Hi TG,
thank you for your useful remarks.
-------
TG: We can learn that in the
ultimate sense there is not a hard thing, and there is no body. There
is just the contact of element on element.

TG: I like and agree with this for the most part. However, I think it
puts
too much emphasis on NO to body and hard thing ... and YES to elements.
There is a way of looking at things that would have the mind think
"there is a
body." There is another way of looking at it that would have the mind
think
"there is no body."
-------
N: You are right. We have to find a balance. It may look like
annihilation. I like to keep in mind what I read in the Visuddhimagga
about past life and this life: neither the same nor another.
There is some continuity. When we think of the four factors that keep
on producing rupas throughout this lifespan, we can also see some
continuity in a life. The rupa that is eyesense falls away
completely, there is nothing left. But already kamma produces a new
eyesense. It is kamma not of someone else, but of this particualr
person.
---------
<We see people walking and moving their hands, and it is because of
<sa~n~na that we perceive this. In reality at each splitsecond all
<rupas fall away, nothing is left.

TG: Here's where you are relying on pure theory IMO. In a sense, since
there is continuous change, we might want to say that things arise
and fall away
moment by moment as each moment they become something a little
different.
But the above tone is far too dogmatic IMO. In my view, the Buddha
did not
teach impermanence in this way at all. Impermanence is always
presented in the
Suttas as a gradual changing process.
--------
N: I find the sutta on the lute rather strong:
< We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîĺyatana-vagga, Kindred
Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, chapter V, §205, The Lute) that the
Buddha said to the monks:

...Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a
rĺjah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says:
``Good men, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so
intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?''
Then they say to him: ``That, lord, is the sound of what is called a
lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so
ravishing, of such power to bind.''
Then he says: ``Go, my men. Fetch me that lute.''
So they fetch him that lute and say to him: ``This, lord, is that
lute, the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.''
Then he says: ``Enough of this lute, my men. Fetch me that sound.''
They say to him: ``This lute so called, lord, consists of divers
parts, a great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of
divers parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the
handle, the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort
of a player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers
parts, of a great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded
of divers parts.''
Then that rĺjah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces.
Having done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so,
he burns it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the
heap of ashes in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the
swift stream of a river.
Then he says: ``A poor thing is what you call a lute, my men,
whatever a lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and
led astray.''
Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is scope
for body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities
(saňkhĺrakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there is
scope for consciousness--in all of these investigations, whatever
there be of ``I'' or ``I am'' or ``Mine'', there is none of that for
him.>

There is nothing left of that lute.
Seeing falls away, and I do not see a gradual change of seeing.
Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. There is no time for a
gradual change.
--------

TG: I personally think the above account of impermanence -- rupas
being replaced
by new rupas, etc. -- is just flat wrong and not useful in applying
insight.
Also, it lacks a conditional component which I think is
counterproductive
to insight.
------
N: Eyesense falls away and is replaced, otherwise you would not be
seeing now. So long as kamma produces eyesense in your life there are
conditions for seeing. You do not create your own seeing, you do not
own it.
Concitions are being taught all the time, both for namas and for
rupas. Also, when we realize that a reality that falls away falls
away completely, helps us to have less conceit, clinging to my
important personality. Even when we understand this in theory, it
helps us to think in the correct way. This can condition direct
understanding. We have to begin somewhere and the right beginning,
correct intellectual understanding is what supports the development
of insight later on. Gradually so! Don't you think so?
Nina.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Howard,
--------
So, Nina, what you believe to be the case is fact, and the quarks and
so on of the physicists are not? I don't know how you know that. To
me it
makes more sense to say I believe something to be the case rather
than I know it
to be so when, in fact, I don't really know it to be so.
-------
N: I study the Tipataka and Commentaries and I have confidence in
them. What is taught in these texts I find very reasonable, it makes
sense to me.
I do not know anything about physics, but this cannot be compared to
the Dhamma. Physics do not lead to liberation.
I would rather replace the word belief by having confidence in.
Confidence, saddhaa is a sobhana cetasika, arising with sobhana
cittas. Thus, it is wholesome confidence, not blind faith. It is
based on understanding, even if this understanding is still
intellectual understanding, not yet insight, direct understanding.
---------
H: Now, I happen to believe in rupas also, Nina, very much so. But I
take
them to be elements of experience - physical experience, and not
liitle bits
of material.
------
N: Rupas are elements and they can be objects experienced by citta
which is also an element. Element means: a reality devoid of self.
Physical experience is not so clear: an experience is not physical,
it is nama. But you mean: experience of physical phenomena.
-------

H: For a science of materials I'd sooner turn to the chemists and
physicists circa 2007.
But the main point of my question is how studying about rupas as
opposed to subatomic particles is particularly suited to leading
towards awakening
and liberation. The subatomic particles of physics are every bit as
anicca,
sankhata, and anatta as are the rupas.
-------------------------------------
N: Science has another angle, see above. Why not be in comformity
with the texts that teach us about nama and rupa? Read again the
“Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint” (Middle
Length Sayings I, no. 28) where we read that Sĺriputta taught the
monks about the four Great Elements. We read about the element of
earth or solidity, which is translated here as “extension”:

<....And what, your reverences, is the element of extension? The
element of extension may be internal, it may be external. And what,
your reverences, is the internal element of extension? Whatever is
hard, solid, is internal, referable to an individual and derived
therefrom, that is to say: the hair of the head, the hair of the
body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones,
kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary,
stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is
internal....>
Note, there is internal solidity and external solidity.
----------

  > Take hardness, the element of solidity that appears through the
  > bodysense whenever we touch something hard. We can learn that in the
  > ultimate sense there is not a hard thing, and there is no body. There
  > is just the contact of element on element.
  > At each moment all the rupas of the body arise, due to the four
  > factors and then they fall away, there is nothing left of them.
  >
---------------------------------------
Howard:
Do you observe this falling away and replacement? We read that this
happens, just as we read that to be so for the subatomic particles.
Has any of
such reading *shown* you the radical impermanence of phenomena? Do
you expect
it to?
---------------------------------------
N: Not yet, but I have confidence that this is the right way. If the
right way is developed it will surely lead to such result.
---------
But >
  > rupas are replaced by new rupas and then our body seems such a solid
  > thing that remains. In reality there is nothing left when at each
  > moment each rupa falls away. This can be realized through the
  > development of insight.
  > We see people walking and moving their hands, and it is because of
  > sa~n~na that we perceive this. In reality at each splitsecond all
  > rupas fall away, nothing is left.

------------------------------------------
Howard:
Yes, yes - I believe this too. Belief is just belief.
--------
N: Again, shall we replace belief by confidence. And this should not
be unwarranted. Based on thorough study and consideration of the
entire Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included.
-----------------------------------------
  >
  > Molecules do not have characteristics that can be directly
  > experienced, knowing about them does not lead to detachment. One can
  > think about them, but thinking is only thinking.

------------------------------------------
Howard:
Do you directly experience rupas? I know you believe they can be
experienced, somehow. Actually, subatomic particles can in a way be
experienced.
-------------------------------------------
N: Note: I mean experienced by kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa.
We all experience hardness, but not necessarily by pa~n~naa. It is
experienced by the citta that is body-consciousness, and after that
kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. There can be akusala cittas
with ignorance that experience hardness.
The characteristics of rupa can be gradually understood and this
leads to detachment. This is different from looking at subatomic
particles. Is this done with understanding and detachment? The goal
is quite different.
----------
=====================
H:The point of my posts on this is twofold: 1) Belief is just belief,
and 2) Knowing does not come about just on the basis of belief.
-------
N: Confidence which is kusala and which is strengthened by
understanding.
When one has confidence in the teachings one will study and consider
more what is taught. One will also understand that sati and pa~n~naa
do not arise by 'wanting to know' with attachment.
  From the beginning one has to remember that they cannot be induced,
that they only arise because of the right conditions. Is this
attitude not different from the scientist who wants to know more
about the atoms? You cannot compare the two fields.
Nina.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Connie -

In a message dated 3/1/07 12:14:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
connieparker@... writes:

> Maybe I'm eroto-phobic.  As for the Death Train, if we die when
> we're all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the
> texts say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or hell
> realms.
>
======================
        Lots of humans heading for warrens or for hell, Connie! ;-)
        Ya know, the human realm is said to be the most auspicious for
progress on the path, but without sex, there would be no humans. (Not too many
virgin
births reported these days!) You might note, also, that sexual relations are
not proscribed for laypersons. (No pun here, Connie! ;-)

With metta,
Howard, getting some posting in before leaving for the airport

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)



**************************************
  AOL now offers free email to everyone.
  Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 3/1/07 6:10:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

> Hi Howard,
> --------
> So, Nina, what you believe to be the case is fact, and the quarks and
> so on of the physicists are not? I don't know how you know that. To
> me it
> makes more sense to say I believe something to be the case rather
> than I know it
> to be so when, in fact, I don't really know it to be so.
> -------
> N: I study the Tipataka and Commentaries and I have confidence in
> them. What is taught in these texts I find very reasonable, it makes
> sense to me.

--------------------------------------------
Howard:
        I have confidence in it as well, in part due to my experience, but
mostly due to what I consider plausible belief. I cannot claim to *know*,
however, and thus cannot "state as fact". We do not interpret all of what we
read in
the same way, though.
--------------------------------------------

> I do not know anything about physics, but this cannot be compared to
> the Dhamma. Physics do not lead to liberation.

------------------------------------------
Howard:
        Nor just reading the tipitaka and discussing it, IMO. That is just the
necessary beginning.
        Reading of the fleeting, impersonal, conditioned, ghostlike muons and
quarks isn't different from reading over the lists of the fleeting,
impersonal, conditioned, ghostlike rupas, especially provided that rupas are
viewed as
elementary particles of matter.
        I think it is an error to view rupas as comparable to the elements of
particle physics, though the Abhidhamma, or at least some interpretations of
Abhidhamma, do view them as such. They need to be viewed, I believe, as
phenomenological events, as constituting the physical content of consciousness.
They,
and mental operations, alone and in aggregation, are what are taken for self
- they form the matrix of our seemingly very personal, but actually quite
impersonal, reality. Nobody takes molecules, atoms, electrons, muons, quarks,
and
strings personally, but folks do take such experiences as hardness, itches,
warmth, sights, sounds, and so on, quite personally.
--------------------------------------------



> I would rather replace the word belief by having confidence in.
> Confidence, saddhaa is a sobhana cetasika, arising with sobhana
> cittas. Thus, it is wholesome confidence, not blind faith. It is
> based on understanding, even if this understanding is still
> intellectual understanding, not yet insight, direct understanding.
> ---------
> H: Now, I happen to believe in rupas also, Nina, very much so. But I
> take
> them to be elements of experience - physical experience, and not
> liitle bits
> of material.
> ------
> N: Rupas are elements and they can be objects experienced by citta
> which is also an element. Element means: a reality devoid of self.
> Physical experience is not so clear: an experience is not physical,
> it is nama. But you mean: experience of physical phenomena.
> -------
>
> H: For a science of materials I'd sooner turn to the chemists and
> physicists circa 2007.
> But the main point of my question is how studying about rupas as
> opposed to subatomic particles is particularly suited to leading
> towards awakening
> and liberation. The subatomic particles of physics are every bit as
> anicca,
> sankhata, and anatta as are the rupas.
> -------------------------------------
> N: Science has another angle, see above. Why not be in comformity
> with the texts that teach us about nama and rupa? Read again the
> “Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint” (Middle
> Length Sayings I, no. 28) where we read that SĂĄriputta taught the
> monks about the four Great Elements. We read about the element of
> earth or solidity, which is translated here as “extension”:

-----------------------------------------
Howard:
        I've explained above that I think that rupas are quite different from
the particles of the physicists. But there is a similarity in terms of anicca
and anatta. If rupas are thought of as material elements that share properties
with the theorized particles of particle physics, then reading about the
ephemeral aspect of one is no more useful than reading about the ephemeral
aspect
of the other. My point is that rupas, being experiential realities, not
particulate matter, can, by following the Buddha's training, come to have their
nature be directly known by with wisdom.
------------------------------------------

>
> <....And what, your reverences, is the element of extension? The
> element of extension may be internal, it may be external. And what,
> your reverences, is the internal element of extension? Whatever is
> hard, solid, is internal, referable to an individual and derived
> therefrom, that is to say: the hair of the head, the hair of the
> body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones,
> kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary,
> stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is
> internal....>
> Note, there is internal solidity and external solidity.
> ----------
>
> >Take hardness, the element of solidity that appears through the
> >bodysense whenever we touch something hard. We can learn that in the
> >ultimate sense there is not a hard thing, and there is no body. There
> >is just the contact of element on element.
> >At each moment all the rupas of the body arise, due to the four
> >factors and then they fall away, there is nothing left of them.
> >
> ---------------------------------------
> Howard:
> Do you observe this falling away and replacement? We read that this
> happens, just as we read that to be so for the subatomic particles.
> Has any of
> such reading *shown* you the radical impermanence of phenomena? Do
> you expect
> it to?
> ---------------------------------------
> N: Not yet, but I have confidence that this is the right way. If the
> right way is developed it will surely lead to such result.

------------------------------------------
Howard:
        *What* is the right way? Reading & thinking over?
-------------------------------------------

> ---------
> But >
> >rupas are replaced by new rupas and then our body seems such a solid
> >thing that remains. In reality there is nothing left when at each
> >moment each rupa falls away. This can be realized through the
> >development of insight.
> >We see people walking and moving their hands, and it is because of
> >sa~n~na that we perceive this. In reality at each splitsecond all
> >rupas fall away, nothing is left.
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> Yes, yes - I believe this too. Belief is just belief.
> --------
> N: Again, shall we replace belief by confidence. And this should not
> be unwarranted. Based on thorough study and consideration of the
> entire Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included.

----------------------------------------------
Howard:
        I very strongly disagree that this is the teaching of the Buddha. This
is just the path of the scholar. It's a nice path, wholesome - but, in
itself, no more than that.
-----------------------------------------------

> -----------------------------------------
> >
> >Molecules do not have characteristics that can be directly
> >experienced, knowing about them does not lead to detachment. One can
> >think about them, but thinking is only thinking.
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> Do you directly experience rupas? I know you believe they can be
> experienced, somehow. Actually, subatomic particles can in a way be
> experienced.
> -------------------------------------------
> N: Note: I mean experienced by kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa.
> We all experience hardness, but not necessarily by pa~n~naa. It is
> experienced by the citta that is body-consciousness, and after that
> kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. There can be akusala cittas
> with ignorance that experience hardness.
> The characteristics of rupa can be gradually understood and this
> leads to detachment. This is different from looking at subatomic
> particles. Is this done with understanding and detachment? The goal
> is quite different.
> ----------
> =====================
> H:The point of my posts on this is twofold: 1) Belief is just belief,
> and 2) Knowing does not come about just on the basis of belief.
> -------
> N: Confidence which is kusala and which is strengthened by
> understanding.
> When one has confidence in the teachings one will study and consider
> more what is taught. One will also understand that sati and pa~n~naa
> do not arise by 'wanting to know' with attachment.
> From the beginning one has to remember that they cannot be induced,
> that they only arise because of the right conditions. Is this
> attitude not different from the scientist who wants to know more
> about the atoms? You cannot compare the two fields.

----------------------------------------
Howard:
        I agree that they cannot be compared. We disagree as to the reason and
as to the significance.
-----------------------------------------

> Nina.
>

======================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)



**************************************
  AOL now offers free email to everyone.
  Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina,

Thanks for your reply.  I'll just add some from the 2001-10-27-b,
clarifying what we are discussing:

Kh. Sujin:  "... because its so short and we do not have time to think
which doorway but since it has to be through sense-door otherwise
ruupa cannot appear ... because you ... kusala with pa~n~naa can arise
through sense-door, not only mind-door, but when and how ... without
awareness how can there be the right understanding of ruupa ...
without the right understanding through vipassaana-~naana through the
mind-door its impossible to have the right understanding of ruupa as
ruupa ... vipassaana-~naana can understand the characteristics of
naama and ruupa ... the other doorway can have the kusala with
pa~n~naa at the sense-door ...

Q:  "... the sense-door ... then mind-door but then ruupa has fallen
away...how can mind-door experience the ruupa?

Kh. Sujin:  "See but its there ... its gone but its there because the
ruupa does not arise just once [in a door-way] - many, many, many all
the time ... Can we have precise understanding [of} which doorway
right now?   Mind-door or sense-door.  But the development of
understanding from the very beginning - one cannot understand the
distinction between the two - mind-door process and sense-door process
  but there can be the development of the understanding of the
characteristic of naama as not-me and ruupa as not me or mine.
Because usually there is seeing and there is ignorance about it ...
but pa~n~na and awareness can arise after seeing...not thinking about
concept.  Instead of thinking about concept, right awareness is there
very naturally and there can be the development of understanding
little by little.  [There is] no time to think about which doorway.
So...after the sense-door has fallen away and then mind-door process
must have the same object - the same but not the one...it cannot be
the one, but it can be the same...Right now - its exactly like this
moment.  Anything must be like this moment that pa~n~na can understand
it...its like two sheets of paper...very thin paper...when you drop
water - a drop of water - it goes through [to the] second one
instantly.  Can you stop it?  Can you help it not to be like that?  It
has to be like that...the object has to be exactly the same as the
sense-door process...

Q:  "At that moment of the mind-door process is it true to say that
the object is a concept, or a reality, or something that is neither a
concept or a reality?

Kh. Sujin: "... Whenever paramattha dhamma is not the object it must
be concept which is the object ... but when there is no concept just
the characterisic of reality appears succeeded because there is not
just one process of reality that appears and then is completely gone
... exactly the same object like this but there is nobody only the
dhaatu- that dhaatu experiences object like this no suppression
between the sense-door and the mind door by thinking at all it just
experiences... when we talk about concept, if there is the
characteristic [that] succeeds just suddenly instantly and it is the
characteristic of paramattha dhamma its said that it is paramattha
dhamma and it is also present too because its not the thought about
paramattha dhamma but its the moment when paramattha dhamma succeeds
the appearance from sense-door to mind-door and now ... the ruupa
which has arisen has fallen away so it must be the new one all the
time but we cannot know which one is the object of awareness but the
characteristic of it appears so it can be this one or that one or what
ones?...not only one ruupa appears now..."

How did you understand the distinction that was made between the
experience of ruupa at the sense-door, and the subsequent experience
of the characteristic of that ruupa (but not that ruupa) at the
mind-door?

I like the below:

N: "... hard is hard, no matter there is no sati or there is sati.
When there is awareness hardness is still hardness, but then hardness
can be known as a reality, and the experience can be known as another
type of reality."

In other words hardness - ruupa - exists whether it becomes an object
of sati or not.

Sincerely,

Scott.

Dear Friends,
Bhaddaa of the Kaapilaas, part two of four:

Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.3.244-313)-
"Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu;
ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako.
"Tadaahu ha.msavatiya.m, videho naama naamato;
se.t.thii pahuutaratano, tassa jaayaa ahosaha.m.
"Kadaaci so naraadicca.m, upecca saparijjano;
dhammamassosi buddhassa, sabbadukkhabhayappaha.m.
"Saavaka.m dhutavaadaana.m, agga.m kittesi naayako;
sutvaa sattaahika.m daana.m, datvaa buddhassa taadino.
"Nipacca sirasaa paade, ta.m .thaanamabhipatthayi.m;
sa haasayanto parisa.m, tadaa hi narapu"ngavo.

	 As it is said in the Apadaana:
		 One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named
Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born.
		 There was at that time a wealthy merchant named Videha who had many
jewels in Ha.msavatii. I was his wife.
		 One day, he went to the Sun Among Men with his retinue and heard the
Doctrine of the Buddha which gets rid of all misery and fear.
		 The Leader praised a disciple as being foremost among those who speak of
asceticism. Having heard this, he [my husband] gave a seven-day gift to
the unique Buddha.
		 He fell down head first at the feet [of the Buddha] and aspired to that
position. He, that Bull Among Men, gladdened the hearts of the assembly.


"Se.t.thino anukampaaya, imaa gaathaa abhaasatha;
lacchase patthita.m .thaana.m, nibbuto hohi puttaka.
"Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo;
gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati.
"Tassa dhammesu daayaado, oraso dhammanimmito;
kassapo naama gottena, hessati satthu saavako.
"Ta.m sutvaa mudito hutvaa, yaavajiiva.m tadaa jina.m;
mettacitto paricari, paccayehi vinaayaka.m.
"Saasana.m jotayitvaana, so madditvaa kutitthiye;
veneyya.m vinayitvaa ca, nibbuto so sasaavako.

		 Out of sympathy for the merchant, [the Buddha] spoke these verses: "You
will obtain the desired position. Be one who becomes quenched, my son.
		 "One hundred thousand world cycles from now, there will be reborn in the
world the Teacher who will be named Gotama through his lineage, a
descendant of the Okkaaka clan.
		 "At that time there will be a disciple of the Teacher named Kasapa who
will be an heir to the Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine."
		 As soon as he heard this, he was filled with appreciative joy, and then,
thoughout his life, he served the Leader, the Conqueror, with the
requisites, his heart full of loving kindness.
		 He [the Buddha] caused the teachings to shine forth, crushed the members
of wrong sects, and instructed those whe were amenable to instruction. He,
together with his disciples, was quenched.

"Nibbute tamhi lokagge, puujanatthaaya satthuno;
~naatimitte samaanetvaa, saha tehi akaarayi.
"Sattayojanika.m thuupa.m, ubbiddha.m ratanaamaya.m;
jalanta.m satara.msi.mva, saalaraaja.mva phullita.m.
"Sattasatasahassaani, paatiyo tattha kaarayi;
na.laggii viya jotantii, rataneheva sattahi.
"Gandhatelena puuretvaa, diipaanujjalayii tahi.m;
puujanatthaaya mahesissa, sabbabhuutaanukampino.
"Sattasatasahassaani, pu.n.nakumbhaani kaarayi;
rataneheva pu.n.naani, puujanatthaaya mahesino.

		 After the Chief of the World was quenched, he [my husband] brought
together his friends and relatives in order to pay homage to the Teacher.
		 He built a monument that was seven leagues high, made of jewels shining
like the sun or like a saala tree in bloom.
		 He made seven hundred thousand bowls there that shone with the seven
jewels just like a fire of reeds.
		 He filled lamps with scented oil that blazed up there to pay homage to
the Great Sage, the One Who Had Sympathy for All Beings.
		 He made seven hundred thousand full jars, full of jewels to pay homage
to the Great Sage.


"Majjhe a.t.tha.t.thakumbhiina.m, ussitaa ka~ncanagghiyo;
atirocanti va.n.nena, saradeva divaakaro.
"Catudvaaresu sobhanti, tora.naa ratanaamayaa;
ussitaa phalakaa rammaa, sobhanti ratanaamayaa.
"Virocanti parikkhittaa, ava.ta.msaa sunimmitaa;
ussitaani pa.taakaani, ratanaani virocare.
"Suratta.m sukata.m citta.m, cetiya.m ratanaamaya.m;
atirocati va.n.nena, sasa~njhova divaakaro.
"Thuupassa vediyo tisso, haritaalena puurayi;
eka.m manosilaayeka.m, a~njanena ca ekika.m.

		 He erected golden floral tiers in the middle of every group of eight
jars, and they outshone the splendour of the autumn sun.
		 The portals of the four gateways shone, made of jewels. Delightful slabs
erected there shone, made of jewels.
		 Well-made ornaments all around were shining. Flags erected on high and
jewels were shining.
		 The shrine was very colourful, variegated, made of jewels. Through it's
splendour it outshone [all else] as the sun does the moon.
		 The monument had three ledges.  One he filled with yellow orpiment, one
with red arsenic, and one with collyrium.


"Puuja.m etaadisa.m ramma.m, kaaretvaa varavaadino;
adaasi daana.m sa"nghassa, yaavajiiva.m yathaabala.m.
"Sahaava se.t.thinaa tena, taani pu~n~naani sabbaso;
yaavajiiva.m karitvaana, sahaava sugati.m gataa.
"Sampattiyonubhotvaana, devatte atha maanuse;
chaayaa viya sariirena, saha teneva sa.msari.m.
"Ekanavutito kappe, vipassii naama naayako;
uppajji caarudassano, sabbadhammavipassako.
"Tadaaya.m bandhupatiya.m, braahma.no saadhusammato;
a.d.dho santo gu.nenaapi, dhanena ca suduggato.

		 Having made such a delightful offering to the Best of Speakers, he gave
gift[s] to the Order, as much as he could for as long as he lived.
		 Now having done all of those meritorious deeds together with that
merchant as long as we lived, I went with him to a happy existence.
		 We enjoyed both divine and human blissful states. I journeyed on with
him like a shadow accompanying a body.
		 Ninety-one aeons ago, the leader named Vipassi was born, of delightful
appearance, clearly seeing all phenomena.
		 At that time, he [my former husband] was a highly honoured brahman in
Bandhumatii, rich in peaceful qualities but very poor in wealth.


"Tadaapi tassaaha.m aasi.m, braahma.nii samacetasaa;
kadaaci so dijavaro, sa"ngamesi mahaamuni.m.
"Nisinna.m janakaayamhi, desenta.m amata.m pada.m;
sutvaa dhamma.m pamudito, adaasi ekasaa.taka.m.
"Gharamekena vatthena, gantvaaneta.m sa mabravi;
anumoda mahaapu~n~na.m, dinna.m buddhassa saa.taka.m.
"Tadaaha.m a~njali.m katvaa, anumodi.m supii.nitaa;
sudinno saa.tako saami, buddhase.t.thassa taadino.
"Sukhito sajjito hutvaa, sa.msaranto bhavaabhave;
baaraa.nasipure ramme, raajaa aasi mahiipati.

		 And at that time I was the wife of that brahman. I was even minded. One
day, he met that Excellent Brahman, the Great Sage.
		 [The Great Sage] was seated with a group of people, teaching the undying
place. When he heard the Doctrine, [the brahman] was delighted and gave a
single robe.
		 He went home with [only] one article of clothing and said to me,
"Rejoice in our great merit! A robe has been given to the Buddha."
		 Then I paid homage and rejoiced, well pleased, "O husband, that robe was
well given to that venerable one, the Best of Buddhas."
		 Happy and joyous, we journeyed on in various existences. In the
delightful city of Baaraa.nasii, he was the king, the lord of the earth.


"Tadaa tassa mahesiiha.m, itthigumbassa uttamaa;
tassaati dayitaa aasi.m, pubbasnehena bhattuno.
"Pi.n.daaya vicarante te, a.t.tha paccekanaayake;
disvaa pamudito hutvaa, datvaa pi.n.da.m mahaaraha.m.
"Puno nimantayitvaana, katvaa ratanama.n.dapa.m;
kammaarehi kata.m patta.m, sova.n.na.m vata tattaka.m.
"Samaanetvaana te sabbe, tesa.m daanamadaasi so;
so.n.naasane pavi.t.thaana.m, pasanno sehi paa.nibhi.
"Tampi daana.m sahaadaasi.m, kaasiraajenaha.m tadaa;
punaaha.m baaraa.nasiya.m, jaataa kaasikagaamake.

		 At that time, I was his chief queen, the most important among a crowd of
women. And I was very dear to him because of my husband's previous love
[in former lives].
		 He saw eight Pacceka Leaders [Buddhas] going on their alms round.
Delighted, he gave them very expensive alms food.
		 Then he invited them [for a meal]. He had a jewel pavilion built and had
a metal worker make golden bowl[s] that were indeed very pleasing.
		 He brought them all together, and favourably disposed, gave them a gift
with his own hand. They sat on golden seats.
		 At that time, I gave that gift together with the king of Kaasi. Then I
was born in Baaraa.nasii in the village of Kaasika.


"Ku.tumbikakule phiite, sukhito so sabhaatuko;
je.t.thassa bhaatuno jaayaa, ahosi.m supatibbataa.
"Paccekabuddha.m disvaana, kaniyassa mama bhattuno;
bhaaganna.m tassa datvaana, aagate tamhi paavadi.m.
"Naabhinandittha so daana.m, tato tassa adaasaha.m;
ukhaa aaniya ta.m anna.m, puno tasseva so ]adaa.
"Tadanna.m cha.d.dayitvaana, du.t.thaa buddhassaha.m tadaa;
patta.m kalalapu.n.na.m ta.m, adaasi.m tassa taadino.
"Daane ca gaha.ne ceva, apace padusepi ca;
samacittamukha.m disvaa, tadaaha.m sa.mviji.m bhusa.m.

		 He was born with his brother in a prosperous, happy family, and I was
the very devoted wife of the elder brother.
		 I saw a Pacceka Buddha and gave him my younger brother's portion of
food. After I gave it, returned, and I told him.
		 He did not approve of that gift. Then I brought the cooking pot and gave
him the food and he gave it to him again.
		 I threw that food away, and being evil, I then gave the Buddha a bowl
full of mud, to him, the Unique One.
		 And he took the gift, both the pure and the impure. Seeing his calm mind
and face then, I was exceedingly stirred.
===
to be continued,
connie

Hi All

I have received the following message from lurking member Tom W:

****************************
We have a little study group here in New Hampshire and the members
frequently refer to your Glossary of Pali Terms. One challenge is the
pronunciation for farangs*. So I am looking for a volunteer to record
the most common words. I will edit the recording and link them to the
document.  http://www.westheimers.net/dsg/Pali%20Terms.htm

What do you think?
Is this something that you might be interested in doing?  I would do the
audio editing and linking, so all one would need to do is read the words
into a digital recorder or a computer.

regards
Tom
****************************
* 'Farangs' = Thai vernacular for 'foreigners' (esp. westerners)

Would anyone like to volunteer to record the Pali terms for Tom?  I
don't feel confident about this myself.

I believe there are Pali speech/pronunciation files available on the
internet.  Does anyone know if these would be of any help to Tom's group?

Jon

Hi, Howard,
I hope the family is all doing well.

C: Maybe I'm eroto-phobic.  As for the Death Train, if we die when we're
all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the texts
say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or hell
realms.
======================
   H:    Lots of humans heading for warrens or for hell, Connie! ;-)
====
C:    Yes.  Fairly safe bet any non-ariyan is on the road... not
necessarily a straight-shot, but sooner or later.
====
H:    Ya know, the human realm is said to be the most auspicious for
progress on the path, but without sex, there would be no humans. (Not too
many virgin births reported these days!)
====
C:  ;) but  ew, careful!  you could be misread as advocating sexual
activity only for it's rebirth linking function (which might offend some
ppl); or even that anyone with a hint of right view Should have kids, the
more the merrier!
I'm just saying that there's not likely to be a lot of right view involved
in the mess... in the long haul, IMO, it's not the type of bodily conduct
that is to be cultivated (MN 114); of course, we start where we are &
simply saying No without any understanding doesn't lead in the right
direction, either.
=========
H:  You might note, also, that sexual relations are not proscribed for
laypersons. (No pun here, Connie! ;-)
====
C:  ;) Which is not to say they're prescribed, either.  (As an aside, is
meditation prescribed for laity & if so, what type(s)? ;))
Best wishes,
connie

Hi Jon,

> I believe there are Pali speech/pronunciation files available on the
> internet. Does anyone know if these would be of any help to Tom's
> group?

There are two online resources that may help:

Wav files showing the pronunciation of the Pali vowels and consonants:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali/pali-alpha2.htm

Wav files showing the pronunciation of a selection of words (a few of
which are also on Tom's list):
http://www.aimwell.org/Help/Pali/pali.html

In both cases the pronunciation is modern Sinhala-style.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

Hi Nina

In a message dated 3/1/2007 3:36:34 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

There  is nothing left of that lute.
Seeing falls away, and I do not see a gradual  change of seeing.
Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. There is no  time for a
gradual change.
--------

TG:  I fail to see how the Sutta on the lute backs this up one  iota.  There
are various suttas where the Buddha speaks about gradual  change...  A ship
being slow withered away due to weathering.  A  mountain slowing declining in
height generating after generation, the Adze  handle gradually wearing away over
the course of time, a mountain crag being  worn away by a kasi cloth over
periods of time measured in terms  of aeons (different than the first mountain
analogy.)

I can't think of one sutta that backs up the "arising and immediately
ceasing" outlook.  So far, your two Sutta examples don't in any way, yet  you
comment (indirectly) as if they do ... which is interesting.




TG: I personally think the above account of impermanence --  rupas
being replaced
by new rupas, etc. -- is just flat wrong and not  useful in applying
insight.
Also, it lacks a conditional component  which I think is
counterproductive
to insight.
------
N: Eyesense  falls away and is replaced, otherwise you would not be
seeing now. So long  as kamma produces eyesense in your life there are
conditions for seeing.  You do not create your own seeing, you do not
own it.

TG:   Kamma is not a "something" that produces eye sense  either.  It is
conditions that generate what arises and it is conditions  that disintegrate the
same.  Kamma is one of many conditions necessary for  eye sense.  Eye sense
varies IN ACCORDANCE to conditions.  I do not  consider it to be "popping on and
off."

The three sentences in your statement above are unrelated so its hard to
figure out what you're getting at.  At any rate, the last sentence is  hardly
something that someone would need to be trying to convince me of.



Concitions are being taught all the time, both for namas and for
rupas. Also, when we realize that a reality that falls away falls
away  completely, helps us to have less conceit, clinging to my
important  personality.

TG:  I think it would be better to get rid of thinking of phenomena as
"realities" or "dhammas" and instead directly realize that all conditions,
experienced and otherwise, are empty of self or anything of "their" own.   They
are
resultants and echoes of "other" empty resultants/echoes.  They  are hollow of
essence, they are insubstantial, they are like phantoms, they are  like death,
they are affliction.


Even  when we understand this in theory, it
helps us to think in the correct  way. This can condition direct
understanding. We have to begin somewhere  and the right beginning,
correct intellectual understanding is what  supports the development
of insight later on. Gradually so! Don't you  think so?
TG:  Gradually?  Why would "understanding" be gradual from your  point of
view?  Would it not arise and then immediately cease???

At any rate, yes, correct intellectual understanding is crucial.  Now  as to
what that "correct understanding" is ... that is the matter we disagree on  to
some significant extent.  :-)  But, that's what makes it  interesting to
discuss with you and others.




Nina.


TG
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear friends,

We read in the above quoted sutta that Sĺriputta explained to the
monks about the internal liquid element (element of water):

.... Whatever is liquid, fluid, is internal, referable to an
individual or derived therefrom, that is to say: bile, phlegm, pus,
blood, sweat, fat, tears, serum, saliva, mucus, synovial fluid, urine
or whatever other thing is liquid, fluid, is internal....

When we shed tears or swallow saliva we can be reminded that what we
take for the fluid of “my body” are only elements devoid of self.
Sĺriputta reminded the monks that the external liquid element can
become agitated and can bring destruction to villages, towns,
districts and regions, or that the water of the oceans may go down
and disappear. It is liable to change and it is impermanent. Both the
internal and the external liquid element are impermanent and not self.
As to the Element of Fire, heat or temperature (in Pĺli: tejo
dhĺtu),  the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 93) gives the following definition
of it [6] :

...The fire element has the characteristic of heat. Its function is
to mature (maintain). It is manifested as a continued supply of
softness [7] .

The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the
bodysense and it appears as heat or cold. Cold is a lesser degree of
heat. The element of heat accompanies all kinds of materiality that
arises, rúpas of the body and materiality outside. It maintains or
matures them. The element of heat is one of the four factors that
produce rúpas of the body. At the first moment of life kamma produces
the rebirth-consciousness and also rúpa. After that temperature also
starts to produce rúpas of the
body [8] . Rúpas which are materiality outside such as those of a
plant or a rock are produced solely by temperature.
We read in the above quoted sutta that Sĺriputta explained to the
monks about the internal element of heat:

... Whatever is heat, warmth, is internal, referable to an individual
and derived therefrom, such as by whatever one is vitalized, by
whatever one is consumed, by whatever one is burnt up, and by
whatever one has munched, drunk, eaten and tasted that is properly
transmuted (in digestion), or whatever other thing is heat, warmth,
is internal....
-------
footnotes:
6. See also Dhammasangaůi § 648 and Atthasĺliní II, Book II, Part
I,    Ch III, 332.

7. The Atthasĺliní (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 332) states that it
has “the gift of softening (co-existent realities) as manifestation”.
8. This will be explained later on.

********
Nina.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear friends,

Letter about Vipassanĺ  9

the Hague,

July 29, 1991

Do we really want to be aware of attachment, lobha, when it appears?
We may know that whatever reality appears can be object of awareness,
but how is the application of this knowledge? We dislike our
defilements and we would rather be free from them, but we forget that
the only way to eventually eliminate them is to be aware of them so
that they are known as they are. We read in "As it was
said" (Khuddaka Nikĺya, Itivuttaka, The Ones, Ch I, par. 9) that the
Buddha said:

"Monks, the man who does not understand and comprehend lust, who has
not detached his mind therefrom, who has not abandoned lust, can make
no growth in extinguishing dukkha. But, monks, he who does understand
and comprehend lust, who has detached his mind therefrom, who has
abandoned lust, can make growth in extinguishing dukkha."
This is the meaning of what the Exalted One said. Herein this meaning
is thus spoken.

By whatsoever lust inflamed
Beings to the ill-bourn go,
That lust, completely knowing it,
Those who have insight do reject.
Rejecting it, no more again
They come unto this world at all.
This meaning also was spoken by the Exalted One; so I have heard.

The same is said about ill-will, delusion, wrath, and spite. One may
believe that defilements can be abandoned without thoroughly knowing
them, but this is impossible. Is there not a tendency to flee from
one's defilements instead of facing them with courage and sincerity?
So long as there is ignorance our defilements are hidden, they are
covered up. When we listen to the Dhamma and consider it, and when we
begin to be aware we come to know more and more the defilements which
were hidden to us before. We come to know our true accumulations. As
we read in the sutta, they can only be eliminated by knowing them
with insight. So long as they are taken for self they can never be
eradicated.

******
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi KenH,

On 01/03/07, ken_aitch <ken_aitch@...> wrote:
> Hi Herman,
>

> H: > A well-documented phenomenon amongst Western educated classes is
> a
> decline in birth rates. It may not be all down to having acquired an
> understanding of the evolved / conditioned nature of the world, but
> certainly there is an increasing realisation amongst educated folks
> that by wilfully abstaining from creating new life, there is the
> abstaining from creating new suffering and new evil.
> ----------------------
>
> Creating? Are you suggesting they have control over other people's
> vipaka? BTW, I am one of those `no children by choice' types, so
> thanks for the compliment.
>

Before a man and a woman have a baby there is no other people. Anyway,
you will always have my admiration for the choice you have made, and
the control you exercise in maintain ing that intention.


>  -----------------------
> H: > As for attaining enlightenment, and permanently destroying a
> capacity for evil, where does that happen?
> ------------------------
>
> It's in the teaching of Buddha Gotama.
>

Is any of it rubbing off, anywhere? In a way that makes it different
and better and truer to the teachings of Jesus Christ or Ron L.
Hubbard?


> ------------------------
> <. . .>
> H: > These discussions have the same
> helpful effect on me, except I don't think in terms of right
> understanding. My methodology is more a negative one, I find out what
> is wrong understanding, what cannot be. I do not presuppose there to
> be an absolute right understanding of the way things are. But there
> are many ways that things are not, and the discussions here certainly
> help bring that to light.
> -------------------------
>
> You are saying there can be wrong understanding, but not right
> understanding. That's a strange logic.
>
> ---------------

It is the logic of the scientific method. The scientific method does
not arrive at a body of absolute facts. One simply cannot know in a
strong sense the outcome of any experiement before it has been
conducted. Surely you acknowledge that in your own life you make
hypotheses all day long about what is possible, and then proceed to
test them? Do you know beforehand which wave is going to dump you?

> <. . .>
> H: > You still have not told me how illusion is distinguished from
> reality, and how that could occur in the framework of a present
> moment only.
> ----------------
>
> Actually I *have* told you – many times - and so have other DSG
> members. This negative methodology of yours is not working! I think
> you should try learning the Dhamma, and *then* decide what you think
> of it.
>

If you or other DSG members have told me, then it can't have
registered as being coherent. In the present moment there are only
paramattha dhammas. That's what I've been told. How on earth could any
of those be illusory, Ken? Yet you maintain the reality of illusion,
and it all must be coming from those paramattha dhammas, because
that's all there is, according to you.

> <. . .>
> H: > Seriously, you wouldn't dispute that
> your interpretations of the Theravadan canon are on the fringes of the
> mainstream, would you?
> ------------
>
> No, I wouldn't dispute that at all. K Sujin has pointed out that the
> Pali texts – including the ancient commentaries – are teaching
> something quite different from the Buddhism most people know today.
> She is right; there can be no doubt about it!
>

There can be no doubt about what is experienced. Blue was blue, anger
was anger, wet was wet. But doubt is the means whereby we come to know
things by reason. You do not know whether the next wave is going to
dump you or not, and that means that there is a degree of doubt. And
if you're game, then you go and test your belief/doubt. If the
Buddhism of K Sujin is beyond doubt, then it is worthless in your
life, because it cannot be tested and made true in your life.



Kind Regards



Herman

Hi All,

We are all familiar with the following, or something similar to it.

     I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...

        1. ...harming living beings.
        2. ...taking things not freely given.
        3. ...sexual misconduct.
        4. ...false speech.
        5. ...intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness.
        6. ...taking untimely meals.
        7. ...dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime.
        8. ...use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment.
        9. ...use of high seats.
       10. ...accepting gold or silver.

It will be obvious that the precepts are expressed negatively, they
are in the form of undertakings to NOT do certain things. One could
easily rephrase the above into positive statements, into things that
one is going to do e.g I will be nice to all beings, I will eat every
day at 11:53 am. But that is not how they are formulated. I think that
this is not co-incidental, but quite noteworthy.

The reason for these facts, IMO, is that CONTROL is a negative
function that is mindfully exercisable over already initiated
impulses, and CONTROL is a possibility in all mindful individuals.
There is the option for all mindful individuals to NOT convert any
impulse into action. If it were not so, the precepts would be a
useless piece of rhetoric.

On the other hand, the precepts are not written positively because no
particular consciousness can be made to arise. Having undertaken to be
nice to all beings at 8 am, that does not result in nice
consciousnesses arising at 5 pm, as we all know. But with the
spontaneous arising of an intention to be nice, the option exists to
convert that to action, or do nothing.

The Buddhist path is a negative path, it leads to cessation. The
Buddhist path is possible because it is possible to mindfully NOT do.



Kind Regards


Herman

Dear Nina and others,

My computer broke down last two days.
It is now at servicing center.
I will continue my posts as soon as I get it back.

Respectfully,
Han


--- Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> Dear Han,
> Here again it seems Susan thinks of having merit for
> oneself, like I
> said in the beginning. Also about selecting the
> receiver.
> Nina.




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com

Hi Nina


In a message dated 3/1/2007 12:42:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

Rúpas  which are materiality outside such as those of a
plant or a rock are  produced solely by temperature.



TG:   I seem to recall in either the Visuddhimagga or Manual of  Abhidhamma
that plants are mentioned as produced by temperature.  Are  non-living forms,
such as rocks, included as well?  I don't remember  that.  I'm just interested
for accuracy sake.

The entire idea though, of being solely produced by temperature, is
bordering on the ludicrous.

TG




<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Connie,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie <connieparker@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Howard,
> I hope the family is all doing well.
>
> C: Maybe I'm eroto-phobic.  As for the Death Train, if we die when
we're
> all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the
texts
> say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or
hell
> realms.
> ======================
>   H:    Lots of humans heading for warrens or for hell, Connie! ;-)
> ====
> C:    Yes.  Fairly safe bet any non-ariyan is on the road... not
> necessarily a straight-shot, but sooner or later.
> ====
> H:    Ya know, the human realm is said to be the most auspicious
for
> progress on the path, but without sex, there would be no humans.
(Not too
> many virgin births reported these days!)
> ====
> C:  ;) but  ew, careful!  you could be misread as advocating
sexual
> activity only for it's rebirth linking function (which might offend
some
> ppl); or even that anyone with a hint of right view Should have
kids, the
> more the merrier!
> I'm just saying that there's not likely to be a lot of right view
involved
> in the mess... in the long haul, IMO, it's not the type of bodily
conduct
> that is to be cultivated (MN 114); of course, we start where we are
&
> simply saying No without any understanding doesn't lead in the
right
> direction, either.
> =========
> H:  You might note, also, that sexual relations are not proscribed
for
> laypersons. (No pun here, Connie! ;-)
> ====
> C:  ;) Which is not to say they're prescribed, either.


As I was writing to Herman, aversion toward sexuality is not the
proper way to follow the Buddha's teaching.  Those who have knowledge
of the Four Noble Truths see sexuality as providing very little
pleasure, while those who do not see sexuality as very pleasurable.
In other words, those who have wisdom have no interest in sexuality-
it doesn't hold any pleasure for them.  However, they don't have an
aversion to sexuality- thinking that sexuality is dirty or wrong.  As
a householder, it isn't beneficial, natural, or necessary to reject
one's sexuality.  Additionally, sexuality doesn't send one to the
hell or animal realms (I'm not sure where you get that idea).  Those
with very strong libidos can go to the diva realms when they die;
where one ends up is dependent on morality not sense pleasure.  In
Buddhism, enjoying a chocolate cake and enjoying sex are really no
different- they are both sense pleasures.  But stealing a chocolate
cake to enjoy or committing adultery (stealing someone else's
companion) to enjoy are wrong and condemned by the Buddha.

This is a confusing matter because Buddhist monks and nuns are
required to be celibate, while householders are not.  The question
may arise: If householders can follow the Buddha's path and still
have sex, why can't Buddhist monks and nuns?  Actually, that very
issue did arise in the beginning of the Sangha.  One monk declared
that even though the Buddha said monks shouldn't have sex, there is
really nothing wrong with monks having sex.  Here is what the
commentary has to say about this incident:

"Things called "obstructions" (antaraayikaa dhammaa). Comy gives here
a list of ideas and actions that obstruct either heavenly rebirth or
final deliverance or both. Ari.t.tha, so says Comy being a learned
exponent of the Teaching, was quite familiar with most of
these "obstructions"; but, being unfamiliar with the Code of
Discipline (Vinaya), he conceived the view that sex indulgence was
not necessarily an obstruction for a monk. Ari.t.tha is said to have
used a rather sophistic argument, saying, "If some of the five sense
enjoyments are permissible even for lay adherents who are stream-
enterers (sotaapanna), etc., why is an exception made as to the
visible shape, voice, touch, etc., of women?" According to Comy,
Ari.t.tha goes so far as to charge the Buddha with exaggerating the
importance of the first grave offence (paaraajikaa) for a monk (i.e.,
sexual intercourse), saying that the emphasis given to it is like the
effort of one who tries to chain the ocean."

The Buddha replies to Ari.t.tha by saying:

"Of whom do you know, foolish man, that I have taught to him the
teaching in that manner? Did I not, foolish man, speak in many ways
of those obstructive things that they are obstructions indeed, and
that they necessarily obstruct him who pursues them? Sense desires,
so I have said, bring little enjoyment, and much suffering and
disappointment. The perils in them are greater. Sense desires are
like bare bones, have I said; they are like a lump of flesh... they
are like a snake's head, have I said. They bring much suffering and
disappointment. The perils in them are greater. But you, O foolish
man, have misrepresented us by what you personally have wrongly
grasped. You have undermined your own (future) and have created much
demerit. This, foolish man, will bring you much harm and suffering
for a long time."3
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel048.html#n
-3

Monks and nuns have a higher standard of behaviour so they cannot
indulge in sexual behaviour.  And this isn't necessarily easy for
them to do this either so there are many meditations to try to subdue
sexual desire (which can be dangerous in themselves).  If a monk or
nun can't subdue this sexual desire, he/she can disrobe and become a
householder- and there is no shame in that and former monk/nun isn't
bound for hell or animal realms.

(As an aside, is
> meditation prescribed for laity & if so, what type(s)? ;))

James: Yes.  Recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.
Such meditation is a necessary pre-requisite for stream-entry as it
builds Right View.

> Best wishes,
> connie
>

Metta,
James

Hi James,
I'll restate my 'die indulging, go to a hell or animal realm' thing. The
realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti citta.
Rebirth in the human realm (with the turtle/yoke simile for how precious
it is) depends on that being kusala. I don't think it's likely to be a
moment of dana, sila or bhavana if we die in the middle of being intent on
licking up chocolate frosting or what have you. I'd say that's part of the
'greater perils' in pursuing sensual desires, including but not at all
limited to sexual appetites.
peace,
connie

Dear Friends,
Bhaddaa of the Kaapilaas, part three of four:

"Puno patta.m gahetvaana, sodhayitvaa sugandhinaa,
pasannacittaa puuretvaa, saghata.m sakkara.m ada.m.
"Yattha yatthuupapajjaami, suruupaa homi daanato;
buddhassa apakaarena, duggandhaa vadanena ca.
"Puna kassapaviirassa, nidhaayantamhi cetiye;
sova.n.na.m i.t.thaka.m vara.m, adaasi.m muditaa aha.m.
"Catujjaatena gandhena, nicayitvaa tami.t.thaka.m;
muttaa duggandhadosamhaa, sabba"ngasusamaagataa.
"Satta paatisahassaani, rataneheva sattahi;
kaaretvaa ghatapuuraani, va.t.tiini ca sahassaso.

		 Then I took the bowl again, purified it with sweet-smelling oil, and
with my mind well disposed [towards him], I filled it with clarified
butter and gave him honour.
		 Wherever I was reborn, I was beautiful as a result of that gift, but
because of the injury to the Buddha, I have an evil-smelling mouth.
		 Again, when a shrine was being founded for the Hero Kassapa, I gave an
excellent golden tile, feeling appreciative joy.
		 I heaped up the four kinds of perfume with that tile, and I was freed
  from the defect of the bad smell, having perfectly balanced limbs.
		 I had seven thousand bowls made with the seven jewels and filled [them]
with clarified butter and thousands of wicks.


"Pakkhipitvaa padiipetvaa, .thapayi.m sattapantiyo;
puujanattha.m lokanaathassa, vippasannena cetasaa.
"Tadaapi tamhi pu~n~namhi, bhaaginiiyi visesato;
puna kaasiisu sa~njaato, sumittaa iti vissuto.
"Tassaaha.m bhariyaa aasi.m, sukhitaa sajjitaa piyaa;
tadaa paccekamunino, adaasi.m ghanave.thana.m.
"Tassaapi bhaaginii aasi.m, moditvaa daanamuttama.m;
punaapi kaasira.t.thamhi, jaato koliyajaatiyaa.
"Tadaa koliyaputtaana.m, satehi saha pa~ncahi;
pa~nca paccekabuddhaana.m, sataani samupa.t.thahi.

		 With a purified mind, I offered them, lit them, and place them in seven
rows to pay homage to the Protector of the World.
		 At that time, I especially shared in that meritorious deed. Again, he
[my former husband] was born among the citizens of Kaasi, renowned by the
name Sumitta.
		 I was his wife, happy , joyous and beloved. At that time, he gave a
thick shawl to a Pacceka Sage [Buddha].
		 I shared in that, too, rejoicing in the excellent gift. And again, he
was born in the kingdom of Kaasi of Koliyaa descent.
		 At that time, he and five hundred members of the Koliyaa clan served
five hundred Pacceka Buddhas.


"Temaasa.m tappayitvaana, adaasi ca ticiivare;
jaayaa tassa tadaa aasi.m, pu~n~nakammapathaanugaa.
"Tato cuto ahu raajaa, nando naama mahaayaso;
tassaapi mahesii aasi.m, sabbakaamasamiddhinii.
"Tadaa raajaa bhavitvaana, brahmadatto mahiipati;
padumavatiiputtaana.m, paccekamunina.m tadaa.
"Sataani pa~ncanuunaani, yaavajiiva.m upa.t.thahi.m;
raajuyyaane nivaasetvaa, nibbutaani ca puujayi.m.
"Cetiyaani ca kaaretvaa, pabbajitvaa ubho maya.m;
bhaavetvaa appama~n~naayo, brahmaloka.m agamhase.

		 He delighted them for three months and gave them sets of the three
robes. I was his wife at that time, following the path of meritorious
actions.
		 Then, passing away from there, he became King Nanda of great fame. I was
his chief queen also, surrounded by all sensual pleasures.
		 At that time, he was King Brahmadatta,the lord of the earth. At that
time, there were exactly five hundred Pacceka Sages [Buddhas], the sones
of Padumavatii, whom he served throughout his life. He had them dwell in
the royal garden, and I honoured those who were quenched.
		 And we both built shrines, went forth, developed the [four]
illimitables, and went to the Brahmaa realm.


"Tato cuto mahaatitthe, sujaato pipphalaayano;
maataa sumanadeviiti, kosigotto dijo pitaa.
"Aha.m madde janapade, saakalaaya puruttame;
kappilassa dijassaasi.m, dhiitaa maataa suciimati.
"Gharaka~ncanabimbena, nimminitvaana ma.m pitaa;
adaa kassapadhiirassa, kaamehi vajjitassama.m.
"Kadaaci so kaaru.niko, gantvaa kammantapekkhako;
kaakaadikehi khajjante, paa.ne disvaana sa.mviji.
"Gharevaaha.m tile jaate, disvaanaatapataapane;
kimii kaakehi khajjante, sa.mvegamalabhi.m tadaa.

		 Then passing away there, he was well born in Mahaatittha as
Pipphalaayana. He mother was Sumanadeviii, and his father was the brahman
Kosigotta.
		 In the magnificent town of Saakalaa in the district of Madda, I was
[born as] the daughter of the brahman Kapila, and my mother was Suciimatii.
		 He has a massive golden image of me made, and my father gave me to
Kassapa-Dhiira, who was devoid of sensual pleasures.
		 On day, that compassionate one went out looking at work [being done],
and he was stirred when he saw living creatures being eaten by crows, etc.
		 And [staying] at home then, I saw how sesame seeds growing there were
scorched by the heat of the sunand were being eaten by worms and crows,
and I becaue profoundly stirred.


"Tadaa so pabbajii dhiiro, aha.m tamanupabbaji.m;
pa~nca vassaani nivasi.m, paribbaajavate aha.m.
"Yadaa pabbajitaa aasi, gotamii jinaposikaa;
tadaaha.m tamupagantvaa, buddhena anusaasitaa.
"Na cireneva kaalena, arahattamapaapu.ni.m;
aho kalyaa.namittatta.m, kassapassa siriimato.
"Suto buddhassa daayaado, kassapo susamaahito;
pubbenivaasa.m yo vedi, saggaapaaya~nca passati.
"Atho jaatikkhaya.m patto, abhi~n~naavosito muni;
etaahi tiihi vijjaahi, tevijjo hoti braahma.no.

		 Then that wise one went forth, and I followed him in going forth. For
five years I lived by the vow of a wanderer.
		 Then Gotamii, the one who nourished the Conqueror, became one who went
forth. Then I went up to her, being urged on by the Buddha.
		 I attained Arahatship in a very short time. O how glorious, the state of
being the good friend of Kassapa!
		 Kassapa, the son, the heir of the Buddha, well concentrated, who knows
that he has lived before, and who sees heaven and hell, and who has
attained the destruction of rebirths, is a sage perfected in direct
knowledge. Because of these three knowledges, he is a brahman with triple
knowledge.

{RD notes: Mahaa-Kassapa became the leader of the Buddhist Order when the
Buddha had passed away. According to the Apadaana, Kassapa was identical
with Pippali, her husband, and had been her husband in three former lives.
Kassapa was either the family name or the personal name; Pippali either
the personal or the local name. See Dialogues, i. 193. His story is fully
told in the Commentary on the Psalms of the Brothers, and in that on Ang.
Nik., i. 23.}

===
to be continued,
connie

Hi Connie,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie <connieparker@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi James,
> I'll restate my 'die indulging, go to a hell or animal realm'
thing. The
> realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti
citta.
<snip>

Well, this is an entirely different subject.  I didn't know that you
were addressing the last moment of consciousness.  Unfortunately, I
am not very knowledgeable in this regard- this is more something that
Nina could address.  However, I would imagine that there are degrees
of kusala of that last moment of consciousness just as there are
different planes of existence.  But I do ask: Is this something that
we need to be extremely concerned about or have any control over?

Metta,
James

Hi Herman and all

>but is sexual activity anything anyone would dream of doing
> if one wasn't driven to it?

   You put that well. "Bumping uglies" is a phrase that I liked in a
Patsy Cline autobiography flick. All sense pleasures are sources of
sffering, that is Dhamma 101. We still enjoy them, and will, but
there is a certain sobering, a certain awareness that we are just
deepening our clinging to the khandas. This awareness needn't really
screw up one's sexuality or any other form of pleasant sensory
experiencing. But surely there's a sobering. For example, I don't
wear the latex batman suit anymore. I miss it, at times, but wise
reflection took it out of my life.

   A big challenge in wholesome married (or otherwsie monogamous)
life is to remain faithful *mentally* to one's spouse. You've seen
the studies that report that men spend something like 80% of their
mental down time fantasizing about sex. Overcoming that habit is an
interesting practice. At first it's very difficult, but then becomes
easier and easier, at least in my case.

   Not thinking about baseball is *much* more difficult for me now.

   Metta,

   Phil

Hi Sukin (and Ken)

    I just want to thank you for posting your comments. You know, I
can't afford to get into an ongoing discussion on these points now.
I hope I will someday because I have a lot of respect for the way
you think things through.

    Ken, same goes for you. There was a post I didn't get back to and
more to come that I won't get back to. But please keep posting
responses to my posts, and forgive me for not responding. (Or
reading them, to tell the truth! That just triggers my need to talk
back. Someday I'll have time, I hope!)

    Metta,

    Phil


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinder" <sukinder@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
>
>
> > * For example Phil described his 'sitting' experience.

Dear All,

Thanks for your help understanding more about Anger..

I am expecting more details about anger later from Phil, though
whenever he is free..

Actually there are situations at times when things don't work
accordingly, to the discipline… It is difficult and almost
impossible to handle the situation when you are bound to indulge
into the things, that you are actually not responsible of,
accountable of… And often repeatedly you have to face…

Maybe I have to practice the situation, maybe an opportunity… But it
is indeed very difficult to face so… But definitely, have been
feling better than before and coping with situation more wisely..

Further posts from anyone understanding Anger would be highly
appreciated..

Sincerely,

nitesh

Dear Nitesh, (& Phil)

--- kanchaa <kanchuu2003@...> wrote:
> I am expecting more details about anger later from Phil, though
> whenever he is free..
....
S: Ah yes and also those suttas to James, discussion with Jon, suttas on
some other topic (was it dana?)......we're all waiting for those magic
non-baseball obsessed free moments, Phil:-). (j/k, no need to respond!!)
....
> Further posts from anyone understanding Anger would be highly
> appreciated..
....
S: Nitesh, discover the joys of 'Useful Posts' in the files section of
DSG. Scroll down to 'Dosa' (anger...) and you'll find headings that look
like this:

*Dosa1 (aversion) & Domanassa (unpleasant mental feeling); Stress, see
also ‘Feelings’, 'Metta'

*Dosa2 - Controllable?

*Dosa3 - suttas

*Dosa4 - the story, Irritated by someone? <

Click on the numbers you find which will link you to past posts on the
topic of Anger saved from the archives.

Let us know if you find any of special assistance and re-quote if you feel
inclined. (Ignore any which seem to complicated or detailed for now.)

Metta,

Sarah
=======

Dear Han & all,

--- han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

> Dear Dhamma Friends,
>
> This is taken from “Dana: The Practice of Giving”
> compiled and edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
....
S: I'd just like to add a quote for the reason for dana as being given
first:
....
Bodhi:
>Besides appearing
> as the first topic in the graduated exposition of the
> Dhamma, the practice of giving also figures as the
> first of the three bases of meritorious deeds
> (punnakiriyavatthu), as the first of the four means of
> benefiting others (sangahavatthu), and as the first of
> the ten paramis or "perfections."
...
S: From B.Bodhi's translation of the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka ("A
Treatise on the Paaramis"):

"(iv) What is their sequence?

Here "sequence" means sequence of teaching. This sequence is rooted in the
order in which the paaramiis are initially undertaken, which in turn is
rooted in the order in which they are investigated.3 The quality which is
investigated and undertaken at the beginning is taught first. Therein,
giving is stated first, for giving assists (the development of) virtue and
is easy to practice. Giving accompanied by virtue is abundantly fruitful
and beneficial, so virtue is stated immediately after giving. Virtue
accompanied by renunciation... renunciation by wisdom... wisdom by
energy... energy by patience... patience by truthfulness... truthfulness
by determination... determination by loving-kindness... and
loving-kindness accompanied by equanimity is abundantly fruitful and
beneficial; thus equanimity is stated immediately after loving-kindness.
Equanimity is accompanied by compassion and compassion by equanimity.
(Someone may ask:) "How can the bodhisattvas, the great compassionate
ones, look upon living beings with equanimity?" Some teachers say:
"Sometimes they show equanimity toward living beings when it is necessary
to do so." But others say: "They do not show equanimity toward living
beings (as such), but toward the offensive actions performed by beings."

Another method (of explaining the sequence) may be given:

(1) Giving is stated at the beginning: (a) because it is common to all
beings, since even ordinary people practice giving; (b) because it is the
least fruitful; and (c) because it is the easiest to practice.

(2) Virtue is stated immediately after giving: (a) because virtue purifies
both the donor and the recipient; (b) to show that, while giving benefits
others, virtue prevents the affliction of others; (c) in order to state a
factor of abstinence immediately after a factor of positive activity; and
(d) in order to show the cause for the achievement of a favorable state of
future existence right after the cause for the achievement of wealth.
<.... and so on for the other paramis>
Thus the sequence of the paaramiis should be understood as explained."
....
S: More detail (including the order for the other paramis) can be found
here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html
.....
Metta,

Sarah
=======

Hi Nitesh (and Sarah at the end),

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kanchaa" <kanchuu2003@...>
wrote:

>
> Further posts from anyone understanding Anger would be highly
> appreciated..


Anger is one of the three poisons of the mind (the other two being
greed and delusion).  It is also called one of the evil roots as it
underlies many negative emotions and thoughts.  Everyone suffers from
anger until they reach the higher levels of enlightenment, but there
are ways of making sure that anger doesn't get too out of control:

The best way to purify the mind is through metta meditation which is
a form of samatha meditation.  If the idea of metta meditation
doesn't appeal to you, then you should begin to practice it
immediately!!  The Ego tries to protect itself by making metta
meditation (or any meditation for that matter) seem uninteresting and
pointless.

The Vism. by Buddhaghosa describes the practice of metta meditation
as proceeding in this manner:
The six stages of mettâ bhâvanâ meditation which are most commonly
found involves cultivating loving-kindness towards:
1. Yourself
2. A good friend
3. A 'neutral' person
4. A difficult person
5. All four
6. and then gradually the entire universe
Personally, I have tried this method and I find it silly, awkward,
and uneffective.  I find it best just to follow the instructions as
taught by the Buddha in the Metta Sutta:
…
Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born —
May all beings be at ease!
Let none deceive another,
Or despise any being in any state.
Let none through anger or ill-will
Wish harm upon another.
Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world.
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.
Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down
Free from drowsiness,
One should sustain this recollection.
This is said to be the sublime abiding.
By not holding to fixed views,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision,
Being freed from all sense desires,
Is not born again into this world.

So, it is relatively simple and straightforward, simply make the
mental wish "May all beings be at ease" or "May all beings be
happy".  Just keep repeating that to yourself to yourself and extend
the wish in all directions.  It may seem strange (almost like casting
a magic spell…but it isn't like that), but it will very quickly
lighten and focus the mind.

During my meditation sessions, I like to begin by focusing on the
breath and after I have focus on the breath, I practice the metta
meditation.  After I have extended metta in all directions, I go back
to focusing on the breath and I notice that the quality of attention
is greatly improved.  Also, the mental peace and clarity from the
sitting sessions lasts much longer throughout the day.  I can even
participate in DSG without completely losing my cool everytime! ;-))

Try it; you'll like it.

Metta,
James
PS. Sarah, as I told you before, you were right to tell KS that metta
cannot be generated when one is too tired.  As you will see from the
Metta Sutta, the Buddha said the same thing with the line "Free from
drowsiness".

Hi Herman,

-------------------
<. . .>
H: > Before a man and a woman have a baby there is no other people.
--------------------

At last count there were approximately seven billion other people.

Unless you are thinking of Adam and Eve(?)

-----------------------------
H: > Anyway, you will always have my admiration for the choice you
have made, and the control you exercise in maintaining that intention.
------------------------------

Thanks, but be careful how you talk - there may be young people
listening. I love being childless and have never wanted it any other
way. But, if told a young couple that, I would be in all sorts of
trouble with their parents.  By the same token, I wouldn't want them
blindly assuming childlessness was a terrible sacrifice.

All too often, young people are given to believe that parenthood is
their only reasonable option.  When it is too late some of them
secretly realize they were duped.

------------------------
<. ..>
KH: > > It's in the teaching of Buddha Gotama.
>

H: > Is any of it rubbing off, anywhere? In a way that makes it
different and better and truer to the teachings of Jesus Christ or
Ron L. Hubbard?
------------------------

The Buddhism that is most widely practised today is virtually
identical to all conventional) religions, so what would you expect?

Of course, the Dhamma that is found in the original ancient texts is
an entirely different matter. But, as you know, hardly anyone is
interested in it.

------------------------------------
<snip>
  ------------------------------------

I'll skip the bit about scientific methods; it's not likely to get us
anywhere.

---------------
KH: > > Actually, I *have* told you – many times - and so have other
DSG
> members. This negative methodology of yours is not working! I think
> you should try learning the Dhamma, and *then* decide what you think
> of it.

H: > If you or other DSG members have told me, then it can't have
registered as being coherent. In the present moment there are only
paramattha dhammas. That's what I've been told. How on earth could any
of those be illusory, Ken? Yet you maintain the reality of illusion,
and it all must be coming from those paramattha dhammas, because
that's all there is, according to you.
---------------

Now do you wish you had listened when you had the chance? :-)

--------------------------
<. . .>
H: > There can be no doubt about what is experienced. Blue was blue,
anger
was anger, wet was wet. But doubt is the means whereby we come to know
things by reason. You do not know whether the next wave is going to
dump you or not, and that means that there is a degree of doubt. And
if you're game, then you go and test your belief/doubt. If the
Buddhism of K Sujin is beyond doubt, then it is worthless in your
life, because it cannot be tested and made true in your life.
----------------------------

You have made your bed, and now you must lie in it. :-)

Ken H

Hi James,

--- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@...> wrote:
> Furthermore, Sariputta is quoted in the ancient texts at attaining
> nibbana while listening to a discourse and fanning the Buddha- he
> mentions nothing about attaining the eight jhanas in-between.  The
> sutta doesn't mention the listening to the discourse and the fanning
> and Sariputta mentions nothing about what is in the sutta.
> Obviously, the sutta is a fake.
.....
S: Just looking at the Anupada sutta because I didn't respond further, I
notice B.Bodhi gives some commentary notes which may be helpful as they
link the two suttas, I think:

First, a link to this sutta for others:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/111-anupad\
a-e.html

From the sutta (using Nanamoli/Bodhi transl):

1."During half a month, bhikkhus, Sariputta had insight into states one by
one as they occurred....."

note: "Anupadadhammavipassanaa. MA [S: the commentary] explains that he
developed insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative
attainments and the jhaana factors, as will be described. The two-week
period refered to fell from the time of Ven. Saariputta's ordination under
the Buddha to his attainment of arahantship while listening to the Buddha
explain the comprehension of feeling to Diighanakha (see MN 74.14)."
....
[S: after detailing the various jhanas and the higher development of
vipassana -insight into all states as they occurred]

2. "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Saariputta entered upon and abided
in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed
by his seeing with wisdom."

note: "MA offers the explanation of the passage, transmitted by 'the
elders of India': 'The Elder Saariputta cultivated serenity and insight in
paired conjunction and realised the fruit of non-returning. Then he
entered the attainment of cessation, and after emerging from it he
attained arahantship.' "

3. "He emerged mindful from that attainment [S: nirodha samupatta as just
referred to above]. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had
ceased and changed thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come
into being; having been, they vanish.' "

note: "Since there are no mental factors in the attainment of cessation,
MA says that 'these states' here must refer either to the states of
material form that were occurring while he attained cessation, or to the
mental factors of the preceding fourth immaterial attainment."
.....
S: With regard to the Abhidhamma details we discussed following your
introduction of a helpful article, it is an intricate matter.

B.Bodhi also gives this note which you might find interesting:

"The first five states in the list [S: in the sutta with regard to the
states in the first jhana] are the jhaana factors proper of the first
jhaana; the following states are additional components each performing
their individual functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis of
mental states into their components anticipates the methodology of the
Abhidhamma, and it is thus no coincidence that the name of Saariputta is
so closely linked witht the emergence of the Abhidhamma literature."
.....
S: I'm not sure if any of this is particularly relevant to your 'fake'
comments, but I'm adding it in case you're interested.

Metta,

Sarah
=======

Hi TG,

   -----
TG: TG: I fail to see how the Sutta on the lute backs this up one
iota. There
are various suttas where the Buddha speaks about gradual change... A
ship
being slow withered away due to weathering. A mountain slowing
declining in
height generating after generation, the Adze handle gradually wearing
away over
the course of time, a mountain crag being worn away by a kasi cloth over
periods of time measured in terms of aeons (different than the first
mountain
analogy.)
--------
N: This is to show how slowly defilements are eliminated, how
stubborn they are. They are similes, and another subject.
---------

TG:I can't think of one sutta that backs up the "arising and immediately
ceasing" outlook. So far, your two Sutta examples don't in any way,
yet you
comment (indirectly) as if they do ... which is interesting.
----------
N: The sound of a lute: it needs conditions, and when the conditions
fall away, also the conditioned  dhamma falls away. Sound cannot stay.
--------


TG: I personally think the above account of impermanence -- rupas
being replaced
by new rupas, etc. -- is just flat wrong and not useful in applying
insight.
Also, it lacks a conditional component which I think is
counterproductive
to insight.
------
N: See may answer before: Eyesense falls away and is replaced,
otherwise you would not be
seeing now. So long as kamma produces eyesense in your life there are
conditions for seeing. You do not create your own seeing, you do not
own it.
This is very helpful for insight.
-------

TG: Kamma is not a "something" that produces eye sense either. It is
conditions that generate what arises and it is conditions that
disintegrate the
same. Kamma is one of many conditions necessary for eye sense. Eye sense
varies IN ACCORDANCE to conditions. I do not consider it to be
"popping on and
off."
-------
N: Yes, this is understandable. That is because you do not see
impermanence as momentary.
--------

TG: I think it would be better to get rid of thinking of phenomena as
"realities" or "dhammas" and instead directly realize that all
conditions,
experienced and otherwise, are empty of self or anything of "their"
own. They are
resultants and echoes of "other" empty resultants/echoes. They are
hollow of
essence, they are insubstantial, they are like phantoms, they are
like death,
they are affliction.
-------
N: We speak of conditions in relation to realities. Realities are not
concepts. The 24 conditions pertain to realities, except concept that
can be object-condiiton for citta.
The three general characteristics pertain to realities, not concepts.
We may be thinking of the body that changes, but that is not the
direct experience of impermanence.
--------
<correct intellectual understanding is what supports the development
<of insight later on. Gradually so! Don't you think so?
TG: Gradually? Why would "understanding" be gradual from your point of
view? Would it not arise and then immediately cease???
--------
N: It arises and ceases but it is accumulated and thus when it arises
more often it grows.
--------
T.G.: TG: I seem to recall in either the Visuddhimagga or Manual of
Abhidhamma
that plants are mentioned as produced by temperature. Are non-living
forms,
such as rocks, included as well? I don't remember that. I'm just
interested
for accuracy sake.

The entire idea though, of being solely produced by temperature, is
bordering on the ludicrous.
---------
N: Plants are also non-living, they do not have jivitindriya ruupa.
They have no citta, commit no kamma.
The answer is: yes, the rupas we call rock are not produced by kamma,
citta, or nutrition, thus by the element of heat. The smallest unit
of rupa consists of eight rupas, including the four great element and
one among these is the Element of fire, heat. That produces other rupas.

*******
Nina.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Connie,

By way of circambulation, I do like your posts very much, I find them
very rich in association, they open up a million possibilities in
every line.

Having said that ...... :-)

On 02/03/07, connie <connieparker@...> wrote:
> Hi James,
> I'll restate my 'die indulging, go to a hell or animal realm' thing. The
> realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti citta.
> Rebirth in the human realm (with the turtle/yoke simile for how precious
> it is) depends on that being kusala. I don't think it's likely to be a
> moment of dana, sila or bhavana if we die in the middle of being intent on
> licking up chocolate frosting or what have you. I'd say that's part of the
> 'greater perils' in pursuing sensual desires, including but not at all
> limited to sexual appetites.
> peace,
> connie
>

In terms of citta, how is an animal or hell realm different to a human
or god realm?

Kind Regards


Herman