramage and the Renegades, the
name is Sarah. I've always believed Ramage and the Renegades was actually
published first in the United States by Avon and something happened which caused
them to change the name. I believe the main Diana was removed from the plates
and Sara inserted; but, no other editorial changes were made between the two
editions to the best of my knowledge.
>
> If you read the Avon version and the British version of Ramage and the
Renegades, it is very clear that the text was originally written for her name to
be Diana not Sarah. The following quote is from the Alison Press Secker and
Warburg First British Edition 1981 page 232-233
>
> "His right hand was plucking at the blanket and trying to reach across to his
left arm. Before she could move, Rossi had leaned over and with surprising
diplomats put the hand back under the blanket. Her lips moved and lost them down
and listened.
>
> "I think he wants you ma'am if your name is Sarah."
>
> She felt a surge of pleasure and realized that this Italian seamen had
probably misheard a murmered 'Giana" as Sarah. He was thinking of the Marchessa"
>
> This paragraph does not work with Sarah but works beautifully with Diana.
Something caused the change to Sarah from the original draft in which the
heroine was obviously Diana.
>
> At one time, there were someone on this website and I'm embarrassed to say I
cannot remember his name, who had a website about and and was also in contact
with Pope's Daughter. I had always intended to contact him about this issue but
never did.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, a hardback first edition of Ramage and the
Renegades was never published in the United States until the McBooks Press
edition which uses Sarah.
>
> Does anyone out there have any observations or information about this
dichotomy? Perhaps if we all work together sharing what we know; we can figure
out what happened.
>
> Pip
>
> Does anyone else out there know anything about this change and why it
occurred? Thanks for motivating to finally get my act together and pursue this
interesting question.
>
> -- In dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com, "Ken Maliphant" <k-maliphant@ ...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.
> >
> > In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
> > rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.
> >
> >
> >
> > The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
> > honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?
> >
> >
> >
> > There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???
> >
> >
> >
> > Ken Maliphant
> >
> > 0208 663 0990
> >
> > 07831 364075
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Tom- Great point well taken. The more I think about this the more convinced I
believe it was the publisher's error rather than Pope's. Reason the same
manuscript would have been sent to both publisher's.

Look forward to reading more about Sir Sidney Smith. He is indeed a neglected
hero of the time and British naval history.

Pip


--- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, Tom Grundner <tmg@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2009, at 6:31 PM, cepip99 wrote:
>
> > My apologies to all for the typing errors. I had dictated a draft,
> > was proofing and hit the send button to soon.
> >
> > Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you're correct. While it may work
> > in eye rhyme and American, it clearly doesn't work in any other
> > language.
> >
> > My other theory (juast as wild) It has something to do with Princess
> > Diana.
> >
> > Biki- Your comments are right on. Sadly, it's not one of the better
> > Ramage novels.
> >
> > Any other ideas?
>
>     Yeah... it might very well be that he just made a mistake.  It
> might be similar to his naming Southwick "Henry" in one place (Ramage
> - pg 256) and  "Edward" elsewhere (Ramage's Signal - pg 191).
>
>     Frankly, I don't know how he did as well as he did.  I recently
> finished the third novel in my Sidney Smith series (The Temple -
> coming out next week, by the way), and was surprised at the number of
> times I had to do a search on the first two books to see what I called
> someone or something.  I can't imagine what it must be like to keep 18
> books straight.
>
>
> Tom Grundner
> Fireship Press
> www.FireshipPress.com
>

On Jun 30, 2009, at 6:31 PM, cepip99 wrote:

> My apologies to all for the typing errors. I had dictated a draft,
> was proofing and hit the send button to soon.
>
> Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you're correct. While it may work
> in eye rhyme and American, it clearly doesn't work in any other
> language.
>
> My other theory (juast as wild) It has something to do with Princess
> Diana.
>
> Biki- Your comments are right on. Sadly, it's not one of the better
> Ramage novels.
>
> Any other ideas?

     Yeah... it might very well be that he just made a mistake.  It
might be similar to his naming Southwick "Henry" in one place (Ramage
- pg 256) and  "Edward" elsewhere (Ramage's Signal - pg 191).

     Frankly, I don't know how he did as well as he did.  I recently
finished the third novel in my Sidney Smith series (The Temple -
coming out next week, by the way), and was surprised at the number of
times I had to do a search on the first two books to see what I called
someone or something.  I can't imagine what it must be like to keep 18
books straight.


Tom Grundner
Fireship Press
www.FireshipPress.com

Been a bit quiet here for awhile. So I hadn't noticed that the group passed its
10 year anniversary.
Jim
(Owner)

My apologies to all for the typing errors. I had dictated a draft, was proofing
and hit the send button to soon.

Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you're correct. While it may work in eye
rhyme and American, it clearly doesn't work in any other language.

My other theory (juast as wild) It has something to do with Princess Diana.

Biki- Your comments are right on. Sadly, it's not one of the better Ramage
novels.

Any other ideas?

Pip


--- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, "dandp" <dandp@...> wrote:
>
> With respect, Pip, if Dudley Pope or his printers made as many mistakes in the
text as you did in your message, it is hardly surprising that 'Diana' was
transformed into 'Sarah' (or 'share' or 'Sara' according to you)!!
>
> Pip's suggestion about 'Gianna' (not 'Giana') being misheard as 'Diana' is a
good one, but I am not sure that it works other than in print as an eye-rhyme.  
The normal English pronounciation of the latter is 'Dye-ANNA' (or possibly
'Dye-ARNA' in more effected circles), which scarcely rhymes with any normal
pronounciation of 'Gianna' (commonly 'Jee-AH-na' in England etc but 'Jee-ONNA'
is, I believe, the accepted Italian way).   I'm sure Ramage and the others would
have referred to and addressed Gianna in Italian style - but I've never heard of
a rhyming girl's name 'Dee-ONNA'.
>
> Quite a conundrum; if I still smoked a pipe, I think I would be on the second
one by now!
>
> Puffer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Biki Cat
>   To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:58 PM
>   Subject: Re: [dudleypope] Re: Question
>
>
>
>
>
>   My beef with that part of the story is LACK-OF-DETAIL!!!
>   He is swimming towards the ship containing prisoners and then he's back
aboard the ship and he's been knocked out.
>   Why couldn't Pope write about "how" this happened instead of skipping ahead?
>   I mean, that is why he wrote the stories, for the action right?  That book
seems that he got bored and just wanted it to end.
>   I wish his editor had advised him better with that part.
>   I'm fairly sure both of my books say Sarah.
>
>   Biki
>
>   --- On Tue, 6/30/09, cepip99 <cepip99@...> wrote:
>
>   From: cepip99 <cepip99@...>
>   Subject: [dudleypope] Re: Question
>   To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
>   Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 8:53 AM
>
>   Hi Ken-Your absolutely correct. I have the Avon edition as well. It has
always been my belief that the First American edition was published by Avon. The
name was indeed Diana. In the next volume rmage's Devil, the name was changed to
share for no
>   obvious reason. The first British edition of Ramage and the Renegades, the
name is Sarah. I've always believed Ramage and the Renegades was actually
published first in the United States by Avon and something happened which caused
them to change the name. I believe the main Diana was removed from the plates
and Sara inserted; but, no other editorial changes were made between the two
editions to the best of my knowledge.
>
>   If you read the Avon version and the British version of Ramage and the
Renegades, it is very clear that the text was originally written for her name to
be Diana not Sarah. The following quote is from the Alison Press Secker and
Warburg First British Edition 1981 page 232-233
>
>   "His right hand was plucking at the blanket and trying to reach across to
his left arm. Before she could move, Rossi had leaned over and with surprising
diplomats put the hand back under the blanket. Her lips moved and lost them down
and listened.
>
>   "I think he wants you ma'am if your name is Sarah."
>
>   She felt a surge of pleasure and realized that this Italian seamen had
probably misheard a murmered 'Giana" as Sarah. He was thinking of the Marchessa"
>
>   This paragraph does not work with Sarah but works beautifully with Diana.
Something caused the change to Sarah from the original draft in which the
heroine was obviously Diana.
>
>   At one time, there were someone on this website and I'm embarrassed to say I
cannot remember his name, who had a website about and and was also in contact
with Pope's Daughter. I had always intended to contact him about this issue but
never did.
>
>   To the best of my knowledge, a hardback first edition of Ramage and the
Renegades was never published in the United States until the McBooks Press
edition which uses Sarah.
>
>   Does anyone out there have any observations or information about this
dichotomy? Perhaps if we all work together sharing what we know; we can figure
out what happened.
>
>   Pip
>
>   Does anyone else out there know anything about this change and why it
occurred? Thanks for motivating to finally get my act together and pursue this
interesting question.
>
>   -- In dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com, "Ken Maliphant" <k-maliphant@ ...> wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.
>   >
>   > In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
>   > rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
>   > honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Ken Maliphant
>   >
>   > 0208 663 0990
>   >
>   > 07831 364075
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, "dandp" <dandp@...> wrote:
>
> With respect, Pip, if Dudley Pope or his printers made as many mistakes in the
text as you did in your message, it is hardly surprising that 'Diana' was
transformed into 'Sarah' (or 'share' or 'Sara' according to you)!!
>
> Pip's suggestion about 'Gianna' (not 'Giana') being misheard as 'Diana' is a
good one, but I am not sure that it works other than in print as an eye-rhyme.  
The normal English pronounciation of the latter is 'Dye-ANNA' (or possibly
'Dye-ARNA' in more effected circles), which scarcely rhymes with any normal
pronounciation of 'Gianna' (commonly 'Jee-AH-na' in England etc but 'Jee-ONNA'
is, I believe, the accepted Italian way).   I'm sure Ramage and the others would
have referred to and addressed Gianna in Italian style - but I've never heard of
a rhyming girl's name 'Dee-ONNA'.
>
> Quite a conundrum; if I still smoked a pipe, I think I would be on the second
one by now!
>
> Puffer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Biki Cat
>   To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:58 PM
>   Subject: Re: [dudleypope] Re: Question
>
>
>
>
>
>   My beef with that part of the story is LACK-OF-DETAIL!!!
>   He is swimming towards the ship containing prisoners and then he's back
aboard the ship and he's been knocked out.
>   Why couldn't Pope write about "how" this happened instead of skipping ahead?
>   I mean, that is why he wrote the stories, for the action right?  That book
seems that he got bored and just wanted it to end.
>   I wish his editor had advised him better with that part.
>   I'm fairly sure both of my books say Sarah.
>
>   Biki
>
>   --- On Tue, 6/30/09, cepip99 <cepip99@...> wrote:
>
>   From: cepip99 <cepip99@...>
>   Subject: [dudleypope] Re: Question
>   To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
>   Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 8:53 AM
>
>   Hi Ken-Your absolutely correct. I have the Avon edition as well. It has
always been my belief that the First American edition was published by Avon. The
name was indeed Diana. In the next volume rmage's Devil, the name was changed to
share for no
>   obvious reason. The first British edition of Ramage and the Renegades, the
name is Sarah. I've always believed Ramage and the Renegades was actually
published first in the United States by Avon and something happened which caused
them to change the name. I believe the main Diana was removed from the plates
and Sara inserted; but, no other editorial changes were made between the two
editions to the best of my knowledge.
>
>   If you read the Avon version and the British version of Ramage and the
Renegades, it is very clear that the text was originally written for her name to
be Diana not Sarah. The following quote is from the Alison Press Secker and
Warburg First British Edition 1981 page 232-233
>
>   "His right hand was plucking at the blanket and trying to reach across to
his left arm. Before she could move, Rossi had leaned over and with surprising
diplomats put the hand back under the blanket. Her lips moved and lost them down
and listened.
>
>   "I think he wants you ma'am if your name is Sarah."
>
>   She felt a surge of pleasure and realized that this Italian seamen had
probably misheard a murmered 'Giana" as Sarah. He was thinking of the Marchessa"
>
>   This paragraph does not work with Sarah but works beautifully with Diana.
Something caused the change to Sarah from the original draft in which the
heroine was obviously Diana.
>
>   At one time, there were someone on this website and I'm embarrassed to say I
cannot remember his name, who had a website about and and was also in contact
with Pope's Daughter. I had always intended to contact him about this issue but
never did.
>
>   To the best of my knowledge, a hardback first edition of Ramage and the
Renegades was never published in the United States until the McBooks Press
edition which uses Sarah.
>
>   Does anyone out there have any observations or information about this
dichotomy? Perhaps if we all work together sharing what we know; we can figure
out what happened.
>
>   Pip
>
>   Does anyone else out there know anything about this change and why it
occurred? Thanks for motivating to finally get my act together and pursue this
interesting question.
>
>   -- In dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com, "Ken Maliphant" <k-maliphant@ ...> wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.
>   >
>   > In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
>   > rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
>   > honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Ken Maliphant
>   >
>   > 0208 663 0990
>   >
>   > 07831 364075
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

With respect, Pip, if Dudley Pope or his printers made as many mistakes in the
text as you did in your message, it is hardly surprising that 'Diana' was
transformed into 'Sarah' (or 'share' or 'Sara' according to you)!!

Pip's suggestion about 'Gianna' (not 'Giana') being misheard as 'Diana' is a
good one, but I am not sure that it works other than in print as an eye-rhyme.  
The normal English pronounciation of the latter is 'Dye-ANNA' (or possibly
'Dye-ARNA' in more effected circles), which scarcely rhymes with any normal
pronounciation of 'Gianna' (commonly 'Jee-AH-na' in England etc but 'Jee-ONNA'
is, I believe, the accepted Italian way).   I'm sure Ramage and the others would
have referred to and addressed Gianna in Italian style - but I've never heard of
a rhyming girl's name 'Dee-ONNA'.

Quite a conundrum; if I still smoked a pipe, I think I would be on the second
one by now!

Puffer

----- Original Message -----
   From: Biki Cat
   To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:58 PM
   Subject: Re: [dudleypope] Re: Question





   My beef with that part of the story is LACK-OF-DETAIL!!!
   He is swimming towards the ship containing prisoners and then he's back aboard
the ship and he's been knocked out.
   Why couldn't Pope write about "how" this happened instead of skipping ahead?
   I mean, that is why he wrote the stories, for the action right?  That book
seems that he got bored and just wanted it to end.
   I wish his editor had advised him better with that part.
   I'm fairly sure both of my books say Sarah.

   Biki

   --- On Tue, 6/30/09, cepip99 <cepip99@...> wrote:

   From: cepip99 <cepip99@...>
   Subject: [dudleypope] Re: Question
   To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
   Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 8:53 AM

   Hi Ken-Your absolutely correct. I have the Avon edition as well. It has always
been my belief that the First American edition was published by Avon. The name
was indeed Diana. In the next volume rmage's Devil, the name was changed to
share for no
   obvious reason. The first British edition of Ramage and the Renegades, the
name is Sarah. I've always believed Ramage and the Renegades was actually
published first in the United States by Avon and something happened which caused
them to change the name. I believe the main Diana was removed from the plates
and Sara inserted; but, no other editorial changes were made between the two
editions to the best of my knowledge.

   If you read the Avon version and the British version of Ramage and the
Renegades, it is very clear that the text was originally written for her name to
be Diana not Sarah. The following quote is from the Alison Press Secker and
Warburg First British Edition 1981 page 232-233

   "His right hand was plucking at the blanket and trying to reach across to his
left arm. Before she could move, Rossi had leaned over and with surprising
diplomats put the hand back under the blanket. Her lips moved and lost them down
and listened.

   "I think he wants you ma'am if your name is Sarah."

   She felt a surge of pleasure and realized that this Italian seamen had
probably misheard a murmered 'Giana" as Sarah. He was thinking of the Marchessa"

   This paragraph does not work with Sarah but works beautifully with Diana.
Something caused the change to Sarah from the original draft in which the
heroine was obviously Diana.

   At one time, there were someone on this website and I'm embarrassed to say I
cannot remember his name, who had a website about and and was also in contact
with Pope's Daughter. I had always intended to contact him about this issue but
never did.

   To the best of my knowledge, a hardback first edition of Ramage and the
Renegades was never published in the United States until the McBooks Press
edition which uses Sarah.

   Does anyone out there have any observations or information about this
dichotomy? Perhaps if we all work together sharing what we know; we can figure
out what happened.

   Pip

   Does anyone else out there know anything about this change and why it
occurred? Thanks for motivating to finally get my act together and pursue this
interesting question.

   -- In dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com, "Ken Maliphant" <k-maliphant@ ...> wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   > I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.
   >
   > In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
   > rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.
   >
   >
   >
   > The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
   > honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?
   >
   >
   >
   > There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???
   >
   >
   >
   > Ken Maliphant
   >
   > 0208 663 0990
   >
   > 07831 364075
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My beef with that part of the story is LACK-OF-DETAIL!!!
He is swimming towards the ship containing prisoners and then he's back aboard
the ship and he's been knocked out. 
Why couldn't Pope write about "how" this happened instead of skipping ahead?
I mean, that is why he wrote the stories, for the action right?  That book seems
that he got bored and just wanted it to end. 
I wish his editor had advised him better with that part.
I'm fairly sure both of my books say Sarah.

Biki

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, cepip99 <cepip99@...> wrote:


From: cepip99 <cepip99@...>
Subject: [dudleypope] Re: Question
To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 8:53 AM








Hi Ken-Your absolutely correct. I have the Avon edition as well. It has always
been my belief that the First American edition was published by Avon. The name
was indeed Diana. In the next volume rmage's Devil, the name was changed to
share for no
obvious reason. The first British edition of Ramage and the Renegades, the name
is Sarah. I've always believed Ramage and the Renegades was actually published
first in the United States by Avon and something happened which caused them to
change the name. I believe the main Diana was removed from the plates and Sara
inserted; but, no other editorial changes were made between the two editions to
the best of my knowledge.

If you read the Avon version and the British version of Ramage and the
Renegades, it is very clear that the text was originally written for her name to
be Diana not Sarah. The following quote is from the Alison Press Secker and
Warburg First British Edition 1981 page 232-233

"His right hand was plucking at the blanket and trying to reach across to his
left arm. Before she could move, Rossi had leaned over and with surprising
diplomats put the hand back under the blanket. Her lips moved and lost them down
and listened.

"I think he wants you ma'am if your name is Sarah."

She felt a surge of pleasure and realized that this Italian seamen had probably
misheard a murmered 'Giana" as Sarah. He was thinking of the Marchessa"

This paragraph does not work with Sarah but works beautifully with Diana.
Something caused the change to Sarah from the original draft in which the
heroine was obviously Diana.

At one time, there were someone on this website and I'm embarrassed to say I
cannot remember his name, who had a website about and and was also in contact
with Pope's Daughter. I had always intended to contact him about this issue but
never did.

To the best of my knowledge, a hardback first edition of Ramage and the
Renegades was never published in the United States until the McBooks Press
edition which uses Sarah.

Does anyone out there have any observations or information about this dichotomy?
Perhaps if we all work together sharing what we know; we can figure out what
happened.

Pip

Does anyone else out there know anything about this change and why it occurred?
Thanks for motivating to finally get my act together and pursue this interesting
question.

-- In dudleypope@yahoogro ups.com, "Ken Maliphant" <k-maliphant@ ...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.
>
> In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
> rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.
>
>
>
> The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
> honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?
>
>
>
> There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???
>
>
>
> Ken Maliphant
>
> 0208 663 0990
>
> 07831 364075
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ken-Your absolutely correct. I have the Avon edition as well. It has always
been my belief that the First American edition was published by Avon. The name
was indeed Diana. In the next volume rmage's Devil, the name was changed to
share for no
  obvious reason. The first British edition of Ramage and the Renegades, the name
is Sarah. I've always believed Ramage and the Renegades was actually published
first in the United States by Avon and something happened which caused them to
change the name. I believe the main Diana was removed from the plates and Sara
inserted; but, no other editorial changes were made between the two editions to
the best of my knowledge.

If you read the Avon version and the British version of Ramage and the
Renegades, it is very clear that the text was originally written for her name to
be Diana not Sarah. The following quote is from the Alison Press Secker and
Warburg First British Edition 1981 page 232-233

"His right hand was plucking at the blanket and trying to reach across to his
left arm. Before she could move, Rossi had leaned over and with surprising
diplomats put the hand back under the blanket. Her lips moved and lost them down
and listened.

"I think he wants you ma'am if your name is Sarah."

She felt a surge of pleasure and realized that this Italian seamen had probably
misheard a murmered 'Giana" as Sarah. He was thinking of the Marchessa"

This paragraph does not work with Sarah but works beautifully with Diana.
Something caused the change to Sarah from the original draft in which the
heroine was obviously Diana.


At one time, there were someone on this website and I'm embarrassed to say I
cannot remember his name, who had a website about and and was also in contact
with Pope's Daughter. I had always intended to contact him about this issue but
never did.

To the best of my knowledge, a hardback first edition of Ramage and the
Renegades was never published in the United States until the McBooks Press
edition which uses Sarah.

Does anyone out there have any observations or information about this dichotomy?
Perhaps if we all work together sharing what we know; we can figure out what
happened.

Pip


Does anyone else out there know anything about this change and why it occurred?
Thanks for motivating to finally get my act together and pursue this interesting
question.


-- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Maliphant" <k-maliphant@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.
>
> In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
> rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.
>
>
>
> The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
> honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?
>
>
>
> There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???
>
>
>
> Ken Maliphant
>
> 0208 663 0990
>
> 07831 364075
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I will look at my books tomorrow and see what mine says.  I'm pretty sure the
book calls her Sarah.  As many times as I have read that series I have not
noticed that discrepancy.

Biki

Sent from my iPod

On Jun 29, 2009, at 3:16 AM, "Ken Maliphant" <k-maliphant@...> wrote:





I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.

In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.

The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?

There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???

Ken Maliphant

0208 663 0990

07831 364075

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've collected all the Ramage novels and find a discrepancy.

In Ramage and the Renegades (my version in a US Avon Books C 1981) Ramage
rescues Lady Diana daughter of the Marquis of Rockley and falls in love.



The next book Ramage's Devil (Fontana Collins C 1982) opens with Ramage on
honeymoon with his new wife Sarah?



There are no details of the marriage- and why the change of name???



Ken Maliphant

0208 663 0990

07831 364075





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Royal Navy 1789-1900 is now moderated & spam free
Ted

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RoyalNavy_from_1789/

Thanks for sharing Bikicat

Pip




--- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, Biki Cat <bikicat2001@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>  
> Well, the San Diego Convention is over .   We walked our feet off,
took loads of pictures and saw loads of stuff! 
>  
> The USS Midwayw was the first stop on the tour,  They have taken
anything out of it that was placed in it up to the 1990's before she
was decomissioned so that people could have the feel of what the ship
was like in the 1940's when she was launched.  Mr B and myself spent
a lot of time watching our heads and walking with our head to the
side so that we didn't hit it on anything sharp and pointy.  So much
to see aboard that ship and they have done a fabulous job of turning
her into a learning experience.  We were given private tours.
> Mr. B and I risked it all for a crazy drive to the San Diego Navy
base.  We are Air Force people here and they way that base was set up
was totally CRAZY TOWN!!! We managed to get to MWR and pick up
discount tickets for Sea World, fill up with gas (at $3.09.9 per
gallon) and go to the BX/PX what ever the navy calls their shopping
area, where I picked up a couple of fabulous Navy t-shirts (Mr. B
just waited patiently while it took me 30 minutes to narrow down
which two I wanted....he bought soup ladles....go figure....)
>  
> Food and Hornblower movies rounded out the day.
>  
> Next stop was a tour hour harbor tour aboard the Pacific Hornblower
(and yes, we saw a Renown as well)   We saw loads of Naval ships and
was able to see the famous hospital ship that I had seen on CNN
responding to world crisis.  Pretty cool!
>  
> We got to see props that had been purchased at the auction of
Hornblower items from the movies that some fan girls had attended and
picked up.  Shirts, buttons, books and the rocket launcher from
Loyalty when Hornblower blows up the sempiphore (SP?) tower.  Sorry
guys, it's late, 11:36 p.m., my feet and head are mush, I'm not going
to spell check!
>  
> Today we walked down to the harbor and had a private tour of a
1970's Russian sub, the HMS Surprise, the Star of India, as well as a
steamer ship that neither Mr. B or myself can remember the name of at
this point.   We spent four hours treading the boards of the ships,
getting sunburned and soaking up nautical history.  After that we
said goodbye to our Horatian friends, hopped in the car and drove to
Sea World to walk around the park for another few hours getting more
sunburned and foot sore.   After all of that we had to climb in our
car, navigate INSANE California traffic and get to Las Vegas for the
night.
>  
> Tomorrow will be the final push to get back home.
>  
> It has been a wonderful trip starting out with the ever awe
inspiring Grand Canyon on Thursday to Sea World with Stingrays eating
fish from my hand and watching the Shamu program and dolphin programs
to having sharks swimming over my head.
>  
> I'm so glad I took the time and effort to do this trip.  It was
well worth it and the convention ladies did a fabulous job putting it
all together.
>  
> Next year....on to Key West Florida.  I hope I'm able to make it.
>  
> Biki
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi everyone,
 
Well, the San Diego Convention is over .   We walked our feet off, took loads of
pictures and saw loads of stuff! 
 
The USS Midwayw was the first stop on the tour,  They have taken anything out of
it that was placed in it up to the 1990's before she was decomissioned so that
people could have the feel of what the ship was like in the 1940's when she was
launched.  Mr B and myself spent a lot of time watching our heads and walking
with our head to the side so that we didn't hit it on anything sharp and
pointy.  So much to see aboard that ship and they have done a fabulous job of
turning her into a learning experience.  We were given private tours.
Mr. B and I risked it all for a crazy drive to the San Diego Navy base.  We are
Air Force people here and they way that base was set up was totally CRAZY
TOWN!!! We managed to get to MWR and pick up discount tickets for Sea World,
fill up with gas (at $3.09.9 per gallon) and go to the BX/PX what ever the navy
calls their shopping area, where I picked up a couple of fabulous Navy t-shirts
(Mr. B just waited patiently while it took me 30 minutes to narrow down which
two I wanted....he bought soup ladles....go figure....)
 
Food and Hornblower movies rounded out the day.
 
Next stop was a tour hour harbor tour aboard the Pacific Hornblower (and yes, we
saw a Renown as well)   We saw loads of Naval ships and was able to see the
famous hospital ship that I had seen on CNN responding to world crisis.  Pretty
cool!
 
We got to see props that had been purchased at the auction of Hornblower items
from the movies that some fan girls had attended and picked up.  Shirts,
buttons, books and the rocket launcher from Loyalty when Hornblower blows up the
sempiphore (SP?) tower.  Sorry guys, it's late, 11:36 p.m., my feet and head are
mush, I'm not going to spell check!
 
Today we walked down to the harbor and had a private tour of a 1970's Russian
sub, the HMS Surprise, the Star of India, as well as a steamer ship that neither
Mr. B or myself can remember the name of at this point.   We spent four hours
treading the boards of the ships, getting sunburned and soaking up nautical
history.  After that we said goodbye to our Horatian friends, hopped in the car
and drove to Sea World to walk around the park for another few hours getting
more sunburned and foot sore.   After all of that we had to climb in our car,
navigate INSANE California traffic and get to Las Vegas for the night.
 
Tomorrow will be the final push to get back home.
 
It has been a wonderful trip starting out with the ever awe inspiring Grand
Canyon on Thursday to Sea World with Stingrays eating fish from my hand and
watching the Shamu program and dolphin programs to having sharks swimming over
my head.
 
I'm so glad I took the time and effort to do this trip.  It was well worth it
and the convention ladies did a fabulous job putting it all together.
 
Next year....on to Key West Florida.  I hope I'm able to make it.
 
Biki

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On my first leg of the trip to get to the Hornblower Convention down in San
Diego today! YAY!!
 
I'll raise a glass for everyone who was unable to make it to this years con.
 
Biki




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oooohhhh....I don't think you've missed much!
I've posted two book reports. 
 
I've been on vacation to Las Vegas, Washington DC, and went ziplining and white
water rafting.  Had a good summer.
Next month I'm headed to San Diego for the annual Horatio Hornblower
Convention.  Stopping by the Grand Canyon on the way to California.
 
You???
 
Biki

--- On Sun, 9/7/08, David Phillip Bennett <dpbennett@...> wrote:

From: David Phillip Bennett <dpbennett@...>
Subject: [dudleypope] I'm back
To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 11:02 PM






I've been "no mail" all summer but have now returned to "individual
emails" again. I hope everyone has had a good summer. Anything
interesting going on?

Dave Bennett
Aldergrove, BC


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been "no mail" all summer but have now returned to "individual
emails" again. I hope everyone has had a good summer. Anything
interesting going on?

Dave Bennett
Aldergrove, BC

I finished the second book in the Ethan Gage series a few days ago. 
The rollercoaster ride just keeps on going with this story! 
Once again we get to see Sir Sydney Smith in action in Egypt after his escape
from a French prison.  He pits his future against Napoleon's aggression
defending the city of Acre. 
Along the way Ethan gets shot at in a massacre ordered by Napoleon, stabbed at,
hung upside down over a pit of angry snakes,  almost drownes,  attacked by a
lion, poisoned and thrown into a pond with a hungry crocodile.  This guy has
more luck and more lives then a cat.
However, in the end when he is back in Napoleon's clutches he is ordered to
America to look for other treasure and knowledge to further Napoleon's drive
towards world domination.
 
I rate these stories right up there with Bernard Cornwells Richard Sharpe tales,
a whole lot of action with a bit of true history and characters thrown in the
along the way.
 
Biki




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,
 
I hope everyone has enjoyed their summer and have stayed safe and healthy.
I've had a terrific summer and am sad to see it come to an end.  However, I do
have the Hornblower convention held in San Diego in October to look forward to
still.
 
I just finished reading the book Napoleon's Pyramids by William Dietrich and
really LOVED the story! 
It's set at the time of Napoleon's invasion of Egypt and is told from the view
of an American adverturist named Ethan Gage.  He was an apprentice to Benjamin
Franklin in Paris and is a very small celebrity for his "tiny" knowledge of
electricty that he learned from B.F. 
 
The hero is a very likable guy with all the human failings and shortcomings that
he readily admits about himself.  He is in a Paris slum gambling (quite
successfully) when a French soldier gambles away a medallion to him that sends
him on a rip-roaring rollarcoaster ride of adventure.  There are ships and sea
battles as well as the Battle of Abukir Bay that you get to read about from the
deck of L'Orient  as our poor American trys to solve the mystery of the
medallion as well as get off the ship before it blows to cinders. 
 
There is something for everyone within the pages of the book.  There is a second
book out that I will start reading tonight called The Rosetta Key which picks up
Gages adventures and keeps the action going.
 
A very cool side note is that this author has used Sir Sydney Smith in the
stories as well as Horatio Nelson. 
I really became interested in his history after reading the two books written by
Tom Grundner.
 
I went out to the Authors web page today and was able to leave a message telling
him  how much I enjoyed the book and hoped there would be more stories written
to this series.
He was kind enough to e-mail back today and told me that book #3 The Dakota
Cypher will be published March 28th of 2009 and he is in the process of working
on book #4 right now.  So...good news there!
 
I just love finding a new author who writes about that era of history!
I have already gone out and ordered these books for my own collection as I
picked them up in the library to read first to determine if they were any good
or not.  I'm happy to say they are very, very good.
 
Things I liked about the book:
Everything.  It grabs your attention right from the start and keeps you going
through the whole book.
Well likable characters and history written in a way that won't put you to
sleep.
It brings in the intrigue of the Freemason brotherhood, as well as new thoughts
about the pyramids and what may lay under them.
 
Things I didn't like about the book:
Nothing really, the only thing I wished the author had done was taken the time
to describe Ethan Gage's physical appearence so that you could get an idea in
your mind what he really looks like.  I didn't catch that part of the story and
maybe I just blanked it out and it is there and I just didn't allow it to sink
in.
 
Biki




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh I would say firearms.  Although she did purchase a sword for Nicholas when he
made post...so...either way.

Biki

Donald Telfer <telfer_db@...> wrote:
           "Nice, short, sweet and to the point."

?, ?, ?, ?

Come to think of it, that could almost be a minimal description of a
certain Contessa, although I am not sure if her forte was swordplay
(to the point) or firearms.

DT

--- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, Biki Cat <bikicat2001@...> wrote:
>
> Nice, short, sweet and to the point.
>
> Biki
>
> Donald Telfer <telfer_db@...> wrote:
> Favourite = Ramage
> Second favourite = Ramage and the Drumbeat
>
> To me they go downhill by way of interest, including romantic
interest,
> after that, give me more female Italian aristocrats...
>
> DT
>
> --- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, Biki Cat <bikicat2001@> wrote:
> >
> > I just finished the entire series on Sunday night. Since then
I've
> had this question bumping around in my brainbox....
> >
> >
> > My question is this....which book is your favorite? And why?
Which
> book is your least favorite? And why?
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
Search.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Nice, short, sweet and to the point."

   ?,     ?,     ?,               ?

Come to think of it, that could almost be a minimal description of a
certain Contessa, although I am not sure if her forte was swordplay
(to the point) or firearms.

DT

--- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, Biki Cat <bikicat2001@...> wrote:
>
> Nice, short, sweet and to the point.
>
>   Biki
>
> Donald Telfer <telfer_db@...> wrote:
>           Favourite = Ramage
> Second favourite = Ramage and the Drumbeat
>
> To me they go downhill by way of interest, including romantic
interest,
> after that, give me more female Italian aristocrats...
>
> DT
>
> --- In dudleypope@yahoogroups.com, Biki Cat <bikicat2001@> wrote:
> >
> > I just finished the entire series on Sunday night. Since then
I've
> had this question bumping around in my brainbox....
> >
> >
> > My question is this....which book is your favorite? And why?
Which
> book is your least favorite? And why?
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo!
Search.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Just thought I would re-send out the web site information for this years Horatio
Hornblower Convention in San Diego California.

   http://www.hhus2008.com/index.htm

   I just sent in mine along with my husbands.  We will both be there with ships
bells on.

   Biki


---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ummm...it's in the subject line.  HMS Diamond

Michael O'Sullivan <silverfoxhp4@...> wrote:          please confirm the
names of the book to which you refer

Thanks

----- Original Message ----
From: Biki Cat <bikicat2001@...>
To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com; broadsides@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 22 February, 2008 6:22:23 PM
Subject: [dudleypope] HMS Diamond

I flew through this book in one day. It is the second book in the Sir Sydney
Smith series and I can't believe this, but it just got better and better! I
think as the author "grows" with this series, that the stories will be awesome!
Ten years have passed since the end of the first book and you find the three
hero's some what dis-satisfied with their current situations when Smith is able
to get them all back together again just in time for the horror of Toulon. From
there comes the story of Smith's real life adventures in burning the fleet and
warehouses to the ground and waterline.
He is then put in charge of solving the problem of missing gold shipments with
payment for Englands debts and from that adventure Smith and Walker are captured
by the French and are on their way to Paris to be tried as spies.
I'm not going to go into detail because I want you to read the book for
yourself, however I can say that he spends 2 years in a French prison for a very
real reason. We'll all just have to wait for the third book to find out what
happens next.

Again the author delivers a knock-out punch of a book with wit and laughter that
will have you inpatiently waiting for more.

Biki

------------ --------- --------- ---
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

please confirm the names of the book to which you refer

Thanks


----- Original Message ----
From: Biki Cat <bikicat2001@...>
To: dudleypope@yahoogroups.com; broadsides@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 22 February, 2008 6:22:23 PM
Subject: [dudleypope] HMS Diamond

I flew through this book in one day. It is the second book in the Sir Sydney
Smith series and I can't believe this, but it just got better and better! I
think as the author "grows" with this series, that the stories will be awesome!
Ten years have passed since the end of the first book and you find the three
hero's some what dis-satisfied with their current situations when Smith is able
to get them all back together again just in time for the horror of Toulon. From
there comes the story of Smith's real life adventures in burning the fleet and
warehouses to the ground and waterline.
He is then put in charge of solving the problem of missing gold shipments with
payment for Englands debts and from that adventure Smith and Walker are captured
by the French and are on their way to Paris to be tried as spies.
I'm not going to go into detail because I want you to read the book for
yourself, however I can say that he spends 2 years in a French prison for a very
real reason. We'll all just have to wait for the third book to find out what
happens next.

Again the author delivers a knock-out punch of a book with wit and laughter that
will have you inpatiently waiting for more.

Biki

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I flew through this book in one day.  It is the second book in the Sir Sydney
Smith series and I can't believe this, but it just got better and better!  I
think as the author "grows" with this series, that the stories will be awesome!
   Ten years have passed since the end of the first book and you find the three
hero's some what dis-satisfied with their current situations when Smith is able
to get them all back together again just in time for the horror of Toulon.  From
there comes the story of Smith's real life adventures in burning the fleet and
warehouses to the ground and waterline.
   He is then put in charge of solving the problem of missing gold shipments with
payment for Englands debts and from that adventure Smith and Walker are captured
by the French and are on their way to Paris to be tried as spies.
   I'm not going to go into detail because I want you to read the book for
yourself, however I can say that he spends 2 years in a French prison for a very
real reason.  We'll all just have to wait for the third book to find out what
happens next.

   Again the author delivers a knock-out punch of a book with wit and laughter
that will have you inpatiently waiting for more.

   Biki


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Any takers?
>
>
> Tom Grundner

Here's mine, as it will appear on the Amazon site; Hope it helps:

The War of 1812 has been called many things, among them "useless,"
pointless," and "without significant result."   The authors of
Ironsides! The Ship, the Men and the Wars of the USS Constitution tend
to disagree with those assessments.  It is their view (and that of
this reviewer) that the War of 1812 helped to define the United States
as we now know it.

Ironsides! isn't just about a single ship or a single conflict.  It
covers the early formative years of the United States, its Army and
its Navy from about 1795 to about 1815.  It contains information as
diverse as wooden warship construction and rigging, recruiting, the
Quasi-War with France, officer procurement, fighting on the inland
lakes, gunnery drill, fleet dispositions for anti-slavery patrols in
the antebellum period, shipboard routine, and the transition of the US
Navy from sail to steam.

The basic thesis of Ironsides! is that the United States ventured into
building a navy to protect its interests abroad because diplomacy and
trade just were not working against revolutionary France or the
pirates of North Africa, and the "tribute" (also called squeeze or
protection money) they demanded would bankrupt an already thin
treasury.  The War of 1812, the conflict where Constitution became
famous, is treated first as a trade dispute (which it was) and as a
struggle over American sovereignty and their freedom to trade with
anyone they chose.  Absent from Ironsides! are extensive references to
the other issues, which included the impressment of sailors and the
still-unsettled northwestern border of the United States.

The work is divided into five parts: The Ship, The Men, The Wars, The
Rest of the Story, and Appendixes.  Each of the first four parts
contains a number of individual essays by one of the three authors.
well-researched and engagingly written. Essays on wooden warship
management, the roles of officers, gunnery and gunnery training, the
land war of 1812, politics and Constitution overhauls are loaded with
rich nuggets of information. The history of the entire US Navy up to
about 1815 can be traced through the pages of Ironsides!

While the main text is excellent it is somewhat short.  The first four
sections take up only 175 pages, half the book.  Each essay is well
enough done, but they do leave out critical details (such as the
logistical nightmare both sides faced on the Niagara front) and in
general are short on analysis.  Still, factual errors are rare enough
not to be notable except to scholars and true aficionados of the
period, and some issues like the motivations of Britain in 1812 in
issuing the Orders of Council are simply different interpretations of
very complex subjects that historians have quibbles about in symposia.

The appendixes are worth the entire cost of the book.  These are based
on the primary record, including selected letters between
Constitution's captains and the Navy, deck logs, personal journals,
the text of laws, naval regulations and more.  The bibliography is
extensive if not exhaustive, and nearly all the sources can be had,
somewhere and for a price.  If readers want more detail on
Constitution they can look into A Most Fortunate Ship by Tyrone
Martin; for more on the formative years of the US Navy Ian Toll's Six
Frigates is a good bet.  There really isn't a great deal other than
the standards out there on the War of 1812 and the Barbary Wars that
this reviewer has read and can comment on.

This edition is a reprint of Old Ironsides: An Illustrated Guide to
USS Constitution.  Fireship's edition the same text and, according to
the jacket and inside frontispiece, only the organization and layout
has changed.  If so they might have done better with closer editing
and proofing.  Typographical errors and missing words are a frequent
annoyance.  But in this kind of work, written possibly at different
times by scholars working essentially on their own without an editor
(presumably) then putting the essays together just before publishing
it is practically inevitable.  While the stand-alone essay format
instead of contiguous flowing chapters is a good way to make this kind
of broad-ranging subject work, it can lend itself to technical challenges.

Despite the typos, Ironsides! is a worthwhile effort.  If you have
only limited time in your schedule or space on your shelf  to cover
the early years of the US Navy, the War of 1812, the Barbary Wars, USS
Constitution or wooden ships at the end of the Age of Fighting Sail,
Ironsides! fulfills all those requirements.

John D. Beatty, is a Wisconsin writer and researcher of military
history and was a contributor to the Garland Encyclopedia of World War
II in Europe.  He has worked in US Army Military Intelligence, holds a
BA in American Military History from American Military University, and
is a Master's candidate in American History at AMU, and American
Public University System school.

Hi all
Just finished Julian Stockwin book Comand.
Like the rest of this series it made enjoyable reading.
The time spent here in Australia more so but I think the timeline with
regard to Mathew Flinder, George Bass and Governors Hunter and King seem
wrong (must check this out it was the history I learnt 50 years ago much
of it wrong). It was certainly a coulorful time with the "NSW RUM CORP"
Macarthers etc.
Jim