Dear Kashi,
Great to have your questions and comments. My computer
is getting fixed so I am just looking in on another
one at work and only have  a few minutes to use it.
So, very briefly,
--- "> It is very helpful also that participants use
Pali
> words here and
> there, I think this is important and provides a
> "link" to the
> teachings."
Glad you appreciate the pali. The meaning is always
more important than the technical terms but using the
Pali, once we get used to it helps the precision of
meaning. The English translations often have different
connoatations for different people.
>
> I would like to pose a few questions:
>
> 1) What is the difference between "contemplation"
> and "reflection"?
>
> 2) If there are differences, is reflection
> consumated to reveal
> another level of insight?

There are many, many levels of understanding both at
the theoretical and experiential level. The theory
assists undertsanding at the practical level and also
the practical makes the the theory much clearer.
>
> 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness
> arises...period and always..."
> is what someone recently said to me. My
> understanding is that
> delusion manifest primarily through perceptions;
> though,
> yes...without first having (contact -->)
> consciousness or "kindling"
> there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to
> mean "always")
> people born "deluded?"

The asava(latent unwholesome tendencies) are present
in all of us until they are finally eliminated by the
different path consciousness. But when there is kusal
citta at that moment the defilements are not apparent.
The path is a gradual one whereby first wrong view is
gradualy attenuated.
>
> Keep asking more questions and I am sure others have
comments also.
Best wishes
Robert

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> I would like to pose a few questions:
>
> 1) What is the difference between "contemplation" and "reflection"?


Kashi,

I don't know if this is logical to you, but to me reflection is when
I am reminded to study what concerns my own six dvara (sense doors)
and their aramana (objects), as opposed to studying abstract thoughts
and the world of pannati (or conventional terms).  Contemplation
seems to require more time and reasoning, which of course helps with
understanding the teachings, but not so much the study of the present
object appearing, whether nama and rupa, in other words the
application of the theories thought out and understood.  But this is
just my distinction, other people might not agree with this
terminology.  Even Reflection might seem lengthy to some people, so
that perhaps experiencing the reality of the instant to study its
true characteristics might be more precise.  Whatever terms help you
distinguish between thoughts and reasonings and understanding on the
intellectual level from sati itself, in other words, thoughts from
sati, you have the beginning of the accumulation of panna.  For
example, we learn that hearing is just a nama, what is heard is just
sound.  When we hear now do we clearly experience the hearing which
is so different from the seeing?  That sound is completely different
from sight?  Yet we see and hear all day long, thnking it is we who
hear and see, whereas we cannot control one or the other.  Nor can we
make them last, they appear and disappear according to conditions.

> 2) If there are differences, is reflection consumated to reveal
> another level of insight?

With panna, the study of realities as they truly are can lead you to
all levels of knowledge, respectively.

> 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness arises...period and
always..."
> is what someone recently said to me. My understanding is that
> delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; though,
> yes...without first having (contact -->) consciousness or
"kindling"
> there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to mean "always")
> people born "deluded?"

To  a certain degree, because if panna were strong enough, all ties
to the next life would be severed and one would not be reborn ever
again.  The fact that we are born at all shows that we still have
clinging to life, to seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling
body sense contact and even pleasant thoughts.  Most people have
heard that Nibbana is a wonderous thing and want it but few realize
that complete extinction is not like being born in the heavenly
planes with all the pleasurable objects and none of the sufferings,
but something above and beyond that: absolute non-existence, never
to see anyone you love again, no more beautiful music, delicious
delicacies, absolutely nothing but perfect peace, nothing to be
attached to any more: no more delusions in the least.  It is really
not for everyone, only those who seek the truth and knowledge above
all things, all pleasures of life.

Amara

Dear friends in the dhamma,

We are happy to announce the latest addition to the English
discussion schedules: every other Wed. at 15.00 at the foundation
building.  Shin and Kwan, will you be able to make it?

Amara

Hi, Amara,
What a wonderful session it was today. Many many thanks for bringing me over
there. By the way: didn't Achaan say that the Wed. sessions would have to be
every other week, on the alternate weeks that Achaan is in town? Or did you
speak to her later and it is now to be held every Wed. at 3?  That would be
great for us. If that is actually the schedule then, I shall see you at the
center on Wed. at 3.

Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay <joychay@...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 8:07 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: revised schedule


>
>  Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
> We are happy to announce the latest addition to the English
> discussion schedules: every other Wed. at 15.00 at the foundation
> building.  Shin and Kwan, will you be able to make it?
>
> Amara
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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dhammastudygroup-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
>

By the way: didn't Achaan say that the Wed. sessions would
have to be
> every other week, on the alternate weeks that Achaan is in town? Or
did you
> speak to her later and it is now to be held every Wed. at 3?

Dear Betty,
I did say every other Wed., (see below) but thank you for the
precision that it will start the week after, so that we begin Wed.
July 12th, unless I misunderstand?
Amara

> > We are happy to announce the latest addition to the English
> > discussion schedules: every other Wed. at 15.00 at the foundation
> > building.  Shin and Kwan, will you be able to make it?

--- Dear Kashi:
> >
> > 1) What is the difference between "contemplation"
> > and "reflection"?
> >
> > 2) If there are differences, is reflection
> > consumated to reveal
> > another level of insight?

>  I wrote:
> There are many, many levels of understanding both at
> the theoretical and experiential level. The theory
> assists undertsanding at the practical level and
> also
> the practical makes the the theory much clearer.

Even when we are thinking there can be moments of
direct understanding of the characteristics of
different realities. Also when we are studying a
Dhamma book there can be many moments when there is
direct study of realities. This is an important
question because we have to learn how to study
realities directly otherwise our Dhamma study is
merely theoretical. sOEMTIMES I read books by people
who have studied Abhidhamma a great deal but I am
disapointed to see that they cannot relate it directly
to what is hapening at this moment . They think of it
as some sort of technical subject to learn and think
about rather than as a very exact description of life
that should be tested and seen for oneself.

Some people can say things like "there is no self" but
still have no understanding. Thus even when we are
reflecting or contemplating or whatever we call it we
need to develop the ability to see below the surface
and see the realities that are conditioning the
thinking. It can be done and discussions like these
help to encourage. While you are reading this what
dhammas , realities are present? There are colors
contacting the eyebase, which condition seeing, cakkhu
vinnana. These are three different dhammas that we
have to gradually separate and insight.
  There is the thinking process which is composed of
many different realities. And what is the thinking
process rooted inright now? Is it all clear? In that
case it is rooted in amoha, panna, wisdom. Or is there
doubt and confusion? In that case it is rooted in
moha, ignorance.
Do you like to think about all this? In that case it
could be rooted in either lobha, unwholesome desire or
panna as both can come with pleasant feeling. We must
learn to understand the characteristics of both so
that there they can be distinguished.
If there is confusion or other unwholesome defilements
present that is OK. They are real and they too must be
understood.


> >
> > 3) "Delusion arises when consciousness
> > arises...period and always..."
> > is what someone recently said to me. My
> > understanding is that
> > delusion manifest primarily through perceptions;
> > though,
> > yes...without first having (contact -->)
> > consciousness or "kindling"
> > there wouldn't be delusion.

I mentioned the asava yesterday. Another way the
Buddha classified defilements is by vipallasa, the
perversions of seeing. I use the Patisambhidhimagga
VIII "Bhikkhus there are four perversions of
percep[tion,(sanna) perversions of cita, perversions
of view. What four? Bhikkhus seeing what is
1.impermanent as permenent is a perversion of sanna,
of citta of ditthi. 2.Seeing what is not self  as
selfis...
3.seeing the foul as beautiful is..
4.seeing the painful as pleasnat is a perversion of
.."

The sotappana has completely eliminated forever all
pervesion of view ditthi. He has also eliminated all
perversions at the level of sanna and citta that see
anything as permanent or self. However he still has
the perversions of view at the level of sanna and
citta that see the foul as beautiful and the painful
as pleasant.
It is sometimes thought that the experience of nibbana
is some sort of mystical event whereby someone who was
deluded is meditating and suddenly switches into an
enlightened being. However, even before becoming a
sotapanna there is a gradual diminishment of  wrong
view, ditthi, which is the grossest, most dangerous
defilement. Thus someone may not be enlightened but if
they have considered and tested the teachings and
studied realities directly a lot, they will have only
rarely, if at all, the perversions at the level of
ditthi( those  that see what is not self as self or
what is not permanent as permanent.) They will still
have these perversions at the level of sanna and citta
however, although these will gradually recede as
understanding deepens.
Robert


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Dear all,

I forgot to tell you that we have changed the section name of DSDG to
Dhamma Study Internet Discussion Group at
<http://www.DhammaStudy.com>
which will please Robert, Jonothan and Rosan, I'm sure.  Sorry for
the delay, I completely forgot about it waiting for more votes but
yesterday K. Warangkana reminded me about it, thank you Nong Lan.
If anything else needs fixing please tell me,

Amara

Dear friends in the dhamma,

We received some questions at DS to which Varee wrote some very good
answers in Thai, now translated and uploaded in the Q&A section under
Q&A3, at <http://www.DhammaStudy.com> .  The background is the
popular Hourglass Nebula by NASA, by the way.

Any comments or corrections most welcome,

Amara

Hello Kashi,

<< -----
1) What is the difference between "contemplation" and "reflection"?
-------- >>

There are three kinds of knowledge :
(1) one learned from meditation books, dhamma talks, and Tipitaka..
(2) one come from "Reasoning" based on past experience, gained
through Mindfulness..
(3) one come from direct experience with Mindfulness, right in the
moment of Mindfulness.. This is Insight (Panna)..

I'm not sure how the three kinds of knowledge are comparable to the
two terms, "contemplation" and "reflection"..

<< -----
2) If there are differences, is reflection consumated to reveal
another level of insight?
-------- >>

"Reasoning" can not give Insight..
Insight is direct knowledge..


<< -----
3) "Delusion arises when consciousness arises...period and
always..." is what someone recently said to me. My understanding
is that delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; though,
yes...without first having (contact -->) consciousness
or "kindling" there wouldn't be delusion. Are ALL (if this is to
mean "always") people born "deluded?"
-------- >>

"Consciousness" as in Vinnana (the aggregate) ??
"Perception" as in Sanna (the aggregate) ??

The 5 aggregates are all conditional and impermanent..
Everything we perceive is based on the 5 aggregates..

Delusion ??  The 5 aggregates..  :-))

With metta,

Theresa.

> (3) one come from direct experience with Mindfulness, right in the
> moment of Mindfulness.. This is Insight (Panna)..

Theresa,

Panna means knowing realities as they really are, nama as nama and
rupa as rupa, not as a person experiencing something.  It can be at
the intellectual level as well as at the level of sati or direct
experience, or of the level of clearly experiecing a reality as not
the self, or ultimately of the level that eradicates kilesa, level by
level.


> "Reasoning" can not give Insight..
> Insight is direct knowledge..


Reasoning  with panna can be conditions for sati to arise and dirctly
experience nama and rupa.


Amara

Kashi,

Welcome to the group.  We are glad to have your contribution.


> 1)  What is the difference between "contemplation" and "reflection"?

I don't think its possible to give an answer to this without
knowing the context.  This is because the same word can mean
different things, depending on the user's intention.  Would you
like to give us more information about what you have in mind, or the
context in which you came across the terms?


> 3)  "Delusion arises when consciousness arises...period and
always..."
> is what someone recently said to me.  My understanding is that
> delusion manifest primarily through perceptions; though,
> yes...without first having (contact -->) consciousness or
"kindling"
> there wouldn't be delusion.  Are ALL (if this is to mean "always")
> people born "deluded?"

Delusion (moha, ignorance) is a mental factor (cetasika) that
accompanies every moment of unwholesome consciousness (akusala
citta).  We all have many moments of unwholesome consciousness in a
day.  This is because of our accumulated delusion or, to put it
another way, our lack of wisdom.  So yes, we are born this way.  But
delusion does not arise at other moments of consciousness.  So we are
not deluded all the time, thank goodness!

Jonothan.

Dear Group,

Yes, we're back and I'd also like to welcome Kashi and other new 'lurking'
members to the group which is now very international.

I'm delighted to see all the great messages that have come in during our
holiday and look forward to going through them in due course. Meanwhile i'm
struggling between jetlag and office work...but how helpful it is to have
confidence that even when totally 'spaced' out there are realities that can
be understood at these times...still seeing, hearing, thinking (however
muddled the concepts maybe), attachment, aversion and all the others we
discuss on this list. It's a bit like when one loses one's memory....still
realities which awareness can be aware of.

In this context I remember once asking Khun Sujin about if one suffers from
Alzheimer's disease whether awareness can arise and develop. Her answer was
that there are different moments. In other words there isn't loss of memory
at every moment and for awareness of thinking to arise, it doesn't matter
what the concepts are that thinking thinks about. In the same way, it seems
to me one can be spaced out one moment and with or without awareness and
thinking 'clearly' the next, with or without awareness. But what about when
someone appears to have lost all memory and not even recognise those around
them. Can there be any awareness? I'm not sure. I would think it certainly
would need to have been accumulated beforehand.

I'm beginning to ramble....

Sarah




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Dear Sarah,
Welcome back.
Interesting question about Alzheimers.
"> In this context I remember once asking Khun Sujin
> about if one suffers from
> Alzheimer's disease whether awareness can arise and
> develop. Her answer was
> that there are different moments. In other words
> there isn't loss of memory
> at every moment and for awareness of thinking to
> arise, it doesn't matter
> what the concepts are that thinking thinks about. In
> the same way, it seems
> to me one can be spaced out one moment and with or
> without awareness and
> thinking 'clearly' the next, with or without
> awareness."

Excellent comments

  "But what about when
> someone appears to have lost all memory and not even
> recognise those around
> them. Can there be any awareness? I'm not sure. I
> would think it certainly
> would need to have been accumulated beforehand."

My grandmother started to lose her memory when she was
about 89 and it got worse and worse until her death at
93years. My mother was very worried by this. I pointed
out that granny was still in good spirits and that all
her accumulations from the past were not wasted.

We cling to memory as self. But the fleeting realities
that make up the process of memories are part of the
5khandhas. They are alien, not "us".

  One might forget even the Dhamma one has learnt but
this does not mean that there is never any sati after
that. It is like when we die and start a new life.
This is far more extreme -we remember nothing of the
old yet accumulations of panna are not lost. However
if our understanding is only book learning then the
wisdom is superficial and flows away.
Robert
>
>

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===== forwarded message starts here =======

From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki  <brelief@e...>
Date: Mon Jul 3, 2000 5:32pm
Subject: The Buddha's Emphasis on Practice



The Buddha's Emphasis on Practice

	 Incidentally there is a story illustrative of the importance
the Buddha attached to the practice of the Dhamma.  One day, the
Buddha came out of the Jetavana monastery with the bhikkhus to go on
tour.  King Kosala, the merchant Anathapindika, and other lay
disciples requested the Buddha not to go on tour, but it was in
vain.  The merchant was unhappy because he would not be able to hear
the Buddha's teaching or to make offerings to the Lord and the
bhikkhus.  His slave girl, Punna by name, said that she would ask the
Buddha to come back.  The merchant promised to free her from bondage
if she could make the Buddha return to the monastery.

	 Then Punna followed the Buddha quickly and implored the Lord
to come back. The Buddha asked her what she could do for him.  She
replied that she had nothing to offer, but that she would take refuge
in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha and observe the five
precepts if the Lord spent the lent in Savatthi city. Saying, "Sadhu
–
sell said", the Buddha blessed her and returned to Jetavana monastery.

	 The news spread and the merchant set Punna free and adopted
her as his daughter.  She was no free to do what she liked, free to
shape her own destiny.  For this reason and by virtue of her parami
(kammic potential) in her previous lives, she joined the holy order.
She practiced vipassana and when she developed insight into the
impermanence of nama-rupa, the Buddha exhorted her thus: "My
daughter, just as the moon is full and complete on the fifteenth day,
so also you should practice vipassana to the end.  When your
vipassana insight is complete, you will attain the end of suffering."

	 After hearing this exhortation, Punna theri attained the last
stage on the holy path and became an Arahat.  The Buddha had of
course foreseen Punna's destiny and it was his concern for her
spiritual welfare that prompted him to cancel the projected tour and
turn back in response to her appeal.  This is an example of the high
regard for the practice of Dhamma that Gotama Buddha had in common
with other Buddhas.

– A Discourse on Paticcasamuppada by the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw
of
Burma, translated by U Aye Maung, 1982 pp 79-80


http://home.earthlink.net/~brelief

> Incidentally there is a story illustrative of the importance
>the Buddha attached to the practice of the Dhamma.  One day, the
>Buddha came out of the Jetavana monastery with the bhikkhus to go on
>tour.  ...  This is an example of the high
>regard for the practice of Dhamma that Gotama Buddha had in common
>with other Buddhas.


Theresa,

Thank you for posting this summary of one of the suttas.  It inspires me to
look up the sutta itself when I get home.

In fact, the whole of the Buddha’s life following his enlightenment was
devoted to urging people to realize for themselves the truths that he
himself had realized.  So it is not just one particular sutta that shows the
importance of the practice of the Dhamma.

The crucial question however is, What exactly is the practice of vipassana
as taught by the Buddha?  I suggest that without a detailed study of and
reflection on the teachings our practice cannot be correct.  I would be
interested to know whether you find in this sutta support for any different
view.

Jonothan

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Robert,

I really appreciated this post of yours and especially appreciate your
consideration and investigation of the teachings. To me, this is the real
meaning of reflection and consideration. For this, inevitably as you and
Amara keep reminding us, we have to see what is really meant by the Pali
words. I like the idea of complication being used to refer to tanha, ditthi
and mana (see below).

Don't we really complicate our lives all day long by following the greeds,
wrong views and conceits?

Thanks,
Sarah

>
>Dear GROUP
>  Theresa sent us some translations of  some suttas
>(see posting danger and friend). Thank you Theresa.
>Studying the Titipika – the Vinaya, the Suttanta, the
>Abhidhamma is the only way to learn what it was that
>the Buddha taught. If we don't know what he taught how
>can we practice correctly? We might be practicing
>something different from the Buddha's teaching.
>
>But how do we study?
>  Every word in the Tipitika is worth investigating.
>Every sentence has deep meaning.
>Let us consider the word “complication”. This was
>In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30
>Anuruddha Sutta
>One of the suttas  that Theresa emailed, in one
>sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha
>“This Dhamma is for one who
>enjoys non-complication, who delights in
>non-complication, not for
>one who enjoys & delights in complication.”'I looked
>up the pali of this sentence: “nippapancaramassayam
>dhammo nippapancaratino nayam dhammo papancaramassa
>papancarintino”
>
>What do you think the Buddha meant by complication and
>non-complication? I once heard someone –referring to
>this sutta- say this meant people should not think too
>much because this complicates things and takes people
>away from the present moment. And in a superficial way
>there is something in this. But we can always learn
>more.
>
>Complication in this sutta is the English translation
>for papanca. There are three papanca – tanha (desire),
>ditthi(view) and mana (conceit). (see netti pakarana
>paragraph 203, 204).These three are said to prolong
>samasara vata , the round of births and deaths.
>And now  we may want to understand what  the Buddha
>mean by tanha, for example? Is tanha something we have
>only when we want sex or get hungry or go shopping? Or
>is there more to it? So we study a little more - we
>learn that the Buddha said tanha was samudaya sacca
>the cause for dukkha. The Patisamabhidhi magga ( I
>597) says that wordly life is diversified (another
>word for papanca ) by 108 kinds of tanha. Tanha is
>also one of the factors in the paticcusamupada. In the
>Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya:
>The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin
>of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this
>world. What, monks, is the origin of beings?
>On account of the eye base and visible object, eye
>consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the
>conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling
>arises; through feeling  desire(TANHA) arises; through
>desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment
>bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming
>birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow,
>lamentation.
>  The Buddha then repeated this for the other doors of
>ear, nose, tongue taste body and mind.
>
>Then we might wonder – well is this process of
>Paticcusamupada happening now, at this moment? Now
>there is seeing, there is phassa, there is feeling. Is
>there tanha? If one investigates in daily life  just
>this question over and over one may learn that even
>when the feeling is very neutral tanha may be
>present.– For example I am sitting in my office in
>Japan and just glanced at the pastel coloured wall- no
>particular like or dislike noticeable at that moment
>and yet could tanha of some degree, even if it wasn’t
>apparent have arisen? Only by studying directly these
>moments in daily life can we find out the answers and
>really learn just what life is and what the Buddha
>taught.
>
>Do we want to stop this tanha, try and suppress it?
>Well that is one way (and in fact it was my early
>practice). But we can also understand it; and I think
>that is most useful. Then we can study its
>characteristic more. We might find that it is very
>common indeed. We might learn that when we try to have
>sati that tanha can come in and masquerade as sati.
>But if we are prepared to study  tanha again  and
>again – and of course not neglect the direct study of
>all other realities- we might become wary of its
>tricks. We might start to see the difference between
>true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are
>actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara.
>Also we might find out that when we thought we had
>sati often that this was merely mana, conceit – a
>papanca, a prolonger of samsara.  AND we might begin
>to realize that when we had the idea that we could
>make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea
>of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another
>papanca, prolonger of samsara. If we find these things
>out we are learning something of immeasurable value.
>We are learning what we really are – a skin bag
>stuffed with kilesa. Then we are beginning to
>comprehend what this path involves.
>
>This letter started off to discuss one word from a
>sutta – papanca .So far we haven’t even scratched the
>surface on one aspect of papanca.
>That is to be expected. One aeon is so long – Billions
>and billions of years, maybe longer. The Buddha took
>four incalculably long periods of time  plus one
>hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become
>a Buddha .  We don’t have to develop parami to the
>extent of a Buddha but it still takes a long, long
>time. We might hope that we are the developed ones who
>have so much parami already but this is just tanha,
>one of the papanca, or we may be sure we are ones who
>already have great parami, but this is mana, another
>papanca, a prolonger of samasara. During these many
>aeons in countless lives the Buddha was firm to keep
>investigating. It says in the Madhuratthavilisini, the
>commentary to the Buddhavamsa (chapter on sumedha IIA
>p155) that the Bodhisatta at the time of Dipankara
>Buddha, 24 Buddhas ago, was investigating the parami
>of wisdom. He realized what needed to be done and made
>this aspiration that “questioning discerning people
>all the time (he would) go on to the perfection of
>wisdom’.
>
>  But how did he question wise people? Certainly not in
>a careless way. He must  have evaluated the answers so
>rigorously and then considered how to ask even more
>discerning questions.  Nor did he ask in a way that
>wanted to show off his wisdom. He sincerely wanted to
>learn. Developing this skill in questioning is part of
>the path. Some are not yet ready even for this. This
>too depends on accumulations. This skill might sound
>trivial but it takes time, in fact lifetimes to
>develop. If it is not developed then one could discuss
>with many helpful people but get nothing from it.
>
>It is our attitude when investigating that is
>important. One could be intent on learning about
>papanca, for example, but be unaware of the cittas
>while studying and not even realize that sometimes it
>was papanca motivating the study. If that is the case
>then no great benefit comes from such research. We
>need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the
>purpose of discussion is to help us better understand
>this moment.
>SO  I write all this just as much for myself as anyone
>else. I need to develop more listening skills, more
>questioning skills . I need to  study much more ,
>countless times more the characteristics of tanha and
>mana and ditthi. I need to consider more, much more
>the words in the Tipitika.
>
>Robert
>

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Hello All,

Thank you everyone for your replies, it will take me some time to
investigate. I will try my best to describe how I came about asking
my questions. I do not have a meditation teacher nor have yet read
the Abhidhamma (only its definition), so I lack knowledge of many
terminologies in describing my experiences, please bear with me.

I am currently reading the "Seven Contemplations of Insight" prepared
under the guidance of Venerable Matara Sri Nanarama Mahathera. As I
read through the series of contemplations, it became evident that I
have gone through some of the experiences described in this book but
am careful whether this is really through direct experience or if it
is just "book learning." This is what I'm working on---figuring out
what is what, which is which.

Jonathon, to answer your question as to how my initial questions came
about (their context)---they were partly due to taking time off from
reading and going over what I just read vs. what I remember
experiencing (with regards to what I just read). During this
investigation, I remembered reading the word "reflection" and was not
sure if there were any differences between it and contemplation.(Does
this make sense?) What word would best render "reflection?"  ---
anupassana (the Pali word for "contemplation"?) I realize that there
is this tendency in my thinking to "over-investigate," am never quite
sure how far to investigate. I've adopted a rule where if the gut
feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know what other
English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it is the same as
"intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something after an applied
investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but that I have come
across something that is not yet apparent/developed or not yet truly
and directly experienced---so I make a mental note, let go of the
investigation and go on to other things.

From everyone's replies, I see pieces to the puzzle. For example,
Theresa mentioned the 3 kinds of knowledge which I have not
thoroughly investigated; Amara's reply to my 3rd question made me
realized that I was not delving into dependent origination deeply to
understand why there was delusion at the moment of consciousness, but
at the same token the gut feeling was to pursue investigation into
perceptions in order to get into the workings of delusion. Dependent
origination seems so basic, yet here I was puzzled over why there was
delusion when we are born. Sarah then posted Robert's writings on
concentration in which he wrote about papanca, which I recently read
about and perhaps that was the context of why I wrote that my
understanding was that "delusion primarily manifests in perceptions."

I appreciate all replies, as you can see there is much for me to
investigate and reinvestigate. To me, it is all new (even though it's
been around for a couple of thousand years). I am glad to have been
invited here because of the focus on meditation reinforced by Pali---
it helps tremendously!

May all be well and happy,
Kashi


P.S. I realized that I use the words "I" and "my" a lot, this is
another thing I've got to work on...I do mean them to represent the
aggregates.

--- Dear kashi,
Good to see you investigating. As you have heard me
say before there are many levels of understanding at
both the experiential and theoretical level.
>
> >
> I am currently reading the "Seven Contemplations of
> Insight" prepared
> under the guidance of Venerable Matara Sri Nanarama
> Mahathera. As I
> read through the series of contemplations, it became
> evident that I
> have gone through some of the experiences described
> in this book but
> am careful whether this is really through direct
> experience or if it
> is just "book learning."
I think this book may be a summary of the seven stages
of insight based on a section in the Vissudhimagga- an
ancient commentary. I am glad you are carefully
considering whether this is just book learning or
direct experience. A problem is that people read these
descriptions and are all too ready to decide that they
have gone through them. You see we can fit, somehow,
almost any experience into any system that anyone
describes if we are led by tanha, ditthi or mana. The
development of understanding comes with real
detachment from the idea of self - it leads away from
trying to prove to ourself that we are wise or we are
right or whatever. And if wisdom develops to the
degree that vipassana nana are experienced any idea of
control is absent. I meet and correspond from time to
time with people who think they have experienced this
or that stage who are clearly deluded. If I think I
can help I will try to gently point out this out but
it depends on the amount of attachment they have to
their "attainments' (and also accumulations from
previous lives) whether they will listen. I have met
many people who overestimate their spiritual progress
but very, very few who underestimate. Why is that? The
answer is papanca.

  Usually the hardest to help are those who are most
dedicated- they are making such monumental efforts and
giving up so much, making so many sacrifices that they
naturally feel very changed when they think about
their old self.  They assume this must be what the
path is and find it very hard to see that wisdom is
quite invisible, that it is a gradual dropping away of
view and a deeper understanding into dhammas. So
subtle.

.
>
I've adopted a rule
> where if the gut
> feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know
> what other
> English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it
> is the same as
> "intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something
> after an applied
> investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but
> that I have come
> across something that is not yet apparent/developed
> or not yet truly
> and directly experienced---so I make a mental note,
> let go of the
> investigation and go on to other things.

This is as good a way as any other to study. You see
there really and truly is no self, no Robert, no
Kashi. There is no one who can decide to develop
understanding, who can make effort, or do anything.
Effort arises because of conditions and effort can
arise with kusala or akusala. We think we decided to
learn about Buddhism but it happened by conditions:
We cannot suddenly decide to think differently or have
deep understanding, it is all conditioned. The
Patthana, the last and most important book of the
Abhidhamma, goes into enormous detail about the 24
paccaya (conditions).
Some of which are past and some present. But even the
present ones do not
simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because
"I" want them to. The
processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and
there is no "person"
who can do anything to stop them or change them. Even
the cittas that are
arising at this moment are conditioned by previous
cittas as well as well as
by other conditions that are present at the same time.
This is not the place
to go into details but it is well worth studying the
Patthana. It gives us a
glimpse of the profundity of the path and the wisdom
of the Buddha.

  Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the
deep teachings on anatta,
are a condition for understanding. This understanding
leads to energy of the right sort:
energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the
study and practice of
vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that
will gladly keep
developing understanding moment after moment, life
after life, aeon after
aeon, no matter how long it takes. And if
understanding grows then there
will be detachment from the idea of self and  control.
Then there is not much worry about the path or about
where we are on it - because "I" have been taken out
of the
equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that
we want to be happy,
get enlightened, whatever. Then, as the Vissudhimagga
says,
there is a path but no one on the path.

P.S. I realized that I use the words "I" and "my" a
> lot, this is
> another thing I've got to work on...I do mean them
> to represent the
> aggregates.
>
This is not a problem - even the Buddha used I and my
as terms. It is the understanding behind the terms
that counts.
Anyone can say things like " there is no self, there
are only the aggregates (khandas)" but what is the
understanding? Are we saying these words but still
believing that we can control something, somehow?



Robert


--- Kashi Yum <kashiyum@...> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Thank you everyone for your replies, it will take me
> some time to
> investigate. I will try my best to describe how I
> came about asking
> my questions. I do not have a meditation teacher nor
> have yet read
> the Abhidhamma (only its definition), so I lack
> knowledge of many
> terminologies in describing my experiences, please
> bear with me.
>
> I am currently reading the "Seven Contemplations of
> Insight" prepared
> under the guidance of Venerable Matara Sri Nanarama
> Mahathera. As I
> read through the series of contemplations, it became
> evident that I
> have gone through some of the experiences described
> in this book but
> am careful whether this is really through direct
> experience or if it
> is just "book learning." This is what I'm working
> on---figuring out
> what is what, which is which.
>
> Jonathon, to answer your question as to how my
> initial questions came
> about (their context)---they were partly due to
> taking time off from
> reading and going over what I just read vs. what I
> remember
> experiencing (with regards to what I just read).
> During this
> investigation, I remembered reading the word
> "reflection" and was not
> sure if there were any differences between it and
> contemplation.(Does
> this make sense?) What word would best render
> "reflection?"  ---
> anupassana (the Pali word for "contemplation"?) I
> realize that there
> is this tendency in my thinking to
> "over-investigate," am never quite
> sure how far to investigate. I've adopted a rule
> where if the gut
> feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know
> what other
> English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it
> is the same as
> "intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something
> after an applied
> investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but
> that I have come
> across something that is not yet apparent/developed
> or not yet truly
> and directly experienced---so I make a mental note,
> let go of the
> investigation and go on to other things.
>
> From everyone's replies, I see pieces to the puzzle.
> For example,
> Theresa mentioned the 3 kinds of knowledge which I
> have not
> thoroughly investigated; Amara's reply to my 3rd
> question made me
> realized that I was not delving into dependent
> origination deeply to
> understand why there was delusion at the moment of
> consciousness, but
> at the same token the gut feeling was to pursue
> investigation into
> perceptions in order to get into the workings of
> delusion. Dependent
> origination seems so basic, yet here I was puzzled
> over why there was
> delusion when we are born. Sarah then posted
> Robert's writings on
> concentration in which he wrote about papanca, which
> I recently read
> about and perhaps that was the context of why I
> wrote that my
> understanding was that "delusion primarily manifests
> in perceptions."
>
> I appreciate all replies, as you can see there is
> much for me to
> investigate and reinvestigate. To me, it is all new
> (even though it's
> been around for a couple of thousand years). I am
> glad to have been
> invited here because of the focus on meditation
> reinforced by Pali---
> it helps tremendously!
>
> May all be well and happy,
> Kashi
>
>
> P.S. I realized that I use the words "I" and "my" a
> lot, this is
> another thing I've got to work on...I do mean them
> to represent the
> aggregates.
>
>


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Theresa,

Further to your posting about emphasis on the practice, the Pali Dictionary
of Proper Names gives the story of the slave-woman Punna.  (It is not from a
sutta, but is given in one of the commentaries to the suttas - ie, as
background explanation).

According to this source, Punna was already a Sotapanna when she heard the
exhortation from the Buddha (and as such, of course, she already knew full
well the value of the practice of the Dhamma.)  She became an Arahata on
hearing the exhortation.

Another translation of the words spoken to Punna by the Buddha is available
at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/therigatha/thig1.html#3.
It reads as follows-

"Punna, grow full with good qualities
like the moon on the fifteenth day.
With discernment at total fullness,
burst the mass of darkness."

Jonothan.



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Kashi,

>…………………………… I am glad to have been
>invited here because of the focus on meditation reinforced by Pali---
>it helps tremendously!

The question of meditation is an ongoing topic on this list.  As in the case
of your previous posting, “meditation” is a word that has different meanings
depending on how it is used.  Some people use it as a translation of the
Pali word “bhavana”, so that “vipassana bhavana” becomes “insight
meditation”.  However, a better translation of bhavana would be “mental
development”.  Thus, samatha bhavana means simply the development of
concentration (of a certain level), and vipassana bhavana means the
development of insight or understanding (of a certain level).  Exactly how
these qualities are to be developed is what the teachings are all about.  To
use the term meditation, which to most people suggests some kind of a formal
practice such a sitting, gives bhavana a slant that it does not actually
carry in the original texts.

I am sure that everyone on this list is interested in developing more kusala
(wholesomeness) of every kind – dana (generosity), sila (moral conduct) and
bhavana.  But our focus is mostly on vipassana bhavana, which is the only
level of kusala that leads to release.  This is the aspect of the teaching
that was unique to the Buddha.  And to this end we find discussion and study
of the original texts very useful, because we understand that the teaching
is very subtle and very deep and cannot be realised simply by applying a
technique that someone else has taught us.

So in a sense I would prefer to say that our focus is or should be on the
understanding of the teachings, because this necessarily leads to the
gradual realisation of those teachings.

I hope you continue to find the list useful.  Please keep up the comments
and questions.

Jonothan

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Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group!

You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my dusty Dhammapada texts
too! I have a question at the end.

>Dear Amara,
>You refer to a posting that Theresa sent:
>
>
> > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom
>without meditation.
> > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close to
>peace and
> > emancipation."
>
>… other versions:
>
>There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks
>insight, and no
>insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He
>in whom are
>found both meditative concentration and insight,
>indeed, is close to
>Nibbana. 372”
>

I'll just quote the pali to save everyone checking:

Natthi jhanam apannassa
panna natthi ajhayato
yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca
sa ve nibbanasantike

>Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has
>several verses where meditation is mentioned. All
>these verses are very pithy though, so it is useful to
>consult with the ancient commentary. I use the
>translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987, Oxford
>university press). Another  verse in the Dhammapada
>#23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever firm
>of enterprise, those steadfast ones  touch Nibbana,
>Incomparable release from bonds”
>Those meditators is the English translation of te
>jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the wise
>who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of the
>two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation
>concerned with objects constituted by the eight
>attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned with the
>characteristics of existence constituted by the Paths
>and the fruits of insight.”
>The first one refers to samattha meditation using one
>of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina. And
>the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the three
>characteristics.
>Robert.


Robert, I've also gone back to check the background in my excellent copy of
Dhammapada commentary by Eugene Burlingame)  Harvard Oriental Series, PTS)
The verse 372 in Pali above and a few other verses were spoken by the Buddha
after a very interesting story about the conversion of a pack of thieves who
were in the process of robbing the recently converted Elder Soma's mother's
house while she listened to her son preaching. When her maid told her that
the empty house was being robbed she told her maid to tell the thieves to
help themselves to the copper, then the silver, then the gold as she didn't
want to be disturbed from the teachings. The thieves were so impressed by
this, that they put back all they had stolen, came to offer apologies,
listened to the teachings from Soma and became monks. The Buddha spoke the
stanzas 'as though sitting face to face with them'.

My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that the reason the Buddha
mentions the value of jhana attainment along with insight (vipassana)
attainment is because those listened have already attained jhanas. For this
group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it may have been directed to
the other 800+ monks listening). The phrase about wisdom being impossible
w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca) as we know
jhana attainment is not necessary for realising nibbana. I know this is in
danger of becoming too 'intellectual' but as the quote has been raised by
Theresa, it would be interesting to clarify further amongst ourselves of
with K.Sujin's assistance.

Thanks,
Sarah>

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>My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that the reason the Buddha
>mentions the value of jhana attainment along with insight (vipassana)
>attainment is because those listened have already attained jhanas.


Sarah,

Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well,
such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc.  Have you seen the latest Q&A3 page in
<http://www.DhammaStudy.com>?  It treats something quite similar: the
abhinna.

Have fun reading it!

Amara
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dear sarah,
I should have been clearer in my posting. .
>
> My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that
> the reason the Buddha
> mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> insight (vipassana)
> attainment is because those listened have already
Ø attained jhanas.
Ø
Ø
Ø
Ø All of us have attained jhana countless times in the
past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be increasing
in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However,
it is true that most of us may not now have many
accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now is
difficult for jhana. Even though some people may
attain the upacara samadhi if they practice correctly
and with great care, it is very difficult to then gain
full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for
insight one must have mastery of several levels of
jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so
skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily
life),which no one, at least as I understand it can
have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana.
Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the
proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka vipassaka.

Ø
Ø "For this
> group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> may have been directed to
Ø the other 800+ monks listening)".
Ø
Ø Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became
enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous
accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too.
Ø
Ø The phrase about
> wisdom being impossible
> w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> ca pannan ca) as we know
> jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
Ø nibbana.
Ø
Ø At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana
– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas
that this degree of wisdom will insight.
These moments are close in concentration power to that
of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But
this is all quite different from the type of samadhi
associated with samattha meditation which is focused
on a special object and arises again and again focused
on that object.
Robert

--- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:
> Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group!
>
> You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my
> dusty Dhammapada texts
> too! I have a question at the end.
>
> >Dear Amara,
> >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent:
> >
> >
> > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom
> >without meditation.
> > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close
> to
> >peace and
> > > emancipation."
> >
> >… other versions:
> >
> >There is no meditative concentration for him who
> lacks
> >insight, and no
> >insight for him who lacks meditative concentration.
> He
> >in whom are
> >found both meditative concentration and insight,
> >indeed, is close to
> >Nibbana. 372”
> >
>
> I'll just quote the pali to save everyone checking:
>
> Natthi jhanam apannassa
> panna natthi ajhayato
> yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca
> sa ve nibbanasantike
>
> >Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has
> >several verses where meditation is mentioned. All
> >these verses are very pithy though, so it is useful
> to
> >consult with the ancient commentary. I use the
> >translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987,
> Oxford
> >university press). Another  verse in the Dhammapada
> >#23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever
> firm
> >of enterprise, those steadfast ones  touch Nibbana,
> >Incomparable release from bonds”
> >Those meditators is the English translation of te
> >jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the
> wise
> >who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of the
> >two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation
> >concerned with objects constituted by the eight
> >attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned with
> the
> >characteristics of existence constituted by the
> Paths
> >and the fruits of insight.”
> >The first one refers to samattha meditation using
> one
> >of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina.
> And
> >the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the
> three
> >characteristics.
> >Robert.
>
>
> Robert, I've also gone back to check the background
> in my excellent copy of
> Dhammapada commentary by Eugene Burlingame)  Harvard
> Oriental Series, PTS)
> The verse 372 in Pali above and a few other verses
> were spoken by the Buddha
> after a very interesting story about the conversion
> of a pack of thieves who
> were in the process of robbing the recently
> converted Elder Soma's mother's
> house while she listened to her son preaching. When
> her maid told her that
> the empty house was being robbed she told her maid
> to tell the thieves to
> help themselves to the copper, then the silver, then
> the gold as she didn't
> want to be disturbed from the teachings. The thieves
> were so impressed by
> this, that they put back all they had stolen, came
> to offer apologies,
> listened to the teachings from Soma and became
> monks. The Buddha spoke the
> stanzas 'as though sitting face to face with them'.
>
> My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that
> the reason the Buddha
> mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> insight (vipassana)
> attainment is because those listened have already
> attained jhanas. For this
> group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> may have been directed to
> the other 800+ monks listening). The phrase about
> wisdom being impossible
> w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> ca pannan ca) as we know
> jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
> nibbana. I know this is in
> danger of becoming too 'intellectual' but as the
> quote has been raised by
> Theresa, it would be interesting to clarify further
> amongst ourselves of
> with K.Sujin's assistance.
>
> Thanks,
> Sarah>
>
>
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Dear sdarah,
I just reread your question and see I misunderstood
part of it. There were many who attained skill in
jhana of samattha at the very time they became
enlightened. They may not have had any experience of
it in this life but had such deep accumultaions that
they became this special type of arahant. They didnt
have to do all the usual preparations because of
enormous parami.
Robert--- Robert Kirkpatrick
<robertkirkpatrick@...> wrote:
> dear sarah,
> I should have been clearer in my posting. .
> >
> > My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain
> that
> > the reason the Buddha
> > mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> > insight (vipassana)
> > attainment is because those listened have already
> Ø attained jhanas.
> Ø
> Ø
> Ø
> Ø All of us have attained jhana countless times in
> the
> past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be
> increasing
> in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However,
> it is true that most of us may not now have many
> accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now
> is
> difficult for jhana. Even though some people may
> attain the upacara samadhi if they practice
> correctly
> and with great care, it is very difficult to then
> gain
> full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for
> insight one must have mastery of several levels of
> jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so
> skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily
> life),which no one, at least as I understand it can
> have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana.
> Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the
> proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka
> vipassaka.
>
> Ø
> Ø "For this
> > group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> > may have been directed to
> Ø the other 800+ monks listening)".
> Ø
> Ø Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became
> enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous
> accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too.
> Ø
> Ø The phrase about
> > wisdom being impossible
> > w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> > ca pannan ca) as we know
> > jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
> Ø nibbana.
> Ø
> Ø At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
> fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of
> jhana
> – just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
> wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
> occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
> just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
> being insighted. No one can chose which namas or
> rupas
> that this degree of wisdom will insight.
> These moments are close in concentration power to
> that
> of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But
> this is all quite different from the type of samadhi
> associated with samattha meditation which is focused
> on a special object and arises again and again
> focused
> on that object.
> Robert
>
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...>
> wrote:
> > Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group!
> >
> > You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my
> > dusty Dhammapada texts
> > too! I have a question at the end.
> >
> > >Dear Amara,
> > >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent:
> > >
> > >
> > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no
> wisdom
> > >without meditation.
> > > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is
> close
> > to
> > >peace and
> > > > emancipation."
> > >
> > >… other versions:
> > >
> > >There is no meditative concentration for him who
> > lacks
> > >insight, and no
> > >insight for him who lacks meditative
> concentration.
> > He
> > >in whom are
> > >found both meditative concentration and insight,
> > >indeed, is close to
> > >Nibbana. 372”
> > >
> >
> > I'll just quote the pali to save everyone
> checking:
> >
> > Natthi jhanam apannassa
> > panna natthi ajhayato
> > yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca
> > sa ve nibbanasantike
> >
> > >Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has
> > >several verses where meditation is mentioned. All
> > >these verses are very pithy though, so it is
> useful
> > to
> > >consult with the ancient commentary. I use the
> > >translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987,
> > Oxford
> > >university press). Another  verse in the
> Dhammapada
> > >#23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever
> > firm
> > >of enterprise, those steadfast ones  touch
> Nibbana,
> > >Incomparable release from bonds”
> > >Those meditators is the English translation of te
> > >jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the
> > wise
> > >who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of
> the
> > >two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation
> > >concerned with objects constituted by the eight
> > >attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned
> with
> > the
> > >characteristics of existence constituted by the
> > Paths
> > >and the fruits of insight.”
> > >The first one refers to samattha meditation using
> > one
> > >of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina.
> > And
> > >the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the
> > three
> > >characteristics.
> > >Robert.
> >
> >
> > Robert, I've also gone back to check the
> background
> > in my excellent copy of
> > Dhammapada commentary by Eugene Burlingame)
> Harvard
> > Oriental Series, PTS)
> > The verse 372 in Pali above and a few other verses
> > were spoken by the Buddha
> > after a very interesting story about the
> conversion
> > of a pack of thieves who
> > were in the process of robbing the recently
> > converted Elder Soma's mother's
> > house while she listened to her son preaching.
> When
> > her maid told her that
> > the empty house was being robbed she told her maid
> > to tell the thieves to
> > help themselves to the copper, then the silver,
> then
> > the gold as she didn't
> > want to be disturbed from the teachings. The
> thieves
> > were so impressed by
> > this, that they put back all they had stolen, came
> > to offer apologies,
> > listened to the teachings from Soma and became
> > monks. The Buddha spoke the
> > stanzas 'as though sitting face to face with
> them'.
> >
> > My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain
> that
> > the reason the Buddha
> > mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> > insight (vipassana)
> > attainment is because those listened have already
> > attained jhanas. For this
> > group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> > may have been directed to
> > the other 800+ monks listening). The phrase about
> > wisdom being impossible
> > w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> > ca pannan ca) as we know
> > jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
> > nibbana. I know this is in
> > danger of becoming too 'intellectual' but as the
>
=== message truncated ===


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Dear Group,

for the pali scholars..I made a mistake below, so will just correct it
before one of you does. The line I should have quoted in Pali is:
'panna natthi ajhayato' and not the one below.

actually I was just testing Robert! Not.
Sarah


>The phrase about wisdom being impossible
>w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca) as we know
>jhana attainment is not necessary for realising nibbana.
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>Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well,
>such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc
>Amara

Amara,
I find this interesting.  Can you give us any references to mention of
vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.
Jonothan
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> At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
>fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana
>– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
>wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
>occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
>just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
>being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas
>that this degree of wisdom will insight.
>These moments are close in concentration power to that
>of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ...
>Robert

Robert,
It would be useful to know where this information is to be found in the
texts.  Can you give us any references?
Jonothan
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Can you give us any references to mention
of
> vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.

Robert,

My mother donated the 2 sets of Tipitaka and commentaries to the
foundation a long time ago, I don't have any on hand at home, could
you please oblige?

Amara

Sorry jon,
I am busy packing for my trip . There are terse
expanations of this in some of the subcommentaries. I
will be away from the texts for the next two months so
you could ask Nina- she probably knows exactly where
the references are.
Robert
--- Jonothan Abbott <jonabb@...> wrote:
> > At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
> >fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of
> jhana
> >– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
> >wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
> >occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
> >just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
> >being insighted. No one can chose which namas or
> rupas
> >that this degree of wisdom will insight.
> >These moments are close in concentration power to
> that
> >of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ...
> >Robert
>
> Robert,
> It would be useful to know where this information is
> to be found in the
> texts.  Can you give us any references?
> Jonothan
>
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Mike,

In answer to a question from Theresa about the similarities between
the Mahasi method and the teachings of Khun Sujin, you said-

> The similarities are many.  However, they are different
"techniques".
> Yet they are both grounded in scripture and arrive at the very same
> place: Insight into reality.

Yes, scriptural integrity is most important.  Otherwise, as you
acknowledge, they could not led to the same place.

And this prompted me to revisit Mahasi's classic work The
Progress of Insight (Visuddhinana-katha), after an absence of many
years, to evaluate his approach against the scriptures.  (Note for
others:  a copy of this work can be accessed at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html or via a
link on Mike's website at
http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/index.htm .)

To be frank, I ran into difficulties at the very beginning.  The
introductory section headed "The Method of Insight in Brief" gives an
overview and summary of what follows.  One of the paragraphs of that
section, a copy of which I have put at the end of this message, seems
to suggest the following ideas or practice as part of that approach,
none of which to my knowledge has scriptural support-

a) That the "process of touch", "sitting" and "touching" are
realities which awareness may have as its object

b) That "noticing something as "X" or "Y"" forms part of the practice
as taught

c) That noticing the abdomen as "rising", "falling" etc has anything
to do with the development of awareness/insight.

And there are a number of assumptions implicit in the passage which I
also question as having no scriptural support-

d) That awareness may be developed by directing one's attention to
a particular object of which one wishes to be aware

f) That some particular objects are more suitable as an object of
awareness for a "beginner" than others.

g) That a person wishing to develop the path should undertake a
"meditation" practice of some sort

My own understanding is that there is no support for these passages
and assumptions, but I don't mind being proved wrong
(oroff-target).

(For Theresa, I am not seeking to highlight differences, only to
apply the same test as I think should be applied to any proclaimed
interpretation of the teachings.  After all, if the
understanding/practice is not exactly as taught by the Buddha, the
experience/result cannot be the same, no matter how similar it may
appear to the practitioner who undertakes it.)

Jonothan

Extract from The Progress of Insight section "The Method of Insight
in Brief"-

Insight must, in fact, be developed by noticing, according to their
specific and general characteristics, the bodily and mental processes
that become evident at the six sense doors. At the beginning,
however, it is difficult to follow and to notice clearly all bodily
and mental processes that incessantly appear at the six sense doors.
Therefore the meditator who is a beginner should first notice the
perfectly distinct process of touch, perceived through the door of
bodily sensitivity; because the Visuddhimagga says that in insight
meditation one should take up what is distinct. When sitting, there
occurs the bodily process of touch by way of the sitting posture and
through touch sensitivity in the body. These processes of tactile
sensitivity should be noticed as "Sitting _ touching _," and so
forth,
in due succession. Further, at the seated meditator's abdomen, the
tactile process of bodily motion (that is, the wind, or vibratory,
element) which has breathing as its condition, is perceptible
continuously as the rise (expansion) and fall (contraction) of the
abdomen. That too should be noticed as "rising, falling,