Below is Lynn's excellent reply to Sid. I applaud this one as well.
Bravo.

I'll post this one right after Sid's comment under 'feedback' at
http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/HomeChurch/

My, what an amazine dialogue this post has evoked.

Sterling

----- Original Message -----
From: "L.M. Enterprises" <htrails@...>
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ridenhour] But there are gifts abundantly manifest
among the faithful Mormons!


About spiritual gifts.....

As we've said before--the believer lives in a steady state of
wholesome
tension between character and charisma

Most people tend to emphasize one side or the other. They are usually
more
charisma-oriented or character-oriented. Whichever side one is on, he
tends
to be biased toward that side and to lean away from the other. Both
sides
are fully necessary without exception. It is the healthy state of a
believer
to find himself pulled in both directions.

We need to have both areas fully developed in our lives. If one walks
in the
charisma of God without integrity, he is a phony and a loud-sounding
cymbal.
If he continues to seek supernatural experience without the
guidelines of
moral character, he can be soon led off into false prophecy and
self-deception.

On the other hand, if a man says he is developing character because
it is
more important than charisma, his character may not be filled with
the life
and love of God. He may say love is more important than faith, but
the love
of neighbor stems out of the love of God, which comes first.

If one truly is developed in character, he will be brought more and
more to
an awareness of his absolute inability to do anything outside of the
full
spiritual power of God. His very character and integrity will lead
him to
see his own need for more than just character. If his character is
truly
genuine, it will catapult him into the live of charisma. If one
pleads his
case always for character to the avoidance of charisma, that
character is
either not genuine or it has not been developed to its full extent.
True
character must cross the line into depending on the miraculous power
of God.

As an old Baptist minister once said to me, "the Word without the
Spirit
will make a Pharisee out of you. The Spirit without the Word will
make a
phony out of you.."

I like to say it this way: The Word without the Spirit will make you
dry
up. The Spirit without the Word will make you blow up. The Word
with the
Spirit will make you grow up.

I know it's a cliché, but it says what I want it to say.

Just a couple things about Sid's letter. And by the way, I enjoyed
Sid's
letter immensely. And essentially agree and rejoice in what he's
saying.
To begin with, Sid's letter accents what we have believed for some
time-and
that is, the Lord in these last days will pour out His Spirit on all
groups.
I am totally convinced, the Lord will and is visiting our LDS
brothers &
sisters. We rejoice in that. It's my firm belief that the Lord is
visiting
all restoration groups; i.e., LDS, RLDS, Culterites, Strangites,
Temple Lot,
Elijah Messenger-all of them. He is also visiting the Protestants &
Catholics. His Word says "...all flesh." I rejoice in that. That
means-He
's visiting the "churched" and the non-churched.

Secondly, I only see two alternatives: 1) a visitation of the real
fire of
the Holy Ghost, along with some wild fire (it's inevitable), and/or
2) no
fire. Sid made mention of some potential excesses of display at the
end of
his letter. I must say, I'm with Rick Joyner on this one:

Joyner, in his book "The World Aflame," a study of the past Welsh
Revival,
says:

"Few would question that some of the emotional demonstrations still
found in
Pentecostal or Charismatic meetings are rooted in attention seeking,
and
sometimes they may even be demonic. But those who condemn such
meetings
because of the outbursts would have to also condemn the Lord's own
meetings.
When He walked the earth, there were the same kind of outbursts in His
gatherings. [good point]

Contrary to some popular teachings, love is an emotion. The Lord
Jesus
actually encouraged emotional demonstrations of love for Him, such as
the
pouring out of the costly ointment and even the washing of His feet
with
tears.

What husband would want to hear from his wife that she no longer feels
anything for him but serves him because it is her duty? What wife
would
care to be told by her husband that he loved her with the power of
his will
even though he had no feelings for her? Even though the marriage may
still
exist, the life is gone. Those who serve the Lord only by their will
and
not with their emotions have likewise lost the life in their union
with the
Lord. Do you think the Lord receives our hymns during worship if we
are
only singing out of duty and do not feel anything for Him? Just as
the Lord
exhorted through many of His prophets, such worship is vain. True
worship
can only be found in the proper balance between the will and the
emotions,
but we must have both.

When people have been subject to nothing but cold, lifeless religion
and are
suddenly touched by the living God, it is impossible for most not to
become
emotional, and thy often go to the other extreme for awhile, becoming
too
emotional. It is of course best to be properly balanced, but if we
must
have an extreme, it would certainly be better to be extreme in our
show of
emotion to Him. Our Pharisaical nature will always be offended at
this,
just as they were in the Lord's meetings. Yet, when we become raging
maniacs at our favorite sporting event, this only shows who we really
worship.

It is impossible to feel God's presence without feeling a passionate
love
for Him...Though it may be unintentional, those who attack emotional
responses to the Lord, are, in fact, stealing the life from our
worship.
Emotions are not meant to be the thermostat of human personality, but
they
are a relatively accurate thermometer. That is, our emotions should
not
control us, but they do reveal us." --The World Aflame, pp.111,112

I think Joyner covers all the bases.

I can say from personal experience, every miracle my wife and I have
witnessed, has brought a spontaneous display of varied emotions:
humble
gratitude, extreme joy & elation, surprise, a sense of being
overwhelmed,
great relief, laughter, tears, talking a mile a minute. And the
emotions
were not solicited. That's the common trait with all the miracles
we've
witnessed. Responses were more like an outburst. And typically, the
person or persons receiving the miracle would say something
like "...this is
not at all like me..."

One last matter.

Mark makes the statement at the end of his gospel, "...and these
signs shall
follow them that believe..." (16:17). Again, a cliché fits what I
want to
say.

Believers are not to follow signs; signs follow believers.

We do not seek miracles & manifestations. We are always to seek the
Lord of
miracles. How-and if--He chooses to manifest Himself is completely
up to
Him, and really-it's none of our business. Our focus is on Him.
It's been
my experience ever since my wife and I experienced the baptism in the
Holy
Spirit-more times than not He has chosen to manifest Himself.

Lynn

----- Original Message -----
From: Sterling D. Allan <sterlingda@...>
To: David's Outcasts e-group <davids_outcasts@egroups.com>; Sterling's
Friends <SDAfriends@yahoogroups.com>; Ridenhour e-group
<ridenhour@yahoogroups.com>; Greater Things Newsletter
<Greater_Things@yahoogroups.com>; Greater Things Christian Newsletter
<gt_christian@egroups.com>; Sterling's Biggies
<SDAbiggies@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 6:17 PM
Subject: [ridenhour] But there are gifts abundantly manifest among the
faithful Mormons!


> Sid makes a very power case here, and I tend to go with him on this
one,
> especially on his point about signs being something that follow, not
> something for show (which, Lynn, I can't help but think is the
tendency
> among the charismatics as well as you to a certain extent. no?). I
will
> vouch with you that there are still outpourings of gifts of the
Spirit in
> the CJC. By the way, CJC stands for "Church of Jesus Christ."
This is
the
> first time I've seen that one. It won't be the last!
>
> Thanks, Sid, for writing this up. It has done more than almost any
other
> thing you have written to pull my feelings back toward one of
respect for
> the Church. I will be adding it to the "Why I Quit Church" follow-
up
> section.
>
> http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/HomeChurch/
>
> Sterling
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sid Unrau Gentleman and Father" <sidunrau@...>
> To: <sterlingda@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:36 PM
> Subject: Sid's New Comments
>
>
> Sterling:
>
> Yes, I think you're right about what Lynn was referring to; I have
been
> reading MUCH lately and I think I misremembered his focus (although
teh
> stuff I mentioned is included, I think). But, concerning your
direct
> question about gifts of the Spirit, below, they are more private
than some
> of the events reported in the New Testament (or other scriptures,
for that
> matter), and yet they are pretty constant in the CJC communite.
There are
> some notable recent rather amazing events (almost public; I
say "almost"
> because some in attendance did not witness the same things -
similar to
the
> Brigham Young/Joseph Smith transformation (it is actually attested
in only
> VERY few journals; the reason for the story's popularity is that
some of
> those who did witness it were GA's who later testified of it in
conference),
> such as: the overflowing of the Spirit at recent temple dedications
(Palmyra
> & Winter Quarters), the dedication of the Conference Center (some
reported
> seeing angels), and various reports from Area conferences (most
recent I
> know if was a couple of weeks ago in San Antonio, when the new
temple was
> announced). On a smaller (but still mostly public) level, we see
the
gifts
> of the Spirit manifest all the time; in two recent baptismal
meetings in
our
> ward (and during one subsequent confirmation) we experienced the
gift of
> tongues (for the confirmation, several ward members understood
certain
> specific blessings given, even though they didn't speak Spanish, the
> language the confirmation was performed in), healings (we've had
several
> rather remarkable healings, including the single mom on her death
bed who
> was commanded to rise up and walk; she did, and her doctors have
scrambled
> to provide alternative explanations; one of my close friends is an
ICU
nurse
> at the UVRMC hospital and she says the healing miracles there are
legion),
> and angelic ministering at a leadership meeting I attended earlier
this
year
> in the Provo Tabernacle with Elder Ballard (I arrived to the
meeting late,
> as I was attending a funeral, but many there saw angels as Elder
Ballard
> bore his testimony of his apostolic call; a similar event happened
on my
> mission - while I was out calling for the cab to take my district
to the
> train station, the visiting GA bore his testimony in Danish, and
several -
> even some non-members - saw angels; I felt that but did not "see"
that; I
> have seen other things).
>
> As you know, the list of "gifts of the Spirit" is much longer than
the one
> you suggest. In our more private meetings - setting apart people
for
> callings, sometimes issuing the callings themselves, family home
evenings,
> etc. - I have also personally witnessed many many manifestations of
the
> gifts of the Spirit. Two most poignant such experiences whilst I
have
been
> in the bishopric include a re-fellowshipment disciplinary counsel
and a
> temple recommend interview.
>
> But my experiences are not unique to me or my ward or my
perspective; a
> quick polling of my (faithful CJC) friends in Arkansas, Washington,
> Wisconsin, Texas, Indiana, Utah, Nevada and Arizona confirm that
these
kinds
> of events are manifest all the time; some have eyes to see, some
don't.
>
> So, ultimately, I do not agree that these things are not abundantly
manifest
> in the lives of CJC churchmembers; in fact, it seems to me that the
kinds
of
> longings expressed (by Lynn, etc.) seem almost to be seeking a sign.
> Rather, signs FOLLOW (i.e., are not necessarily are invoked) those
who
> believe.
>
> Incidentally, one thing Joseph taught was that heavenly
manifestations
> always were enlightening (i.e., not merely for the sake of
manifestation,
> but had some revelatory purpose). One of my baptist cousins is a
preacher
> and told me that one of the "activities" he has been involved with
is
> "awakenings" where the congregants raise hands, shout Hallelujah!,
jump
> around, sometimes speak in some jibberish, etc.; he explained the
euphoric
> excitement of such experiences. I asked them how he thought they
uplifted,
> brought people closer to the Savior (and living right), etc. and he
said
> that such experiences were the validation of the exercise of
faith. I
asked
> him if he personally knew any who were actually uplifted by the
whole
> experience after having exercised faith; he explained that
the "faith" he
> was referring to was that expressed there in the meeting, and that
whatever
> actions they had done outside the meeting had no bearing on their
> spirituality. This doesn't seem like a correct principle to me.
>
> Sid
>
> --------------
> Sid,
>
> I believe what Lynn Ridenhour is referring to in talking about the
> 'laboratory' experience is not so much the roll-up-the-sleeves and
be
> personally involved situation you describe. I think he is
referring to
the
> exercise of the gifts of the spirit -- tongues, prophesying, giving
a word
> of knowledge, healing, etc.
>
> When was the last time you did THAT in one of your PEC or even FHE
meetings?
>
> Sterling
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sid Unrau Gentleman and Father" <sidunrau@...>
> To: <sterlingda@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:36 AM
> Subject: Sid's Questions/Comments
>
>
> Sterling:
>
> How do you (personally or as a group) feel persecuted? I was
surprised to
> read that in your letter (I know you are not a member of the
Church, is
that
> what you are referring to?).
>
> Yesterday's reading from Lynn Ridenhour was interesting, but the
perspective
> demonstrated a lack of experience. Have you ever been on the Ward
Council?
> Since I've been on the ward counsel (various positions; currently
in the
> bishopric) I get to see "first hand" how the "experiment on the
Word" is
> carried out; it is amazing. And (Nibley once said that the best
kept
secret
> in the Church is the gospel) I didn't realize how much it is
emphasized
> UNTIL I was on the ward council that such "lab experiences" are
actually
to
> happen (and promoted to happen) in EVERY CJC home (each General
Conference
> stresses this; it is little understood, but refreshingly I find many
having
> family home evenings, family counsels, etc. - those are ALL
such "cottage
> experiences" Lynn seemed to find missing in CJC culture) regularly.
> Furthermore, home teaching and visiting teaching experiences are
supposed
to
> be such "labs." So I disagree that such things are not promoted by
the
> Church; they absolutely are.
>
> Sid
>
>