Hi Matheesha,
op 01-01-2006 02:07 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...:

> N: Seeing the arising and falling away of dhammas
>> is the first principal insight and several have to follow before
> the three
>> lakkhana are seen very clearly. It is a development.
>
> M: What im trying to get at is how deeply do we need to experience?
> We do not need to see the different types of paccaya for example.
> Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough.
------
N: No, not all the different paccayas.
  you say:<Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough. >
Intellectual understanding can see this. But the second stage of tender
insight is direct understanding of dhammas as conditioned without thinking.
This cannot be reached without having first directly realized the
distinction between nama and rupa.
Thus, I know that the second stage is not thinking or a knowing in general.
How it is? When time comes. I cannot tell now.
  ------
> M: Sorry, I meant accepting that everything is impermanant based on
> Faith (saddanusarin) might be easy, but unsure. How much
> perseverence do they need? They will become sotapanna at the point
> of death, like sarakani the alcoholic monk!
------
N: Based on saddha is here realization of the truth. Saddha was here
dominating. Not necessarily at death.
>> ------
> N: All the enlightenment factors develop together,
>
> M: Nina, I think the factors of enlightenment develop even when
> becoming a sotapanna and not just an arahanth. Is that what you are
> saying. This is something im unsure of.
--------
N: When becoming sotapanna and after that they develop more, until
arahatship.
I mean: they do not develop one by one. They are connected.
---------
> N: > The accomplishment of charity: because if one is selfish and
> stingy, how can
>> one give up the clinging to the view of self. It is all connected.
>
> M: We need to be careful here. Self view dissappears at the
> sotapanna stage...
-----
N: Agreed, but all perfections, daana included, are needed to attain
enlightenment. They support paññaa.
-------

>> --------
> N: > In another post you were speaking about kamma that can be an
> obstruction to
>> attaining enlightenment.
> M: Yes. But there is a danger in those without much viriya and
> little self confidence, such thoughts of how much good kamma one
> has, might become a deterrant to going on the path. Better to try
> rather than not.
-----
N: If one is a dvihetuka, paññaa can still be developed in that life. This
is to be encouraged.
-------
> M: You mentioned the importance of sila. I dont think panna
> necessarily means sila. There maybe wise people who are
> uncontrolled. I dont think panna alone will produce sila. sometimes
> those with a lot of sadda and little panna have better sila than the
> other way around.
-------
N: Without paññaa siila cannot be fully developed. The Visuddhimagga
includes all the stages of insight in siila. The tripartite division of this
work is for teaching purposes. The three are connected and overlapping.
Kusala siila is kusala through action and speech, but it can also be through
the mind-door. Think of the purity of siila that is indriya samvara siila,
guarding of the sense-doors. One may be about to say an unkind word, but one
abstains.
-------
> M: I'm doing a little project these days. If you know of any suttas
> which show stages/progressions  like sila, samadhi,panna on the
> path, please let me know.
------
N: I studied this topic, mentioned in the Parinibbanasutta and Commentary.
Here the allusion is to the full accomplishment of siila through lokuttara
magga-citta of the sotaapanna. We have to look at the context whether
lokuttara citta is referred to or not. I can quote if you like.
Nina.

Hi Tep,
op 31-12-2005 22:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:

> I am familiar with accumulation(ayuhana) of kamma. ...
>
> However, when the term 'accumulation' is said to be a condition for
> teachability/learnability and for development of understanding, or
> affecting even unteachability,
-------
N: Also good and bad inclinations are accumulated and form conditions (by
way of strong natural support-condition) for the arising of kusala cittas
and akusala cittas.
Kusala such as daana and also paññaa can develop. They fall away but since
they are accumulated from citta to citta they arise again.
Cinati is another term for accumulation. The Expositor has a word
association between cito, accumulated and citta: it accumulates kamma and
the corruptions. But also good tendencies are accumulated.
See the Path of Discrimination, about the Omniscient's knowledge:
. We read (Ch 69, 585):

³Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their underlying
tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows
their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable.
586. What is the bias which is latent in beings?
Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the
wrong view of non-existence 6 thus: ŒThe world is eternal¹ or ŒThe world is
not eternal¹ ... Or else, avoiding these extremes, they have Œacceptance in
conformity¹ 7 with respect to dhammas that are dependently arisen through
specific conditionality.
He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ŒThis person gives
importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to
sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This
person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is
inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus:
ŒThis person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is
inclined to ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus:
ŒThis person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will,
is inclined to non-ill-will. ...
These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings.
587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings?
There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to
greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), ....etc.>
*****
Nina.

Friends:

   Avoiding the Extremes Opens the Middle Way to Peace!

   There are, friends, these two extremes, which not should be practiced
   by any, who has initiated purification: The hunt for sensual pleasures,
   which is low, vulgar, the common way of ordinary worldlings, ignoble,
   disadvantageous; and any practice of self-torture, which also is quite
   painful, ignoble, and rather disadvantageous! Without veering towards
   either of these extremes, the well-gone-beyond Buddha has awakened
   to the Middle Way, which leads to assured vision, to direct knowledge,
   which leads to ease, to peace, to certain understanding, to Enlightenment,
   to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Way, awakened to by the Buddha,
   which leads to assured vision, to direct knowledge, which leads to ease,
   to peace, to certain understanding, to Enlightenment, to Nibbana ?
   It is this very Noble 8-fold Way: That is

           Right View
           Right Motivation
           Right Speech
           Right Action
           Right Livelihood
           Right Effort
           Right Awareness
           Right Concentration

   That is indeed the very Middle Way, awakened to by the Blessed Buddha,
   which leads to assured vision, to direct knowledge, which leads to ease,
   to certain understanding, to Peace, to Bliss, to Enlightenment, to Nibbana...

     Source:
     The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [330-1]
     Section 42: On The 6 Senses. Rasiya: 12.
     http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507
     http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then
will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!!

  Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.

  Friendship is the Greatest ...
  Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!!

  <....>

Hi Dan,

D:> KS certainly has an unusual approach to teaching and discussing
> Dhamma.

M: Why do you think it is unusual?

D:is there a
> distinction between conceptual meditation and real meditation?
> Between conceptual monkhood and real monkhood?

M: Yes, something which is not clearly obvious if study is based
only on the abhidhamma. That is the development of faculties. No
matter how much you understand conceptually what meditation is,
there will be no development of things like samatha and vipassana.
In fact all the dhamma papanca would be deterimental to any one-
pointedness of mind which might be present.

A monk goes forth because of the following reason:

" The household life is close and dusty, the going forth is free as
the sky. It is not easy living the household life, to live the fully-
perfect holy life, purified and polished like a conch –shell.

M: ..and being in a calm envioronment has specific implications for
training:

Overcoming of the five hindrances
"As soon, brahman, as he is possessed of mindfulness and clear
consciousness, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come
you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a
tree, on a mountain slope, in a glen, a hill cave, a cemetery, a
woodland grove, in the open, or on a heap of straw.'

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-
Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm

M: In the above the Buddha is clearly asking the monk to go to the
forest etc. So if anyone tells me that it is useless, or gives it a
different interpretation, I will not accept it.

D:Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never
> > > says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path."
> >
> > 'Then venerable Va泥sa said this stanza to venerable ⮡nda:
> > My mind is burning with sensual greed,
> > I am a disciple of Gotama; Please tell me, how should I purify
my
> > mind?
> > (⮡nda:)
> > Your mind is burning because of a distorted perception
> > Avoid that passionate sign, you have welcomed
> > Reflect determinations as foreign, unpleasant and lacking a self.
> > Extinguish greed altogether and do not be burnt again and again.
> > Develop loathsomeness and concentrate the mind in one point.
> > Develop mindfulness of the body for welfare and turn away with
> > disgust
> > Develop the mind without a sign and expel the tendency to
measure.
> > Thus overcoming measuring live appeased.
>
>D: Exhortation, yes, clearly.
> Method? Purification ritual? No.

M: Definition of exhortation: 'a communication intended to urge or
persuade the recipients to take some action'

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

M: Yes, the Buddha is asking this man to take some action - it is
part of a method (see the above link for the ganakamoggallana
sutta). That method is called the Gradual training.

"It is possible, brahman, to lay down a gradual training, a gradual
doing, a gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline,

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-
Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm

Note: 'Training', 'doing', 'practice'. This is far from conceptual.
If anyone doesnt believe this (or believe it is possible), then I'm
afraid they are stuck deep down in an wrong view. Not even the
commentaries would agree with such a thing. It is a corruption.

D:>> How is a reading of, say, the satipatthana sutta as an
instruction
> book any different from a rite or ritual?

M: Practicing the satipattana is the path to nibbana.

The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the
purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation,
for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the
right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words,
the four frames of reference. Which four?

Note: 'method', it is a path to be tread upon.

A rite or ritual implies an action that is worthless/unproductive in
the eyes of a non-believer. The Buddha says it is the one way to
nibbana. I think that is very productive.

This is the path from the conceptual to the absolute. It is very
productive if practiced properly. If instructed properly. If the
conditions are brought about properly for it to develop. Not
otherwise. It is unfortunate that many people dont have these
conditions.

It is the way to direct experiencing.

"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this
way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him:
either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of
clinging-sustenance -- non-return.

"Let alone seven years...six..five..

M: Note: 'develop'
We have been studying the dhamma for years and it seems to be
happenig at a snails pace, certainly not in 7 years. We really need
to consider that we might have got it wrong. At least consider the
possiblity that there is something wrong somewhere.

D: My question is not about any
> particular method (Goenka, Mahasi, etc.) but about the very idea
> of "method" itself. What is the difference between method and
ritual?

M: You (and KS) claim that it is impossible that there can be a
method. Yet the Buddha says there is as I have shown above. You need
to decide for yourself who's disciple you are my friend. Because
these two teachings are going in different directions.

D: > Reading the suttas, I hear the Buddha frequently expounding on
how
> paramattha is experienced, i.e., describing paramattha dhammas in
> myriad ways. I believe Tipitaka also discusses specific techniques
> for cultivation samatha (e.g., part II of Vism, but I haven't
studied
> the samatha texts as carefully). What I don't see is any
description
> of any technique or method for developing vipassana.

M: Here it is (note it speaks of samatha and vipassana at the end):

"However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present,
knowing & seeing forms...consciousness at the eye...contact at the
eye as they actually are present, knowing & seeing whatever arises
conditioned through contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure,
pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- as it actually is present, one
is not infatuated with the eye...forms...consciousness at the
eye...contact at the eye...whatever arises conditioned by contact at
the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-
nor-pain. [also for other sense organs]

"For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused
on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward
future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming --
accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that --
is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances
are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned.
His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is
sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness.

"Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right
view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort.
Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right
concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood
were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the
noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the
culmination of their development. The four right exertions...the
four bases of power...the five faculties...the five strengths...the
seven factors of Awakening go to the culmination of their
development. [1] [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem:
tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-
Nikaya/Majjhima3/149-mahasalayatanika-e2.htm

M: If someone can directly experience things like (eye)consciousness
arising and passing away, and see how they are conditioned the
tilakkana becomes apparent. But sometimes it takes just seeing
arising and passing away to understand that there is no self, no
doer, that it is all an automatic mechanism. This was what I meant
by an anatta experience which I had.

D: I think there's
> a reason for that, viz., that the notion of doing a particular
action
> to attain a particular result (i.e., rite, ritual, method,
technique)
> is inherently tied up with sakayaditthi (which is why both the
> fetters of sakayaditthi and silabbataparamasa are shattered at the
> same time--they are EXTREMELY closely related).

M: My friend. How extreme it is you will know when you have got rid
of sakkaya ditti. Till then this will be just theory until proven
otherwise. Maggamagga nana is only possible after becoming a
sotapanna. Until then we will be wise to be open to possiblities
since we do not know the attainments of another person (including
KS, myself and anyone else for that matter).

When you think in the way you have mentioned above it is clear to me
your objections to having a method. I would see it that way myself,
were I in your shoes.

Let me try to explain. It is complicated so im not surprised at the
confusion if it hasnt been experienced.

When you experience directly - the result is panna. (bhavanamaya)
When you study and contemplate  the result is panna.
(sutamaya,cintamaya)

All these activities are done in the putajjana with a sense of self.
One activity is not stronger in a sense of self than the other.

A person meditating, does not think 'im meditating, i need to attain
insight, i need to become and arahath' every second. ie - there is
no expression of avijja asava all the time. In fact in vipassana any
papanca is a hindrence because they are concepts and no sati can be
maintained adequatley within them. Avijja (as papanca) should arise
less because there is calm (samadhi of the developed onepointed
variety as mentioned in the VM) and the mind is quiet.

So then, there is only direct experiencing. No avijja arising. The
proper conditions have been brought about previously to facilitate
this.

So what happens to the sense of self?

To understand this Self we look into its components (dhammaviccaya).
Rupa and (eye) consciousness can be understood if we closely observe
the process of perception in all of the sense doors. You will see
vadana and sanna arising, conditioned from phassa, which in turn was
conditioned from rupa and vinnana. You will see new sankharas
arising based on what you percieved.

You see that all this is automatic and there is no one doing any of
this. you will see that it is all conditioned arising. (even
intention is automatic-no doer)
You will see that they pass away as well. Therefore you see that
they are impermanent. Everything you thought was flowing is seen to
be an illusion. You understand therefore that 'in short, the five
aggregates are suffering'. You have completed your understanding of
the First Noble Truth. You have now understood that there is no
self, but breaking the fetter comes later with further progress at
the point of magga citta.

There are many definitions of what silabbataparamasa means. One
meaning is rites and rituals like fire worshipping etc. -more linked
with the unshakble sadda of a sotapanna in the buddha,dhamma and
sangha (3 of the 5 sotapatti anga) in not pursuing the practices of
teachers other than the buddha - also linked with the dissappearance
of the vicikicca fetter (-about the tripple gem). Another definition
i came acros of silabbataparamasa is the one below:

FETTER            SOTAPATTI ANGA
vicikicca <--> sadda in buddha, dhamma, sangha
sakkayaditti <--> understanding DO
silabbata paramasa <--> keeps the 5 precepts

In this breakng of silabbataparamasa was thought to be sila arising
naturally, not enforced from outside. (the word itself meaning sila
enforced from outside).

D: > [And, please, are you certain that ALL KS followers know much
theory
> but have little insight?]

M: I based that on what the leaders in this group said several
times. I might be wrong. They may be being modest and not entirely
truthful. One the otherhand if it were the truth, then i dont see
how others could have insight -except perhaps the ones who correlate
their past meditation experiences with what they are learning now.
Ofcouse I cant say that ALL the followers dont have insight. But I
can clearly say that 99% of people who followed the method i have
mentioned above had insight.

D:> Regarding my Vipassana practice, please don't rush to judgment.
M:> > Then again we need to consider why Howard understood anatta by
> using goenka and but it didnt work for you.
D:> Again, you assume too much. Let's keep the discussion focussed
on
> Dhamma and not on "me" and "Howard" and "you" and how great the
one
> is and how lowly the others.

M: I'm sorry. But the way you speak about meditation suggests to me
that you have not gained much insight from it, hence you think it is
worthless. Ks will attract and concentrate such people. It is not
the fault of meditation is it?

We need to discuss attainment/understanding - otherwise it is just
empty theory. ..and attainment/understandong is individual. We can
learn from others. Kalyanamittas are very important.

> > > We take it as given that insight at the level of
> > > sammasambuddha precludes even errors in language and pedagogy.
> >
> > M: Interesting. I didnt know that.
>
> I'm not wholly convinced of it, but in a discussion group
dedicated
> to developing understanding of what Buddha taught, it would be
> counterproductive and off-topic to argue that he was wrong.

M: Indeed :)

M: Yes better not to speculate about what one doesnt know. But it
> > does bring up question about her ability to lead others atleast
to
> a
> > state of sotapanna if she doesnt know how to get there herself.
>
> Again, let's keep the discussion focussed on Dhamma rather than on
> speculation about what someone else does or does not understand.

M: I think KS has conditioned in you a quick anwer to anything which
is difficult to handle! But nevermind :)

take care

Matheesha
ps- I did note that i was rather pointed in my comments in my
previous posts. I think i was a bit irritated as i felt you were
being rather challenging. sorry about that.

Hi Joop

Joop wrote:

>Hi Jon
>
>Jon: " Yes, I agree with your characterisation of 'right (kusala)
>mental state accompanying appropriate bodily action'.
>As I see it, the appropriate bodily action in the case of right
>livelihood is forbearing from doing some act of wrong speech or
>action in the course of one's livelihood that one is otherwise
>inclined to do.
>Would you agree that refraining from doing an unwholesome act that
>one is about to do can be an instance of kusala?"
>
>Hm. Your question seems to be so easy (I can simply say 'yes') but is
>difficult.
>Because the word 'inclined'. In fact your question is: do human
>beings have an inclination, and more exactly: do they have a negative
>inclination?
>
>

Well, I don't see it that way.  My question is simply this: If there is
an inclination to do an unwholesome act of speech or body, but then
there is the refraining from doing that, can this be an instance of
kusala (different from all other instances of kusala)?

You mention 'negative' inclination; do you mean 'aksuala', or something
else?

>As I said to Connie a week ago, there are three opinions:
>- deep inside human nature is good (an extreme variant of this is the
>idea of 'BuddhaNature')
>- human beings are prone to doing evil (the calvinistic way of
>thinking)
>- there is no human nature
>There is variation in what I think about this, but most times I have
>the third opinion; your question supposes the second opinion.
>

I don't think these 'philosophical' questions really come into it!  (My
own view:  All individuals other than the arahant have both wholesome
and unwholesome accumulated tendencies.)  (BTW, I would not see your 3
opinions, as worded, as being mutually exclusive ones; a person could
consistently hold all 3.)

>But why make a detour of the double negation? Why talk
>about "refraining from doing unwholesome";
>

The double negative is a matter of linguistic expression and thus, in
the present context, of form rather than substance.  The substance here,
as I see it, is the underlying behavioural situation and its
accompanying mental state (if you have a better description of that
particular situation, by all means share it with us!).

> I prefer - as said before -
> a postive formulation of ethics, and will say: "doing wholesome".
>

The formulation is a matter of form and thus to some extent of personal
preference.  But the important thing, as I see it, is the underlying
behaviour and mental state.

Jon

Hi, Nina (Connie and James)-

In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom
<vangorko@x...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tep,
> op 31-12-2005 22:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...:
>
> > I am familiar with accumulation(ayuhana) of kamma. ...
> >
> > However, when the term 'accumulation' is said to be a condition for
> > teachability/learnability and for development of understanding, or
> > affecting even unteachability,
> -------
> N: Also good and bad inclinations are accumulated and form
conditions (by  way of strong natural support-condition) for the arising of
kusala cittas  and akusala cittas.
> Kusala such as daana and also paññaa can develop. They fall
away but since  they are accumulated from citta to citta they arise again.
> Cinati is another term for accumulation. The Expositor has a word
> association between cito, accumulated and citta: it accumulates
kamma and  the corruptions. But also good tendencies are
accumulated.
> See the Path of Discrimination, about the Omniscient's knowledge:
> . We read (Ch 69, 585):
>
> ³Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their
underlying  tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), he knows their behaviour
(carita), he knows  their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as
capable and incapable.
> 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings?
> Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported
by the  wrong view of non-existence 6 thus:  The world is eternal¹ or
The world is not eternal¹ ... Or else, avoiding these extremes, they
have acceptance in  conformity  with respect to dhammas that are
dependently arisen through  specific conditionality.
> He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus:  This person
gives  importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is
inclined to  sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing
renunciation thus: This  person gives importance to renunciation, is
biassed to renunciation, is  inclined to renunciation. He also knows
them as pursuing ill-will thus:
> ŒThis person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is
> inclined to ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus:
> ŒThis person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will,
> is inclined to non-ill-will. ...
> These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies
in beings.
> 587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in
beings?
> There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying
tendency to greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), ....etc.>
> *****

Tep:  Thanks for stepping in to provide your view and more review of
the literature. Now not only Connie but you also have added layers on
top of the original definitions !

  You may not know that I am a researcher myself. So I know that all
researchers have a strong tendency to extend and add their
interpretation and deduction -- their "contributions" -- to the literature of
their areas of expertise. Comments and additions are laid on top of the
existing theories and principles; finally, either they have made some
progress, discovered new theory, etc., or the original truths become
distorted out of shape.

I just hope that writers/researchers in Buddhism always keep that
danger in mind so that the true teachings may not be polluted.


Sincerely,


Tep

=========

Hi Tep,
I know that you respect the Path of Discrimination. This helps to understand
accumulation, not only kamma. I am not aware of adding extras.
What are you researching?
Nina.
op 01-01-2006 15:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:

> Now not only Connie but you also have added layers on
> top of the original definitions !
>
> You may not know that I am a researcher myself. So I know that all
> researchers have a strong tendency to extend and add their
> interpretation and deduction

Dear Group,
We sometimes speak about how there were many wise ones in the
ancient days who could understand deeply, and now how few there are.

Those wise ones of old- even they were genuine attainers of insight-
such as a layman who attained anagami and who was praised by the
Buddha. The layman asked that the Buddha not reveal this to other
laydisciples.

Or the monks when they took on dhutanga:

"That Elder, it seems, was a sitter, but no one knew it. Then one
night the other saw him by the light of a flash of lightning sitting
up on his bed. He asked, "Are you a sitter, venerable sir?". Out of
fewness of wishes that his ascetic practice should get known, the
Elder lay down. Afterwards he undertook the practice anew"(Pm. 77).

The other was his twin brother who knew him all his life. He did not
want the brother(or anyone) to think highly of him because he had
taken on the sitting practice.

Different now- someone has a strange experience and next they want
to proclaim they have had vipassana insight or even jhana (or even
many jhanas!). Monks, of course, are forbidden by the vinaya to even
hint at any attainment(see postscript)to laypeople, but we
laybuddhists of today sometimes play a game of conceit and delusion
to see who trumps the other. Funny, but also a sign of how little
real understanding there is.

Sutta Nipata
"Whoever boasts to others, unasked,
of his practices, precepts,
is, say the skilled,
ignoble by nature --
     he who speaks of himself
     of his own accord."
Robertk


Postscript:
VINAYA
"Should any bhikkhu report (his own) factual superior human state
to an unordained person, it is to be confessed.
The factors for the full offense here are three:

1) Object: an unordained person, i.e., anyone -- human or not -- who
is not a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni.
2) Effort: One reports one's actual attainment of a superior human
state to such a person.
3) Result: The person immediately understands.
Only two of these factors -- effort and result -- require
explanation.

Effort. The meaning of superior human state is discussed at length
under Parajika 4. In brief, it covers (a) jhana, (b) the cognitive
powers that can arise as its result, and (c) the transcendent
states.

Factual is not explained in the texts, but probably means factual
from the bhikkhu's own point of view. In other words, whether or not
he has actually attained a superior human state, if he thinks he has
and reports it to an unordained person, he commits an offense all
the same.
To report, says the Vibhanga, means to speak directly of one's own
attainments. To speak indirectly of one's own attainments --
e.g., "The bhikkhu who lives in this dwelling enters jhana at will" -
- entails a dukkata. According to the Commentary, gestures fall
under this rule as well. Thus, if a lay person asks a bhikkhu who
has attained Stream-entry if he has reached any of the noble
attainments, and the bhikkhu nods, his nod would fulfill the factor
of effort here."""

Hi, Nina -

Thank you for asking :

> What are you researching?
> Nina.

My professional areas of research were in statistical forecasting using
control theory and systems optimization. Nowadays I research in
Buddhism and equity investing. Buddhism research is for knowledge,
while equity investing research is for making a living.  {:-))


Warm regards,


Tep

==========

Hi Tep,

T: > -- hearing from a buddha or an arahant ( Tep: So we are
hopeless to
> become sotapanna through listening in this life because the next
> Buddha has not yet arrrived and we do not know where an arahant
may be
> found? {:->) )

M: Shall we go looking for one!?

> >M: So I think even though it is possible that listening itself can
> give rise to vimutti as mentioned in the suttas, it must be on
fertile
> soil for it to be practical.
T: > -- the listener's faculties are mature (Tep: How mature?)

M: Mature to the point that they need no further developing and that
all that is reqired is for panna to reach its peak. Conditions more
commonly found in a retreat setting. Saddha to the point of going on
retreat, viriya to the point of keeping mindfulness right through
the day, samadhi to a near jhanic or jhana level. I think this would
be adequate. If this seems impossible you might want to see what
hindrence is active.

> Tep: Math, you are not convinced that having a right view "means
being
> an ariya. True, there are several definitions of "right view". MN
117
> defines two levels (Bhikkhu Bodhi calls them mundane and
supramundane
> right views). Arahant Sariputta Thera in MN9 describes several ways
> (based on the 11 links of the Dependent Originations ) a monk might
> become "one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect
> confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma".

M: Tep, in the Samma ditti sutta sariputta talks of 'he here and now
makes an end of suffering' or 'he entirely abandons the underlying
tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion,
he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I
am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here
and now makes an end of suffering.

This is about an arahath, not a sotapanna.

T:> In MN 2 the right view of a Sotapanna was clearly defined by the
> Buddha based on yoniso-manisikara (wise/appropriate attention) as
follows.
> "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the
origination
> of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way
> leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in
> this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt,
> and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the
> fermentations to be abandoned by seeing."

M: Yes, I agree with this. But it does not speak of Right view, just
yonisomanasikara. But what a find! I knew of this before but i did
not link it up with the factors required to become a sotapanna.
Thank you Tep. It is a mental technique for directing thought in the
right way.

> Tep: The above is the same as dhammanupassana of the ariya-sacca in
> Maha-satipatthana Sutta. I am happily contented with this right
view
> because it assures that the lower three fetters are cut off
> permanently. But a question is : how does one appropriately
attends to
> the four noble truths such that the three fetters can be abandoned
for
> good? Can someone, who understands satipatthana well enough,
explain
> to me how? I remember Dan D. and I tried to answer the "how to"
once,
> but our discussion did not reach an "appropriate" or "wise"
conclusion.

M: Perhaps my answers to Dan might be useful in this regard. We can
discuss it further if you like. There was another sutta by sariputta
where he speaks of what needs to be done for different levels of the
path including the sotapanna stage (all were the same). Do you
remember that sutta?

> I think an answer to the first question above is seen in your
quoted
> Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 46.4.8.

M: I only have a pali version of this and i dont know how to read
pali! Do you have an enlish (or sinhala) translation?

> >M: when one listens to the Dhamma attentively,  the 5 hindrances
> (nivarana) do not exist and the 7 factors of  enlightenment
> (bojjhanga) are complete. These are the conditions to  become an
> Ariya. Therefore, if we listen to the Dhamma with proper  attention
> (yoniso manasikara) we can become Ariyas.

M: Tep, i think you said this, not me! Is this from the same sutta?

> Tep: It seems to me that listening attentively is eqivalent to
yoniso
> manasikara of the four noble truth as stated in MN 2. But
listening to
> whom (no arahant or a Buddha is available)? Is reading of that
sutta
> (SN 46.4.8) sufficient?

M: My friend, like i said those factors dont automatically pop out
of nowhere when listening to a Buddha or anyone else. Sometimes
there will be only one person who can understand right away. Going
on retreat, meditation, development of samadhi and vipassana
(panna), then reading/listening to suttas/sermons, is the best
chance there is IMO. (which is what those monks were doing when they
become sotapannas in droves in the suttas)

Good topic to discuss Tep. Thanks for it.

take care

Matheesha

Hi RobertK,

> Sutta Nipata
> "Whoever boasts to others, unasked,
> of his practices, precepts,
> is, say the skilled,
> ignoble by nature --
>     he who speaks of himself
>     of his own accord."
> Robertk

M: I agree. We need to be careful of those who claim such things. If
someone comes out of nowhere and says s/he is capable of this, knows
that, this path is impossible, that path is possible, we need to be
careful. We need to apply it to the dhamma-vinaya and see if what
they say is acurate. We also need to keep in mind the slight chance
that they might be right - I'm reminded of the 5 ascetics who
rejected claims of the buddha as to his enlightenment ie not have a
dogmatic closed mind, but be careful and wise.

No one tells of these things easily. It might be done with a purpose
other than conceit, which is easy to project. Its a sacrifice with
an objective in mind. No one is enlightened.
---------------
"Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he
is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he
obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant
mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state
about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of
the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the
bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again
destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
-----------
The Buddha once stated that Ugga [anagamin] was possessed of eight
special and wonderful qualities. One of the monks, hearing the
Buddha's statement, went to Ugga and asked him what these qualities
were. Ugga replied that he was not aware of what the Buddha had in
mind and proceeded to explain eight wonderful things that had
happened to him, viz.:
----------

metta

Matheesha

Is there an Abhidhamma on-line course available?

AMcA

Hi Tep,
I like your answer.
Nina
op 01-01-2006 15:50 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:

> Buddhism research is for knowledge,
> while equity investing research is for making a living.

Hallo Jon

Again I changed the name of the thread, it's really a dynamic one;
this time because you introduced the concept 'accumulated'

Jon: "Well, I don't see it that way. My question is simply this: If
there is an inclination to do an unwholesome act of speech or body,
but then there is the refraining from doing that, can this be an
instance of kusala (different from all other instances of kusala)?

Joop: If you want an answer: NO; because I'm not refraining to do
negative but the feeling of urgency to to positive, that is: to
behave in an ethical way.

=====================================================
Jon: "You mention 'negative' inclination; do you mean 'aksuala', or
something else?"

Joop: Of course, what else? As far as I understand the
concepts 'kusala' and 'akusala', I translate in my shorthand them
as 'negative' and 'positive'. But don't forget: I didn't start the
use of the term 'inclination', because I don't know if a human being
has an inclination at all.
(see below)

=====================================================
Joop (some days ago)>But why make a detour of the double negation?
Why talk
>about "refraining from doing unwholesome";

Jon: "The double negative is a matter of linguistic expression and
thus, in the present context, of form rather than substance. The
substance here, as I see it, is the underlying behavioural situation
and its accompanying mental state (if you have a better description
of that particular situation, by all means share it with us!).

Joop: "the underlying behavioural situation" as you label it, is to
have a ethical correct job (right livelihood not as a moment but as a
NEP-aspect)
In the second place, the difference is more than only linguistic.
When I describe something positive, I don't need to assume something
negative first and then negate it; I don't know it that something
negative (akusala) exists at all.
A question to you: is for you the difference kusala - akusala only
linguistic?

====================================================
Jon: " I don't think these 'philosophical' questions really come into
it! (My own view: All individuals other than the arahant have both
wholesome and unwholesome accumulated tendencies.)

Joop: About the term 'accumulated' or 'accumulations' I have sone
some research. As Tep wrote some days ago, is used in the
commentaries (and not in the Tipitaka, that makes it already suspect)
only combined with the kamma-concept.

In Nyanatiloka Dictionary:
áyúhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial
literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities
(karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhára; s. paticca-samuppáda),
being the bases of future rebirth. " 'Accumulation', is a name for
the karma-formations, and signifies those volitions (cetaná) which
arise at the performance of a karma, first while thinking 'I will
give alms', and then while actually giving alms (e.g.) for one month
or a year. The volition, however, at the time when one is handing the
alms over to the recipient; is called karma-process (kamma-bhava, s.
Vis.M. XVII, IX, X). Or, the volitions during the first six impulsive-
moments (javana, q.v.) depending on one and the same state of
advertence (ávajjana, s. viññána-kicca), these are called the karma-
formations, whilst the 7th impulsive moment is called the karma-
process (kamma-bhava).... Or, each volition is called 'karma-process'
and the accumulation connected with it, 'karma-formation'. " (Vis.M.
XVII). Cf. paticca-samuppáda (2, 10) - (App.).

In #1062  of okt 2000  (nothing is permanent but you are
consistent !!!) you explain:

"Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so long that we
forget they are not standard use! Thanks for raising this.
"Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various tendencies we
all have that make up the distinct personality and character by which
we are conventionally known. For example, our preferences for
particular tastes or colours, our good and bad qualities, the way we
walk and talk and so on. Being easily angered or being interested in
the dhamma would be other examples. They are called accumulations
because, of course, they have been accumulated during the past.
The defilements (kilesas) are those akusala inclinations we have
accumulated. They come in
different strengths, the subtle ones being the latent tendencies
referred to in Kom's post.
Actually, since every citta is conditioned (in among other ways) by
the citta which immediately precedes it, each citta contains the sum
of all previous cittas. So in fact there is much more that is
accumulated than the tendencies I have referred to."

This is more then the use of the term as in the Nyatiloka-quote: it's
overstretching the meaning.
It sounds to me as the existence of an innate personality (do I hear
somebody say: this is atta-belief?)
And if isn't innate but has only to do with this life, then
accumulations like you (and Nina) use them, then "accumulations" can
be translated in psychological terms as "personality traits":
positive traits and negative traits. I'm not enthouastic about this
kind of psychology.

Metta

Joop

Dear Group Members,

Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly
introduce myself.  I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over the
past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition.  I've found
a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the
Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like.  It was suggested
to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum on
e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a more
focused learning regarding these interests.

Thanks for your consideration.  I'll shadow for awhile before actually
wading in, if you don't mind.

Sincerely,

Scott.

Hi, Matheesha -

To facilitate the discussion that is getting more lengthy, let me divide it
into subsets.

(Set 1)
> > Tep: Math, you are not convinced that having a right view "means
> being an ariya. True, there are several definitions of "right view". MN
> 117 defines two levels (Bhikkhu Bodhi calls them mundane and
> supramundane right views). Arahant Sariputta Thera in MN9
describes several ways  (based on the 11 links of the Dependent
Originations ) a monk might  become "one of right view, whose view is
straight, who has perfect  confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived
at this true Dhamma".
>
> M: Tep, in the Samma ditti sutta sariputta talks of 'he here and now
> makes an end of suffering' or 'he entirely abandons the underlying
> tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion,
> he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I
> am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he
> here  and now makes an end of suffering. This is about an arahath,
>  not a sotapanna.
>

Tep: The first right view is not that of the Arahant : "one of right view,
whose view is straight, who has perfect  confidence in the Dhamma,
and has arrived at this true Dhamma"; I have not claimed this right view
to be that of a sotapanna either.  The point I have tried to make is there
are several right views.

..........................
(Set 2)
> > T:  But a question is : how does one appropriately attends to
> > the four noble truths such that the three fetters can be abandoned
> for good?
> >Can someone, who understands satipatthana well enough,
> explain  to me how? I remember Dan D. and I tried to
> >answer the "how to" once,
> > but our discussion did not reach an "appropriate"
> >or "wise" conclusion.
>
> M: Perhaps my answers to Dan might be useful in this regard. We can
> discuss it further if you like. There was another sutta by sariputta
> where he speaks of what needs to be done for different levels of the
> path including the sotapanna stage (all were the same). Do you
> remember that sutta?
>
Tep: No further discussion with Dan is needed, thanks. But if you want
to, please give your answer to the above question (i.e. how does one
appropriately attends to  the four noble truths such that the three fetters
can be abandoned for good? )

I cannot recall the "another sutta" by the Arahant-- I need more details,
please.

..............................
(Set 3)
> > >M: when one listens to the Dhamma attentively,  the 5 hindrances
> > (nivarana) do not exist and the 7 factors of  enlightenment
> > (bojjhanga) are complete. These are the conditions to  become an
> > Ariya. Therefore, if we listen to the Dhamma with proper  attention
> > (yoniso manasikara) we can become Ariyas.
>
> M: Tep, i think you said this, not me! Is this from the same sutta?
>

I am sorry. It was my quote from Dhammavuddho's article that I had
posted for you at the beginning of the discussion.


Warm regards,


Tep

=========

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha"
<dhammachat@h...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tep,
>
> T: > -- hearing from a buddha or an arahant ( Tep: So we are
> hopeless to
> > become sotapanna through listening in this life because the next
> > Buddha has not yet arrrived and we do not know where an arahant
> may be
> > found? {:->) )
>
> M: Shall we go looking for one!?
>
> > >M: So I think even though it is possible that listening itself can
> > give rise to vimutti as mentioned in the suttas, it must be on
> fertile  soil for it to be practical. -- the listener's faculties are mature
(Tep: How mature?)
>
> M: Mature to the point that they need no further developing and that
> all that is reqired is for panna to reach its peak. Conditions more
> commonly found in a retreat setting. Saddha to the point of going on
> retreat, viriya to the point of keeping mindfulness right through
> the day, samadhi to a near jhanic or jhana level. I think this would
> be adequate. If this seems impossible you might want to see what
> hindrence is active.
>
(snipped)

> T:> In MN 2 the right view of a Sotapanna was clearly defined by the
> > Buddha based on yoniso-manisikara (wise/appropriate attention)
as  follows.
> > "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the
> origination  of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way
> > leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in
> > this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt,
> > and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the
> > fermentations to be abandoned by seeing."
>
> M: Yes, I agree with this. But it does not speak of Right view, just
> yonisomanasikara. But what a find! I knew of this before but i did
> not link it up with the factors required to become a sotapanna.
> Thank you Tep. It is a mental technique for directing thought in the
> right way.
>
> > Tep: The above is the same as dhammanupassana of the
ariya-sacca in Maha-satipatthana Sutta. I am happily contented
  with this right  view because it assures that the lower
three fetters are cut off permanently.

(snipped)

> > I think an answer to the first question above is seen in your
> quoted  Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 46.4.8.
>
> M: I only have a pali version of this and i dont know how to read
> pali! Do you have an enlish (or sinhala) translation?
>

(snipped)

> > Tep: It seems to me that listening attentively is eqivalent to
> yoniso  manasikara of the four noble truth as stated in MN 2. But
> listening to  whom (no arahant or a Buddha is available)? Is reading
of that  sutta (SN 46.4.8) sufficient?
>
> M: My friend, like i said those factors dont automatically pop out
> of nowhere when listening to a Buddha or anyone else. Sometimes
> there will be only one person who can understand right away. Going
> on retreat, meditation, development of samadhi and vipassana
> (panna), then reading/listening to suttas/sermons, is the best
> chance there is IMO. (which is what those monks were doing when
they become sotapannas in droves in the suttas)
>
> Good topic to discuss Tep. Thanks for it.
>
> take care
>
> Matheesha
>

"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV

213. 'Order of teaching' is appropriate however; for there are those
people who, while teachable, have fallen into assuming a self among the
five aggregates owing to failure to analyze them; and the Blessed One is
desirous of releasing them from the assumption by getting them to see
how the [seeming] compactness of mass [in the five aggregates] is
resolved; and being desirous of their welfare, he first, for the purpose
of their easy apprehension, taught the materiality aggregate, which is
gross, being the objective field of the eye, etc.; and after that,
feeling, which feels matter as desirable and undesirable; then
perception, which apprehends the aspects of feeling's objective field,
since 'What one feels, that one perceives' (M.i,293); then formations,
which form volitionally through the means of perception; and lastly,
consciousness, which these things beginning with feeling have as their
support, and which dominates them.78
-------------------------
Note 78. 'Consciousness dominates because of the words "Dhammas have
mind as their forerunner" (Dh.1), "Dhammas (states) that have parallel
turn-over with consciousness" (Dhs.1522), and "The king, lord of the six
doors" (?)' (Pm.503).
********************
213. abhedena hi pa~ncasu khandhesu attagaahapatita.m veneyyajana.m
samuuhaghanavinibbhogadassanena attagaahato mocetukaamo bhagavaa
hitakaamo tassa tassa janassa sukhagaha.nattha.m cakkhuaadiinampi
visayabhuuta.m o.laarika.m pa.thama.m ruupakkhandha.m desesi. tato
it.thaani.t.tharuupasa.mvedanika.m vedana.m. ``ya.m vedayati, ta.m
sa~njaanaatii´´ti eva.m vedanaavisayassa aakaaragaahika.m sa~n~na.m.
sa~n~naavasena abhisa"nkhaarake sa"nkhaare. tesa.m vedanaadiina.m
nissaya.m adhipatibhuuta~nca nesa.m vi~n~naa.nanti eva.m taava kamato
vinicchayanayo vi~n~naatabbo.

Dear Scott,
Nice to see you here. Dsg has several members who are interested in
Abhidhamma and Pali.
This link goes to a useful posts file where some of the better posts
from the group are stored.
Robertk
http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MJe4Q9My2D1roIviqOm9LlxbmF9wO9YBIHOuB0q1
zqiC8JLzCQK48VUoWNGC_O1EDVY_Yf4f-
hy2Miq5FNj2bcpjOwU/Useful_Posts_November.htm

In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@s...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Group Members,
>
> Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly
> introduce myself.  I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over
the
> past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition.  I've
found
> a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha,
the
> Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like.  It was
suggested
> to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum on
> e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a more
> focused learning regarding these interests.
>
> Thanks for your consideration.  I'll shadow for awhile before
actually
> wading in, if you don't mind.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Scott.
>

Hello Scott, RobK, all

Rob - I created a tiny url for the link you gave to Scott:
http://tinyurl.com/bjmb4

Welcome to dsg, Scott - hope some of the threads are helpful - and
that those members with knowledge and interest in the third basket
of the Tipitaka will surface after their end of year holidays and
add to any discussions.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...>
wrote:
>
>  Dear Scott,
> Nice to see you here. Dsg has several members who are interested
in
> Abhidhamma and Pali.
> This link goes to a useful posts file where some of the better
posts
> from the group are stored.
> Robertk
>
http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MJe4Q9My2D1roIviqOm9LlxbmF9wO9YBIHOuB0q1
> zqiC8JLzCQK48VUoWNGC_O1EDVY_Yf4f-
> hy2Miq5FNj2bcpjOwU/Useful_Posts_November.htm
>
> In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2"
<scduncan@s...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Group Members,
> >
> > Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly
> > introduce myself.  I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over
> the
> > past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition.  I've
> found
> > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha,
> the
> > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like.  It was
> suggested
> > to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum
on
> > e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a
more
> > focused learning regarding these interests.
> >
> > Thanks for your consideration.  I'll shadow for awhile before
> actually
> > wading in, if you don't mind.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Scott.
> >
>

Friends:
   Wearing away the inner Roots of Evil ceases all Suffering!

   There are, friends, these three kinds of fading away, that are directly
   observable, obviously evident, inviting each & every one to come and see
   for themselves, practical, to be personally experienced by any clever one!
   What three?
   Someone here is & greedy & lustful, and caused by this very greedy lust,
   he comes to harm himself, to harm others, & to harm both himself & others...
   When this greedy lust later is discarded, then does he neither come to harm
   himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ...
   This fading away, caused by wearing away of desire, is directly observable,
   immediate, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, practical,
   freeing, releasing, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!!
   Furthermore:
   Someone here is full of hate & aggression, and caused by this rage of anger,
   he comes to harm himself, to harm others, and to harm both himself & others...
   When this angry hatred later is eliminated, then does he neither come to harm
   himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ...
   This fading away, caused by wearing away of ill-will, is directly observable,
   apparent, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, smoothing,
   soft, sweet, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!!
   Finally:
   Someone here is deluded, dazed & confused, and caused by this very ignorance,
   he comes to harm himself, to harm others, and to harm both himself & others...
   When this lack of understanding later is cleared up, then does he neither come
   to harm himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore
...
   This fading away, caused by wearing away of obscuration, is easily observable,
   actual, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, all
advantageous,
   awakening, opening, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!!
   These, friends, are the three kinds of fading away, that are directly
observable,
   immediately accessible, inviting each & every one to come and see for
themselves,
   practical, applicable, reachable, personally experienceable by any
intelligence...


     Source:
     The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [330-40]
     Section 42: On The 6 Senses. Rasiya: 12.
     http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507
     http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then
will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!!

  Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.

  Friendship is the Greatest ...
  Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!!

  <...>

Hi  Alan McA & all (Rob M*)

--- Alan McAllister <alanmcallister@...> wrote:

> Is there an Abhidhamma on-line course available?
.....
S: How about treating DSG as an ‘on-line course’ in Abhidhamma?

I’d be happy to give you weekly sign-posts and homework assignments!

Ok, let’s start and see how we go:

Session 1

1. Read the following from Nina’s book ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ again
and again and ask questions to the group or raise any points on it for
further discussion/reflection:

http://www.abhidhamma.org/contents.htm

>THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS
There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical
phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience
anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible
object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything.
What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away.

The 'Visuddhimagga' ('Path of Purity', a commentary) explains (Ch. XVIII,
25):

"For this has been said: .
'As with the assembly of parts
The word "chariot" is countenanced,
So, When the khandhas are present,
'A being' is said in common usage' "

(Kindred Sayings I, 135. The five khandhas (aggregates) are nothing else
but nama and rupa. See Ch.2.)

"…So in many hundred suttas there is only
mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being,
not a person. Therefore, just as when the component
parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles...
are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the
mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate
sense, when each part is examined, there is no
chariot, ...so too,... there comes to be the mere
conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate
sense, when each component is examined, there is
no being as a basis for the assumption ' I am' or ' I ' ;
in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality.
The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision."<
*****
2. Go to this link (files section of DSG) and scroll down to Useful Posts
and then down to ‘Abhidhamma – beginners’
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/

Read as many posts as seems helpful to you in this section and again
consider, ask questions or add your comments.
(*Some of them are written by Rob M who is also from Ontario, Canada, like
you).

If this approach is of any use to you, then either I or someone else will
be happy to give you (anyone else) a Session 2 plus assignments next week
– say next Monday! I hope others will reply or respond to any questions or
comments you give in the meantime.

I look forward to any feedback.

Metta,

Sarah
=======

Hello Scott,
welcome here. If you are interested in abhidhamma, on Rob K's web you can
find my Abhidhamma in Daily Life as an intro.
<http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html>

I think questions by beginners are always very useful to everybody, since
all of us are beginners. I would like to encourage you to pose any question
that comes up.
Best wishes,
Nina.
op 01-01-2006 15:36 schreef scottduncan2 op scduncan@...:
   I've found
> a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the
> Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like.

Hi Sarah, Alan McA, Scott,
Happy to give any sessions, assignments,
Nina.
op 02-01-2006 10:10 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...:

> I or someone else will
> be happy to give you (anyone else) a Session 2 plus assignments

Hi Scott, other newbies here,[Connie & Dan*]

--- scottduncan2 <scduncan@...> wrote:

> Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly
> introduce myself.  I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over the
> past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition.  I've found
> a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the
> Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like.
....
S: This already sounds like someone who has been considering quite a lot.
I'm sure you'll be able to help us all in due course too.

Thanks to Rob and Chris for pointing you to the Useful Posts section (U.P.
for short). If you have any trouble with the links, try this one I just
gave:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/

Scroll down to U.P.

I just mentioned 'Abhidhamma- beginners' from it.
There's also a section called 'New to the List & new to Dhamma', but this
isn't you. You'll be able to find the topics you wish to check in due
course. If you find anything especially useful or controversial, please
repost it here for others to comment on or disagree with:-).

May I ask where you live? Anyone snowed in for the long weekend could
spend their time in U.P.:-).

I'd also like to give you and any other newbies here, this link:
http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/

This is where the back-up of the DSG archives are kept as a security
measure and where the entire archives can be downloaded for easy scrolling
(without a need for an internet connection)or for searching.

[I'd like to give a public thanks to Connie for all her hard work behind
the scenes in this department. *Dan, yes Kom was our pillar of strength
for many years and like you, we hope to see him back. No word since he
ordained. Connie has taken over in this regard. Connie, also appreciating
your good discussions with James and Joop and others].

Scott, in due course, you may also like to listen to some of the audio
discussions. Some of us have been discussing the first one you come to
(July 2001 with Erik, a DSG member, and A.Sujin).
.....
>It was suggested
> to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum on
> e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a more
> focused learning regarding these interests.
>
> Thanks for your consideration.  I'll shadow for awhile before actually
> wading in, if you don't mind.
....
S: If it's difficult to understand what the current threads are on about
mid-stream, please consider starting your own anytime.

For anyone who prefers to see their in-box DSG mail neatly stacked in
threads (and with the best search function of course), consider using a
Gmail account to receive the mail. (I have one which I just use -in
addition to my yahoo account- just for finding posts and searching.) It
needs an invite which is simple - just ask Jon or I or Ven Samahita for
one.

Scott, I've rambled into other areas for other people in this post too.

Hope you find it worthwhile here and look forward to more discussion later
in this new year.

Metta,

Sarah
========

Hi Alan McA,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
<sarahprocterabbott@y...> wrote:
> (*Some of them are written by Rob M who is also from Ontario, Canada,
like
> you).

I would love to help you progress with your study of the Abhidhamma.
Though I was born and raised in Toronto and envions (in what part of
Ontario do you live?), I now live in Malaysia and teach an Abhidhamma
course each Sunday.

Metta,
Rob M :-)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
<sarahprocterabbott@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Scott, other newbies here,[Connie & Dan*]
>
> --- scottduncan2 <scduncan@s...> wrote:
>
> > Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly
> > introduce myself.  I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over the
> > past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition.  I've found
> > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the
> > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like.
> ....
> S: This already sounds like someone who has been considering quite a
lot.
> I'm sure you'll be able to help us all in due course too.
<...>
Dear Sarah,

Thanks for your kind welcome.  I'm from Edmonton, Alberta (Canada,
eh.)  Strangely I am not snowed in.  No snow yet.  Weird.  Being
virtually a computer-illiterate I'm not sure what G-mail is but it
sounds good.  Maybe when I know what it is I'll want it.  I'll check
into the links you have taken the time to provide.  Looking forward to
learning . . .

Sincerely,

Scott.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom
<vangorko@x...> wrote:
>
> Hello Scott,
> welcome here. If you are interested in abhidhamma, on Rob K's web
you can
> find my Abhidhamma in Daily Life as an intro.
> <http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html>
>
> I think questions by beginners are always very useful to everybody,
since
> all of us are beginners. I would like to encourage you to pose any
question
> that comes up.
> Best wishes,
> Nina.
> op 01-01-2006 15:36 schreef scottduncan2 op scduncan@s...:
>   I've found
> > a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the
> > Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like.
>
Dear Nina,

Thank you for your welcome.  I have been reading your Abhidhamma in
Daily Life.  There is a lot in it, well and densely packed, clearly
written.  Very beautiful stuff if I may put it so.  I'll come up with
a question to post in the near future.

Sincerely,

Scott.

Dear Group,

The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na.  I
understand that it is elementary cognition, arises with every citta,
and functions as "memory."  I read how this latter function is
analogised to be about a "marking" of the object, and then
re-cognising the object by virtue of these marks; there is the
carpenter's marking of wood analogy.  I've come across the Pali term
"nimittakara.na" which, I think, refers to this marking process.

What I wonder about, given that each citta arises out of nothing and
comletely falls away, is how the "marks" persist.  Do they remain a
function of the object, that is inherent to each new moment of
awareness of a given object?  I've come across the Pali term (forgive
my spelling) "attita-gaha.na," which seems to label a phase of
"grasping to the past."

I would appreciate a chance to learn how properly to see these things.
  Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Scott.

Hi Scott,
op 02-01-2006 14:44 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...:
> The question I have been working on recently relates to sa~n~na.  I
> understand that it is elementary cognition, arises with every citta,
> and functions as "memory."  I read how this latter function is
> analogised to be about a "marking" of the object, and then
> re-cognising the object by virtue of these marks; there is the
> carpenter's marking of wood analogy.
>
> What I wonder about, given that each citta arises out of nothing and
> comletely falls away, is how the "marks" persist.
--------
N: Citta does not arise out of nothing, it arises because of many different
conditions. The previous citta that has fallen away conditions the arising
of the following citta by contiguity-condiiton. This is only one of the many
conditions. Life is an uninterrupted series of cittas succeeding one
another, from birth to death.
Saññaa is a cetasika, mental factor, accompanying each citta and it arises
and falls away with citta. 'You' can remember what you just read here
before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can read, recognize
letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa.
This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' from
one citta to the next one.
When you recognize something or someone it is not you who does so, but
saññaa.
--------
Scott: I've come across the Pali term
> "nimittakara.na" which, I think, refers to this marking process.
------
N: A specific meaning in the Commentary: a note by Ven. Bodhi:
  MA interprets the phrase 'maker of signs' (nimitta-kara.na) to mean
that lust, hate, and delusion brand a person a worldling or a noble one,
as lustful, hating, or deluded....
This in contrast to the signless, nibbaana.
But here we have gone away from our subject.

Here are just a few basic points. There is much more to say about saññaa, it
is one of the khandhas, a separate khandha.
In the Visuddhimagga series soon coming up why it is a separate khandha.
*****
Nina.

Hi, Nina (and Scott) -

In a message dated 1/2/06 9:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
vangorko@... writes:

> 'You' can remember what you just read here
> before, because of saññaa that marks and remembers. You can read, recognize
> letters, finish reading sentences because of saññaa.
> This is possible because all experiences are as it were 'carried on' from
> one citta to the next one.
>
====================
        Would you please go a bit further into this? In a given citta, as I
understand the particular teaching, the sa~n~na takes the object of that citta
as its object. According to Abhidhamma, what cetasikas are involved with the
"carrying on" of all experiences to a citta? It would seem that there have been
infinitely many experiences in "one's" history. Exactly what cetasikas are
involved that constitute this infinite (or at least huge) storage mechanism?

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


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