Venerable Bhikkhu Aggacito,
Op 1-feb-2009, om 6:59 heeft reverendaggacitto het volgende geschreven:

> This is bhikkhu aggacitto Checking in saying hello!
> i am going to be going to India in a few days (Southern)
> Does any body have any recommendations for a place where i can study
>
> and work on my jhanna access?
------
N: It is kind of you to greet us. I wish you a very fruitful journey
in India. I went there many times, to the holy places where we had
Dhamma discussions. For me personally Dhamma discussions help since
it is a condition to develop more understanding of the present moment.
Actually, for all bhaavana, be it samatha or vipassanaa, I think that
it is understanding that matters most and not so much the place where
one is.
With respectful greetings,
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear friends,

sutta (48): Olds:
[ 3.48 ] Three Developments[ 3.48 ]: Development of Body, Development
of Mind, Development of Wisdom
Tisso bhaavanaa - kaayabhaavanaa, cittabhaavanaa, pa~n~naabhaavanaa.

----------

N: The Co states that these are the developments of the arahat who
has eradicated the aasavas, intoxicants. As to the development of the
body, this is the body of the five doors, pa~ncadvaarika kaayo. As to
the develoment of mind, citta bhaavanaa, these are the eight jhaana
attainments. As to development of wisdom, pa~n~naa bhaavanaa, this is
the pa~n~naa accompanying the fruition-consciousness, phalacitta, of
the arahat.

The arahat has complete development of the five doorways, they are
well developed (subhaavito).

The subco : kaayo is the aggregation of phassa and the other dhammas.
By reaching the topmost Path the arahat abandoned all defilements.

N: The arahat has developed the pa~n~naa that penetrates the
characteristics of all objects contacted by phassa.

subco: As to the development of the mind, the eight attainments are
not weak, as in the case of others.

The subco adds: because all defilements are completely abandoned.

The co: As to the development of wisdom, this has been fully developed.

N: When pa~n~naa accompanying the phalacitta of the arahat arises,
there is nothing further to be done.

The arahat sees, hears, experiences all objects appearing through the
senses, and these are pleasant or unpleasant objects, but the arahat
has perfect equanimity, no matter what object has been contacted.

Arahtship is a long way to go, but the person who became an arahat
had to begin once, being aware of whatever object impinged on one of
the senses. For us worldlings many kinds of defilements arise on
account of the objects that are experienced. Even when we are not
harming others, when we are distracted, daydreaming, many defilements
pass unnoticed. Pa~n~naa can come to realize our defilements and this
is the way to see them as mere dhammas, conditioned dhammas. If
defilements are not seen as they are they cannot be eradicated.

*********

Co: Bhaavanaasu khii.naasavassa pa~ncadvaarikakaayo kaayabhaavanaa
naama. A.t.tha samaapattiyo cittabhaavanaa naama.
Arahattaphalapa~n~naa pa~n~naabhaavanaa naama...

*******

Nina.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Lukas,
Op 31-jan-2009, om 15:26 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven:

> Actually I've got a problem with my Vibhanga. There is
> > reference to Dhammasangani. I'll quote it:
> > " Therein what is subtle material quality? The controlling faculty
> of
> > feminity, :P the nutrient factor of food. This is called subtle
> > material quality."
> >
> > Can you quote those parts the text refers to?
--------
N: As I understand, you are now studying the five khandhas being
gross or subtle, and you were considering rupakkhandha as gross or
subtle. In the text the complete list is omitted.
To make it easier for me (short of time) I shall quote from my ruupas.

< Rúpas can be classified as gross and subtle. As we have seen (in
Chapter 4), twelve kinds of rúpa are gross: visible object, sound,
odour, flavour and three of the four Great Elements which are
tangible object (excluding cohesion), as well as the five sense-
organs. They are gross because of impinging: visible object impinges
on the eyesense, sound impinges on the earsense, and each of the
other sense objects impinges on the appropriate sense-base. The other
sixteen kinds of rúpa are subtle. What is subtle is called “far”
because it is difficult to penetrate, whereas what is gross is called
“near”, because it is easy to penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73).>
Thus, in our dail life seven ruupas impinge all the time on the
relevant sensedoors and they can gradually be known as they are.
Three of them are tangible object: solidity appearing as hardness or
softness, heat appearing as heat or cold, and motion appearing as
motion or pressure (resilience, oscillation).
The subtle ruupas are:

cohesion
femininity
masculinity
heart-base
life faculty
nutrition
space
bodily intimation
speech intimation
lightness
plasticity
wieldiness
origination
continuity
decay
impermanence

These are hard to penetrate.

***
Nina.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Lukas,
I meant to tell you that I saw in the text that also food is an
external rupa.

Nina.

Dear Nina
What is a pali term for the food you refers to?

What is external vedana, sankhara and vi~n~nyana?

> Dear Lukas,
> I meant to tell you that I saw in the text that also food is an
> external rupa.

Bye
Lukas

Dear All,

Continuing:

The Path of Purification.

"39.But if he cannot effect the resolution into elements, he should
try the giving of a gift.  It can either be given by himself to the
other or accepted by himself from the other.  But if the other's
livelihood is not purified and his requisites are not proper to be
used, it should be given by oneself.  And in the one who does this the
annoyance with the person entirely subsides.  And in the other even
anger that has been dogging him from a past birth subsides at the
moment, as happened to the senior elder who received a bowl given to
him at the Cittalapabbata Monastery by an almsfood-eater elder who had
been three times made to move from his lodging by him, and who
presented it with these words: 'Venerable sir, this bowl worth eight
ducats was given me by my mother who is a lay devotee, and it is
rightly obtained; let the good lay devotee acquire merit'.  So
efficacious is this act of giving.  And this is said:

'A gift for taming the untamed
A gift for every kind of good
Through giving gifts they do unbend
And condescend to kindly speech'."

Path of Purity.

"If he is unable to analyze the elements, he should perform the
sharing of gifts: he should give to another what belongs to himself,
receive what belongs to another.  And if another is impure in
livelihood and has property he has no right to have, he should give
from his own.  If he does so, his hatred of that person must certainly
subside.  And the anger of the other man which has been pursuing him
since past existences subsides that very moment.  Pi.n.dapaatika the
Elder has been ousted from his bed three times at Cittalapabbata
Monastery.  'Sir, this bowl worth eight pieces of money was given by
my mother, the lay-sister.  It is a righteous gift.  Please make merit
for a great lay-sister.' - so saying, he gave the bowl to the senior
monk.  So powerful is this alms-giving.  And this has been said: -

'Alms-giving tames untamed men,
Effects it purpose everywhere.
By gifts and speaking kindly words,
Men raise their heads, while others bow.'"

Dhaatuvinibbhoga.m pana kaatu.m asakkontena daanasa.mvibhaago
kaatabbo. Attano santaka.m parassa daatabba.m, parassa santaka.m
attanaa gahetabba.m. Sace pana paro bhinnaajiivo hoti
aparibhogaarahaparikkhaaro, attano santakameva daatabba.m. Tasseva.m
karoto ekanteneva tasmi.m puggale aaghaato vuupasammati. Itarassa ca
atiitajaatito pa.t.thaaya anubandhopi kodho ta"nkha.na~n~neva
vuupasammati, cittalapabbatavihaare tikkhattu.m
vu.t.thaapitasenaasanena pi.n.dapaatikattherena 'aya.m , bhante,
a.t.thakahaapa"nagghanako patto mama maataraa upaasikaaya dinno
dhammiyalaabho, mahaaupaasikaaya  pu~n~nalaabha.m karothaa 'ti vatvaa
dinna.m patta.m laddhamahaatherassa viya. Eva.m mahaanubhaavameta.m
daana.m naama. Vuttampi ceta.m -

'Adantadamana.m daana.m, daana.m sabbatthasaadhaka.m;
Daanena piyavaacaaya, unnamanti namanti caa 'ti.

Sincerely,

Scott.

Dear pt,
Op 31-jan-2009, om 14:07 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven:

> 1. Does a sense-door process always have to be followed by a mind-door
> process?
------
N: Yes, the cittas in the following mind-door process experience the
same ruupa as that experienced in the preceding sense-door process.
---------
>
> > -------
> > N: Thinking of the meaning, defining etc. take place at other mind-
> > door processes arising later on, not in the mind-door process that
> > immediately follows a sense-door process.
>
> 2. So, what happens in the mind-door process that immediately follows
> the sense-door process?
-------
N: See above. Also the javanacittas are of the same type as those of
the preceding sense-door process.
---------
>
> 3. During thinking, in a sequence of many consecutive mind-door
> processes, how is the object of citta(s) "locked in"? By
> mano-dvaravajjana citta? For example, when there is a certain topic,
> or thought, or even a mind quality that is being considered, how does
> that idea/concept become an object of the mind-door process? Is it
> because mano-dvaravajjana citta "grabs" onto it? I'm mystified how
> come there are no more cittas besides mano-dvaravajjana citta to
> "prepare" the mental object for the mind-door process in a similar way
> that a sense object is "prepared" by sense-door process for the
> mind-door process.
----------
N: Often thinking thinks on account of what was experienced earlier
through the senses. For example, one may smell an odour and this
evokes reminiscences of an odour we experienced in the past, we never
know what will happen. One draws on endlessly, long stories. This
also happens when we are dreaming. That is because of our
defilements, the arahat does not dream, he has no defilements.
Because of sa~n~naa realities and concepts are remembered. Sa~n~naa
can be wrong sa~n~naa of permanence, happiness, sukha, self, attaa,
beautiful, subha. We are likely to think of persons and things as if
they last or exist (niccaa sa~n~naa and attaa sa~n~naa). Through
insight there can be the realisation of aniccaa sa~n~naa and anattaa
sa~n~naa.
We think about what we heard or saw, what people told us. It is
because of kamma that we meet certain people, good or bad, and these
influence our thinking. Or we listen to Dhamma recordings or people
ask us questions on Dhamma and we have to consider what to answer.
We cannot trace why we think of this or of that topic. It is not
necessary to do this, it is best to see thinking as a conditioned naama.
---------

> pt: 4. When we think, we usually use internal verbalization, mental
> images
> (pictures) and even mental sounds. How are these things classified in
> abhidhamma? I mean, I guess they are not perceived through the senses,
> even though they are similar to seeing and hearing, so I guess they
> would have to go through a mind-door process?
---------
N:These are all ideas or concepts, pa~n~natti, classified as
pa~n~natti. But the thinking itself is naama. Concepts are
experienced in mind-door processes.

******
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Friends,
Karunadasa continues:

Hence in presenting the teaching the Buddha does not exceed linguistic
conventions (na hi Bhagava samannat atidhavati),149 but uses such terms as
"person" without being led astray by their superficial implications (aparamasat
voharati).150 Because the Buddha is able to employ such linguistic designations
as "person" and "individual" without assuming corresponding substantial
entities, he is called "skilled in expression" (vohara-kusala).151 The use of
such terms does not in any way involve falsehood.152 Skilfulness in the use of
words is the ability to conform to conventions (sammuti), usages (vohara),
designations (pannatti), and turns of speech (nirutti) in common use in the
world without being led astray by them.153 Hence in understanding the teaching
of the Buddha one is advised not to adhere dogmatically to the mere superficial
meanings of words.154

The foregoing observations should show that according to the Theravada version
of double truth, one kind of truth is not held to be superior to the other.
Another interesting conclusion to which the foregoing observations lead is that
as far as the Theravada is concerned, the distinction between sammuti-sacca and
paramattha-sacca does not refer to two kinds of truth as such but to two ways of
presenting the truth. Although they are formally introduced as two kinds of
truth, they are explained as two modes of expressing what is true. They do not
represent two degrees of truth of which one is superior or inferior to the
other. This explains why the two terms, katha (speech) and desana (discourse),
are often used with reference to the two kinds of truth.155 In this respect the
distinction between sammuti and paramattha corresponds to the distinction made
in the earlier scriptures between nitattha and neyyattha. For, as we saw
earlier, no preferential value-judgement is made between nitattha and neyyattha.
All that is emphasized is that the two kinds of statement should not be
confused. The great advantage in presenting sammuti and paramattha in this way
is that it does not raise the problem of reconciling the concept of a plurality
of truths with the well-known statement of the Suttanipata: "Truth is indeed
one, there is no second" (ekat hi saccat na dutiyam atthi).156

notes:
149. KvuA 103.
150. Cf. KvuA 103 <snip>
151. SA I 51.
152. Cf. MA 125 <snip>
153. DA I 251.
154. <snip> (Abhvt 88).
155. A I 54; Abhvk 324.
156. Suttanipata v.884.

This is the final extract:
The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA
Y. Karunadasa; The Wheel Publication No. 412/413

Internet edition 22 June 1997 - world.std.com/~metta; 1996 - BPS
zeh-verlag.de/download/dhammatheory.pdf
abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm

peace,
connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Lukas,
Op 1-feb-2009, om 12:43 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven:

> What is a pali term for the food you refers to?
-------
N: Dhsg 674: What is that [material] form which is external (to the
self- baahira.m)?
The sphere of the five kinds of sense-objects...and bodily nutriment-
this is that [material] form which is external (to the self- baahira.m).

Pali: Kataman ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m?
Rupaayatana.m...pe... kabali"nkaaro aahaaro-idan ta.m ruupa.m
baahira.m.>

kabali"nkaaro aahaaro: morsel made food, thus the food that can be
eaten. It supports the inward nutrition (oja) so that it can produce
new ruupas.
-------
>
> L: What is external vedana, sankhara and vi~n~nyana?
-------
N: Text Vis. 198. (iv)-(v) The classification into 'internal' and
'external' should
be understood according to the internal in the sense of one's own.
------
N: External feeling is feeling of another person. We read in the
“Book of Analysis”: <Therein what is external feeling? That feeling
which, for this or that other being, for other persons, is personal,
self-referable, one’s own, individual and is grasped [by craving and
false view], (i.e.,) pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-
painful-nor-pleasant feeling...>
------
Also citta and the other accompanying cetasikas, apart from feeling,
can be classified as past, future or present, as internal or
external, as gross or subtle, as inferior or superior, and as far or
near.
Thus the other naamakkhandhas can be internal or external in the same
way.

Nina.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. It's really great being able to ask
you questions directly.

I wish you a good trip and hope to continue the discussion when you
come back.

Sincerely
pt

There was a group called DSG
...Dhamma Study Group,
But in that group the Study was
a pre-subscripted loop.


They used the Buddha's teaching
to merely support dogmatic ends,
Commentarial promoted points
by K Sujin and friends.


Oh a twisted tale we tell
when tails lead toward the truth,
I might point out it's ass-backwards
but that would be uncouth.


And so I'll leave it in your hands
the best to you I glibly-wish,
But DSG methinks it stands
for Demented Sectarian Gibberish.


I'm telling you and this is true
I love you just the same,
Conditions made me send this thing
There's no TG to  blame.                                     :-)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear TG,
I had to laugh about it all.
I know you are a poetical guy. Perhaps you wrote many peoms we do not
know about.
Looking forward to other poems, but I hope deeper and more serious.
You can do better, I know:-))
Nina.

Op 1-feb-2009, om 20:09 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven:

> I'm telling you and this is true
> I love you just the same,
> Conditions made me send this thing
> There's no TG to blame. :-)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your a sweetheart Nina!



In a message dated 2/1/2009 12:27:41 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Dear  TG,
I had to laugh about it all.
I know you are a poetical guy. Perhaps  you wrote many peoms we do not
know about.
Looking forward to other  poems, but I hope deeper and more serious.
You can do better, I  know:-))
Nina.


**************Know Your Numbers: Get tips and tools to help you improve your
credit score.
(http://www.walletpop.com/credit/credit-reports?ncid=emlcntuswall00000002)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, TG (and Nina) -

In a message dated 2/1/2009 2:28:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
TGrand458@... writes:

Your a  sweetheart Nina!
----------------------------------------------
Howard:
     Yes, indeed she is. I was actually about to reply  to your post in a
somewhat less laid back and accepting way ;-)), but  Nina has saved me from
that!
----------------------------------------------





In a message dated 2/1/2009 12:27:41 P.M. Mountain  Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Dear  TG,
I  had to laugh about it all.
I know you are a poetical guy. Perhaps  you  wrote many peoms we do not
know about.
Looking forward to other   poems, but I hope deeper and more serious.
You can do better, I   know:-))
Nina.
============================
With metta,
Howard


/A change  in anything is a change in  everything/

(Anonymous)
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa"
<dkotschessa@...> wrote:
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
> <epsteinrob@> wrote:
>

<. . .>

> Just want to throw in my support for Rob's perspective (I don't
know
> if that's a good thing or a bad thing for Rob :) ) here.  These
> threads have been frustrating to read becuase Robert has asked a
> very simple question over and over and over, and it has gone
> unanswered.
>
> Robert is still asking:  "Why is meditation different than
listening
> to dhamma talks?"  From memory I think he's posed the question in
> some form or another about 5 times and nobody has even addressed
the
> question.  Do we conlude that no-one has an answer?
------------

Hi Dave,

It's nice of you to support Robert, although I think he has a lot of
support here already. :-) Please believe me, we on the non-formal-
mediation side have been trying our best to answer his question. I
can see the answer as plain as day  in all of our replies.

Robert has been a member of DSG for many years (although not always
an active one) and we have been discussing this same topic for many
years.

There are other long term members who share Robert's difficulty -
they still can't see the answer we have been trying to give them. Or,
when they can see it, they forget it very quickly and ask the same
question again a week later.

So please bear with us, the answer is there in black and white. :-)

Ken H

Dear Bhikkhu Aggacitto,

Try this:
http://www.paaukforestmonastery.org/contact.htm

May your quest be fruitful.

mahakaruna,
~upasaka silananda

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 1:59 PM, reverendaggacitto <
reverendaggacitto@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Everybody!
> This is bhikkhu aggacitto Checking in saying hello!
> i am going to be going to India in a few days (Southern)
> Does any body have any recommendations for a place where i can study
>
> and work on my jhanna access?
>
> Thank you all!
>
> bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom
<vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Robert,
> A long time ago I posted some parts of it, it is very good. Food for
> thinking. Perhaps you could select small sections and repost them?
> People may not be inclined to read a long article and therefore,
> small sections at a time may help.
>
Dear Nina
Looking forward to meeting you on Thursday in Bangkok. Another
regular, Venerable Dhammavindo, is also very happy to be able to meet
you for the first time.

I add some points now. One of the things that has puzzled me for many
years is why the modern Theravada movement is so interested in
formal meditation. A french bhikkhu told me when he gives a talk these
days people  expect him to teachg meditation so he is pratically obliged
to give instructions on Anapanasati (even though he himself thinks it is
too difficult as an object ).

Is it  that people feel pressured by life and want some percived relief or
the promise of relief.
  I don't see why the obejcts that are appearing now at the sense doors
are believed to be so unimportant or uninteresting that one must try to
foucus on anything EXCEPT what is appearing naturally?
And then so many talk about theory as if it were something apart from
practice . The Buddhists of this age have really gone astray.

Perhaps this sutta can help:
How is insight developed and nibbana attained:
From the Digha nikaya

QUOTE
Sangiti sutta
"The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance:
XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here
a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma.
And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit
and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from
this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he
feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is
established [he attains nibban];

b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching
Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or

c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or

d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders
over it and concentrates his attention on it; or

e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well
considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it
with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight,
and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a
result, and with this happiness his mind is established.""endquote


Notice the first 4 ways of liberation, a -d, do not mention gaining
mundane
jhana.

Does anyone think they need a special posture to recite Dhamma or
listen to it?  Why do they think there cannot arise panna now, or when
walking normally (why should it be slow?) Can it arise when having a
hot bath?
Perhaps these questions never occur if one is convinced that Dhamma is
about sitting closed eyes with upright back and walking slowly.
Robert

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
<epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>
   What seems good to
> me about meditation is that once you are sitting you have a chance to
> pay attention to the arising moments without constant shifting
> distractions.  If you get an itch you can look at the namas and rupas
> that attend that itch.

dear Robert
When you talk about meditation do you mena satipatthana that leads
out of samsara or do you mean the way of samatha?

The post above looks like you mean satipatthana. I know it has been
said several hundred times on dsg but can you confirm that your realise
there are only genuine moments of satiptthana when there is refined
panna that is dislodging the idea of a self.

I ask because what you describe above is almost guaranteeing that one
will increase the sense of self who can make sati arise, who can control
consciousnes to go here and there.
Robert

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
<epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Scott.
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <scduncan@>
wrote:
> >
> > Dear Robert E.,
> >
> > R: "...You still haven't said why meditation - that is, sitting and
> > following the breath, sensations, emotions, thoughts, mental
factors,
> > as they arise, is to be shunned and can only be akusala, any more
than
> > sutta reading or lectures. I can keep repeating this question, or you
> > can take a stab at answering it, or tell me that you can't answer it."
> >
> > Scott: Thank you, Rob, I think I'll pass on following up on this, if
> > you don't mind.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Scott.
> >
>
> That is fine, Scott.  I just must note in passing that I have never
> gotten an answer to this question, not just from you but from anyone.
>
> Best,
> Robert
>
> +++++

Dear Robert
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/95606
let us start with this post I just made.
Robert

Hi Ken.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau"
<kenhowardau@...> wrote:
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa"
> <dkotschessa@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
> > <epsteinrob@> wrote:
> >
>
> <. . .>
>
> > Just want to throw in my support for Rob's perspective (I don't
> know
> > if that's a good thing or a bad thing for Rob :) ) here.  These
> > threads have been frustrating to read becuase Robert has asked a
> > very simple question over and over and over, and it has gone
> > unanswered.
> >
> > Robert is still asking:  "Why is meditation different than
> listening
> > to dhamma talks?"  From memory I think he's posed the question in
> > some form or another about 5 times and nobody has even addressed
> the
> > question.  Do we conlude that no-one has an answer?
> ------------
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> It's nice of you to support Robert, although I think he has a lot of
> support here already. :-) Please believe me, we on the non-formal-
> mediation side have been trying our best to answer his question. I
> can see the answer as plain as day  in all of our replies.
>
> Robert has been a member of DSG for many years (although not always
> an active one) and we have been discussing this same topic for many
> years.
>
> There are other long term members who share Robert's difficulty -
> they still can't see the answer we have been trying to give them. Or,
> when they can see it, they forget it very quickly and ask the same
> question again a week later.
>
> So please bear with us, the answer is there in black and white. :-)
>
> Ken H
>

Really?  Please repeat it in black and white for me, if I am a bit
slow.  Put it right here where I can see it, if you don't mind  ----->

_____________________________________________________________________


If you say "this is the answer to the question" and spell it out [once
again, if you think you have already done so] I promise to write it
down and address it directly, and acknowledge that you have answered,
and what, if anything, I disagree with or agree with in the answer.

"Just once more for the road..."

Thanks,
Robert E.

======================

Hello Colette,

     sorry to hear that you are in a blue mood. dont know if its
appropriate here to say this, but ur friend is already a 'new being'
somewhere else. Hopefully in a pleasant realm.

     did you really walk all that distance? I have just walked around
the little town I've recently moved to, in the pouring rain. With a
great grin on my face as I love walking and love to walk in the rain.
     we have just had a cyclone pass over us, or at least nearby, and
have had lots of rain dumped on us, so this normally dry little town
has rivers flowing everywhere.
     Walking is good for the 'soul' - or really the liver :-)

  May all beings be happy,
  azita


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" <ksheri3@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Group,
>
> I'm in a blue mood and a blue period since one of the few friends I
> had just past away and everybody thought I was his relative. I
began
> the process, today, of honoring my word to him that I'd take care
of
> things for him.
>
> In the process of walking to/from my home to his home, then to the
> library, I've had time to contemplate quite a bit. If you don't
know
> me, then you wouldn't understand how much walking I've always done
> since 1980 (in 1982 I walked out of Phoenix Arizona to Gallup N.M.,
> or, when the Baptist mission I was living in, in the L.A. high
> desert, searched my things and found my deck of tarot card [a Waite
> Deck], they shipped me back to Santa Monica where all public
agencies
> told me that I'd have to walk to the Barrio, E.L.A., if I wanted
help
> from a public service, not in the White Middle Class suburbia of
> Santa Monica sonny), and this tremendous amount of walking I've
done
> has always come in handy to help facilitate my meditation and
> contemplations.
>
   ....snip.......
> > toodles,
> colette
>

Hi Robert.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
> <epsteinrob@> wrote:
> >
>   What seems good to
> > me about meditation is that once you are sitting you have a chance to
> > pay attention to the arising moments without constant shifting
> > distractions.  If you get an itch you can look at the namas and rupas
> > that attend that itch.
>
> dear Robert
> When you talk about meditation do you mena satipatthana that leads
> out of samsara or do you mean the way of samatha?
>
> The post above looks like you mean satipatthana. I know it has been
> said several hundred times on dsg but can you confirm that your realise
> there are only genuine moments of satiptthana when there is refined
> panna that is dislodging the idea of a self.
>
> I ask because what you describe above is almost guaranteeing that one
> will increase the sense of self who can make sati arise, who can
control
> consciousnes to go here and there.
> Robert
>

Hello, other Robert - since neither of us ultimately exists I don't
mind sharing the name with you.   I guess we just have a disagreement
here about what causes self to rise up and take credit for experience.
  Anyone who reads a sutta or sits in meditation *wants* to get to
nibbana, or at least gain insight and be in a more kusala state than
we are currently in.  That is a given.  One starts with this desire or
we wouldn't bother to read a sutta in the first place, or try to
understand the nature of the four noble truths or the eightfold path.

I look at meditation as a practical situation in which one practices
sati, and allow it to develop into satipatthana.  You say this means
that I must be increasing the sense of self being the owner or doer of
such a process, and that is where I disagree.  I can be pragmatic and
put this organism with its perception and mind into a certain
situation with an intention to follow the path, and then let it do
whatever it does after that. I do not have to have the subtle
underlying belief that *I* am controlling this process and am somehow
in charge of it.  Part of meditation is spotting such akusala moments
arising and seeing them for what they are.  Those who follow the
current Abhidhamma philosophy in this group seem to believe that this
is impossible, that the very act of sitting down to practice sati
means that the self-concept is being increased and that one feels they
can *produce* sati.  I feel that it is just that I recognize that this
is a situation in which sati can arise and that I am putting myself
there, and then I can either have a kusala or akusala approach.  It is
not pre-ordained just by the decision to practice, anymore than
deciding to read a sutta means the self is in charge of understanding
the sutta.

It is like saying that if I recognize I have an illness and I go to
the doctor, I am saying that *I* am in charge of the medical
procedure, and I am going to tell the doctor what to do and make my
own medical decision.  It doesn't make sense.  I go to the doctor
because I know that I am *not* in charge, and that the doctor will be
in charge and tell me what to do.  Likewise, if I sit and then allow
the moments to do whatever they will without any attempt to control
them, then I am surrendering to the meditation situation and letting
it take over, not me.  The question is whether meditation is a good
doctor or not, and I think it is, so I am willing to put myself in
that situation and allow it to take its course.  Just as I read a
sutta because I believe that the Doctor - the Buddha - knew how to
diagnose my situation and will help to cure my ailment - delusion - I
also follow doctor's orders when he says "meditate and recognize the
moments as they arise.  The more you practice this, the more you will
discern over time, even though you have no control over this process."

I am sure - correct me if I am wrong - that you believe that if you
are open to the moments that arise naturally in everyday life, as the
current version of Abhidhamma teaches, that over time you will get
better at it and panna will sometime develop; maybe not now, not
immediately, but when the conditions accumulate to allow it, and so
you "practice" as well as you can discerning the namas and rupas that
arise in the moment.   So it is with meditation for me:  I believe
that over time it will have a kusala impact and so I leave myself
available as much as I can *now* to see what arises and recognize it
for what it is - mind state, perception, sensation, emotion, whatever,
and then go with whatever comes up.

Buddha said that if such a process was partaken of for 7 years, 7
months or even 7 days, that the benefit would be great.  So I believe
the doctor and I do all the good things he advises - I read sutta, I
discuss points of confusion regarding the Dhamma, and I sit in
meditation and allow sati to arise as it will.

I don't see this as promoting the self, but as surrendering the self
to a process that I have been advised to do.

As for only panna being capable of sati, whatever will develop in
sitting, as in any activity, will develop when it will.  To say I
cannot practice anapanasati unless I already have the results of the
process in hand, seems patently absurd.  That is like saying you
cannot put any money in the bank and collect interest unless you
already have a million dollars.  Under those rules I will never get
anywhere.  It is Catch-22.

Again, if you believe that somehow everyday namas and rupas, dhamma
reading and study, com reading and interpretation and the wise advice
of the spiritual friend somehow promotes panna in a way that is
impossible in meditation, I would like to know how starting out
without panna develops sati in those situations, but cannot in
meditation.   I am still waiting for this clear distinction that to me
has never been given.   Perhaps you can explain why the meditation
intention is worse than the sutta intention or any other intention
which is pointed in the Buddha's direction.

Best,
Robert E.
   [the other non-Robert]

-----------------------------------------------

Hi Robert.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

> I ask because what you describe above is almost guaranteeing that one
> will increase the sense of self who can make sati arise, who can
control
> consciousnes to go here and there.
> Robert

I am re-answering this segment of your post because you referenced it
as an answer to my question about why meditation was a worse activity
for the arising of sati than other activities and would lead to an
increased sense of self controlling the process.

I would like to note that in the above you do indeed assert that
"...what you describe above is almost guaranteeing that one will
increase the sense of self who can make sati arise, who can control
consciousnes to go here and there," but you do not say why you believe
this is so, or how it would cause this to take place.

In fact what I said seems to me the opposite of what you assert.   My
example is that if I have an itch I can look at the namas and rupas
involved. Isn't that what you would do in an "everyday discernment of
the namas and rupas of everyday life?"   I am not saying that I can
guarantee sati or that I will see what is really there.  I am saying
that sitting without undue distractions gives me the opportunity to
take a look at whatever arises.  Like playing the piano, I assume that
if I spend time doing this, the muscle for it will be developed.  I
don't assume it is a random process, even though I am not in control
of it.   If an itch arises, check out the itch; if a thought arises,
check out the nama.  What is the problem with that?  To me, it seems
like a practical way of doing what monks and householders have done
since the Buddha's time - sit and practice what he taught.

So just to emphasize, I don't think you have answered the question:
Why is meditation a worse situation for kusala cittas to arise than
any other Dhammic activity?

Best,
Robert E.

========================

Hi Robert.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

> Does anyone think they need a special posture to recite Dhamma or
> listen to it?  Why do they think there cannot arise panna now, or when
> walking normally (why should it be slow?) Can it arise when having a
> hot bath?
> Perhaps these questions never occur if one is convinced that Dhamma is
> about sitting closed eyes with upright back and walking slowly.
> Robert
>

I think there are a few misunderstandings here.  Just as one cannot be
an Abhidhamma expert without studying Abhidhamma, one cannot be a
meditation expert without meditating.  I don't think it's possible to
understand the fruits of meditation without engaging in it.  I know
there are some here with a meditation background who have given it up
as a result of the Abhidhamma teaching, and that is fine.  But in
general, I think it is hard to judge a practice from the standpoint of
an alternate choice.

Secondly, you seem to assume that meditators think they can sit with
eyes closed and the entire path will be handed to them on a silver
platter by mystical means.  Most who practice meditation also read and
study dhamma and try to apply the eightfold path to daily life as
well.  It is a balanced Buddhist approach, not 'either A or B, but not
both.'  There is no reason for the path to be polarized and have to
leave out some portion of the Buddha's teaching.

Best,
Robert E.

==========================================

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
<epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>> Again, if you believe that somehow everyday namas and rupas,
dhamma
> reading and study, com reading and interpretation and the wise advice
> of the spiritual friend somehow promotes panna in a way that is
> impossible in meditation, I would like to know how starting out
> without panna develops sati in those situations, but cannot in
> meditation.   I am still waiting for this clear distinction that to me
> has never been given.   Perhaps you can explain why the meditation
> intention is worse than the sutta intention or any other intention
> which is pointed in the Buddha's direction.
>
>
Dear Robert
I sense you have a genuine interest so I wish to go into this in detail.
We have to so point by point so I do it is a series of posts.
Could you first look at this quote and confirm you agree with the writer
about this. If you don't we have a major conflict in interpretation of what
the Buddha said, and view is what determines whether the path is right
or wrong.

The burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the
DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes this:


QUOTE
"Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of
continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise:

1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be
performed and

2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its
completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas

3)"I can perform" and

4) "I can feel".

Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought
about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.
But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such
functions" endquote
Robert

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
<epsteinrob@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert.
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@>
wrote:
>
> > Does anyone think they need a special posture to recite Dhamma or
> > listen to it?  Why do they think there cannot arise panna now, or
when
> > walking normally (why should it be slow?) Can it arise when having
a
> > hot bath?
> > Perhaps these questions never occur if one is convinced that
Dhamma is
> > about sitting closed eyes with upright back and walking slowly.
> > Robert
> >
>
> I think there are a few misunderstandings here.  Just as one cannot be
> an Abhidhamma expert without studying Abhidhamma, one cannot be
a
> meditation expert without meditating.  I don't think it's possible to
> understand the fruits of meditation without engaging in it.  I know
> there are some here with a meditation background who have given it
up
> as a result of the Abhidhamma teaching, and that is fine.  But in
> general, I think it is hard to judge a practice from the standpoint of
> an alternate choice.
>
> Secondly, you seem to assume that meditators think they can sit with
> eyes closed and the entire path will be handed to them on a silver
> platter by mystical means.  Most who practice meditation also read
and
> study dhamma and try to apply the eightfold path to daily life as
> well.  It is a balanced Buddhist approach, not 'either A or B, but not
> both.'  There is no reason for the path to be polarized and have to
> leave out some portion of the Buddha's teaching.
>
> Best,
> Robert E.
>
> ==========================================
Dear Robert
I mention an experience I had. In the late eighties I was staying at a
vipassana center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into
the town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and
someone said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a
girl asked me why I looked so bright and glowing.@I told her I was
staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her
father (or uncle or someone). He came out and asked me about
Dhamma and meditation and so on. All based on this glowing skin.

Actually I found out (eventually), that what it was, was a purified type of
lobha was conditioning this phenomena. But I was proud of it and
thought it a good thing. Delusion - but taken as the right way.

This type of subtle lobha is pleasant, and if it can be maintained you feel
calmer than normal daily life with its constant interupitions and
distractions. And it takes much effort to maintain it- but it is still only
lobha.
I am not suggesting this is related to you but I mention it to show how it
is possible to go wrong.
Thus I find it perfectly right to emphasize the subtlety of the path and
why the theory MUST be correct . If the foundation, the theory, is not
very stable then one is sitting on a house of cards (no matter how
upright and long one may sit).
robert

Dear Rob Ep,
Op 2-feb-2009, om 7:37 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven:

> Anyone who reads a sutta or sits in meditation *wants* to get to
> nibbana, or at least gain insight and be in a more kusala state than
> we are currently in. That is a given. One starts with this desire or
> we wouldn't bother to read a sutta in the first place, or try to
> understand the nature of the four noble truths or the eightfold path.
--------
N: Not quite. When lobha does not come in and hinders, the goal is
gaining more understanding of the namas and rupas of my life. I know
it is a very long practice, many aeons, and I do not expect to reach
nibbaana soon. It is good to have more understanding even it is very
little at a time, and that means a little less delusion.
--------

R:If an itch arises, check out the itch; if a thought arises,
check out the nama. What is the problem with that? To me, it seems
like a practical way of doing what monks and householders have done
since the Buddha's time - sit and practice what he taught.
------
N: If someone is inclined to sit, let him sit, he sits there already
because of his accumulated conditions. When you are sitting and sati
does not arise, it means that there are not enough conditions for it.
That teaches us something: sati cannot be manipulated.
If it arises, it does so because of its own conditions, namely,
understanding what sati is and what its object is: any reality
appearing now. If we think that it can only arise when we are in
quiet surroundings we create already an obstacle to sati, we do not
'let it arise' because of its own conditions.

You speak about'check out' the reality that arises. But there is more
to it. It is not just checking out but understanding. Understanding
leads to detachment from the idea of self who can do it all, who can
check out realities.

*******
Nina.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear friends,

We read in the “Kindred Sayings”( IV, Salåyatana vagga, Kindred
Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch III, § 193, Udåyin):

Once the venerable Ånanda and the venerable Udåyin were staying at
Kosambí in Ghosita Park. Then the venerable Udåyin, rising at
eventide from his solitude, went to visit the Venerable Ånanda, and
on coming to him... after the exchange of courtesies, sat down at one
side. So seated the venerable Udåyin said to the venerable Ånanda:
“Is it possible, friend Ånanda, just as this body has in divers ways
been defined, explained, set forth by the Exalted One, as being
without the self,-- is it possible in the same way to describe the
consciousness, to show it, make it plain, set it forth, make it
clear, analyze and expound it as being also without the self?”
“Just as this body has in divers ways been defined, explained, set
forth by the Exalted One, as being without the self, friend Udåyin,
so also is it possible to describe this consciousness, to show it,
make it plain, set it forth, make it clear, analyze and expound it as
being also without the self.
Owing to the eye and visible object arises seeing-consciousness, does
it not, friend?”
“Yes, friend.”
“Well, friend, it is by this method that the Exalted One has
explained, opened up, and shown that this consciousness also is
without the self. “
(The same is said with regard to the other doorways.)

If someone does not clearly know the reality which is nåma, doubt has
not been eliminated yet. If there is still doubt how can he realize
the noble Truths? Through which gate will he enter? The gateways
mentioned in the Commentary refer to the moment before lokuttara
citta arises and realizes nibbåna. In the process of attaining
enlightenment, mahå-kusala kåmåvacara citta (of the sense sphere)
arises before lokuttara citta arises, and it depends on conditions
which of the four satipatthånas this kåmåvacara citta takes as
object. However, this does not mean that someone could enter the
city, that is, realizing nibbåna, without clearly knowing the
characteristics of rúpakkhandha, vedanåkkhandha, saññåkkhandha,
sankhårakkhandha and viññånakkhandha.
Before someone can understand that this body is anattå and that
evenso this consciousness is anattå, the characteristics of nåma and
rúpa appearing at this moment must be “described, showed, made plain,
set forth, made clear, analysed and expounded”, as we read in the
Sutta. Characteristics of nåma and rúpa appear at this moment, while
we see, hear, smell, taste, experience tangible object or think.
**********
Nina.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
> <epsteinrob@> wrote:
> >> Again, if you believe that somehow everyday namas and rupas,
> dhamma
> > reading and study, com reading and interpretation and the wise
advice
> > of the spiritual friend somehow promotes panna in a way that is
> > impossible in meditation, I would like to know how starting out
> > without panna develops sati in those situations, but cannot in
> > meditation.   I am still waiting for this clear distinction that to me
> > has never been given.   Perhaps you can explain why the meditation
> > intention is worse than the sutta intention or any other intention
> > which is pointed in the Buddha's direction.
> >
>

Dear Robert
We have to know what the conditions are for panna to arise. The
reasons are pretty specific:
Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodhi
"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice
declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons
rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up
achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation
increases just like the full moon.""""

One has to know very accurately just what the Buddha taught, no other
way for panna to arise.
Robert

> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein"
> > <epsteinrob@> wrote:
> > >> Again, if you believe that somehow everyday namas and rupas,
> > dhamma
> > > reading and study, com reading and interpretation and the wise
> advice
> > > of the spiritual friend somehow promotes panna in a way that is
> > > impossible in meditation, I would like to know how starting out
> > > without panna develops sati in those situations, but cannot in
> > > meditation.   I am still waiting for this clear distinction that to me
> > > has never been given.   Perhaps you can explain why the meditation
> > > intention is worse than the sutta intention or any other intention
> > > which is pointed in the Buddha's direction.
> > >
>
Dear Robert
One has to understand that insight and understanding are not dependent
on posture or on closing ones eyes or being able to sit for one hour without
moving. If one thinks that tehse are critical elements of practice I would
say that one is missing  what the way is.

-------
Nina quoted the Visuddhimgga some time back:
  One of the Recollections mentioned in
the Visuddhimagga is Recollection of the Dhamma, Ch VII, 68-89. well

§ 71: <And when listened to, it does good through learning it because
it suppresses the hindrances, thus it is good in the beginning. And
when made the way of practice it does good through the way being
entered upon because it brings the bliss of serenity and insight,
thus it is good in the middle. And when it has thus been made the way
of practice and the fruit of the way is ready, it does good through
the fruit of the way because it brings [unshakeable] equipose, thus
it is good in the end.>
We read in § 88: <When he encounters an opportunity for
transgression, he has vivid awareness of conscience and shame on
recollecting the well-regulatedness of the Dhamma. And if he
penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny.>


You see this is Dhammanusati, one of the forty objects of samatha , why
are people these days not so keen on this but prefer anapansati, do you
know?


from Connie
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73458


QUOTE
"Just as a man who has found satisfaction in the choicest of tastes will not
yearn for other tastes of an inferior kind, so too, dear sir, one will no
longer have a liking for the doctrines of those many other ascetics and
brahmins, after one has listened to Master Gotama's Dhamma, be it
discourses, mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts.'

"Just as a man weakened by hunger who comes upon a honey cake,
wherever he eats of it he will enjoy a sweet, delicious taste; so too, dear
sir, whatever one hears of Master Gotama's Dhamma, be it discourses,
mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts, one will derive from it
satisfaction and confidence in one's heart."

Whatever one hears ... one will derive from it happiness and joy ... one's
sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair will vanish ... all one's
affliction, fatigue and feverish burning are allayed.>>>>>
Numerical Discourses. 112, Praising the Buddha. Book of Fives.::

The Vimana vatthu atthakatha: "Chattamanavakavimanavannana" )p365
PTS This relates the story of a man who merely took refuge in the Buddha
and the five precepts and was killed that same day. He was reborn in the
deva world . As a deva he comes and relates:


QUOTE
"behold how through few teaching I have gone to the happy destiny and
reached happiness..Those who continually hear Dhamma from you, these
methinks, touch the deathless (nibbana) the peace."

Perhaps that indicates why i think study of Dhamma is very useful.
Robert