Danas, Belgrade, Yugoslavia
October 21-22, 2000

I am prepared for talks with Kostunica

"We must give Mr. Kostunica some time. Of course, the arrival of
democracy and changes in Belgrade is an opportunity for beginning dialog
with the FRY authorities, which will be of help both their and my own
everyday policies. Therefore, I am waiting"

[PHOTO: http://www.danasnews.com/20001021/images\vikend3_2.jpg]
Serbs and Albanians have not communicated in 13 centuries: Bernard
Kouchner (BOSTIJAN SLATENSEK)

"I was absolutely opposed to the formation of enclaves but in the end I
agreed because it was the only way to protect the Serbs. When we came
here to Pristina, it was a wasteland. What we have now is normal life.
At that time people were being killed in the streets, which is no longer
the case," says the head of the United Nations Mission In Kosovo,
Bernard Kouchner, at the beginning of an interview with "Danas".

Kouchner is quite theatrical. He gives the impression of a man who is
trying to convince his audience in the validity of his words through
gesticulation and constant changes in the pitch of his voice. Perhaps a
bit ambitious ("you are asking me to change the Balkans in a single
year"). And cunning; he skillfully avoided answering the question
whether Kosovo would gain independence ("ask the Albanians and Serbs, I
am not their representative"). Now, after the fall of Milosevic's regime
and democratic changes in Serbia, Kouchner assesses the situation in
Kosovo as having improved considerably.

KOUCHNER: We must give Mr. Kostunica some time. Of course, the arrival
of democracy and changes in Belgrade is an opportunity for beginning
dialog with the FRY authorities, which will be of help both their and my
own everyday policies. Therefore, I am waiting.

DANAS: In one of the statements you said that Mr. Kostunica should
release illegally imprisoned Albanians?

KOUCHNER: Yes, of course. There are two reasons for this. The first is
that about a thousand of them have already been released for a certain
amount of money. That is not honest, that is not just. Those families
which have money were able to pay to free their loved ones. That is not
legal.

Another reason is that the majority of them were arrested in the
streets, in houses, in beds, only because an order was issued to the
army and police. They were sentenced on the basis of collective guilt,
which is against all human rights throughout the world. For example,
last time in Nis 123 from Djakovica were sentenced together to a
thousand years in prison. This is not only illegal, not only dishonest,
it is scandalous.

DANAS: After you asked Kostunica to release illegally imprisoned
Albanians, the Serb side asked for the resolution of the issue of
approximately a thousand missing Serbs, did it not?

KOUCHNER: Is anyone at all reading what I have said in Kosovo during the
past 16 months? When I am talking about illegally imprisoned Albanians,
they are the ones in Serbia, not here. I am absolutely prepared to open
the doors of the prisoners, and I have done so already, to all Serb
attorneys who wish to come and see the cases. I have always offered them
the opportunity to investigate here. We need to ask the Serb authorities
about the illegally imprisoned persons about whom we are talking.

We have not received any kind of news from either the Serb nor the
Albanian side regarding missing persons, I mean both Serbs and
Albanians. I believe that the majority of them are unfortunately dead.
Missing and imprisoned persons are not the same thing. The imprisoned
are those who are imprisoned in Serbian jails; we have to ask those
responsible over there about them, not others.

DANAS: At the meeting in Luxembourg at the beginning of last week you
said that you would go to Belgrade if Mr. Kostunica invited you. Have
you received an invitation?

KOUCHNER: I don't know when I will go to Belgrade. If Mr. Kostunica
invites me I will go but he has not done so yet. I have many
responsibilities in Kosovo but of course we must begin the discussion.
He certainly needs to begin discussion with UNMIK. I am ready.

DANAS: At the meeting in Luxembourg you opposed the lifting of sanctions
against FR Yugoslavia?

KOUCHNER: I was never opposed to the lifting of sanctions. What I said
in Luxembourg was: you want to lift the sanctions, I am not the person
to decide whether they should be lifted or not but I ask you to please
offer them this as a parallel measure for releasing the prisoners. I
personally have been opposed to the sanctions for quite some time. I
think they are ineffective. The release of the prisoners was not a
condition, I proposed that this be a part of a future plan because I am
responsible for the local people who have suffered so much. That is my
duty.

DANAS: How do changes in Serbia impact the Kosovo Serbs and the Kosovo
Albanians?

KOUCHNER: Everyone welcomed the changes and was happy that democracy had
arrived but some of them were not fond of Mr. Kostunica because he
supports nationalism and because he opposed the autonomy of Kosovo
according to the Constitution of 1974. In the end everyone agreed that
this is a good opportunity to open discussion.

I assume that the Albanians assume that it will be more difficult for
them. Some of the Albanian representatives are not fond of the new
government because, for example, Mr. Djindjic was involved in the
Bosnian war.

I am not their representatives and cannot speak on their behalf; the
truth is that they were happy because of the change but they will make
their decisions on the basis of facts.

DANAS: Will Kostunica's victory make the job of the UNMIK administration
and the international community easier?

KOUCHNER: I hope that it will. But until people's behavior changes it
will not be easier. At the change of command ceremony of NATO everyone
was there together, both Serb and Albanian leaders, and the atmosphere
was different, more open. Things are moving ahead but slowly. People are
still confronted with suffering, mass graves continue to be opened. Only
16 months have passed.

DANAS: According to Security Council Resolution 1244, a fixed number of
FRY police and army forces, more precisely, less than a thousand, have
the right to return to Kosovo...

KOUCHNER: No, I don't want them to send troops. I don't want a new war.
All the other parts are implemented, why are you talking about the one
part that is not...

DANAS: I'm only asking whether it is possible.

KOUCHNER: It's not!

DANAS: Considering that Kostunica is the new president of FRY, what if
there are big changes in Serbia?

KOUCHNER: If the Yugoslav Army and police return here to Kosovo as
foreseen by Resolution 1244, they will be killed. We would need to
protect those troops with a large number of our international troops,
which is senseless. It's not possible. I am not the only one who rejects
this; it is also rejected by KFOR and by everyone else. The
implementation of Resolution 1244 cannot be realized in a single day.
It's a long process. At this time the return of the Yugoslav Army and
police is not possible. There would be another bloodbath. I am in charge
for security and peace, not war.

If things change, and I hope that they will, we'll see. I don't know.

DANAS: Change in what sense?

KOUCHNER: In the sense of opening of people and opening of borders
everywhere. Not only borders between countries, but also borders between
people's heads.

DANAS: For the peace process in Kosovo, communication between the Serbs
and Albanians is essential; they don't seem to be communicating.

KOUCHNER: Impression or no, but the reality is that they have never
communicated, for centuries. Not in schools, not in colleges, nowhere.
They ignored each other. You have not noticed this here in the Balkans,
where you were born, but I have.

They have been together in this region for 13 centuries and they did not
communicate; instead, they fought. You must set aside a realistic period
of time for hope. It will be done. When, I don't know. Kosovo is moving
toward something better but there are many things as yet undone.

DANAS: How long will the mission remain here, consider that you just
said that these two nations have not been talking to each other for the
past 13 centuries?

KOUCHNER: I don't know. Long enough for us to change people, to create
success, not for me but for them. Do you have different advice; do you
want the Yugoslav Army to return? What would be accomplished if the
Yugoslav Army were here? You saw the results: war, murder, mass murder.
The peacekeeping mission needs about 20 years. There is no other way.

DANAS: President Kostunica said that a solution for Kosovo could be
found in two to three years. What do you think?

KOUCHNER: It depends on them. I think that reality will force him to
think about Kosovo before two or three years have elapsed.

DANAS: How do you assess the security situation in Kosovo, especially in
relation to the Serbs?

KOUCHNER: As inadequate, certainly. We still have two to four, sometimes
more, murders per week. Since the beginning of the pre-election
campaign, the level of ethnic and political violence has been greatly
reduced.

Unfortunately, just today a landmine exploded in Obilic and one Serb man
was killed. When we arrived there were 45 murders per week.

We cannot protect every single Serb separately by giving him personal
protection; we must change the behavior of people. This means building
confidence, offering them the acceptance of coexistence, offering them
democracy.

A month ago we began a campaign of tolerance-building campaign in the
schools. After the elections, there will be a similar campaign for
adults. We have a lot of registered NGO's specializing in human
rights...

DANAS: Are you satisfied with what you have accomplished?

KOUCHNER: I am never satisfied. We did the best that we could but it is
not enough. Now we have a mixed Kosovo police composition. A few days
ago I held a speech at the police academy for the ninth generation and
we have 2,249 policemen, of whom 10 percent are Serbs. We have to only
two multiethnic community services, the firefighters and the policemen.

DANAS: The Serbs in the north of Kosovo feel they are the victims of the
politics of the international community which was directed against
Milosevic. How do you comment on this?

KOUCHNER: We helped them like we helped all the others. We took over the
smelter in Zvecan, we paid them the same amount of money. It's true that
we gave the Albanians more to start with but now this has been
equalized: 1,000 in the north, 1,000 in the south.

People in the north were in a difficult position, poor, without any
source of income and they were only receiving some kind of dinars. We
paid them in German marks because that's what they asked for. Don't tell
me that I am building an independent Kosovo because I paid them in
German marks when that's what they asked for.

DANAS: What will happen with Trepca?

KOUCHNER: I don't know; it will take 20 years for it to recover. I
personally begged people throughout the world to collect 16 million
dollars in order to create security for the employees. Trepca is a
museum of horror. In order to restart the process and, of course,
provide security for the environment, we will provide another few
million dollars.

DANAS: Are you satisfied with the international community?

KOUCHNER: No, I am never satisfied; I want much more. In the beginning
there was more. I need to convince them at the end of this year and the
beginning of the next. This is the first time in the history of the
world that all donators are contributing for a budget and not for a
project. As far as the budget is concerned, everyone is suspicious
because that is an enormous, bottomless hole.

They completely rejected, at my first meeting in Brussels, to give money
for a budget. And what about pensions? I have big problems with the
Kosovars and the Serbs because I am no longer receiving money from
Belgrade nor anywhere else. I don't have enough money for everyone;
therefore, I need to convince them to create a fund for pensions; I
don't know whether I will succeed.

DANAS: Is Trepca a potential source of income, considering the fact that
the market price of lead is increasing each year by three percent?

KOUCHNER: If we manage to start it up again but so that it is safe for
workers and the environment. You cannot imagine what kind of blood
samples we have now. We have to reconstruct it, put filters in the
chimneys and so on. If it starts working it will give enough money for
us to pay the employees of Trepca. It cannot produce enough; some taxes
for the budget, yes, but not enough for the budget of Kosovo.

* * * * *

Serbs and Albanians are the same

" Here there are almost no mixed marriages; in Bosnia there are about 10
percent, here it is less than one percent. Albanians and Serbs don't
know each other. In every country, even during the worst of war times
such as in Cambodia and Vietnam, people knew someone on the other side.
If you ask some Albanian journalist, for example, Veton Surroi, whether
he knows a Serb journalist he will tell you no. Ask a physician, an
architect, any one at all; they know no one on the other side. Doctors
in the hospital worked in the same department but they never ate
together.

"Both sides are the actually the same. And they are the same in essence,
isolated in their minds. This is some sort of incomprehensible lack of
comprehension. They didn't talk to each other and so it was not possible
for them to understand each other."

Slow Serb returns

"From the beginning we have been in favor of Serb returns and to date
about 1,500 have returned but that is not enough. We have begun to
reconstruct several villages for the Serbs. Now we have begun one
project with French money, another with Dutch; we have a big program for
Serb returns but it will probably take some time.

"We cannot receive 100,000 Serbs because violence would break out again.
We need to win over enough confidence from the Albanians. We need to
begin discussion and initiate the issue of the open wound of Kosovo,
missing persons. If they are dead, we have to say they are dead because
their families want to bury them; that is a part of tradition among both
Serbs and Albanians. That is our goal. We cannot talk about
reconciliation; it is too early; we must talk about coexistence
instead."

French imperfection

A French journalist, one of the many members of this profession who
reside in Kosovo, relayed the news that after the elections, Kouchner
would leave the mission in Kosovo. There is also talk that he has been
appointed to the position of UN high commissioner for refugees to
replace Sadako Ogata. Kouchner commented on the claims of his compatriot
as follows: "It is better that you do not believe French reporters. I
don't know; I don't know; I am not leaving." To the question: "And
should I believe you?", he replied:

"Unfortunately, no one is perfect. I am a Frenchman. But it is better
than you believe me because if you do not believe me it will be
difficult for hope."

Tito was a lucky guy

DANAS: In Kosovo there are 29 political parties, citizens' groups and
independent candidates registered for the local elections, of whom 19
are new. How do you comment on the pre-election campaigns of these
parties for the Kosovo local elections? Are they democratic? How do you
comment the fact that former KLA commanders have gone into politics and
founded new political parties?

KOUCHNER: That is all right. That is the only way to stop the war: to go
into politics. Hardinaj went into politics. In my country it was the
same. And Tito did the same thing; he had a party after the war; he was
a "lucky guy" and a "freedom fighter"; he fought against the Nazis. In
Italy it was the same; everywhere, it is the same; it is a normal
process. Here there are 5,000 candidates, more than 1,500 women; that is
great progress for democracy. Unfortunately for the Serbs, they did not
want to nominate themselves and now they cannot vote. The incident is
well-known which occurred in Leposavic, where Serbs who wanted to
register were brutally abused by Milosevic's and Ivanovic's people.

You are asking me to change the Balkans in a single year

DANAS: Education is still the same as it was before. How are you going
to change it?

KOUCHNER: Some of the textbooks have already been changed;
unfortunately, only for the Albanians. What about the Bosniacs, the
Roma, the Serbs... We need to change the school system, the mentality of
the instructors... But believe me, things are changing. Yesterday we
opened a new school in the vicinity of Kosovo Polje; the school was full
of peasants. It is an absolute novelty for us to invite the parents to
come, for us to be in contact with them. For the past ten years, people
functioned in a parallel system. They worked in caves; the children
learned in basements. Now 95 percent of children go to elementary
school, secondary school and university. That is a miracle, we have done
so much. You are asking me to change the Balkans in a single year.

Translated by S. Lazovic (Oct. 23, 2000)