Dear Christine,

----------
>  Did the Buddha strongly recommend mastery of the
jhanas, not only as a refuge for here and now, but also
as an essential part of the path?  Are they essential?
What about panna, what about    <snip>
-------------


Some rather broad questions there, Christine? :-)
I see them as an invitation for speculative theorising.
:-)  So here goes:

As you know, there are suttas in which the Buddha
protects the priests of other religions.  In the one I'm
thinking of, he agreed to accept alms from a certain rich
man, on condition that that man continue to support the
priests of his former religion (who had become dependent
upon him).

Doesn't jhana fall into much the same scenario?  Moments
before the Buddha proclaimed his teaching, masters of
jhana were the pinnacle of religious and intellectual
hierarchy.  They could teach a way that led to countless
aeons of bliss. ('immediately followed by rebirth in the
worlds of woe, but let's not be too critical.)

Then, suddenly, there was a totally different Path that
led, not to TEMPORARY release, but to FINAL release from
dukkha.  So who needs jhana masters?

The Buddha spoke highly of them, he preached his first
discourses to them and he encouraged them to continue
their practices.  He explained the ways in which an
arahant with jhana attainment, was superior to an arahant
without.

But he also explained that, at Parinibbana, all arahants
were equal. This included the omniscient Tathagatha,
right down(!) to 'attainers by bare insight.'

So how can there be any question as to which way we
should go?  I think it's a matter of samvega (sense of
urgency).  Do we have the time to learn jhana? We could die
tomorrow, who knows when we will have another opportunity
to hear the Dhamma?

Had we the accumulations for jhana, our opportunity would
be less tenuous.  (I can't quote any sources for this, by
the way.) In our preliminary practice, we would have
developed, for example, the ability to remember past
lives.  So we would have the luxury of time.  In such a
case, it would be quite appropriate that we emulate the
Buddha more closely and that we develop psychic powers.
In so doing, we could both pay more respect and be better
able to pass on the teaching.

I think it's safe to say that you and I are not such
highly developed beings -- but are any of us?

If, twenty-six centuries ago, a person had the
accumulations for jhana, wouldn't he/she have followed
the Eight-fold Path to Parinibana by now?  (The obvious
exception would be a Bodhisattha, of course.)

Since that time, would anyone have *acquired*
accumulations for jhana? -- in preference to developing
vipassana?  I don't see why.  So I wonder, today, in this
human realm, is the real jhana taught or practised by
anyone?(!)


Kind regards,
Ken H

Hi Sukin,

> >                                        In other words, I
> > wonder if all concepts of one's own self are akusala.(?)
>
>
> What about if one is wisely reflecting on the benefit of moderation
> in eating, and then one turns the attention to applying it to
> oneself?
>

Ah, well, that may be the one exception :-)

Trying to support my proposition though, I wonder why one
would turn the attention to oneself.  Isn't it enough to
UNDERSTAND the benefits of moderation in eating?
Thoughts of benefiting oneself, by practising moderation
have an unseemly hint of self-centredness.  :-)

Kind regards,
Ken H

Dear Group,

I will be attending a lecture on Monday on Vipassana given by
Bhikkhuni Kusuma.
I would like to know how one addresses a Bhikkhuni?

"Bhikkhuni Kusuma is a fully ordained nun in the Theravada
tradition. This caused much controversy which is still not resolved
today. The ordination of women in the Theravada tradition was
brought to Sri Lanka in the third century BC by Ven Sanghamitta. The
lineage mysteriously died out in Sri Lanka 1000 years ago. However,
Sri Lankan bhikkhunis had migrated to China and then to Korea.
Bhikkhuni Kusuma was ordained through the lineage in Korea and is now
a leader in the international movement to revive the ordination of
women in the Theravada tradition. She is a Pali scholar, with a PhD
in the bhikkhuni vinaya and is head of the Ayya Khema International
Buddha Mandir in Sri Lanka. Prior to ordaining, Bhikkhuni taught
English at university in Sri Lanka for 20 years, and raised 6
children. She is a kind, wise and very warm person."

metta,
Christine

Hi Ken,

I have a feeling that you are absolutely right in this, though it is not very
clear in my mind. I feel it has to do with seperate moments with no
need to refer to the self. Seeing the danger in overeating is seeing the
danger in over eating, it has nothing to do with 'self'. Am I on the right
track?
I guess I might have been able to understand it more readily had I ever
had any moments of kusasla with respect to eating!! :-)

This leads me to something I have been thinking about.
Conventionally we say things like, "I've learnt a lesson." In other
religions we learn about kusala and akusala, but always in relation
to 'self'. We think that if we learn from past akusala action or from what
the religions say about right conduct, we are 'improving' ourselves.
My question is, "Are we?" Can there be any uprooting of kilesas without
satipatthana and vipassana? Can there be the correct course of action
without right view?

Maybe I should think more about this before putting forward the
questions. But maybe I'll find out more about mana! :-)

Metta,
Sukin.

Hi, Sukin -

In a message dated 5/1/03 1:23:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukin@...
writes:

>
> Hi Howard, Mike (and Victor),
>
> >==========================
> >    I certainly don't think they were all jhana "masters"! I suspect
> that
> >many had some jhana experience, but most didn't have even that. I
> think that
> >stream entry is likely possible without any jhana experience, though
> >access-level concentration is surely needed.
> >    I do think that attaining the jhanas, even "mastering" them is a
> >possibility for many laypersons in many parts of today's world, due to
> the
> >relatively easier life the mass of people have today compared to 2500
> years
> >ago. There are a good number of people fortunate enough to have
> the time and
> >the financial wherewithal to attend many and lengthy meditation
> retreats, and
> >to maintain a significant meditation practice on an ongoing basis
> throughout
> >their life. Among these will be some with the "accumulations"
> conducive to
> >mastering the jhanas. But, as I said, I do think that stream entry is a
> >possibility even without jhana, and - hey! - obtaining stream entry
> wouldn't
> >be a bad achievement for a lifetime, would it? (Let's not worry about
> >becoming arahants at this point! ;-))
> ======================
>
> But isn't jhana about relinquishing worldly attachment, seeing danger in
> it and the benefit of kusala?
>
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
        Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool.
-------------------------------------------------------
    Is it just about sitting down because of >
> previous accumulations and habit?
-------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
        For any endeavor, we do better at what we are better suited for.
Obviously, howver, as the old saying goes, "practice makes perfect."
------------------------------------------------------
    How will a person who *feels* >
> secure and comfortable with regard to the world know detachment? In
> this case insecurity and security is just two sides of  the same coin, no?
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
        The point is that jhana practice takes lots of time. A person who
leads a life that is a harsh, desperate battle for survival will not have
that opportunity. Isn't that rather obvious? Even in the best of times, the
Buddha saw being a "full-time practitioner," a bhikkhu, as optimal.
------------------------------------------------------

>
> And it seems you are implying that a stream enterer will have to
> practice jhana if he wants to reach higher levels. But I thought that a
> stream enterer is assured of at most seven lives, no?
>
----------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
        I don't know. Perhaps a stream enterer is in a better position to
master jhanas. But I have read that it is possible to fall away from being a
stream enterer. What have you read in that regard?
---------------------------------------------------------
    If you are saying >
> that he will by conditions automatically practice jhana, then what about
> the fact that he has overcome silabattaparamasa?
>
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
         If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as recommeneded again
and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes an attachment
to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined the first 4
jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of the eightfold
noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the mark.
-----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hope I have not misunderstood you.
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
        I don't know. I hope I *have* misunderstood you.
-----------------------------------------------------------

>
> Metta,
> Sukin.
>
>
==========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Howard,

----- Original Message -----
From: <upasaka@...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas


> Hi, Mike (and Victor) -
>
> In a message dated 4/30/03 11:05:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mlnease@... writes:
>
> >
> > Dear Howard and Victor,
> >
> > First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the quality
of
> > your posts.  That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!), as I
> > certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas.  Assuming you're
right,
> > though, let me ask this:  Do you think the great many laypeople in the
> > suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters?
Certainly
> > the path arose and was perfected in them.
> >
> > In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the Buddha
> > instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed).  My
> > impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and that
> > 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena.  In fact,
it
> > has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's
(vastly)
> > favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a
> > layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of
conduct
> > (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment for
jhaana
> > bhavana.
> >
> > So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these laypeople
> > jhaana masters?
> >
> > mike
> >
> ==========================
>        I certainly don't think they were all jhana "masters"! I suspect
that
> many had some jhana experience, but most didn't have even that.

This is the way it seems to me, too.

> I think that
> stream entry is likely possible without any jhana experience, though
> access-level concentration is surely needed.

Again, this seems just right to me.

>        I do think that attaining the jhanas, even "mastering" them is a
> possibility for many laypersons in many parts of today's world, due to the
> relatively easier life the mass of people have today compared to 2500
years
> ago.

Maybe so, I can't tell about this.

> There are a good number of people fortunate enough to have the time and
> the financial wherewithal to attend many and lengthy meditation retreats,
and
> to maintain a significant meditation practice on an ongoing basis
throughout
> their life. Among these will be some with the "accumulations" conducive to
> mastering the jhanas. But, as I said, I do think that stream entry is a
> possibility even without jhana, and - hey! - obtaining stream entry
wouldn't
> be a bad achievement for a lifetime, would it?

Absolutely.

> (Let's not worry about
> becoming arahants at this point! ;-))

Quite right!  I guess I had misunderstood your and Victor's posts to say
that mastery of jhaana was a prerequisite to (or at least an essential
component of, as the eighth factor) the arising of the path.  Thanks for the
clarification (what a relief!).

Mike

> With metta,
> Howard
>
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
bubble
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)

Dear Nina and RobM,

Just quickly--yes, of course, it's the other cittas in a process.  I don't
habitually think of 'processes' because I have no insight into this (and
only fairly weak theoretical knowledge)--so my conceptualization of
vi~n~naa.na is grossly undersimplified.

Thanks for the reminders.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing only sees.


Dear Rob M,
Thank you very much.
I just have one point that puzzles me somewhat:as I understand it, the other
cittas in the eye-door process also experience visible object, not a mental
image. I remember I had a conversation about this or something similar with
Howard. It is just the term mental image.
Also in the subsequent mind-door process the object is visible object, not a
mental image. There was some discussion about this before in view of
vipassana nana: it is visible object that is realized by insight knowledge
through the mind-door, in a mind-door process. It knows through the
mind-door nama as nama and rupa as rupa, not a mental image of rupa.
It helps to differentiate the functions of physical base, vatthu and
doorway, dvara. I see it more this way: cittas know on object through a
doorway, I would not stress: they access it through a base, since this is
only the place of origin of the citta, although it is the same rupa in the
case of seeing, namely the eyesense. I would not use the word  mindbase for
the physical base of cittas, since this is also the word used for
manaayaatana. If you like to avoid the word heart base, you could say, the
rupa which is the base for those cittas.
After seeing has seen visible object it is succeeded by other cittas which
also experience visible object since this has not fallen away, it lasts as
long as seventeen moments of citta, comparing the duration of rupa with the
duration of citta. Thus, it is still experienced, it is not a mental image.
Perhaps Dhamma Issues no.  1 on ayatanas could be of interest here, quoting
only a part :

<Conclusion regarding the first issue: In the five sense-door processes the
eye-sense (cakkhu pasåda rúpa) etc. is åyatana at each moment of citta in
the eye-door process, not only at the moment seeing (cakkhuviññåna) arises.

The reason for this conclusion is given by the ³Dispeller of Delusion²,
Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), and the Visuddhimagga (XV, 10). We
read in the ³Visuddhimagga²: ³For only the åyatana of the eye-base is the
door of arising, and only the åyatana of visible object is the object of the
consciousness group (viññåna kåya) comprised in a cognitive series
containing eye-consciousness.²
This shows that the rúpa of eyesense (cakkhuppasåda rúpa) is the eye-door
and the åyatana of the eye (cakkhåyatana) at each moment of citta in the
eye-door process and that evenso visible object is the åyatana of visible
object (rúpåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process. The
reason is that both the eye-sense and the visible object are realities which
have not fallen away yet and that they are ³associating² at each moment of
citta of the eye-door process.>

Nina.

op 29-04-2003 06:25 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...:

> The seeing consciousness citta is the only citta in the
> sense door citta process that "directly" touches the rupa (visible
> object); the subsequent cittas in the same sense door citta process
> only access a mental image (through the mind-base).
> - In the case of the remaining 16 cittas, the object must be
> accessed through the mind-base. For these cittas, the object is a
> mental image. This is a "less direct" connection than occurs with
> the seeing consciousness, so there is a need for the cetasiaka
> vitakka "to provide an introduction to the object" and there is a
> need for the cetasika vicara to "sustain connection with the object".




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Dear Jon,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
>
>S: I know you are setting me up. I am a willing victim. :)
>
>J: Yes, I should tread carefully, if I were you ...

S: ;-)


> J: Yes, but may I ask, Does a computer arise, and if so, what are
>  some
>  of the conditions for its arising (that cause it to arise)?
>
> S: Yes. It does arise.
>
>  Here are some of the conditions for it arising:
>  1. the intention to build a computer;
>  2. the availability of the necessary materials and components
>  for building a computer;
>  3. the facilities;
>  4. and the knowledge of building a computer.
>
> J: But is this an instance of what the Buddha was talking about
when he
> spoke of all 'sankhara'/'conditioned dhammas' being conditioned?

S: Of course not.  But they condition the computer, don't you agree?

> J: The knowledge that a computer is built from parts and did not
> spontaneously come into existence as an assembled whole is not the
> kind of knowledge that is peculiar to the teaching of a Buddha.

S: I agree.

> J: To my understanding, the arising and falling away that the Buddha
> talked about in suttas such as M.148 quoted by Swee Boon recently is
> momentary rising and falling away, something that is not at all
> apparent to one who has not developed insight into the true nature
of
> dhammas/fundamental phenomena.

S: I agree.

> J: So I woud say that we need to distinguish between conventional
ideas
> of impermanence (or conditioned nature), and impermanence (or
> conditioned nature) in the ultimate sense as taught by the Buddha.

S: The thought of conventional impermanence often triggers insight.
It has its place in developing insight.  It should not be regarded as
something that will hinder insight.

In the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117), it is said:

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts:
There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit,
resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right
view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit,
& results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered,
what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions.
There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There
are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives
who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the
next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This
is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results
in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is without fermentations,
transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of
discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a
factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing
the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from
fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the
right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of
the path.


So, one should not disregard conventional right view.


smallchap

ps. During "insight meditation",  with the arising of insight
knowledge, one can "see" or "feel" (not thinking! Because it is
impossible to think when samadhi is strong) the arising and falling
of the khandhas and directly know them as anicca, dukkha and anatta.

Dear Nina,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...>
wrote:
  Maybe someone else knows a reason?
> I am interested. Could there be an exception or a special reason
for this
> case?

I discussed it with my teacher some years ago.  He said it could be
due to Suddhodana's extra-ordinary accumulation (Parami) but it was
not conclusive.

Do you have a text?
> I read in Pali Proper Names, II, p. 1201: when he was about to die,
the
> Buddha came from Vesali to see him and preach to him, and
Suddhodana became
> an arahat and died as a lay arahat. It does not say about a week.
We do not
> know how long he was on his death bed.

I read it from Narada Thera's "The Buddha and His Teaching" ch. 8 (he
wrote "A Manual of Abhidhamma") but unfortunately no reference was
given. The Pali Proper Names points to Therigatha Commentery 141.
You may want to check it out.  I have no access to it neither can I
read Pali.

smallchap

m. nease wrote:

> Dear Howard and Victor,
>
> First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the quality of
> your posts.  That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!), as I
> certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas.  Assuming you're right,
> though, let me ask this:  Do you think the great many laypeople in the
> suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters?  Certainly
> the path arose and was perfected in them.
>
> In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the Buddha
> instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed).  My
> impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and that
> 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena.  In fact, it
> has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's (vastly)
> favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a
> layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of conduct
> (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment for jhaana
> bhavana.
>
> So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these laypeople
> jhaana masters?

The discussion of jhanas has been occurring across multiple lists for
the past few weeks.  Here is a post that I made to the dhamma-list last
week that may be of some help in describing the type of "momentary
concentration" that the author of the referenced article believes
"fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle":

-----
I doubt we will resolve the perennial question of jhanic v. insight
practices within Buddhism, but you might be interested in the article on
the Jhanas at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html (a
theravadin site) that discusses the relationship between the two
approaches.  I read the full article to stand for the following
propositions;

1. The jhanas are neither necessary nor sufficient for awakening, but
can be an effective vehicle for many to develop the necessary basis of
concentration for insight.

2. Insight meditation, while requiring a degree of concentration, does
not require formal jhanic practices.  The "momentary concentration" of
the insight approach "fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of
the serenity vehicle."

I personally do not do any jhana type meditation, but I have no reason
to doubt that many can benefit from this approach as long as it is
understood as providing a basis for insight and not as an end unto itself.

An excerpt from the article on the Jhanas is as follows:

---------
   The Theravada tradition recognizes two alternative approaches to the
development of wisdom, between which practitioners are free to choose
according to their aptitude and propensity. These two approaches are the
vehicle of serenity (samathayana) and the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayana). The meditators who follow them are called,
respectively, the samathayanika, "one who makes serenity his vehicle,"
and the vipassanayanika, "one who makes insight his vehicle." Since both
vehicles, despite their names, are approaches to developing insight, to
prevent misunderstanding the latter type of meditator is sometimes
called a suddhavipassanayanika, "one who makes bare insight his
vehicle," or a sukkhavipassaka, "a dry-insight worker." Though all three
terms appear initially in the commentaries rather than in the suttas,
the recognition of the two vehicles seems implicit in a number of
canonical passages.

The samathayanika is a meditator who first attains access concentration
or one of the eight mundane jhanas, then emerges and uses his attainment
as a basis for cultivating insight until he arrives at the supramundane
path. In contrast, the vipassanayanika does not attain mundane jhana
prior to practicing insight contemplation, or if he does, does not use
it as an instrument for cultivating insight. Instead, without entering
and emerging from jhana, he proceeds directly to insight contemplation
on mental and material phenomena and by means of this bare insight he
reaches the noble path. For both kinds of meditator the experience of
the path in any of its four stages always occurs at a level of jhanic
intensity and thus necessarily includes supramundane jhana under the
heading of right concentration (samma samadhi), the eighth factor of the
Noble Eightfold Path.

The classical source for the distinction between the two vehicles of
serenity and insight is the Visuddhimagga where it is explained that
when a meditator begins the development of wisdom "if firstly, his
vehicle is serenity, [he] should emerge from any fine-material or
immaterial jhana except the base consisting of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and he should discern, according
to characteristic, function, etc. the jhana factors consisting of
applied thought, etc. and the states associated with them" (Vism. 557;
PP679-80). Other commentarial passages allow access concentration to
suffice for the vehicle of serenity, but the last immaterial jhana is
excluded because its factors are too subtle to be discerned. The
meditator whose vehicle is pure insight, on the other hand, is advised
to start directly by discerning material and mental phenomena, beginning
with the four elements, without utilizing a jhana for this purpose
(Vism. 558; PP.680). Thus the samathayanika first attains access
concentration or mundane jhana and then develops insight knowledge, by
means of which he reaches the supramundane path containing wisdom under
the heading of right view, and supramundane jhana under the heading of
right concentration. The vipassanayanika, in contrast, skips over
mundane jhana and goes directly into insight contemplation. When he
reaches the end of the progression of insight knowledge he arrives at
the supramundane path which, as in the previous case, brings together
wisdom with supramundane jhana. This jhana counts as his accomplishment
of serenity.

For a meditator following the vehicle of serenity the attainment of
jhana fulfills two functions: first, it produces a basis of mental
purity and inner collectedness needed for undertaking the work of
insight contemplation; and second, it serves as an object to be examined
with insight in order to discern the three characteristics of
impermanence, suffering and non-self. Jhana accomplishes the first
function by providing a powerful instrument for overcoming the five
hindrances. As we have seen, for wisdom to arise the mind must first be
concentrated well, and to be concentrated well it must be freed from the
hindrances, a task accomplished pre-eminently by the attainment of
jhana. Though access concentration will keep the hindrances at bay,
jhana will ensure that they are removed to a much safer distance.

In their capacity for producing concentration the jhanas are called the
basis (pada) for insight, and that particular jhana a meditator enters
and emerges from before commencing his practice of insight is designated
his padakajjhana, the basic or foundational jhana. Insight cannot be
practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires
investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is
immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana
the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity
that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight.

The jhanas also enter into the samathayanika's practice in second
capacity, that is, as objects for scrutinization by insight. The
practice of insight consists essentially in the examination of mental
and physical phenomena to discover their marks of impermanence,
suffering and non-self. The jhanas a meditator attains provide him with
a readily available and strikingly clear object in which to seek out the
three characteristics. After emerging from a jhana the meditator will
proceed to examine the jhanic consciousness and to discern the way it
exemplifies the three universal marks. This process is called
sammasanañana, "comprehension knowledge," and the jhana subject to such
treatment is termed sammasitajjhana, "the comprehended jhana" (Vism.
607-11; PP.706-10). Though the basic jhana and the comprehended jhana
will often be the same, the two do not necessarily coincide. A meditator
cannot practice comprehension on a jhana higher than he is capable of
attaining, but one who uses a higher jhana as his padakajjhana can still
practice insight comprehension on a lower jhana which he has previously
attained and mastered. The admitted difference between the padakajjhana
and the sammasitajjhana leads to discrepant theories about the
supramundane concentration of the noble path, as we will see.

Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika
meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the
difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a
basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know
things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what
concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a
type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption
concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary
concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary
concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a
current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows
from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining
a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify
the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the
samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight,
but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in
the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind
upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of
insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but
develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity.
Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five
aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment
acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his
investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function
as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of
mental clarity needed for insight to emerge.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch5.2

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lee Dillion
<leedillion@c...> wrote:
> m. nease wrote:
>
> > Dear Howard and Victor,
> >
> > First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the
quality of
> > your posts.  That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!),
as I
> > certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas.  Assuming
you're right,
> > though, let me ask this:  Do you think the great many laypeople
in the
> > suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters?
Certainly
> > the path arose and was perfected in them.
> >
> > In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the
Buddha
> > instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed).
My
> > impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and
that
> > 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena.  In
fact, it
> > has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's
(vastly)
> > favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a
> > layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of
conduct
> > (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment
for jhaana
> > bhavana.
> >
> > So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these
laypeople
> > jhaana masters?
>
> The discussion of jhanas has been occurring across multiple lists
for
> the past few weeks.  Here is a post that I made to the dhamma-list
last
> week that may be of some help in describing the type of "momentary
> concentration" that the author of the referenced article believes
> "fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity
vehicle":
>
> -----
> I doubt we will resolve the perennial question of jhanic v. insight
> practices within Buddhism, but you might be interested in the
article on
> the Jhanas at
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html (a
> theravadin site) that discusses the relationship between the two
> approaches.  I read the full article to stand for the following
> propositions;
>
> 1. The jhanas are neither necessary nor sufficient for awakening,
but
> can be an effective vehicle for many to develop the necessary basis
of
> concentration for insight.
>
> 2. Insight meditation, while requiring a degree of concentration,
does
> not require formal jhanic practices.  The "momentary concentration"
of
> the insight approach "fulfills the same function as the basic jhana
of
> the serenity vehicle."
>
> I personally do not do any jhana type meditation, but I have no
reason
> to doubt that many can benefit from this approach as long as it is
> understood as providing a basis for insight and not as an end unto
itself.
>
> An excerpt from the article on the Jhanas is as follows:
>
> ---------
>   The Theravada tradition recognizes two alternative approaches to
the
> development of wisdom, between which practitioners are free to
choose
> according to their aptitude and propensity. These two approaches
are the
> vehicle of serenity (samathayana) and the vehicle of insight
> (vipassanayana). The meditators who follow them are called,
> respectively, the samathayanika, "one who makes serenity his
vehicle,"
> and the vipassanayanika, "one who makes insight his vehicle." Since
both
> vehicles, despite their names, are approaches to developing
insight, to
> prevent misunderstanding the latter type of meditator is sometimes
> called a suddhavipassanayanika, "one who makes bare insight his
> vehicle," or a sukkhavipassaka, "a dry-insight worker." Though all
three
> terms appear initially in the commentaries rather than in the
suttas,
> the recognition of the two vehicles seems implicit in a number of
> canonical passages.
>
> The samathayanika is a meditator who first attains access
concentration
> or one of the eight mundane jhanas, then emerges and uses his
attainment
> as a basis for cultivating insight until he arrives at the
supramundane
> path. In contrast, the vipassanayanika does not attain mundane
jhana
> prior to practicing insight contemplation, or if he does, does not
use
> it as an instrument for cultivating insight. Instead, without
entering
> and emerging from jhana, he proceeds directly to insight
contemplation
> on mental and material phenomena and by means of this bare insight
he
> reaches the noble path. For both kinds of meditator the experience
of
> the path in any of its four stages always occurs at a level of
jhanic
> intensity and thus necessarily includes supramundane jhana under
the
> heading of right concentration (samma samadhi), the eighth factor
of the
> Noble Eightfold Path.
>
> The classical source for the distinction between the two vehicles
of
> serenity and insight is the Visuddhimagga where it is explained
that
> when a meditator begins the development of wisdom "if firstly, his
> vehicle is serenity, [he] should emerge from any fine-material or
> immaterial jhana except the base consisting of
> neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and he should discern,
according
> to characteristic, function, etc. the jhana factors consisting of
> applied thought, etc. and the states associated with them" (Vism.
557;
> PP679-80). Other commentarial passages allow access concentration
to
> suffice for the vehicle of serenity, but the last immaterial jhana
is
> excluded because its factors are too subtle to be discerned. The
> meditator whose vehicle is pure insight, on the other hand, is
advised
> to start directly by discerning material and mental phenomena,
beginning
> with the four elements, without utilizing a jhana for this purpose
> (Vism. 558; PP.680). Thus the samathayanika first attains access
> concentration or mundane jhana and then develops insight knowledge,
by
> means of which he reaches the supramundane path containing wisdom
under
> the heading of right view, and supramundane jhana under the heading
of
> right concentration. The vipassanayanika, in contrast, skips over
> mundane jhana and goes directly into insight contemplation. When he
> reaches the end of the progression of insight knowledge he arrives
at
> the supramundane path which, as in the previous case, brings
together
> wisdom with supramundane jhana. This jhana counts as his
accomplishment
> of serenity.
>
> For a meditator following the vehicle of serenity the attainment of
> jhana fulfills two functions: first, it produces a basis of mental
> purity and inner collectedness needed for undertaking the work of
> insight contemplation; and second, it serves as an object to be
examined
> with insight in order to discern the three characteristics of
> impermanence, suffering and non-self. Jhana accomplishes the first
> function by providing a powerful instrument for overcoming the five
> hindrances. As we have seen, for wisdom to arise the mind must
first be
> concentrated well, and to be concentrated well it must be freed
from the
> hindrances, a task accomplished pre-eminently by the attainment of
> jhana. Though access concentration will keep the hindrances at bay,
> jhana will ensure that they are removed to a much safer distance.
>
> In their capacity for producing concentration the jhanas are called
the
> basis (pada) for insight, and that particular jhana a meditator
enters
> and emerges from before commencing his practice of insight is
designated
> his padakajjhana, the basic or foundational jhana. Insight cannot
be
> practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation
requires
> investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind
is
> immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the
jhana
> the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and
clarity
> that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight.
>
> The jhanas also enter into the samathayanika's practice in second
> capacity, that is, as objects for scrutinization by insight. The
> practice of insight consists essentially in the examination of
mental
> and physical phenomena to discover their marks of impermanence,
> suffering and non-self. The jhanas a meditator attains provide him
with
> a readily available and strikingly clear object in which to seek
out the
> three characteristics. After emerging from a jhana the meditator
will
> proceed to examine the jhanic consciousness and to discern the way
it
> exemplifies the three universal marks. This process is called
> sammasanañana, "comprehension knowledge," and the jhana subject to
such
> treatment is termed sammasitajjhana, "the comprehended jhana"
(Vism.
> 607-11; PP.706-10). Though the basic jhana and the comprehended
jhana
> will often be the same, the two do not necessarily coincide. A
meditator
> cannot practice comprehension on a jhana higher than he is capable
of
> attaining, but one who uses a higher jhana as his padakajjhana can
still
> practice insight comprehension on a lower jhana which he has
previously
> attained and mastered. The admitted difference between the
padakajjhana
> and the sammasitajjhana leads to discrepant theories about the
> supramundane concentration of the noble path, as we will see.
>
> Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika
> meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents
the
> difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a
> basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know
> things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what
> concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in
a
> type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption
> concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity,
called "momentary
> concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary
> concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration
amidst a
> current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which
flows
> from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena,
retaining
> a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to
purify
> the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the
> samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of
insight,
> but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously
in
> the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the
mind
> upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of
> insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training,
but
> develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of
serenity.
> Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the
five
> aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment
> acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his
> investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same
function
> as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the
foundation of
> mental clarity needed for insight to emerge.
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch5.2

I am copying below my post No;21711 , which tried to explain the
place of jhana in the teachings of the Buddha. After reading this,
please say whether, this provided you with the necessary information
or you would like to have further elaboration.

with metta
Yasalalaka

********

I was reading the several posts on Jhana, Samatha, and Meditation.
I was beginning to discuss some of these very same matters with,
Sukin, and he showed a disinclination to continue the discussion with
me and I thought I had stepped on to unknown ground in trying to
discuss meditation, when the members of the forum are primarily here
to discus Abhidhamma. However, having read the several post I have
mentioned, and being a member of this group to learn Abhidhamma, I
thought I will make my contribution on Meditation and allied matters.

During the time the Prince Siddhartha was born in ancient India,
there was 62 different schools of philosophy. The well known teachers
of some of them were, Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Ghosala, Ajita
Kesakambila, Pakuddha Kachchayana, Niganta Nataputta and Sanjay
Belathaputta.

They practiced samata ( quietude)meditation, using Kasina, which are
the 40 different types of arammana to develop concentration . In
samath, the mind is quietened first by attaining one pointed
concentration( samadhi). Continuing to develop the concentration,
with the eyes fixed on the Kasina, they attain jhana( dyana)
absorptions. There are eight stages of jhana absorptions, four rupa
jhana, ( first, second, third ,forth) and four arupa jhana.
(fifth,sixth,seventh, and eighth). The first four jhana develop the
mind and go into a deep "silence", very calm and serene, no thoughts
arise in the mind. At the third and the fourth stages, mind is so
deeply concentrated the meditator will not be aware of the body.
Thereafter, the fifth to eight stages of absorptions give the
meditator supernatural power. The Hindu teachers,and philosophers
practiced these meditations even before the Prince Siddhartha was
born.

Prince Siddhartha, saw the four signs, and knew there was untold
suffering , among beings and thought that there must be a cause for
this, and that one may be able to stop it by eliminating the cause.
He studied under some of the great teachers at the time, I had
mentioned earlier. But he was disappointed . Ascetic Siddhartha,
thought that it is through self-inflicted pain that he may be able to
delve into the truth, and practiced austerity for six years, having
failed in that endeavour, he left his five devoted companions, and
went on his own. The rest of the story we know.

Lord Buddha, practiced the samatha, meditation following the
anapanasati,( taking the in and out breath) as the object of
concentration(arammana). That was a means of clearing the mind of
the incessantly arising and falling away of the thought processes. At
the forth jhana absorption the mind is clear, serene, calm, and
alert, but incapable of any other mental activity. Therefore the
Buddha, after attaining the fourth jhana, came out of it and
continued looking into the causes of suffering, looking at the mental
activity in different ways, that was the insight meditation
(vipassana), the unique method found by the Buddha himself.

In vipassana, the Buddha tried to see the ` working', not just the
understanding, of impermanence(anicca), unsatisfactoriness( dukkha )
and no-self (anatta). It is only through this insight or penetrating
into the working of his own mind that the Buddha, `saw' dukkha, its
cause, the way out of it and its cessation.

He was able to differentiate between the conventional truth and the
ultimate truth. A being is just five aggregates ( rupakkhandha,
vedenakkhandha,sannanakkhandha, vinnanakkhandha and
sankharakkhandha), and the cause of this suffering is rooted in
lobha, dosa, moha, which has created in the mind of the being that he
is a person, a "self", and every thing around is permanent, pleasant,
and that they are for his enjoyment. The Buddha knew that once the
beings become aware of the irreality of this thinking, they will
turn to his teaching, which will enable them to go through the same
experience he went through and attain nibbana.

With metta,
Yasalalaka

Hi Howard,

I am not surprised if indeed I am being too extreme, since most of
my understandings are from inference and I never have the energy nor
patience to consider them thoroughly, hence there must be some
slant. The other point is, since I tend to generalize, there must be
some degree of attachment too. There is nothing much that I can do
about it, except rely on dhamma friends to correct me. But being on
either side is something I definitely don't want to be, I want to be
on the Middle Path. So lets see if you can help me. But of course I
won't be able to get away from creating the impression anyway, since
my style of expression itself, gives some impression of that
extremism, unlike your own, which is usually quite friendly. ;-)

S:
> > But isn't jhana about relinquishing worldly attachment, seeing
danger in
> > it and the benefit of kusala?
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool.
> -------------------------------------------------------
Sukin:
Is it? Is this what the ancient masters had in mind when they
practiced it, are you sure?! I thought jhana was about developing
very high levels of kusala.
----------------------------------------------------------
S:
>    Is it just about sitting down because of >
> > previous accumulations and habit?
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        For any endeavor, we do better at what we are better suited
for.
> Obviously, howver, as the old saying goes, "practice makes
perfect."
> ------------------------------------------------------
Sukin:
If you think that "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool", then
I can understand why you would make this conclusion. But we will
have to establish "what is jhana" in the first place. So now I will
have to invite other members to join in!!
>------------------------------------------------------
S:   How will a person who *feels* >
> > secure and comfortable with regard to the world know detachment?
In
> > this case insecurity and security is just two sides of  the same
coin, no?
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        The point is that jhana practice takes lots of time. A
person who
> leads a life that is a harsh, desperate battle for survival will
not have
> that opportunity. Isn't that rather obvious? Even in the best of
times, the
> Buddha saw being a "full-time practitioner," a bhikkhu, as optimal.
> ------------------------------------------------------
Sukin:
But if my understanding of jhana is correct, then I see equal danger
in the life of luxury and comfort, ie, if he clings to it. I think a
serious jhana practtioner must have resolved to relinquish all
attachment to pleasure as well as pain.
But I do agree that if he does not at least get food regularly and
have a comfortable place to live, then it would not be conducive.

It is for similar reason, I feel, that someone in those times would
choose to ordained (leaving out exceptions). Only in this case it
would be taking refuge in the Triple Gem primarily. Becoming a
bhikkhu was not to practice jhana, but whatever it takes to reach
vipassana. And jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana,
but satipatthana is. But all kusala supports one's development, and
jhana is the highest kind of kusala with the exception of vipassana.
So monks who had accumulations for jhana, practiced it, *why fight
it*, besides one cannot be expected to have satipatthana all he
time. But on the other hand, those who didn't have the
accumulations, did not have to, they could practice bare-insight.
And *why fight these accumulations* and make an attempt to practice
jhana?
---------------------------------------------------
S:
> > And it seems you are implying that a stream enterer will have to
> > practice jhana if he wants to reach higher levels. But I thought
that a
> > stream enterer is assured of at most seven lives, no?
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I don't know. Perhaps a stream enterer is in a better
position to
> master jhanas. But I have read that it is possible to fall away
from being a
> stream enterer. What have you read in that regard?
> ---------------------------------------------------------
Sukin:
Only that they have at most seven lives to live, and falling away
from it is out of the question. It is an imposibility, no more
kilesas that would make them puthujanas again.
--------------------------------------------------------
S:
>    If you are saying >
> > that he will by conditions automatically practice jhana, then
what about
> > the fact that he has overcome silabattaparamasa?
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>         If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as
recommeneded again
> and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes an
attachment
> to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined the
first 4
> jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of
the eightfold
> noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the
mark.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
Sukin:
I hope my explanation above helps to make my position clearer. When
the Buddha asked his Bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was because that
was natural to them. But since it does not have anything directly to
do with the development of the path itself, it wouldn't constitute
silabattaparamasa. But if you do make a connection between jhana and
the ultimate goal of enlightenment, saying that jhana is
indispensable, then it is silabattaparamasa. And if you insist that
a sotapana must practice it, then it is a contradiction.
------------------------------------------------------
S:
> > Hope I have not misunderstood you.
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I don't know. I hope I *have* misunderstood you.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
Sukin:
Hope we both get it right, ultimately. :-)

Metta,
Sukin

At this moment a dhamma appears and it has a characteristic that can be
known in accordance with what we learnt through the theoretical knowledge of
realities.  Citta, consciousness, is nåma and it is accompanied by several
mental factors, cetasikas which are also nåma. Cetasikas experience the same
object as the citta they accompany, but they perform each their own
function. We were reminded time and again: ³People study citta, but they do
not know the citta that is appearing now.²
Seeing is a citta, it is nåma that experiences visible object. Visible
object is rúpa that appears through the eyes. Hearing is another citta,
different from seeing.
I said to Acharn Sujin that I am forgetful of seeing that appears now, and
hearing that appears now. She answered that I should listen again to the
Dhamma, that I should listen and consider realities very often. Paññå does
not know something other than what naturally appears at this moment. When a
reality appears one at a time, nothing else can appear at that moment.
It is true that only one dhamma appears at a time, and that the next moment
another dhamma appears. We can verify that when seeing arises, there cannot
be hearing at the same time. These two types of cittas arise because of
different conditions: they experience a different object and they are
dependent on a different base. We think about the dhamma that appears and we
cling to it.  However, this prevents us from being aware of other dhammas
that appear afterwards. Acharn Sujin said to me: ²Never forget that at this
moment a reality is appearing, and that one characteristic appears at a
time.²
Realities are appearing all the time, but they are not objects of sati,
because we are forgetful. I was reminded that we only think of the story,
the subject matter of nåma and rúpa. We have to be very sincere as to our
own understanding. We may read a great deal about nåma and rúpa, but this is
only theoretical understanding, different from sati-sampajaññå arising at
the present moment.
Understanding of the difference between thinking of realities and direct
understanding of them is essential. I find that this was the most important
lesson I learnt when I was in Thailand this time. I remarked that each time
I come to Thailand, I realize more how little I know. Jonothan answered:
³When you realize this, does that not mean that there is more understanding?
That is encouraging.² It is true: when we realize our deeply engrained
ignorance and wrong view, it helps us not to have vain expectations about
the growth of paññå.  The Buddha taught people to develop right
understanding of what appears at the present moment, and this is
satipatthåna.

Hi Sukin, Howard, and all,

Pardon me for jumping in.

Sukin, could you explain what "silabattaparamasa" means?  I tried to
look it up but couldn't find it in the online Pali-English
dictionary.  Your explanation is appreciated.

I would think that when the Buddha asked bhikkhus to practice jhana,
it was not because that was natural to them.  Rather, I would think
it is because right concentration, like seven other factors in the
Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary for reaching the goal of
liberation.

I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching
vipassana.  In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for
reaching insight.*

Your comments are much appreciated!!

Regards,
Victor

*  "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks,
also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a
supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the
knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration'
should be the reply."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023a.html



--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula"
<sukin@k...> wrote:
> Hi Howard,
>
[snip]
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool.
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> Sukin:
> Is it? Is this what the ancient masters had in mind when they
> practiced it, are you sure?! I thought jhana was about developing
> very high levels of kusala.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> S:
> >    Is it just about sitting down because of >
> > > previous accumulations and habit?
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        For any endeavor, we do better at what we are better
suited
> for.
> > Obviously, howver, as the old saying goes, "practice makes
> perfect."
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> Sukin:
> If you think that "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool",
then
> I can understand why you would make this conclusion. But we will
> have to establish "what is jhana" in the first place. So now I
will
> have to invite other members to join in!!
> >------------------------------------------------------
> S:   How will a person who *feels* >
> > > secure and comfortable with regard to the world know
detachment?
> In
> > > this case insecurity and security is just two sides of  the
same
> coin, no?
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        The point is that jhana practice takes lots of time. A
> person who
> > leads a life that is a harsh, desperate battle for survival will
> not have
> > that opportunity. Isn't that rather obvious? Even in the best of
> times, the
> > Buddha saw being a "full-time practitioner," a bhikkhu, as
optimal.
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> Sukin:
> But if my understanding of jhana is correct, then I see equal
danger
> in the life of luxury and comfort, ie, if he clings to it. I think
a
> serious jhana practtioner must have resolved to relinquish all
> attachment to pleasure as well as pain.
> But I do agree that if he does not at least get food regularly and
> have a comfortable place to live, then it would not be conducive.
>
> It is for similar reason, I feel, that someone in those times
would
> choose to ordained (leaving out exceptions). Only in this case it
> would be taking refuge in the Triple Gem primarily. Becoming a
> bhikkhu was not to practice jhana, but whatever it takes to reach
> vipassana. And jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana,
> but satipatthana is. But all kusala supports one's development,
and
> jhana is the highest kind of kusala with the exception of
vipassana.
> So monks who had accumulations for jhana, practiced it, *why fight
> it*, besides one cannot be expected to have satipatthana all he
> time. But on the other hand, those who didn't have the
> accumulations, did not have to, they could practice bare-insight.
> And *why fight these accumulations* and make an attempt to
practice
> jhana?
> ---------------------------------------------------
> S:
> > > And it seems you are implying that a stream enterer will have
to
> > > practice jhana if he wants to reach higher levels. But I
thought
> that a
> > > stream enterer is assured of at most seven lives, no?
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        I don't know. Perhaps a stream enterer is in a better
> position to
> > master jhanas. But I have read that it is possible to fall away
> from being a
> > stream enterer. What have you read in that regard?
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> Sukin:
> Only that they have at most seven lives to live, and falling away
> from it is out of the question. It is an imposibility, no more
> kilesas that would make them puthujanas again.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> S:
> >    If you are saying >
> > > that he will by conditions automatically practice jhana, then
> what about
> > > the fact that he has overcome silabattaparamasa?
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >         If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as
> recommeneded again
> > and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes
an
> attachment
> > to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined
the
> first 4
> > jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of
> the eightfold
> > noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the
> mark.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> Sukin:
> I hope my explanation above helps to make my position clearer.
When
> the Buddha asked his Bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was because
that
> was natural to them. But since it does not have anything directly
to
> do with the development of the path itself, it wouldn't constitute
> silabattaparamasa. But if you do make a connection between jhana
and
> the ultimate goal of enlightenment, saying that jhana is
> indispensable, then it is silabattaparamasa. And if you insist
that
> a sotapana must practice it, then it is a contradiction.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> S:
> > > Hope I have not misunderstood you.
> > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        I don't know. I hope I *have* misunderstood you.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> Sukin:
> Hope we both get it right, ultimately. :-)
>
> Metta,
> Sukin

Hello Victor,

Nyanatiloka has an entry for silabbata-paramasa at:

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_s.htm

"sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere
rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.),
and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on
attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána."

In an entry for 'upadana', silabbat is mentioned as part of a larger
entry at:

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html

"They are classified as 4 upadanani or four Graspings viz. kam°,
ditth°, silabbat°, attavad° or the graspings arising from sense--
desires, speculation, belief in rites, belief in the soul--theory D
II.58; III.230; M I.51, 66; S II.3; V 59; Dhs 1213; Ps I.129; II.46,
47; Vbh 375; Nett 48; Vism 569."

metta,

Christine


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao"
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Sukin, Howard, and all,
>
> Pardon me for jumping in.
>
> Sukin, could you explain what "silabattaparamasa" means?  I tried
to
> look it up but couldn't find it in the online Pali-English
> dictionary.  Your explanation is appreciated.
>
> I would think that when the Buddha asked bhikkhus to practice
jhana,
> it was not because that was natural to them.  Rather, I would think
> it is because right concentration, like seven other factors in the
> Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary for reaching the goal of
> liberation.
>
> I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching
> vipassana.  In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for
> reaching insight.*
>
> Your comments are much appreciated!!
>
> Regards,
> Victor
>
> *  "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks,
> also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a
> supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the
> knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration'
> should be the reply."
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023a.html
>

Hello Christine,

Thank you very much for the references!!  Now I understand what the
word means!

Regards,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Hello Victor,
>
> Nyanatiloka has an entry for silabbata-paramasa at:
>
> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_s.htm
>
> "sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to
mere
> rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.),
> and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears
on
> attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána."
>
> In an entry for 'upadana', silabbat is mentioned as part of a
larger
> entry at:
>
> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html
>
> "They are classified as 4 upadanani or four Graspings viz. kam°,
> ditth°, silabbat°, attavad° or the graspings arising from sense--
> desires, speculation, belief in rites, belief in the soul--theory
D
> II.58; III.230; M I.51, 66; S II.3; V 59; Dhs 1213; Ps I.129;
II.46,
> 47; Vbh 375; Nett 48; Vism 569."
>
> metta,
>
> Christine

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
>
> Howard:
>         If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as
recommeneded again
> and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes an
attachment
> to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined the
first 4
> jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of
the eightfold
> noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the
mark.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
Dear Howard,
Just a small point. The Visuddhimagga  notes about silabataparamsa
(clinging to sila and ritual ) that it can include all levels of
akusala (unwholesome) AND kusala(except satipatthana):
So  any kusala can be a support for satipatthana, but if it is seen
wrongly it can atke one in the wrong direction too. "So rite and
ritual clinging is a condition for all three namely the sense
desire , fine material (the planes attained by the first 4 jhanas)
and immaterial (the planes attained by jhanas 5 -8)kinds of becoming
with their analysis and synthesis."XVii 267.
The atthasalini differentiates between the type of jhana that arises
when nibbana is attained. Even dry insight workers who have no
experience of mundane  jhana attain this special type of jhana that
arises "in a momentary flash"- just for that instant. It is
different from mundane jhana. Mundane jhana is said to add to the
wall of samsara whereas supramundane jhana breaks the wall down.
Robertk

Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 5/1/03 5:18:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@...
writes:

> Dear Howard,
> Just a small point. The Visuddhimagga  notes about silabataparamsa
> (clinging to sila and ritual ) that it can include all levels of
> akusala (unwholesome) AND kusala(except satipatthana):
> So  any kusala can be a support for satipatthana, but if it is seen
> wrongly it can atke one in the wrong direction too. "So rite and
> ritual clinging is a condition for all three namely the sense
> desire , fine material (the planes attained by the first 4 jhanas)
> and immaterial (the planes attained by jhanas 5 -8)kinds of becoming
> with their analysis and synthesis."XVii 267.
>
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
        Thank you for the details, Robert. No doubt one can cling to
practically any conditioned dhamma, including the jhanas. Such clinging is,
of course, akusala and counterproductive.
------------------------------------------------------

> The atthasalini differentiates between the type of jhana that arises
> when nibbana is attained. Even dry insight workers who have no
> experience of mundane  jhana attain this special type of jhana that
> arises "in a momentary flash"- just for that instant. It is
> different from mundane jhana. Mundane jhana is said to add to the
> wall of samsara whereas supramundane jhana breaks the wall down.
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
        From my reading, the Buddha encouraged his Bhikkhus repeatedly to
practice the jhanas, and this applied even to mere stream enterers and to
worldlings; so we are talking about the mundane jhanas. The Majjhima Nikaya
is *filled* with exhortations in that direction. Moreover, it is clear from a
couple suttas that the Buddha used the base of the 4th jhana for his final
liberation, and Sariputta, as recorded in the Anapada Sutta, used all 8
jhanas as a means to complete liberation. Certainly the Buddha didn't
encourage his monks to "add to the wall of samsara".
        I have seen some Buddhists imply that the jhanas are practically the
whole of the path, and I have seen others say the jhanas are completely
expendable. I think these are two opposite extremities both of which are
incorrect.
-------------------------------------------------------
    Robertk>
>
>
===========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. &
ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika),
Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html

The Contemplation of Consciousness

After explaining the ninefold Arousing of Mindfulness in regard to
feeling, the Master began the explanation of the contemplation of
consciousness in the sixteenfold way with the words, "And, how, o
bhikkhus."

In this section there is no reference to supramundane truth because in
the sifting of things thoroughly to see their transient, pain-laden and
soulless nature only the mundane things are handled, and so there is in
this matter of penetrative knowledge of things no bringing together of
mundane and supramundane things.

Here follows the elucidation of terms mentioned in this section:

Saragam cittam = "The consciousness with lust." Karmically unwholesome
eight conscious states of the plane of existence of sense-experience.
These are together with greed in the sense of springing from it.

Vitaragam cittam = "The consciousness without lust." Karmically
wholesome and karmically neutral mundane states of consciousness.

The two spontaneous and non-spontaneous conscious states karmically
unwholesome, accompanied by grief, linked to resentment, and springing
from hate; the conscious state karmically unwholesome, accompanied by
neither pain nor pleasure, linked to doubt and springing from ignorance;
and the conscious state karmically unwholesome, accompanied by neither
pain nor pleasure, linked to agitation, springing from ignorance --
these four do not associate with the consciousness-with-lust-division or
the consciousness-without-lust division.

Sodosam cittam = "The consciousness with hate." The two conscious
states, karmically unwholesome, accompanied, by grief (mentioned above).

Vitadosam cittam = "The consciousness without hate." Karmically
wholesome and karmically neutral mundane states of consciousness.

The other ten karmically unwholesome conscious states of the plane of
existence of sense-experience do not associate with either the
consciousness-with-hate division or the consciousness-without-hate
division.

Samoham cittam = "The consciousness with ignorance." The conscious
state, karmically unwholesome, linked to doubt (mentioned above), and
the conscious state, karmically unwholesome, linked to agitation
(mentioned above).

Because, indeed, ignorance arises in all karmically bad states, the
other karmically bad states too should be mentioned, here. In just this
division all the twelve karmically bad, unwholesome or unskillful
conscious states are included.

Vitamoham cittam = "The consciousness without ignorance." Karmically
wholesome and karmically neutral mundane states of consciousness.

Sankhittam cittam = "The shrunken state of consciousness." The conscious
state fallen into sloth and torpor. That is called the shrivelled or
contracted state of mind.

Vikkhittam cittam = "The distracted state of consciousness." The
conscious state accompanied by agitation. That is called the dissipated
mind.

Mahaggatam cittam = "The state of consciousness become great." The
conscious state of the sensuous-ethereal [rupavacara] plane of existence
and of the purely ethereal [arupavacara] plane of existence.

Amahaggatam cittam = "The state of consciousness not become great." The
conscious state of the plane of existence of sense-experience.

Sauttaram cittam = "The state of consciousness with some other mental
state superior to it." That refers to any conscious state belonging to
the plane of sense-experience.

Anuttaram cittam = "The state of consciousness with no other mental
state superior to it." That refers to any conscious state belonging to
the sensuous-ethereal [rupavacara] or the purely ethereal [arupavacara]
plane.

Samahitam cittam = "The quieted state of consciousness." It refers to
the conscious state of him who has full or partial absorption.

Asamahitam cittam = "The state of consciousness not quieted." It refers
to the conscious state without either absorption.

Vimuttam cittam = "the freed state of consciousness." That refers to the
conscious state, emancipated partially from defilements through
systematic or radical reflection, or to the conscious state, emancipated
through the suppression of the defilements in absorption. Both these
kinds of emancipation are temporary.

Avimuttam cittam = "The unfreed state of consciousness." That refers to
any conscious state without either kind of temporary emancipation.

In the mundane path [lokiya magga] of the beginner there is no place for
the supramundane kinds of emancipation through extirpation [samuccheda],
stilling [patipassaddha] and final release [nissarana].

Sukin (and Sarah),

-----------
> I have a feeling that you are absolutely right in this,
----------

Thanks.  As you, [and also Sarah and Nina], have been
saying lately, we should find out what the Abhidhamma has
to say.  Otherwise, we might be headed down a blind alley.
Sarah has already joined in on this thread, so I look
forward to her further comment/exposition.

---------------
> We think that if we learn from past akusala action or
from what the religions say about right conduct, we are
'improving' ourselves. My question is, "Are we?" Can
there be any uprooting of kilesas without satipatthana
and vipassana? Can there be the correct course of action
without right view? >
-----------------

I don't know either.  We are told that even jhana can
only suppress -- it can't eradicate.  I suspect we have
seen the answers to this on dsg but I, at least, have not
fully absorbed them.  For instance, RobK once wrote about
how the word 'kusala' was derived from 'kusa grass' --
because it cuts both ways.  He explained it twice for me
but I have forgotten; does it mean kusala kamma
eradicates akusala kamma in some way?

On another occasion, I was having a non-cyberspace
conversation with Sundara about the benefits of kusala. I
couldn't see what was so good about it if it wasn't
accompanied by right view.  If it leads to continued
existence in samsara, what's the ultimate use of it?  Jon
briefly commented, "Because, if it's not kusala, it's
akusala."

I'm sure I'm missing something but the impression I get
from this, is that without right view, we have only one
choice; the frying-pan or the fire.

-------------
>  Maybe I should think more about this before putting
forward the questions. But maybe I'll find out more about
mana! :-)   >
------------

When you've solved the question of mana, I'll seek your
impressions on macchariya (stinginess).  At a recent
meeting, Andrew told us that macchariya included
'stinginess with the Dhamma.'  (!!!!)

I have to wonder if my usual reluctance to contribute to
dsg discussions doesn't amount to macchariya.  Even
poorly thought-out contributions are of value -- when
they lead to helpful, kusala, corrections.  Am I
begrudging people this benefit on the basis, "I would
have thought of that if I'd taken more time!"  :-)

Kind regards,
Ken H

To Sukin:

In a message dated 4/30/03 8:12:54 PM, sukin@... writes:

<< Thanks, but even if it really works, I wouldn't be able to. At work,

five meters from my own shop, they sell computer speakers, so the

level of noise is too high. At home I have two small boys who jump

at me the moment I reach home, in fact on sundays if we don't go

out, at the end of the day, I often end up with a fever. I don't

even get much chance to sit and read mails. But the bathroom and in

the car when caught in jams, are my favourite places for reading.:-)>>

%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Yes, my good friend Sukin, I know the house holder's path very well.  When my
children were born they had constant colic for 3 months, then it turned into
constant teething.  My daily practice was bouncing the little ones on my knee
with my finger in their mouth to suck one while I sat in meditation.  Now my
youngest is 17 and I have had my sleep disrupted every other day for the last
two weeks because he has been sneaking out of the house in the middle of the
night and getting himself arrested with some under age girl drinking and
driving.  Yes, I know the householder's path very well.  Believe me, if you
are intent on enlightenment, you would find a way to meditate with a
screaming child sucking on your finger, or while spending time in jail, or
while being audited by the IRS or getting divorced or filing bankruptcy.  I
have though all of these, and yes, I know how difficult the house holders
path is.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:
Maybe I should have added, that only a Buddha could see through the

first kind of detachment. The rest were happy abiding in the first

with the illusion that they had attained total liberation.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Possibly, but remember attachment prevents jhana.  If one is attached, there
is no jhana.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:
There is I think a general misunderstanding about he study of

Abhidhamma, from the outside and if one does not have a good teacher

like K. Sujin to teach it, it will look like one takes the knowledge

to *apply*, this may be what some consider an 'intellectual

overlay'. But this is not the correct way to study. One must have a

firm understanding of the distinction between concept and reality,

so that one can recognize the difference when there is awareness.

One must understand anatta and conditions quite well, so that one

does not then *try* to catch realities nor think that 'sati' can be

made to rise by will or certain ritualistic practice. And when one

is not trying to be mindful, only then can there be genuine insight

I think.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Yes, I agree, I have no problem with scholarship.  I have read the writings
of the various masters all along after all.  I found solace and guidance.
But, I also practice avidly as well.  That is all I urge anyone to do, is
don't just read.  One has to practice as often as possible.  Best once or
more a day.  And, one should make an effort to attend retreats.  All of my
vacation time from work was spent on retreats.  Now that I am a student, I
have longer holidays, but no money.  Fortunately the forest monasteries have
opened, so I don't have to pay to practice.  I can just go and offer myself
to them and they are happy someone wants to practice.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:
As Nina said, 'without the teachings, we could not have known all

this'. Which means to my understanding, that if we leave it to our

own subjective experience, without the Buddhas guide, we will

interpret it all wrong.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
While I agree that the Buddha's instructions as recorded in the Pali canon
are most excellent.  There have been many Buddhas and many of them have left
a written record, so there is Dhamma every where one looks.  But, I also
believe that the process of enlightenment is as natural as learning how to
walk.  Even without instruction, one who practices diligently will become
enlightened.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:
But the instant would have been the culmination of zillions of years

of development. ;-)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
No, my friend, have more faith in yourself.  In this very lifetime with all
of the chaos in your life you can become enlightened.  You just have to want
freedom more than breath itself.

Adalante Siempre adalante

layman Jeff

To Sukin:

In a message dated 4/30/03 8:36:04 PM, sukin@... writes:

<< Hi Jeff,


I would like to correct the following:


> There is I think a general misunderstanding about he study of

> Abhidhamma, from the outside and if one does not have a good

teacher

> like K. Sujin to teach it, it will look like one takes the

knowledge

> to *apply*, this may be what some consider an 'intellectual

> overlay'.


There is 'application' however, as in when one is 'seeing', then one

is reminded that what is actually seen is just 'visible object'. So

there may be a moment of not being drawn to the signs and the

particulars. So I guess I must distinguish between 'applying

with 'self'' and 'application by conditions'.:-)


Hope this is clear.


Best,

Sukin. >>

%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Thank-you kind sir for your clarification.  Might I ask, do you mean, to be
drawn to the 'signs' and 'particulars,' to mean in some way to be in
perception, or to grasp at a sense object?

best to you,

layman Jeff

To Ken H:

In a message dated 5/1/03 12:05:06 AM, kenhowardau@... writes:

<< Doesn't jhana fall into much the same scenario?  Moments

before the Buddha proclaimed his teaching, masters of

jhana were the pinnacle of religious and intellectual

hierarchy.  They could teach a way that led to countless

aeons of bliss. ('immediately followed by rebirth in the

worlds of woe, but let's not be too critical.)


Then, suddenly, there was a totally different Path that

led, not to TEMPORARY release, but to FINAL release from

dukkha.  So who needs jhana masters?  >>

%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
I find your assumption, while intriguing, not supported by my practice,
attainment nor the canon:

Potthapada Sutta, DN. 9-17

9-10. (One scrutinizes) the sense doors...Having reached the first jhana,
(one) remains in it.  Whatever sensations (that were there) disappear.  At
that time there is present a true but subtle perception of delight and
happiness, born of detachment, and (one) becomes one(,) who is conscious of
this delight and happiness.  In this way some perceptions arise through
training, and some pass way.  This is that training...

11. ...With the subsiding of thinking, by gaining inner tranquillity and
unity of mind (consciousness), (one) reaches and remains in the second jhana,
which is free from thinking, born of concentration, filled with delight and
happiness.  At (this) time there arises a true but subtle perception of
delight and happiness born of concentration, and (one) becomes one(,) who is
conscious of this delight and happiness.  In this way some perceptions arise
through training, and some pass way.

12. ...Dwelling in equanimity, mindful and clearly aware, (one) experiences
in (one's) body that pleasant feeling of which the Noble Ones say: "Happy
dwells the (one) of equanimity and mindfulness," (thus one) reaches and
remains in the third jhana...There arises at this time a true but subtle
sense of equanimity and happiness.  In this way some perceptions arise
through training, and some pass way.

13. ...With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance
of previous joy and grief, one reaches and remains in the fourth jhana, a
state beyond pleasure and pain, purified by equanimity and mindfulness...and
there arises a true and subtle sense of neither happiness nor unhappiness,
and (one) becomes one(,) who is conscious of this subtle sense of neither
happiness nor unhappiness.  In this way some perceptions arise through
training, and some pass way.

14. ...By passing entirely beyond bodily sensations, by the disappearance of
all sense of resistance and by non-attraction to the (diverse perceptions),
seeing that space is infinite, (one) reaches and remains in the sphere of
Infinite Space.  In this way some perceptions arise through training, and
some pass away.

15. ...By passing entirely beyond the Sphere of Infinite Space, seeing that
consciousness is infinite (one) reaches and remains in the Sphere of Infinite
Consciousness.  In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some
pass away.

16. ...By passing entirely beyond the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness,
seeing that there is no thing, one reaches and remains in the Sphere of
No-Thingness.  (One) becomes one who is conscious of this true but subtle
perception of the Sphere of No-Thingness.  In this way some perceptions arise
through training, and some pass away.

17. ...From the moment that one has gained this (self-awareness, one)
proceeds from stage to stage till (one) reaches the limit of perception.  (At
this moment) it occurs: "Mental activity is worse for me, lack of mental
activity is better...So, (one chooses to) neither think nor imagine.
Then...(one) attains cessation.
%%%%%%%%%%

Ken H:
So how can there be any question as to which way we

should go?  I think it's a matter of samvega (sense of

urgency).  Do we have the time to learn jhana? We could die

tomorrow, who knows when we will have another opportunity

to hear the Dhamma?

%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
I believe the above quote from the Potthapada Sutta should be sufficient
evidence to refute your assumption that one could even avoid developing jhana
and hope to achieve enlightenment.  I believe this Sutta makes it quite clear
that jhana is simply "par for the course."  If my good friend, there is a
sense or urgency, would you not abandon all other activities and cultivate
jhana now instead of waiting?
%%%%%%%%%%

Ken H:
Had we the accumulations for jhana, our opportunity would

be less tenuous.  (I can't quote any sources for this, by

the way.) In our preliminary practice, we would have

developed, for example, the ability to remember past

lives.  So we would have the luxury of time.  In such a

case, it would be quite appropriate that we emulate the

Buddha more closely and that we develop psychic powers.

In so doing, we could both pay more respect and be better

able to pass on the teaching.

%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
With the exception of advocating the development of "psychic powers," which I
think are whole unnecessary, I would disagree with you here.  The Buddha's
discourse on Dependent Origination, made it quite clear that resolving one's
"past lifetime linking" was an essential aspect of the path of purification.
Also, there is not much time involved in remembering a life time anyway.  One
can recall the whole of a life time in an instant, so where is the time
"lost."  And, besides what is the big hurry?  Do you have to attain
enlightenment before the light turns green?  I don't believe there is a "rush
hour" on the path to freedom.
%%%%%%%%%%

Ken H:
I think it's safe to say that you and I are not such

highly developed beings -- but are any of us?



If, twenty-six centuries ago, a person had the

accumulations for jhana, wouldn't he/she have followed

the Eight-fold Path to Parinibana by now?  (The obvious

exception would be a Bodhisattha, of course.)


Since that time, would anyone have *acquired*

accumulations for jhana? -- in preference to developing

vipassana?  I don't see why.  So I wonder, today, in this

human realm, is the real jhana taught or practised by

anyone?(!)

%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Quite the contrary my good friend.  If you log onto the Jhana Support Group
you will find there are plenty of people who experience jhana.  In fact in my
town we have a sangha dedicated to jhana, and I have several students, all of
whom experience jhana.

I am a mere layman, with little formal instruction, but I experience jhana
all of the time.  In my experience anyone can experience jhana, even me.  It
just requires some training, practice and a little discipline.  No more than
your vipassana practice.

blessings to you,

layman Jeff

Dear smallchap,
I looked at Theri-theragatha at different places, the English, but not about
a week. I think if he was dying it was not the right occasion to take
ordination, even if his deathbed was for a whole week. Think of the
ceremony, the questions you have to answer, the bowl and robe, etc.

In the Theri-theragatha

op 01-05-2003 16:30 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...:
> I discussed it with my teacher some years ago.  He said it could be
> due to Suddhodana's extra-ordinary accumulation (Parami) but it was
> not conclusive.
the Theri-theragatha reminds me of what you said to Jon:
<The thought of conventional impermanence often triggers insight.
It has its place in developing insight.  It should not be regarded as
something that will hinder insight. >
Many examples here. Something happens in your life, like a fall, or
sickness, and this reminds you of reality right there and then. There can be
awareness and understanding of pain as nama, thinking or aversion as nama,
and hardness of the body as rupa. I do not believe you have to concentrate
on realities, it is understanding that counts, but understanding is
accompanied by concentration without *us* having to try to concentrate. In
order to be able to be aware and understand nama and rupa one needs to have
already foundation knowledge, pariyatti, otherwise there are no conditions
for patipatti and pativedha.
Nina.

To Sukin, and Howard:

In a message dated 5/1/03 9:33:08 AM, sukin@... writes:

<< Sukin:

If you think that "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool", then

I can understand why you would make this conclusion. But we will

have to establish "what is jhana" in the first place. So now I will

have to invite other members to join in!!>>

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
I don't have a problem with "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool."  It
is, after all an aspect of the transformational process that is the path of
purification.
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:

But if my understanding of jhana is correct, then I see equal danger

in the life of luxury and comfort, ie, if he clings to it. I think a

serious jhana practtioner must have resolved to relinquish all

attachment to pleasure as well as pain.

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
I agree with you Sukin, the path of jhana is precisely the relinquishment of
attachment  or grasping and aversion.  It isn't so much about the actually
renunciation of material possetions, it is renunciation of the attachment to
them.
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:

It is for similar reason, I feel, that someone in those times would

choose to ordained (leaving out exceptions). Only in this case it

would be taking refuge in the Triple Gem primarily. Becoming a

bhikkhu was not to practice jhana, but whatever it takes to reach

vipassana. And jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana,

but satipatthana is. But all kusala supports one's development, and

jhana is the highest kind of kusala with the exception of vipassana.

So monks who had accumulations for jhana, practiced it, *why fight

it*, besides one cannot be expected to have satipatthana all he

time. But on the other hand, those who didn't have the

accumulations, did not have to, they could practice bare-insight.

And *why fight these accumulations* and make an attempt to practice

jhana?

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
I guess I would only add a reminder that you are probably not talking about
the Vipassana meditation technique, but vipassana (insight).
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:

Only that they have at most seven lives to live, and falling away

from it is out of the question. It is an imposibility, no more

kilesas that would make them puthujanas again.

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
When you have jhana my friends, who cares how many lifetimes one has?
Because its all bliss then.
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Sukin:

I hope my explanation above helps to make my position clearer. When

the Buddha asked his Bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was because that

was natural to them. But since it does not have anything directly to

do with the development of the path itself, it wouldn't constitute

silabattaparamasa. But if you do make a connection between jhana and

the ultimate goal of enlightenment, saying that jhana is

indispensable, then it is silabattaparamasa. And if you insist that

a sotapana must practice it, then it is a contradiction.

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Well, I could be wring my friends, but it has been my experience that jhana
was just "par for the course."  It is simply what one passes through on the
way to nibbana.  Why worry any, it's bliss after all?
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Richard:
I would think that when the Buddha asked bhikkhus to practice jhana,

it was not because that was natural to them.  Rather, I would think

it is because right concentration, like seven other factors in the

Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary for reaching the goal of

liberation.

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Precisely my good friend Richard.
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Richard:
I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching

vipassana.  In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for

reaching insight.*

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
But, I beg to dissagree here.  I am quite certain that jhana (absorption), is
a neccessary prerequisite for vipassana (insight).  Please note I am not
speaking here of the meditation practice that goes by the same name.
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Richard:
"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks,

also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a

supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the

knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration'

should be the reply."

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
I find there maybe a possibly translation problem here.  The word,
'Concentration,' stands for in this sutta, I believe, maybe the sanskrit word
'samadhi.'  I have seen in the Pali dictionary that it is translated as
'concentration,' but in Sanskrit I believe the word means 'absorption.'  I am
not sure if in the historic Buddha's day 'samadhi' meant 'concentration' or
'absorption,' but since it has been my experience that insight only arises in
me when I am in absorption, then I am inclined to lean toward the usage as I
am specifying it.

To Ken H:

In a message dated 4/30/03 1:29:12 AM, kenhowardau@... writes:

<< Certainly, even an arahant has to think of himself

conceptually from time to time -- as RobK says; how else

could he cross the street?  But I'm getting the

impression from Nina's thread, "Dhamma Issues 6," that an

arahant conceptualises himself as being a monk and that

is kusala (or kirya, in his case).  Could it be that, to

conceptualise himself in any other way -- as he would

have to do if he wasn't ordained -- would be akusala and

therefore beyond him?  Am I on the right track or am I

rambling?>>

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
While of course the arahant needs 7 sense awareness or he or she will not
function properly on the physical plane, there is no need to conceptualize
anything.  The arahant can remain in emptiness while driving a car if
necessary.  Using the brain for its memory and calculation abilities is of
course useful when, let's say, balancing the check book.  But the brain is
nothing more than a pocket calculator.  The arahant just is not enthralled
with his/her 'pocket calculator' anymore.  When it is no longer needed, he or
she knows where the 'off' button is.

best to you,

layman Jeff

To Howard and Robert:

In a message dated 5/1/03 3:44:58 PM, upasaka@... writes:

<< Howard:
        Thank you for the details, Robert. No doubt one can cling to
practically any conditioned dhamma, including the jhanas. Such clinging is,
of course, akusala and counterproductive. >>

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Not really my good friends Howard and Robert.  If there is clinging there is
no jhana.  If you recall, jhana is "a true but subtle perception of delight
and happiness, born of detachment" (Potthapada Sutta, DN. 9-17).
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Howard:
        From my reading, the Buddha encouraged his Bhikkhus repeatedly to
practice the jhanas, and this applied even to mere stream enterers and to
worldlings; so we are talking about the mundane jhanas. The Majjhima Nikaya
is *filled* with exhortations in that direction. Moreover, it is clear from a
couple suttas that the Buddha used the base of the 4th jhana for his final
liberation, and Sariputta, as recorded in the Anapada Sutta, used all 8
jhanas as a means to complete liberation. Certainly the Buddha didn't
encourage his monks to "add to the wall of samsara".

%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jeff:
Well said my good friend Howard.

Best to you,

layman Jeff

Dear Smallchap (& Nina),

  --- smallchap <smallchap@...> wrote:
>
> I discussed it with my teacher some years ago.  He said it could be
> due to Suddhodana's extra-ordinary accumulation (Parami) but it was
> not conclusive.
....
> I read it from Narada Thera's "The Buddha and His Teaching" ch. 8 (he
> wrote "A Manual of Abhidhamma") but unfortunately no reference was
> given. The Pali Proper Names points to Therigatha Commentery 141.
> You may want to check it out.  I have no access to it neither can I
> read Pali.
....
It's very interesting re King Suddhodana. I checked the same detail in
Narada's book and as you say, no reference for the comment.

I also checked Therigatha Comy in Mrs Rhys Davids transl (PTS). but 141
seems to be about Uttara with no mention of K.Suddhodana. I also followed
the refs at the back for Suddhodana, but found nothing here on his death.
I notice at the beginning of the text it says "with selections from the
Chronicle in Dhammapala's Commentary entitled Paramattha-Dipani". Maybe
someone can check the Pali as this may not be complete or the numbering
may be different.

Interesting!

Metta,

Sarah
======


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Hi Connie,

  --- connie <nichicon@...> wrote: > Hi, Sarah ~

> Sarah: A further Q to you or anyone: The Buddha was omniscient, so what
> is the
> significance of Brahma saying what he would have known anyway?
>
> Connie: I don't know, but it's nice to be able to say 'God' did that for
> us and by implication, thinks 'practicing Buddhism' is the best way to
> honour him.
.....
After I wrote, I remembered reading that 'A great Brahma's request for the
teaching of Dhamma' is one of the 30 regulations for all Buddhas. In other
words, there must be the request as condition for the teaching. These
'regulations' for all Buddhas are very interesting. I'll type them out
when I have time (from Comy to Buddhavamsa)
....

> How many times did Brahma have to say 'please teach'?  In some of the
> Mahayana sutras, it is a big deal if Buddha starts to teach without
> being asked anything.  There are also times when he has to be asked
> repeatedly, but for Pali Canon, now I can only think of when the dog (?)
> ascetic has to ask three times where those kinds of practices lead
> before Buddha answers.  So maybe part of Brahma asking him is because of
> our resistance to really wanting to assimilate the truth?
>
> We are reminded that the highest gift (and responsibility?) is truth?
> Or that the biggest miracle involves teaching/learning rather than
> things like omniscience?
>
> Ok, there's my 3 guesses.
.....
Thanks. I don't really know the significance.
> .....

> Connie: And didn't Ananda, who listened to everything and obviously
> still missed the point (being wrapped up in his own thoughts?) also have
> three chances?  Another reminder that we have to rely on ourselves...
> that if a Buddha was always around we might be even more complacent.
.....
;-) Conditions are very complex. We have the idea that if we had had the
good fortune to have met the Buddha, we wouldn't be around now, but who
knows? Maybe we're listening now because we had that good fortune.
.....
> And what was the point of him saying he would lay it all down in three
> months?
.....
Sorry, I'm lost on this reference. You'd need to say more for me.

Metta,

Sarah
======



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Hi Ken H (& Sukin, Smallchap & Yasa),

  --- kenhowardau <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

> Thanks.  As you, [and also Sarah and Nina], have been
> saying lately, we should find out what the Abhidhamma has
> to say.  Otherwise, we might be headed down a blind alley.
> Sarah has already joined in on this thread, so I look
> forward to her further comment/exposition.
.....
Was this on restraint in eating? I think we can only say ‘it depends’ and
only panna can know the citta at any given moment. I’m thinking of the
posts on ‘Sacca parmami’ and really being truthful to know what the
reality is and the meaning of caga (relinquishment), including
relinquishment of attachment to sense pleasures including visible objects
and sounds at this moment. Most the day I find is spent in one way or
other pursuing and gratifying the different senses without any detachment.
This is the reason why, like you, I think it’s highly questionable whether
the attainment of jhanas is possible for anyone today, unlike in the
Buddha’s time when already there were high degrees of such ‘guarding’ of
the sense doors, detachment and truth.

Btw, I thought Smallchap gave a couple of useful quotes with examples of
kusala (wholesome) reflections involving ‘oneself’. Again, I think it just
depends on the citta. We may reflect on the shortness of our lives or how
as we don’t wish to die, nor do others and it may all be with wrong view,
lobha or dosa. In the case of the weaver’s daughter in the Dhp Comy, after
reflecting on death and so on, she became a sotapanna, so there must have
been direct comprehension of realities as not self.
.....
> ---------------
> When you've solved the question of mana, I'll seek your
> impressions on macchariya (stinginess).  At a recent
> meeting, Andrew told us that macchariya included
> 'stinginess with the Dhamma.'  (!!!!)
>
> I have to wonder if my usual reluctance to contribute to
> dsg discussions doesn't amount to macchariya.  Even
> poorly thought-out contributions are of value -- when
> they lead to helpful, kusala, corrections.  Am I
> begrudging people this benefit on the basis, "I would
> have thought of that if I'd taken more time!"  :-)
.....
;-) I’ll wait for Sukin’s comments on this and Rob’s and Jon’s on the
other points perhaps. Sukin is certainly the right person to talk about
generosity and to encourage us all.

Yasa, thank you also for clearly adding the details about mana in your
helpful post.

Metta,

Sarah
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