Thanks, Sarah!

Rob Ep.

====

--- Sarah <sarahdhhk@...> wrote:
> Dear Rob Ep,
>
>  --- Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> > Thanks for your note!
> > If you could define micha/ditthi for me I would be much appreciative!
>
> Sorry, I think I overlooked this before i went away. Micha ditthi refers
> to 'wrong view'....Christine will say that 'wrong view' sounds so harsh
> and black, but then wrong view is the most harmful cetasika (mental
> factor).
>
> Please read more details about it (including the quote from the Nyantiloka
> dictionary) under 'Wrong View' in "useful Posts':
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
>
> Let me know if there was anything else (not that I can be at all sure of
> knowing the answer;-)
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
> R:> > >but a citta that mistakes a concept for a reality --
> > > > that
> > > > thinks the 'Universe' is a real object, not a concept -- occurs with
> > moha,
> > > > and is
> > > > a 'deluded' citta.  Is this correct?
>
> S:> > Certainly there is moha at these moments. When there is the
> ‘deluded’
> > citta
> > > which wrongly takes concept for reality, there is also (micha) ditthi
> > at these
> > > moments. This is why we can consider ditthi as the most ‘dangerous’
> > cetasika
> > > (to quote K.Sujin) and the first one that has to be eradicated.
> > >
> > > I think you’re getting ‘very warm’ indeed,
> > >
> > > Speak soon,
> > > Sarah
> > >  ==========
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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>
>


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Dear Suan, thank you for your patience in answering our questions and
providing us with the Pali. I find the subject more and more complicated and
I know you give this subject much thought. With appreciation, Nina.

Dear Christine :


> I think what is meant is that I should use 'myself' as an example to
> bring to mind that other beings feel emotional, psychological and
> physical pain just as 'I' do.
>


I am very delighted with your explanation above.  Anyhow, let me digest it
further and I'd like to put your analogy up-side-down to see the other side
of the coin a little bit.

After I read your post, this is what I can extract.  Panna and sati are there
in metta development.  Panna is at least in a level to understand and see
that one can get hurt, to a level to see and recognize disadvantages of dosa,
and to a level to recognize the difference between lobha and metta(adosa to
entity). Sati is definitely always be there at that moment with panna.  I
think this is what I got from your message.  So if this what you meant to
say, metta is not just sitting and trying to meditate or radiate metta power
onto every being on every possible plane.  I meant it can be to that degree
but it has to start with right understanding of what really is metta. Metta
again, can be start here and now in daily life (meditation on metta can also
be daily life for someone who have inclination to do that as well).


<<<
I was watching a one year old toddler at the Shopping Mall this
morning.  She had pulled the legs off her doll when a tiny puppy came
close; she picked it up and seemed to be trying to do the same to the
puppy, with no understanding that it could feel pain or fear, anymore
than the doll could.  Her mother quickly removed the puppy and
said "How would you like it if I pulled your legs off?' .... giving a
sharp tug on the childs' legs. Quite clearly from the yell of
protest, she wouldn't have liked it at all.....
>>>


Let me be mean a little this time.  OK, I'd like to change a puppy into a
little 1 y/o girl, change the girl into a mean criminal street drug user guy.
Yes, he is trying to pull the lovely little girl's leg (can be a symbol for
her physical health, mental health or spiritual health).  For me I definitely
love cute little girl, wish her no harm and pain. If she cry for food I will
always attend her. It's very easy for me to do that. Is that metta? Come back
to the analogy, what about the guy, can I still be kind and practice metta to
him.  Sound much harder.  Let me put the analogy further, if the street guy
is someone we love and know as well, let say the girl's father, brother,
relative or someone we love. Where will we put ourselves.  Everyone will
probably has his/her version of answer.   But real life is the best test.
Test what ground we stand on, how firm is our kindness, how firm is our
wisdom (panna).  I do not want to be mean, take it as a food of thought, OK
:)


<<<
You say: "Another point I'd like to add is bhramavihara also can be taken as
an object (arammana) for every aspect of akusala (asava, ogha, yogha, gantha,
upadhana, nivorana, anusaya,samyojana, and kilesa) as well."

I didn't know this - do you have any references where I can read
about it?
>>>


The reason I mentioned this b/c I'd like to share that metta in itself is a
very good deed, but kusla (except lokuttara level and nibbana) can be taken
as an object for akusala citta. This is my metta, I give him metta why he is
still mean to me, good feeling that come along with metta can also be
addicted, etc......   I got this from question-answer part in Dhammasangani.
I haven't looked in Atthasalini in detail but it might be some explanation in
there.

Best wishes,

Num


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Sarah,


> > Let me try some pali: pannasattha, pannaaloko, pannaobhaso,
> > pannapajjoto,
> > pannaratano, amoho, dhammvicayo, samadhitthi and finally natthi panna
> > sama
> > abha, nothing is as illuminating as panna.
> >
>
> Hmmm....Are you sure you translated it all? For the 95% of members who are
> pali challenged (inc.me), could you add a little more translation and
> explanation of your words of wisdom?

Ohoh ;P , this is not my words of wisdom, sorry I just parroted them.  Are
you sure you like to see my translation, I am a pali babble? Jargoning is
probably the right word to call my pali. Since you have asked, I will try my
best. But take it with caution, OK.

pannasattha: panna is like a weapon (addendum: piercing through reality,
akusala, kusala and/or neutral)

pannaaloko: panna is like a radiant light

pannaobhaso: panna is illuminating

pannapajjoto: panna is like a lamp

pannaratano: panna is like a precious gem

amoho: amoha: panna

dhammvicayo: analyzing or knowing dhamma clearly

samaditthi : panna

natthi panna sama abha: nothing is as illuminating as panna.


Ohoh, I have pali dyslexic syndrome.


Num



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Rob Ep,

You say: " the wrong antidote produces more causes, more kammas,and
eventually will yield akusula fruit"

I absolutely agree with you.  The incident happened in much less time
than it took to write about, and it was completely out of my control
(that word again).....  I have to say on a more serious occasion at a
shopping mall I did intervene, but this particular incident was in
the 'don't interfere' category.......maybe I would have had MY legs
pulled if I had.  :-) :-)
I always tried to use distraction, or if that didn't work, restraint,
when my son and daughter were very young.  ? part of skilful means of
parenthood.    (And maybe the mother in my post does also, and she
was just tired and stressed on this occasion.)

metta,
Christine

--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> wrote:
>
> --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
>
> > I was watching a one year old toddler at the Shopping Mall this
> > morning.  She had pulled the legs off her doll when a tiny puppy
came
> > close; she picked it up and seemed to be trying to do the same to
the
> > puppy, with no understanding that it could feel pain or fear,
anymore
> > than the doll could.  Her mother quickly removed the puppy and
> > said "How would you like it if I pulled your legs off?' ....
giving a
> > sharp tug on the childs' legs. Quite clearly from the yell of
> > protest, she wouldn't have liked it at all.....   I know none of
us
> > are quite like that, and that it is just a developmental stage.
But
> > some adults (maybe all of us to a smaller or greater degree) can
grow
> > indifferent, or a little callous about the suffering of others...
>
> Hi Christine,
> This is just a side-note to your interesting message, but I wanted
to focus on
> this little event, since I am the father of a three-year-old girl.
I often make
> little threats that she will be put in her room or take things away
from her when
> she is stubborn about doing things that are destructive to objects
or that are
> harmful to herself, but it occurs to me that this can sometimes
have the opposite
> effect.
>
> In your example, the mother pulled sharply on the child's legs to
give her the
> idea.  If indeed the child really didn't understand this seems like
a rather harsh
> way of making the point.  In my mind, the child would feel just
like the puppy in
> a sense: unfairly attacked, and would not understand why she was
being physically
> hurt.  This would cause more anger/resentment and lead to greater
violence in the
> future.  In other words, the wrong antidote produces more causes,
more kammas, and
> eventually will yield akusula fruit.  This is my view anyway.  It
is exceedingly
> difficult to maintain the balance between stopping akusala results
and creating
> more, which is why the cycle of attachment, birth and death is so
incredibly hard
> to break.
>
> This brings out another aspect of metta, which I think is
interesting to
> contemplate.  How could the mother in that example make the point
to the child
> that she must not harm other beings while expressing metta to her
at the same
> time?  How could she treat the child with lovingkindness and still
stop her from
> further 'assaults'?  It seems to me that the principle of ahimsa,
harmlessness,
> goes hand in hand with metta, that one who wants to stop harm must
also be
> harmless.
>
> I believe that the mother could have grabbed the child's attention,
really
> described to her what the puppy might feel if its legs were pulled
and allow the
> child to develop understanding and empathy.  To pull the child's
legs seems to
> bypass a more mindful process.
>
> Anyway, when my child won't listen I can be pretty gruff.  I raise
my intensity
> level in direct proportion to her resistance -- most of the time, I
hope, and try
> to remain calm even while setting boundaries.  I hope that I can
teach her to grow
> in the right direction without sowing seeds of fear and anger at
the same time.
>
> Best,
> Robert Ep.
>
> =================
>
>
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Dear Rob Ep,

  You say:  "My wife regularly de-selects photos that I think are
perfectly nice, and files them in the 'garbage file'.  Sometimes we
are forced to cut parts of pictures out for my mother, meaning the
part with her in it, leading to a collection of odd-sized photos."

**I believe this is a genetic trait 100% inherited down the female
line.:-)

You say: "In any case, I am sorry that I took your revelation of the
photos to put you on the spot.  That is a little bit mean, and I have
some regret about that.........but I'm just curious to see everyone
that I've been talking to [or at!] here on dsg."

**Rob - I have two brothers (of the blood, so to speak) so teasing
from dhamma brothers needs no apology, and certainly isn't seen by me
as mean. The only difference is - I can't throw a cushion at you via
the computer. :-)  Though I really wouldn't like Sukin to put them in
the Files......just send via email to those who request them.  Is
that possible, ... by email, I mean?

metta,
Christine
--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> wrote:
>
> --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> > Dear Rob Ep,
> >
> > Thank you for your kind words......Maybe we'll all get there
together
> > sometime....We missed Robert K by a week or so......Trouble is
with
> > you and Howard there, who else would get a word in?  :-)
>
> ha ha, I'd be happy to take a vow of silence if it gains me
admittance!
>
> > Would I be persona non grata on the List if I slightly threatened
> > Sujin....only a tiny little bit? Like getting Balvindra on our
side
> > somehow.......
> > I feel the women in the photo should have the right to accept, or
> > reject, or select, the photo (especially that poor one with flat
> > hair).  Or even wait 'til next year......
>
> Well, it was the flat hair that particularly intrigued me, but I
understand your
> feelings about it.  My wife regularly de-selects photos that I
think are perfectly
> nice, and files them in the 'garbage file'.  Sometimes we are
forced to cut parts
> of pictures out for my mother, meaning the part with her in it,
leading to a
> collection of odd-sized photos.  Perhaps Sukin can selectively crop
the photos and
> only post ones that have permission.  I guess that would be fair,
as long as you
> allow one of you to come through so that those unlucky enough to be
absent we can
> identify you as well as the others!
>
> I would be happy to crop and post them myself if Sukin is too busy
and want to
> just email them to me.  That's something that I can do pretty
quickly.
>
> In any case, I am sorry that I took your revelation of the photos
to put you on
> the spot.  That is a little bit mean, and I have some regret about
> that.........but I'm just curious to see everyone that I've been
talking to [or
> at!] here on dsg.
>
> In exchange, maybe I'll find a bad photo of myself and put it in
the dsg files.
>
> Regards to you,
> Robert Ep.
>
> ===========

Just to let you all know,

The combination of the recent cut-back in my internet
access and the extreme unreliability of this
connection, I'll most likely be out of touch most of
the time from now on.

I'll drop into an internet shop, as Sarah suggested,
when that's possible.  Just didn't want anyone to take
personally any posts left unanswered.

See you when I see you,

mike



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Dear Num, and All,

Yes, I agree, Num, that right understanding of what metta really is,
is crucial. And wrong understanding is so difficult to see when you
are in the middle of it...Mainly because you don't want to see it, or
it doesn't occur to you that "your" method could be wrong,
it's "everyone else" who is wrong :-)....
Interesting to change the 'actors' in the girl/puppy story....those
who pose no threat to us are alway easier to like in the conventional
sense (maybe this is why babies are born able to engage others with
their cuteness and helplessnss).
  In the safety of 'the dark room', I could radiate metta to
anyone.....people who have been violent in the past, those  in the
here-and-now whom I am not particularly 'in tune' with.

.....as You say: "But real life is the best test. Test what ground we
stand on, how firm is our kindness, how firm is our
wisdom (panna). I do not want to be mean, take it as a food of
thought, OK :)"
Not mean, Num....very helpful, and I do take it as food for thought.

You say:
"The reason I mentioned this b/c I'd like to share that metta in
itself is a
very good deed, but kusla (except lokuttara level and nibbana) can be
taken
as an object for akusala citta. This is my metta, I give him metta
why he is
still mean to me, good feeling that come along with metta can also be
addicted, etc...... I got this from question-answer part in
Dhammasangani.
I haven't looked in Atthasalini in detail but it might be some
explanation in
there."

Yes, this 'pollution' of kusala by being taken as an object for
akusala citta, is becoming clearer to me.  Mixed motives for 'good'
acts......e.g. Before I went to Bangkok I needed to call a Locksmith
to my home to open a jammed garage door.  He brought his tiny
daughter with him, perhaps two or three years old.  She was so good
and patient waiting for Daddy to do his work, and I wanted to give
her something as a reward.  I had a new doll, and gave it to her.
Her father and she were delighted and thought I was very nice.  But,
what they didn't know (and I don't think it was clear to me until
now) is that first of all, my mind ranged over the facts:  I didn't
want the doll; it hadn't cost me anything; my youngest niece already
had a similar doll; it was only gathering dust in my house; and
wouldn't they like me for giving it to her...a little embarrassing
really when you think of it....

Your mention of the Dhammasangani and Atthasalini raise a difficulty
I am having....

Does anyone know how I can  obtain copies of Dhamma literature more
quickly than my current method?
Presently, I order books through either Amazon.com or Adyar Bookshop
down in Sydney.
Unless Adyar have the text in stock (and they sell all sorts of
Metaphysical books as well) they will order it, and usually it takes
a minimum of four months for the copy to arrive.  Needless to say,
interest has often 'gone off the boil' by that stage.

Thanks for all you help, Num.

metta,
Christine

Hi Erik and Sarah,


[thread on one limb to rule them all, i.e. is one limb of the 8fold
path more important?]

> I agree completely the "Right View" is the forerunner, but Right
> View in what sense, mundane, suparmundane?

    That's a good question. Let's perform a thought experiment. Say
someone has high intellect, impeccably developed discerment/wisdom
factors at the mundane level at least, well refined ethical conduct,
well developed concentration factors, but still finds oneself cursing
at people when traffic is bad, lust arising when they drive past sexy
bill boards on the freeway. This cultivator is able to enter deep
levels of concentration and feels both mental and physical pleasure
while in meditation, but is not yet able to carry it through to non-
meditation times. So what's going on here? My unenlightened
diagnosis: There isn't any deficiency in the mundane aspect of right
view, or the factor of concentration, but probably insufficient
mindfulness. Mindfulness brought to fruition would apply discernment
factors and good-enough-concentration factors to every moment of
waking consciousness, deepening and continually directly penetrating
the 3 signata at the experiential level until at some fruitful moment
there is complete penetration of the 4 noble truths, destruction of
the taints, full enlightenment. So one could argue that for such a
cultivator, the 8fold factor of mindfulness was the bottleneck or
crucial limb. However, wasn't it mundane right
view/discernment/wisdom that made the diagnosis that led to the fix?
In my mind, that still makes right view, even at the mundane level,
the most important factor, even though in this case it was indirect.

>
> "Right View" in the mundane sense only takes one so far. If kamma
> and paticca samuppada and anatta are explained well they are not
> unduly difficult to grasp intellectually. What is much harder is
> getting rid of the views part and coming to supramundane Right
View,
> which it tanamount to abandoning "views" (read, speculation)
> altogether.

    Agreed, but once again, it could be argued that mundane right view
had a key supporting role in abandoning views leading to higher
attainments.
>
> Similarly, one needs hold no "belief" (ditthi) regarding the taste
> of a ripe mango if one has actually tasted a ripe mango, though one
> may hold beliefs about its flavor as "sweet, delicious, etc." prior
> to actually tasting it. Once tasted, there is no longer any need
for
> any "view" of a mango's taste, hence there is nothing to associate
> with view or speculation regarding its flavor and texture.

    That's a good analogy, but here's a similar analogy that's based
on a personal true story. I used to hate papayas. The reason is the
first few papayas I ate as a child were overripe, underripe, or just
not that sweet. It was only after I tasted a good papaya years later
that I fully understood what was gratifying about a papaya.
    So the moral of the story: Without mundane right view guiding me
with the view that it is possible that a tastier worthy papaya
exists, I might have stuck with my original assessment of papayas and
never discovered the truth. Translating the analogy to spiritual
practice. Suppose your initial introduction to Buddhism is through a
charismatic cultlike buddhist leader. You gain some legitimate
attainments, but along with that you also have accumulated wrong
views, corrupt views, corrupt practices. You have not yet acquired
supramundane right view, so all you have is mundane intellectual
discerment to guide you out of the mess.

    On the rest of Erik's post: Great stuff. I'm in full agreement,
and have nothing to add. While I agree that mundane right view alone
can't take you all the way to full liberation, it plays an important
supporting role nonetheless :-)

-fk

(the rest of Erik's post is worth re-reading again)

>
> But, absent this taste, there has to be some way to acquire a mango
> for the tasting! :)
>
> So my question, from the other day and again is, "Now what"?
> Intellectual analysis can only take one so far. It is possible to
> beak down the body into a bunch of functions and dis-identify them
> with an "I" intellectually. But this can never substitute for
> directly seeing this reality with supramundane panna, which is
> unmediated by conceptual elaborations.
>
> The means to tasting this ripe mango I'm familiar with (the one
> outlined by the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta and the Samadhi
> Sutta and many other places) demands a lot more than merely
> understanding intellectually (lokiya samma ditthi) that all things
> are anatta, or that we all heirs to our own kamma, or believing
that
> there is no "driver" or "I" behind everything in the ultimate
sense.
>
> According to my understanding, the panna that cuts the defilements
> takes unbroken mindfulness brought about by persistence and effort
> (viriya) training in mindfulness and concentration, (sati and
> samadhi), applying that to the direct investigation (dhamma-vicaya)
> into the charactetristics of dhammas arising and passing away in
> terms of noting their inconstancy, combined with other factors
> (piti, passadhi, upekkha), which, when brought to their culmination
> in the proper balance, lead to the insight that terminates the
> fetters and brings to fruition the sole aim of the Dhamma: final
> release from identification with the imputed "self," the "I, me,
> mine," which lies at the root of suffering.
>
> So there are many factors involved, and what I've found most
helpful
> is to reflect on what the Buddha actually taught regarding the
cause-
> and-effect relationships that lead from suffering sentient being to
> final release. For example, if the hindrances are present, can any
> of the enlightenment factors like piti, passadhi, upekkha, or sati
> arise? What about samadhi? Without these factors, is there any hope
> of release?
>
> So based on my understanding, it's a matter of working with these
> cause-and-effect relationships in the approriate order, knowing,
for
> example, that without pacifying the hindrances, the seven factors
of
> enlightenment have no basis for arising, not to mention
> enlightenment and final release. Not only that, but among all these
> factors there needs to be the appropriate balance. To veer too far
> in any direction is to depart from the Middle Way, to miss
> the "sweet spot" as in the "lute-string" simile, and to miss the
> mark entirely.
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2g.html

--- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote:
> Dear Rob Ep,
>
> You say: " the wrong antidote produces more causes, more kammas,and
> eventually will yield akusula fruit"
>
> I absolutely agree with you.  The incident happened in much less time
> than it took to write about, and it was completely out of my control
> (that word again).....  I have to say on a more serious occasion at a
> shopping mall I did intervene, but this particular incident was in
> the 'don't interfere' category.......maybe I would have had MY legs
> pulled if I had.  :-) :-)
> I always tried to use distraction, or if that didn't work, restraint,
> when my son and daughter were very young.  ? part of skilful means of
> parenthood.    (And maybe the mother in my post does also, and she
> was just tired and stressed on this occasion.)
>
> metta,
> Christine

Well we all lose it a little bit on occasion.  When I do, I apologize to my
child,
so she's knows what I think is 'okay' and not.

I also would not intervene with another parent unless it was a clear case of
abuse.  For better or worse, parents have the right to pull their kids' legs, at
least up to a point.

When I did see a mother in two cases and a big mean-looking dad in another case
hit their kids hard enough to cause damage, I spontaneously intervened, and I
think prevented more damage for the moment.  It is quite horrifying to see this,
especially with really young children.  With the big guy, he was angry at first,
but when I expressed concern for the child and didn't try to give him a lecture,
he softened and I was able to get the message across to him that he was hitting
his boy 'too hard' and that he might really hurt him.  I didn't try to convince
him not to use physical discipline, just to make sure the boy didn't get serious
damage.

Anyway, I noticed in these incidents that if I let myself get enraged at the
parents [which I did sometimes] it added more intensity, but when I stayed
detached I was much more effective.  Wonder about the relation between
detachment
and metta, perhaps one helps create the other.

Robert Ep.

=============================

> --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> >
> > > I was watching a one year old toddler at the Shopping Mall this
> > > morning.  She had pulled the legs off her doll when a tiny puppy
> came
> > > close; she picked it up and seemed to be trying to do the same to
> the
> > > puppy, with no understanding that it could feel pain or fear,
> anymore
> > > than the doll could.  Her mother quickly removed the puppy and
> > > said "How would you like it if I pulled your legs off?' ....
> giving a
> > > sharp tug on the childs' legs. Quite clearly from the yell of
> > > protest, she wouldn't have liked it at all.....   I know none of
> us
> > > are quite like that, and that it is just a developmental stage.
> But
> > > some adults (maybe all of us to a smaller or greater degree) can
> grow
> > > indifferent, or a little callous about the suffering of others...
> >
> > Hi Christine,
> > This is just a side-note to your interesting message, but I wanted
> to focus on
> > this little event, since I am the father of a three-year-old girl.
> I often make
> > little threats that she will be put in her room or take things away
> from her when
> > she is stubborn about doing things that are destructive to objects
> or that are
> > harmful to herself, but it occurs to me that this can sometimes
> have the opposite
> > effect.
> >
> > In your example, the mother pulled sharply on the child's legs to
> give her the
> > idea.  If indeed the child really didn't understand this seems like
> a rather harsh
> > way of making the point.  In my mind, the child would feel just
> like the puppy in
> > a sense: unfairly attacked, and would not understand why she was
> being physically
> > hurt.  This would cause more anger/resentment and lead to greater
> violence in the
> > future.  In other words, the wrong antidote produces more causes,
> more kammas, and
> > eventually will yield akusula fruit.  This is my view anyway.  It
> is exceedingly
> > difficult to maintain the balance between stopping akusala results
> and creating
> > more, which is why the cycle of attachment, birth and death is so
> incredibly hard
> > to break.
> >
> > This brings out another aspect of metta, which I think is
> interesting to
> > contemplate.  How could the mother in that example make the point
> to the child
> > that she must not harm other beings while expressing metta to her
> at the same
> > time?  How could she treat the child with lovingkindness and still
> stop her from
> > further 'assaults'?  It seems to me that the principle of ahimsa,
> harmlessness,
> > goes hand in hand with metta, that one who wants to stop harm must
> also be
> > harmless.
> >
> > I believe that the mother could have grabbed the child's attention,
> really
> > described to her what the puppy might feel if its legs were pulled
> and allow the
> > child to develop understanding and empathy.  To pull the child's
> legs seems to
> > bypass a more mindful process.
> >
> > Anyway, when my child won't listen I can be pretty gruff.  I raise
> my intensity
> > level in direct proportion to her resistance -- most of the time, I
> hope, and try
> > to remain calm even while setting boundaries.  I hope that I can
> teach her to grow
> > in the right direction without sowing seeds of fear and anger at
> the same time.
> >
> > Best,
> > Robert Ep.
> >
> > =================
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> > http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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--- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote:
> Dear Rob Ep,
>
>  You say:  "My wife regularly de-selects photos that I think are
> perfectly nice, and files them in the 'garbage file'.  Sometimes we
> are forced to cut parts of pictures out for my mother, meaning the
> part with her in it, leading to a collection of odd-sized photos."
>
> **I believe this is a genetic trait 100% inherited down the female
> line.:-)
>
> You say: "In any case, I am sorry that I took your revelation of the
> photos to put you on the spot.  That is a little bit mean, and I have
> some regret about that.........but I'm just curious to see everyone
> that I've been talking to [or at!] here on dsg."
>
> **Rob - I have two brothers (of the blood, so to speak) so teasing
> from dhamma brothers needs no apology, and certainly isn't seen by me
> as mean. The only difference is - I can't throw a cushion at you via
> the computer. :-)  Though I really wouldn't like Sukin to put them in
> the Files......just send via email to those who request them.  Is
> that possible, ... by email, I mean?
>
> metta,
> Christine

Dear Christine,
Yes, the photos should be able to be sent privately via email as attachments.
That is fair enough not to have them in the files.  Thanks for being a good
sport,
and....consider me cyber-cushioned.  <g>

I have torn up a few photos myself that showed me [throug some lie of the
camera]
to have a little more of a pot belly than I give myself credit for.   I won't
put
up with visual lies about myself, so I understand.

Robert Ep.

===============================

> --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> > > Dear Rob Ep,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your kind words......Maybe we'll all get there
> together
> > > sometime....We missed Robert K by a week or so......Trouble is
> with
> > > you and Howard there, who else would get a word in?  :-)
> >
> > ha ha, I'd be happy to take a vow of silence if it gains me
> admittance!
> >
> > > Would I be persona non grata on the List if I slightly threatened
> > > Sujin....only a tiny little bit? Like getting Balvindra on our
> side
> > > somehow.......
> > > I feel the women in the photo should have the right to accept, or
> > > reject, or select, the photo (especially that poor one with flat
> > > hair).  Or even wait 'til next year......
> >
> > Well, it was the flat hair that particularly intrigued me, but I
> understand your
> > feelings about it.  My wife regularly de-selects photos that I
> think are perfectly
> > nice, and files them in the 'garbage file'.  Sometimes we are
> forced to cut parts
> > of pictures out for my mother, meaning the part with her in it,
> leading to a
> > collection of odd-sized photos.  Perhaps Sukin can selectively crop
> the photos and
> > only post ones that have permission.  I guess that would be fair,
> as long as you
> > allow one of you to come through so that those unlucky enough to be
> absent we can
> > identify you as well as the others!
> >
> > I would be happy to crop and post them myself if Sukin is too busy
> and want to
> > just email them to me.  That's something that I can do pretty
> quickly.
> >
> > In any case, I am sorry that I took your revelation of the photos
> to put you on
> > the spot.  That is a little bit mean, and I have some regret about
> > that.........but I'm just curious to see everyone that I've been
> talking to [or
> > at!] here on dsg.
> >
> > In exchange, maybe I'll find a bad photo of myself and put it in
> the dsg files.
> >
> > Regards to you,
> > Robert Ep.
> >
> > ===========
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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dear all,

thank for you support to me. I will forget my grandma slowly. I so love her.
If I chanting for my grandma, do she hear my chanting? How do process it?

metta,

purnomo


>From: "yklimov" <yklimov@...>
>Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
>To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [dsg] Re: grandma / to Sarah
>Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:28:47 -0000
>
>Dear Sarah
>
>   Thank you for your nice letter. I usally don't talk here much,
>because basically I have nothing to say :). I am a beginner to
>Buddhism, this group was recommended by Robert to me, I am very
>grateful to him for that.
>   I am native Russian, immigrated to USA in 1995, still trying
>to "fit". I live in South Florida, in Hollywood.
>   I enjoy very much this group, even sometimes I don't really
>understand what people are telling here.
>   Thank you again for giving some attention to me :)
>
>Yulia
>--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Yulia,
> >
> > I was very glad to hear from you and to read your nice post to
>Purnomo
> > below. I liked the story about your friend's book and the custom of
> > remembering the good someone has done. When Jon gave a eulogy at his
> > father's funeral a couple of years ago, it was really a reflection
>on his
> > good qualities and deeds which I think is helpful for everyone.
> >
> > Hope you're enjoying the other posts on the lists and finding some
>of
> > value. Hope to hear more from you too;-)
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> > p.s I just forget, did you tell us where you live? (Sorry if you
>did and
> > I've forgotten)
> > ================================================
> >
> >  --- yklimov <yklimov@l...> wrote: > Dear Purnomo,
> > >
> > >    I would like to say I am very sorry for your loss. I have
>never
> > > lost anyone yet, but I've lost a friend and I've seen my friends
>lost
> > > their daughter. Be supportive to your Mom or Dad, whoever Mother
> > > passed away.
> > >    The freind of mine, when she was little, her grandma passed
>away,
> > > then when all her relatieves got together, father got a book and
> > > asked everyone to tell something good about grandma, then he
>wrote it
> > > into this book. She cherished this book all her life, and now
>gave it
> > > to her teenager son, I feel it's a great way to be close to you
> > > ancestors. Today we have camcorders, you can just kind of tape
> > > everyone saying something good about her. In my country it's a
>custom
> > > when someone dies, tell whatever good he's done, so he won't
>forget,
> > > leaving us.
> > >
> > > Love,
> > > Yulia
> > >
> > > PS Congratulation on finishing your study!
> > ....................................................................
>.................................
> >
> >
>______________________________________________________________________
>_
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at
>http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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dear all,

thank for you support to me. I will forget my grandma slowly. I so love her.
If I chanting for my grandma, do she hear my chanting? How do process it?

metta,

purnomo



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Hi Kom

>
> We know in some situations that the citta, with the
> cetasikas, are described as pure.  So far, we hear from
> people the following theories:
> 1) Bhawanga is pure, as the commentaries have described it.
> However, I haven't seen the details if this is inclusive of
> all bhawanga, or does it just include the bhawangas with
> 2-hetu/3-hetus.  How about the other sobhana vipakas?
> 2) Some have alluded to that all sobhana cittas are all
> pure, so this includes all vipaka/kusala/and kiriya with
> 2-hetu/3-hetu.
> 3) Some think the citta itself [maybe this is what you are
> talking about?], even with the cetasikas, is itself pure.
> This theory says all cittas (kusala/akusala/the rest) are
> pure.  This perhaps may be due to the fact that cittas are
> said to see all the details of the object (although it
> doesn't penetrate the true characteristics), and that citta
> is defiled by kilesa (cetasikas), and not the other way
> around.
>
> Do you think the Buddha maybe describing one of the above
> situations, or do you think he is describing a pure
> consciousness that transcends all conditioned realities?
>
> kom


I don't think Buddha would describe there is a pure consciouness that
transcends all conditioned realities. This would imply an underlying
nature.  The problem with the reason that all cittas are pure are weak bc

a.  Firstly all cittas need at least two hetu as paccaya and the
likelihood of aksuala hetu is more common for those who are not Arahant

b.  Secondly, all cittas has latent defilements.  Even bhavanga citta have
latency and also hetu paccaya, how could it be pure. Luminious yes but not
pure.

c.  Pure could only be ascribed to when we are able to eradicate latent
tendency which means a fully enlighted Arahant.  This is probably why we
mixed up those who are not enlightend and those who are when we describe
cittas are pure.


Kind regards
Ken O

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Hi Suan


> You asked:
>
> "Could you kindly explained the sentence "new kinds of
> bhavangacittas"."
>
> Well, you first had the given bhavangacittas from birth. During your
> current lifetime, you happened to perform janaka kamma. Suppose that
> the effect of javana kamma did not wait till your next conception,
> and needed to appear during your currect lifetime. And, suppose also
> that the effect was the resultant mental aggregate (aruupa vipaaka
> khandhaa), then you got different kind of bhavangacitta. As simple as
> that.

k:  I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga cittas could
not be change throughout ones life.  Do you have commentary texts to
substantiate your point.


> You also asked:
>
> "Secondly since the objects of bhavangacittas are the same throughout
> one's life, will that mean that these new kinds of bhavangacittas
> have different objects."
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> You also asked:
>
> "Do you know of any commentaries that mention the objects of
> bhavangcittas."
>
> Yes, I have read some. You may need to wait for exact references,
> though.
>
> And, by the way, why are you obsessed by the objects of
> bhavangacittas?

k:  Oh, bc it is a subject that there is little information and too much
mystery :).


Kind regards
Ken O





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Nina (and Num)

  --- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@...> wrote: > Dear Num, Thank you for
your further info. In the Co to the
> Dhammacakkhapavattana Sutta the three ~naa.nas are dealt with
> expressively.
> Now another text: Debates Commentary,( to Kathavatthu, I also have the
> Thai), Ch 20, VI, Some thought that all the twelve constituent parts
> were
> lokuttara, but this has been refuted. Here the English translation is
> not
> clear: the diversity of insight as to nature: sacca, the need to do,
> kicca,
> and the being done, kata, respecting each truth.
> I looked at my India notes: I understood from A. Sujin: there is even
> kata
> ~naa.na at the first stage of vipassana ~naa.na, but not fulfilled. The
> nature of dukkha is penetrated more when there is mahaavipassana
> ~naa.na,
> when the arising and falling away of dhammas has been realized. We can
> say,
> when realities are seen as just elements, dhatus, at the first vipassana
> ~naa.na, there is some fruit of the development, something has baan
> done,
> kata, but the development has to go on and on.
> Best wishes, I am glad you can play tennis again, Nina.

We had some discussion with A. sujin on this topic.  My understanding from
those discussions is as follows:

-  sacca-nana is correct conceptual understanding about the 4 Noble Truths

-  kicca-nana is any moment of direct understanding of the true nature of
a reality (mundane or lokuttara)

-  kata-nana is mentioned in the texts in the context of lokuttara citta,
but A. Sujin takes this to be a case of 'only the highest being
mentioned', and accordingly kata-nana includes the realisation of
attainment of any of the stages of vipassana nana.

Nina, I hope this covers the points on which you were looking for
clarification.  The 3 rounds are of course to be understood in the dynamic
sense in which you mentioned in an earlier post.  Please let me know if
there was anything else you were hoping to have covered.

Jon

PS  A. sujin made a point of mentioning that her interpretation on
kata-nana had not been formally considered by the teachers' committee at
the Foundation.


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Howard

  --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi again, Robert -
>
>        So as not to end the Gregorian-calendar year with a disagreement
> ;-)),
> let me add that whatever nibbana really is, and whatever our differing
> misguided notions of it may be ;-)), I know that we are in complete
> *agreement* in wishing for the other all and only what is good. May
> nibbana,
> the ultimate good, be yours (though there *is* no you! ;-), and soon!
> And
> may you, and *all* the loving and brilliant folks on DSG have a
> wonderful
> year, a year filled with santi, metta, and the sukkha of Dhamma - with
> peace,
> lovingkindness, and the joy of the Buddha's wonderful teaching!

I second all you've said here!  And I thank you for your significant
contribution to the discussion on the list.

Jon


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Christine

Thanks for the amusing yet perceptive report of your visit.  It was a
delight to meet you.

I'm glad you did not find everythiing too overwhelming, as can happen with
new ideas and new people in new (exotic) places.  You handled it all very
well, a testament I think to your confidence and understanding in the
teachings.

  --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote: > Dear Rob Ep,
>
> Thank you for your kind words......Maybe we'll all get there together
> sometime....

Good thinking!  Maybe we should pencil in Bangkok for next Christmas/New
Year (dsg jamboree?).

Jon



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Mike

I enjoyed very much meeting you in Bangkok over the New Year.  The
breakfast chats were a great start to the day, and I also appreciated your
useful contribution to the discussions.

  --- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote: > Just to let you all know,
>
> The combination of the recent cut-back in my internet
> access and the extreme unreliability of this
> connection, I'll most likely be out of touch most of
> the time from now on.
>
> I'll drop into an internet shop, as Sarah suggested,
> when that's possible.  Just didn't want anyone to take
> personally any posts left unanswered.

I was sorry to learn about the loss of internet access, particularly as I
had been appreciating your recent posts.  I do hope you'll be able to find
a workaround that will allow you to remain active on the list.

I hope things work out for the rest of the period until you are able to
get into WPN.

Jon


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Rob Ep

  --- Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@...> wrote: > Dear Jon,
> Due to pleasantly synchronistic conditions arising, your answer to
> Herman here has
> answered the question I just asked in my last post to you.  The rupa is
> experienced directly by the citta and it doesn't matter whether it's an
> 'accurate'
> reflection of a 'real external object' [probably because there's no such
> things --
> just momentary rupas arising].  What matters is that the rupa will be
> shaped by
> the kammic predispositions of the sense-door moment, and this is all
> that is
> necessary to get one's *real rupa* in the moment.  It is not *the* rupa,
> it is the
> appropriate rupa for that citta in that moment.

I couldn't have put it better myself.  (You have quite a way when it comes
to stating these propositions/concepts -- I'm most envious of this
ability!)

Jon


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Dear Purnomo,

I will leave it to others to write about the chanting.

I am very sorry you are hurting, the story of your loss and the grief
you feel for your Grandma is heart rending, as are all such losses
that occur, and have occurred, to members of this group.  You are not
alone.  We understand.

If you are able, try to stay aware of the mind and body conditions in
the present moment. You may feel some of the following feelings -
sadness, anger, guilt, anxiety, loneliness, shock, yearning,
numbness, helplessness.  Physically you may feel fatigue, tightness
in the chest, a dry mouth, a hollow feeling in the stomach, tightness
in the throat. You may also feel like crying all the time, not
wanting to see your friends, being unable to sleep properly. This
will pass away in time - though not as soon as most people predict.
And, even after grief fades, it will occasionally come back to visit
you at the most unexpected of times.  But through all of this,
remember one thing, you will be happy again.

  Be kind to yourself, and find a person to whom you can talk (maybe
over and over again) about your Grandma, how she died, your memories
of her, how much you love her and how you are feeling.....a person
who will keep what you tell them confidential. It is often hard to
talk with close family because they are trying to bear the same loss,
and you need to talk to someone who isn't in  pain, as you are.

Once upon a time, when I felt great grief, I found out that even
those, like Vasetthi, who were very nearly Arahants didn't escape
this dukkha.  Knowing this didn't stop my pain, but it helped,
somehow.

Vasetthi was born in Vesali and was happily married to a man whom she
bore a son. When her child died, she went mad and ran away from
home.... Eventually, she came to Mithila, encountered the Buddha and
regained her sanity. Then Vasetthi joined the nuns' sangha and later
became an arahant.


Grief-stricken for my son,
mad-minded, out of my senses,
I was naked with wild hair
and I wandered anywhere.

I lived on trash heaps,
in a graveyard,
and by the highways.
Three years' wandering,
starved and thirsty.

Then in the city of Mithila
I saw the one who tames
what is untamed
and goes his way in happiness,
enlightened, unafraid.

I came to my senses
paid homage,
and sat down.

Out of compassion,
Guatama (Buddha) taught me the way.
When I heard his words
I set out into homelessness.
By putting his teachings into practice,
I realized great joy.

My grief is cut out,
finished, ended,
for I have understood the ground
from which all grief comes.

May you soon be peaceful and happy, Purnomo

May you understand the ground from which all grief comes

May you live with ease and well being.



metta,
Christine



--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Purnomo ." <purnomo9@h...> wrote:
> dear all,
>
> thank for you support to me. I will forget my grandma slowly. I so
love her.
> If I chanting for my grandma, do she hear my chanting? How do
process it?
>
> metta,
>
> purnomo
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com

Dear Mr.Suan,
I think buddhaghosa would say you are having crazy idea about bhavanga.He
would say you are just a non theravadin.Read ch.20 in Visuddhimagga for
kamma produce material,bhavanga citta produce material during life time.You
cannot say during life time we produce kamma call janaka kamma because those
are supplanmanting kamma etc.Janaka kamma cannot be change after rebirth
citta.janaka kamma basically means  our life time span produce from previous
life.Are you saying that we can change from among 4 kinds of two roots to 4
kinds of three roots or from ahetu to two roots.We are still not enter into
bhavanga citta of brahma when we attain jhana as a human because we are
merely attain into form/formless javana.Do not be overclever.




>From: "abhidhammika" <abhidhammika@...>
>Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
>To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom On Kamma Modifying
>Bhavanga Cittam
>Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:24:13 -0000
>
>
>
>
>Dear Nina And Kom
>
>How are you?
>
>You wrote:
>
>" Dear Suan, yes, it is clear that kamma of the past produces the
>bhavangacitta that is vipakacitta. What I am puzzled about is that
>the javanacittas arising in processes can condition the
>bhavangacitta. I was wondering in what way they can do this, since
>the javana cittas arise in processes and the bhavangacitta is just in
>deep sleep so to say. Or did I misunderstand what you wrote? Best
>wishes from Nina."
>
>This problem has been raised by both of you (Kom off-list) previously
>many months before. I was occupied with many other matters which
>prevented me from solving this problem promptly. Not only that, I
>wanted to discuss this matter properly. And, even now, I won't be
>able to discuss this issue as much as I like.
>
>Sorry about this short reply.
>
>However, as you raised this question again, I will give you, as a
>quick answer, Buddhaghosa's statement on how javana cittas can
>condition bhavangacitta.
>
>The answer to this problem is to do with the timing and quality of
>javana cittas.
>
>When javana citta has the strength of a janaka kamma, it can modify
>bhavangacitta. In fact, it can cause new kinds of bhavangacitta to
>arise.
>
>The following Pali quote comes from Section 687,
>Kankhavitaranavisuddhi niddesa, Visuddhimaggo, Vol.2.
>
>  687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. Tam
>patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti.
>
>"...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy action. It (janaka
>kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise
>either at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) or during
>the current lifetime."
>
>Please kindly note that the resultant mental aggregates (aruupa
>vipaaka khandhaa) during the current lifetime refer to bhavanga
>cittas.
>
>
>You wrote:
>
>"Or did I misunderstand what you wrote?"
>
>I don't think you misunderstood what I wrote. Perhaps, you did not
>see a connection between what I wrote and what Buddhaghosa wrote.
>
>Having said that, Buddhaghosa wrote a disclaimer as well further down
>the paragraph to the effect that full understanding of how kamma and
>vipaaka works is the domain only of the Buddhas, not that of us.
>
>Hope this message solves your puzzle!
>
>
>With best wishes,
>
>
>Suan
>
>http://www.bodhiology.org
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> > op 01-01-2002 16:38 schreef abhidhammika op abhidhammika@y...:
> >
> > >>>> Nina wrote:
> > >
> > > " You say, bhavangacitta is conditioned by the javanacittas that
> > > arise. By what type of the  twentyfour conditions? I was puzzled
>by
> > > this."
> > >
> > >Suan: It is "KAMMAPACCAYO" that conditions bhavangacittam.
> > >
> > > The following qoute comes from Section 13, Paccayuddesa, Patthaana
> > > Pali, Vol.1. I copied and pasted from Chatthasangayana CD-ROM
>version
> > > 3.
> > >
> > > 13.    "Kammapaccayoti–    kusalaakusalam    kammam   (vipaakaanam
> > > khandhaanam, resultant mental aggregates)  katattaa ca ruupaanam
> > > kammapaccayena paccayo."
> > >
> > Dear Suan, yes, it is clear that kamma of the past produces the
> > bhavangacitta that is vipakacitta. What I am puzzled about is that
>the
> > javanacittas arising in processes can condition the bhavangacitta.
>I was
> > wondering in what way they can do this, since the javana cittas
>arise in
> > processes and the bhavangacitta is just in deep sleep so to say. Or
>did I
> > misunderstand what you wrote? Best wishes from Nina.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Suan,



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Dear Nina

How are you?

Just to say "You are welcome".


With regards,

Suan



--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Dear Suan, thank you for your patience in answering our questions
and
> providing us with the Pali. I find the subject more and more
complicated and
> I know you give this subject much thought. With appreciation, Nina.

Dear Ken

How are you?

You wrote and asked:

"k: I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga cittas
could not be change throughout ones life. Do you have commentary
texts to substantiate your point."

Yes, I have already provided the commentary Pali reference and
translation in my post 10521.

In fact, you asked me questions by reading what I wrote and what I
quote in that post. Perhaps, you had been incoherent and forgot
things too soon.

So, please kindly read the post 10521 again to read the commentary
Pali and its translation which had been provided for the sole purpose
of substantiating my very point.

With best wishes,

Suan

http://www.bodhiology.org








--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong <ashkenn@y...> wrote:
> Hi Suan
>
>
> > You asked:
> >
> > "Could you kindly explained the sentence "new kinds of
> > bhavangacittas"."
> >
> > Well, you first had the given bhavangacittas from birth. During
your
> > current lifetime, you happened to perform janaka kamma. Suppose
that
> > the effect of javana kamma did not wait till your next
conception,
> > and needed to appear during your currect lifetime. And, suppose
also
> > that the effect was the resultant mental aggregate (aruupa
vipaaka
> > khandhaa), then you got different kind of bhavangacitta. As
simple as
> > that.
>
> k:  I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga cittas
could
> not be change throughout ones life.  Do you have commentary texts to
> substantiate your point.
>
>
> > You also asked:
> >
> > "Secondly since the objects of bhavangacittas are the same
throughout
> > one's life, will that mean that these new kinds of bhavangacittas
> > have different objects."
> >
> > Yes, of course.
> >
> > You also asked:
> >
> > "Do you know of any commentaries that mention the objects of
> > bhavangcittas."
> >
> > Yes, I have read some. You may need to wait for exact references,
> > though.
> >
> > And, by the way, why are you obsessed by the objects of
> > bhavangacittas?
>
> k:  Oh, bc it is a subject that there is little information and too
much
> mystery :).
>
>
> Kind regards
> Ken O
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Dear Ong Teng Kee

How are you?

I am afraid I don't think I understand your message. Did you
carefully read my post 10521 that you were complaining about?

I provided Buddhaghosa's own statement on the matter both in Pali and
its translation. Not only that. I also mentioned Buddhaghosa's
disclaimer regarding the matter.

If you read Pali language, I could analyse the Pali quote word for
word, if necessary. If you do not read Pali, well, I am afraid I
could not help you in that way.

And, as I do not understand your message properly, I may not be able
to answer your questions, either. I do not find your post very
coherent, I am afraid. I am really sorry about my failure to resolve
your complaints on this occasion.

Of course, you may attempt to clarify your complaints after having
carefully read my post 10521.

It is a Buddhist virtue to remove someone's ignorance (my failure to
understand your message, in this case)!

Thank you for your attempt to make sense of my post and respond to it.


With kind regards,

Suan

http://www.bodhiology.org





--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" <otengkee@h...> wrote:
> Dear Mr.Suan,
> I think buddhaghosa would say you are having crazy idea about
bhavanga.He
> would say you are just a non theravadin.Read ch.20 in Visuddhimagga
for
> kamma produce material,bhavanga citta produce material during life
time.You
> cannot say during life time we produce kamma call janaka kamma
because those
> are supplanmanting kamma etc.Janaka kamma cannot be change after
rebirth
> citta.janaka kamma basically means  our life time span produce from
previous
> life.Are you saying that we can change from among 4 kinds of two
roots to 4
> kinds of three roots or from ahetu to two roots.We are still not
enter into
> bhavanga citta of brahma when we attain jhana as a human because we
are
> merely attain into form/formless javana.Do not be overclever.
>
>
>
>
> >From: "abhidhammika" <abhidhammika@y...>
> >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y...
> >To: dhammastudygroup@y...
> >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom On Kamma
Modifying
> >Bhavanga Cittam
> >Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:24:13 -0000
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Dear Nina And Kom
> >
> >How are you?
> >
> >You wrote:
> >
> >" Dear Suan, yes, it is clear that kamma of the past produces the
> >bhavangacitta that is vipakacitta. What I am puzzled about is that
> >the javanacittas arising in processes can condition the
> >bhavangacitta. I was wondering in what way they can do this, since
> >the javana cittas arise in processes and the bhavangacitta is just
in
> >deep sleep so to say. Or did I misunderstand what you wrote? Best
> >wishes from Nina."
> >
> >This problem has been raised by both of you (Kom off-list)
previously
> >many months before. I was occupied with many other matters which
> >prevented me from solving this problem promptly. Not only that, I
> >wanted to discuss this matter properly. And, even now, I won't be
> >able to discuss this issue as much as I like.
> >
> >Sorry about this short reply.
> >
> >However, as you raised this question again, I will give you, as a
> >quick answer, Buddhaghosa's statement on how javana cittas can
> >condition bhavangacitta.
> >
> >The answer to this problem is to do with the timing and quality of
> >javana cittas.
> >
> >When javana citta has the strength of a janaka kamma, it can modify
> >bhavangacitta. In fact, it can cause new kinds of bhavangacitta to
> >arise.
> >
> >The following Pali quote comes from Section 687,
> >Kankhavitaranavisuddhi niddesa, Visuddhimaggo, Vol.2.
> >
> >  687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. Tam
> >patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti.
> >
> >"...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy action. It
(janaka
> >kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise
> >either at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) or
during
> >the current lifetime."
> >
> >Please kindly note that the resultant mental aggregates (aruupa
> >vipaaka khandhaa) during the current lifetime refer to bhavanga
> >cittas.
> >
> >
> >You wrote:
> >
> >"Or did I misunderstand what you wrote?"
> >
> >I don't think you misunderstood what I wrote. Perhaps, you did not
> >see a connection between what I wrote and what Buddhaghosa wrote.
> >
> >Having said that, Buddhaghosa wrote a disclaimer as well further
down
> >the paragraph to the effect that full understanding of how kamma
and
> >vipaaka works is the domain only of the Buddhas, not that of us.
> >
> >Hope this message solves your puzzle!
> >
> >
> >With best wishes,
> >
> >
> >Suan
> >
> >http://www.bodhiology.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> > > op 01-01-2002 16:38 schreef abhidhammika op abhidhammika@y...:
> > >
> > > >>>> Nina wrote:
> > > >
> > > > " You say, bhavangacitta is conditioned by the javanacittas
that
> > > > arise. By what type of the  twentyfour conditions? I was
puzzled
> >by
> > > > this."
> > > >
> > > >Suan: It is "KAMMAPACCAYO" that conditions bhavangacittam.
> > > >
> > > > The following qoute comes from Section 13, Paccayuddesa,
Patthaana
> > > > Pali, Vol.1. I copied and pasted from Chatthasangayana CD-ROM
> >version
> > > > 3.
> > > >
> > > > 13.    "Kammapaccayoti–    kusalaakusalam    kammam
(vipaakaanam
> > > > khandhaanam, resultant mental aggregates)  katattaa ca
ruupaanam
> > > > kammapaccayena paccayo."
> > > >
> > > Dear Suan, yes, it is clear that kamma of the past produces the
> > > bhavangacitta that is vipakacitta. What I am puzzled about is
that
> >the
> > > javanacittas arising in processes can condition the
bhavangacitta.
> >I was
> > > wondering in what way they can do this, since the javana cittas
> >arise in
> > > processes and the bhavangacitta is just in deep sleep so to
say. Or
> >did I
> > > misunderstand what you wrote? Best wishes from Nina.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Suan,
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Dear Kom and everyone on the list,
First, a very happy new year to you all, and especially anomodhana to everyone
for providing wonderful opportunities for contemplation, sati and understanding
to arise, as conditioned by the insightful discussions here.

There has been much discussion of "cheating" dhammas, and we tend to think that
just because akusala cittas/cetasikas arose just after the kusala, that somehow
the kusala has thus been "tainted" to some extent. But, I'd like to think that
just being able to recognize both the kusala and the akusala that arose is an
excellent indication that sati, and perhaps understanding, has arisen. So, as
long as sati has arisen too, "progress" can be "seen.".

Let me relate a personal experience that just occurred just before new years,
and which Sarah asked me to write about. After our wonderful discussions here in
Bkk last Saturday and Sunday (I couldn't make it on Monday), enhanced by the
visit of Sarah, Jon, Jaran and Christine, we had gone to feed the fish. I went
on home and discovered that my good, dress watch must have slipped off my wrist
somewhere between the fish and home. It was lost, and yet I felt no regret, no
attachment to it (ubekha-kusala=anatta). But then, right after that a feeling of
pride arose: great, I'm proud of myself for not getting upset over the loss of
the watch (mana-akusala=self concept). Then, more akusala arose, because the
thought arose that the ubekha had been "cancelled out" by the akusala (dosa).
Later still, it was realized that being able just to "follow" the process of the
arising of these cittas and cetasikas was sati itself, and it was ok.

Looking forward to seeing you all making it to Bkk in the near, and not too
distant, future.

with metta,
Betty
_______________________
Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
e-mail: beyugala@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Ken O,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@...]
> > We know in some situations that the citta, with the
> > cetasikas, are described as pure.  So far, we hear from
> > people the following theories:
> > 1) Bhawanga is pure, as the commentaries have
> described it.
> > However, I haven't seen the details if this is
> inclusive of
> > all bhawanga, or does it just include the bhawangas with
> > 2-hetu/3-hetus.  How about the other sobhana vipakas?
> > 2) Some have alluded to that all sobhana cittas are all
> > pure, so this includes all vipaka/kusala/and kiriya with
> > 2-hetu/3-hetu.
> > 3) Some think the citta itself [maybe this is
> what you are
> > talking about?], even with the cetasikas, is
> itself pure.
> > This theory says all cittas (kusala/akusala/the
> rest) are
> > pure.  This perhaps may be due to the fact that
> cittas are
> > said to see all the details of the object (although it
> > doesn't penetrate the true characteristics),
> and that citta
> > is defiled by kilesa (cetasikas), and not the other way
> > around.
> >
> > Do you think the Buddha maybe describing one of
> the above
> > situations, or do you think he is describing a pure
> > consciousness that transcends all conditioned realities?
> >
> > kom
>
>
> I don't think Buddha would describe there is a
> pure consciouness that
> transcends all conditioned realities. This would
> imply an underlying
> nature.  The problem with the reason that all
> cittas are pure are weak bc
>
> a.  Firstly all cittas need at least two hetu as
> paccaya and the
> likelihood of aksuala hetu is more common for
> those who are not Arahant
>
> b.  Secondly, all cittas has latent defilements.
> Even bhavanga citta have
> latency and also hetu paccaya, how could it be
> pure. Luminious yes but not
> pure.
>
> c.  Pure could only be ascribed to when we are
> able to eradicate latent
> tendency which means a fully enlighted Arahant.
> This is probably why we
> mixed up those who are not enlightend and those
> who are when we describe
> cittas are pure.

You have no disagreements from me in any of these 3 points.
I think I was using the two words somewhat interchangeably,
but I like your distinction between luminous and pure
better.  So, what is your theory about the luminous citta?
One of 1 to 3 above?  None of the above?  Why?  I know you
didn't quite like the commentaries' explanations well
enough.

kom

Hello Sarah,

I posted a message on the list before saying where I lived.  At that
time I was in Philadelphia.  Now I am in the Washington, D. C. metro
area.  For past three year or so, discourses from the Pali Canon have
been a major source from which I learn what the Buddha taught.

Regards,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hello Victor,
>
>  --- yuzhonghao <victoryu@s...> wrote: > Hello Sarah,
> >
> > You questioned that "Can we say that a concept comes to be
because of
> > thinking?"  What do you think?  Can we?
>
> Well, it was a question for you, but yes, I think we can;-)
>
> You wrote that no thinking
> > means no concepts.  From what you wrote, it seems to me that you
mean
> > that concept is dependent on thinking.  This is how I understand
the
> > word "concept" from the online dictionary in
http://www.webster.com:
> > A concept means something conceived in the mind, a thought, a
> > notion.  It also means an abstract or generic idea generalized
from
> > particular instances.  The synonym to the word "concept" is the
> > word "idea."  I agree with you that thinking is conditioned.
>
> ..and I fully agree with all your comments here, Victor ;-)) Maybe a
> 'first'!
>
> Did you ever tell us where you live? I'd be interested to know a
little
> more about where you are and your study and interest in dhamma, now
we're
> in such agreement for a pleasant change;-)
>
> Sarah

i have been studing buddhism for only 3 months & seem to be at a loss trying
to "keep up" with your site's postings.
   thank you for being there , but please discontinue my subscription.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

op 03-01-2002 06:25 schreef Kom Tukovinit op tikmok@...:
>
> Here's the second posting listing some of what "cheating"
> dhammas remind me of.
>
> When I think of kusala that was done in the past with
> somanassa, I would like to think that the thinking itself is
> kusala, but it is really (or all mixed-up) with mana.
>
> When I am discussing dhammas with a person, I would like to
> think the motivation is kusala.  This is all mixed up with
> mana (I am discussing dhamma), and sometimes even some
> irritation when the result is not what I want, or the other
> person does not agree.  The irritation is coarse but is
> often unnoticed, sometimes noticable by the voice being too
> loud (right, Num?), or the sentence being a little too terse
> and inconsiderate.
>
> When I am discussing dhamma with a person, I would like to
> think that it is for the useful benefit of others and
> myself.  It is really, sometimes, to get acknowledgement,
> even a small one.
>
> When I see something desirable, I sometimes think of the
> patikula characteristics of the seen thing.  It is really
> all with mixed-up with wanting to not having such strong
> lobha.  Although this is not quite like "patikkulasanna
> pathirupena vyapado vancethi (2)", but this reminds me so.
>
> When I see giving, or seeing good vipakas of other people, I
> sometimes feel jealous, but sometimes followed by
> anumoddhana / mudita.  Part of what I think is kusala, or
> all of it, is fake, wanting to have kusala instead of
> akusala, or just plainly not liking the domanassa vedana.
>
> When I study the dhamma (or discusses) dhammas, I sometimes
> feel peace.  I would like to think it is the result of
> kaya-passadhi and citta-passadhi, but often, it is just
> plain Dheena-mitha.  samadhimukhena thinamiddhang vangcethi
> (3) is exactly like that.
>
> When I considers the dhamma (or analyzes the dhamma)
> excessively, especially on the thing that cannot (yet) be
> truly known (like analyzing things via conditionalities), I
> would like to think I am developing conceptual
> understandings, but is really uddhaca (and becomes obvious
> toward the end).  This is just like viriyarambhamukhena
> uddhaccang vangcethi (4).
>
> vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi
> vanceti (9).  I don't know if this applies to myself, but I
> sometimes wonder if how I understand things just happens to
> be how I like it.  Uddacha again.
>
> I say something decent/kind to other people.  I would like
> to think of it is metta, but it is often mixed up with
> wanting to be liked.   samvibhaga seelata patirupataya
> miccajivo vangceti (13), and piyavadita patirupataya
> catukammata vangceti
> (18) remind me of this.
>
> I am not very talkative person.  I would like to think that
> it is not being mixed up something that is not useful.
> Sometimes, it is just plain laziness (dina-mitha, again), or
> because of not having metta for others.  mitabhanata
> patirupataya asammodana seelata vangceti (19) is exactly
> like this.
>
> attadhipateyyata patirupataya garunam anusasaniya
> appadakkhinaggahita
> vangceti (32).  I am often feel grateful for a few people in
> this group who see  dhammas in other's sayings, even when in
> many (or most) cases, they don't agree with one another.  I
> am inpired by Boddhisatta for seeing dhammas in sayings that
> are not intended to be dhamma.  It requires such a long
> accumulation to be reminded of the true dhammas even when
> one hears what is not dhamma.
>
> mettayana mukhena raago vangceti (35): raga as the metta.
> Try metta with a pretty girl, eh, Num?
>
> Listing some lists like this - it may be only because I want
> to show off that I am aware of some of these akusalas!

> Dear Kom, thank you for these excellent reminders, I am glad I asked you. We
are such a mixture of kusala and akusala, mostly akusala. Sometimes we
think: we cannot do anything anymore, it is only akusala. Mike felt
discouraged, we all have such moments of discouragement. Where is the
cheerfulness of Dhamma? We should be glad to know. It is good to just know
and understand that there are many ways by which we are deceived by our
akusala, but not try to catch such moments the whole day. I had such feeling
when discussing conceit, mana in India: mana the whole day: whenever there
is the other person and myself. Or even not comparing, still mana.  As you
also mentioned, thinking and analysing too much. A. Supee kept on saying:
lobha is so natural, normal (thammada, thammada).
I lost the pali text and translation of these deceivers, and could not make
out some of the Pali: seelata (13) must be siilata? And the Pali of 32 I
could not make out.
As promised, another example of studying details, as to Condiitons. I was
impressed by the Thai tapes of A. Sujin on conditions, so much related to
daily life. I decided to write my Intro to Conditions. I read in Guide to
Conditional Relations, U Narada, about many details, finding the numbers of
common conditions, the enumerations. I tried a few but then found that it
did not help me personally, that it was above me, so I left that. It depends
on one's personal inclination again how many details are helpful.

I paste your other remark about analysing:
K:
Regarding analysis, I think I like to do this too, even
though it is impossible to do a proper analysis.  In India,
we discussed "identification" issues.  She mentioned that
unless one has reached a level of vipassana-nana (which one?
nama-rupa?) it is really not possible to see clearly the
difference between the different nama, e.g., lobha and dosa.
Until one reaches the vipassana-nana, then the lakhana of
the dhamma as being dhamma is not apparent, and therefore
the differences (of the lakkhana) between the namas cannot
be clearly seen.
N: When one has reached the first vipassana nana (nama-rupa) the different
akusala dhammas are seen as only elements, nama dhammas. Dosa and lobha have
different characteristics, we notice them, but they are not yet seen as just
namas. We think of them and we begin to be aware of them.

Hence, for those of us who likes to identify (in words or
not), she mention that this is not fruitful (as it is
impossible to clearly see).  She said (or came close to
saying) that instead of identification, seeing the lakhana
of the nama that knows (the previous object?) would help
with understandings more.  Of course, unless one understands
why identification (and analysis) is not as useful, or sees
(perhaps) the lobha that comes with the
identification/analysis, then one continues to analyze...

It is more useful to be aware of what appears, thus, we should not neglect
visible object, seeing, sound, etc. It depends on condiitons, sometimes
there are conditions to think a lot, but this is not I who thinks. We do not
think of whether it is a previous object, that is again thinking. But again,
we are likely to think more often than being aware. It is natural.

Best wishes, Nina.

>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]