Steve I think you just outlined about what 7/8 of us have gone through in our
own
spiritual quest. It is almost unbelievable at first to even THINK that the
modern
church might be the ones in apostacy and not the radicals who are mentioning it.
In their eyes you are on the high road to apostacy and it will catch up with you
sooner or later and they will boot you out.

Then you will feel such a surge of freedom that you may go overboard for a
little
while and do some really strange things. Then you will settle down and find
some
like minded individuals, perhaps try to start a community of some sort, fail,
keep
to yourself for a few years, find some like minded individuals and wonder with
them
when is it going to be any different? When are we going to be able to live what
we
know Joseph Smith was teaching? Some go through a polygamy stage, some don't.
But
trust me the issue will arise. You will either decide Wilford Woodruff sold us
down the river and that we should be living polygamy still or you will think
that
Brigham young lied and we should NEVER have lived polygamy or you will think
Joseph
Smith was a pretty cool guy most of the time but not perfect and the polygamy
thing
was a crock. (Oh and just as an aside it will be really amazing if your family
is
still in tact at the end of 5 years or so, you have the same job and you aren't
in
some sort of financial crisis--it seems to come with the territory)

Welcome to David's Outcasts. Here we all are. Check out the archives. We all
believe differently but we know what's going on in Salt Lake doesn't cut it. We
are trying to figure out is there one Davidic Servant or a quorum of them? When
the h(*&% is he going to show up so we can get this show on the road? and so
forth.....

Some of us still cling pretty tightly to the scriptures and prefer to make
decisions right in line with our interpretation of them. Others of us are into
more eastern religion concepts (reincarnation or multiple mortalities, karma,
etc)
and others have found someone they suspect might be one of or THE davidic
servant.
Some here have written books and some have web sites and others just post a lot.

So welcome aboard Steve. You are obviously one of us. Hopefully we will be
able
to guide you through some of the more obvious pitfalls along your path, but hey
who
knows maybe you'll find some we hadn't even thought of yet.

It is exciting and fun and exhilariting and frustrating and you name it....But I
wouldn't trade it for the world and I am forever grateful for having walked this
path, thorny and rocky though it sometimes is.


Probably one or two of us will resonate with you and they will act as a
teacher/guide until you outgrow them and move on to someone else. (even if that
guiding is only through their thoughts on this list.)

We are a motley crew, given to sharp disagreements now and again, but searchers
all. You'll learn a lot about us in the archives. Perhaps Sterling could post
the
URL to the other archives also.

Good Luck,
Susan

steve skinner wrote:

> Jason ,
> Thanks for your comments. It gave some things to think about. But I am still
> struggling with many things that I see in the church(LDS). It seems that the
> church leaders seem to be keeping silent on the matters that appear to
> disagree(maybe they don't understand) with the scriptures and the teaching of
> the early church(Joseph Smith etc.). Or they are just allowing the people
> their free agency and allowing them to condemn themselves and only speaking to
> those who have ears to hear. I have prayed and prayed about these things and
> asked God to tell me what to do but, I just seem to be getting the answer to
> search it out for myself and do what I please. But then again once in a while
> I go through a stage where I feel guilty and wonder if I am just deceiving
> myself. I am really afraid of letting things go to my head and to start
> thinking that I know better then other. One thing that I feel though is that
> it is not right to leave the church at least not willfully. I am currently
> living in Japan and I am teaching English at a Junior hgh school but I have a
> fairly light schedule which gives me a lot of time to read. I have read at
> least a few hundred church related books in the last 2 years. I have read all
> sides (LDS, RLDS, Fundamentalist, antimormons and even a little born again
> material. I have come out of it all with a great respect for Joseph Smith and
> feel that he was a very misunderstood man. His early teaching were so simple
> as are the gospel as it is explained in the Book of Mormon. I then saw the
> church grow ever more strict it its ways and priesthood structures. It also
> appears that the heavens also seemed to become more and more closed. I see
the
> members doing many of the same things that the Nephites did in the Book of
> Mormon. They or we are gettng more and more worldly and getting caught up in
> the pride of our hearts. We look down on others and down on other churches.
I
> mean in the prideful snobish way. We have LDS churches adorned with worldly
> treasures. Just take a drive along the benches along the Wasatch front. We
> see people just retiring and just trying to take a spiritiual vacation. In my
> father's Stake in Utah there are only about two couples out on missions. Many
> just go to churha dn think that everything alse will just take care of itself.
> Many members that are spiritually aware deal with it in various ways.
> Occasionally we see people just trying to sort all of these things out. They
> start to talk about their opinions or ask questions and they are criticized as
> apostate or crazy. I have always been very conservative politically and some
> have looked at me as radical in my views. I just want to know 'Where are the
> answers"? If we ask our leaders they often say I don't know, pray about it,
or
> God will tell the brethren someday. They always say that we should seek the
> warm fuzzy burning feeling. But it seem like it was so much more in the Book
> of Mormon. What is different now? Are we living in the beginning of the
> seventh seal of revelations when the heavens are to be sealed for the space of
> about a half an hour? What should we all do? What would you do if you lived
> in the time of Samuel the Lamanite and he came and told you that your true
> church was wrong but your leaders said to just follow them? What about now?
> Maybe we should just endure and have faith. Is it a test?
> Sorry for all of the rambling but, I just needed to get some of these things
> off of my chest. I live in a very small branch here in Japan and there is
> noone I can really talk to about all this.
> Up in the air,
> STEVE
>
> Jason Maynard wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > First I don't want to spend my time writing about the leaders of the LDS
> > church, but I will make a brief comment. You kind of justified their
> > position by saying that they were "human". In other words, you are most
> > correct that we should not focus so much on them (outward) but more on our
> > own awful states of corruption (internal). I agree 100% with this
> > thinking. However, you should remember that all leaders from the very same
> > leaders that crucified our Christ, were also "human". So just because we
> > are all human gives us little excuse and them that are set as the light to
> > a people, even less excuse.
> >
> > Do you remember why Nephi said that the leaders of the Jews killed Christ?
> >
> > 2 Nephi 10:5
> > 5 But because of priestcrafts and iniquities, they at Jerusalem will
> > stiffen their necks against him, that he be crucified.
> >
> > The first reason given is because of priestcrafts. So how is that defined
> > by Nephi
> >
> > 2 Nephi 26:29
> > 29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold
> > priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto
> > the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek
> > not the welfare of Zion.
> >
> > I think what causes so many that "awaken" to our awful state to be so hurt
> > and speak out against the LDS leaders is because they see that the very sin
> > of these leaders
> > is the same sin of the leaders of the Jews. My intent isn't to spend all
> > the time complaining and name calling about these leaders, but to try and
> > awaken my family
> > to our situation as individuals and a people. However, almost 90% of the
> > time the response that you get is that "All is well in Zion". And surely
> > if all was not well in Zion
> > then the prophet would have said something. In other words, by their own
> > words and actions (leaders) they set themselves up for a light unto the
> > world that they
> > may gain the praises of the world, all in the name of missionary work.
> >
> > There are only two mind-sets. One, we currently are building Zion with in
> > the LDS church by way of the temple building projects and missionary work.
> > The second is that
> > we are as far from Zion as we ever have been, in fact, we are so hand in
> > hand with Babylon that we and all our family will fall with Babylon. I'm
> > not sure where you are at
> > but I can plainly see (with the starter help of Nibley "approaching zion")
> > that we are way off course and no one in the church leadership is
> > correcting that course.
> >
> > I first began to awaken to my awful state when I learned about the baptism
> > of fire and of the holy ghost. When It was confirmed to me that I had
> > never received it, I began
> > to truly seek to come unto Christ. During this time period my whole being
> > was focused on nothing but to come unto Christ. He became my focus like
> > never before in my life.
> > While this was happening over a four month process, I began to take notice,
> > how little this doctrine or how little Christ was even part of the LDS
> > experience. It was mainly
> > lip service to his name. In fact, count some fast and testimony meeting,
> > how many times the atonement of Christ is mentioned vs. GBH. It's a real
> > eye opener.
> >
> > I think that you see my point. As I began to listen and walk by the spirit
> > and truly hold onto the iron-rod, I learned that Christ is found outside
> > and independent of any existing church.
> > Yes, there are many sick within the LDS structure that can be helped by us
> > and you don't have to support the apostate condition of the church to help
> > them. Furthermore, I have
> > found many people out-side the church whom are even more receptive and who
> > help me learn of their ways. I was lead in December to a group of people
> > in the SLC valley
> > with whom I am part of as a family. This family is a sweat circle where
> > every two weeks, we gather to do our form of spiritual ritual called a
> > "sweat" in a lodge.
> > I have had some very spiritual experience during the 3-4 hour ceremonies,
> > comparable to ones in the temple.
> >
> > In fact, I no longer can have a temple recommend, since I cannot sustain
> > the brethren, nor will I pay a tithe to the church (However, I still pay a
> > tithe to the Lord and allow the spirit to guide me on how and to whom to I
> > pay).
> > Each of us are at different levels and I think that some may be guided to
> > stay within the church, but when does the time come that the Lord does not
> > wish for one to support financially or even full involvement an apostate
> > institution? Would you remain a devout catholic knowing that the catholic
> > institution has no power to save you, but can only hinder your progression?
> > In other words, if one comes to know that the LDS church is going down the
> > wrong path and by not taking a stance against that path, you are in fact
> > indorsing the direction,
> > do you think that you will be unaccountable?
> >
> > It all comes down to are you building Zion within yourself and outside?
> > Are your associations and the time you spend, building Zion within and
> > without?
> > If you truly seek to awaken people within the LDS church, there will come a
> > time Steve that you will be caste out. The current structure is to keep
> > the sheep asleep.
> > It's the matrix mentality.
> >
> > Love, Jason
> >
> > Why all of the unbelief in God and his Christ. I know that I will reap
> > some
> > wrath over this but here goes. I have heard people say over and over that
> > the LDS church is lost and I would agree if you are talking about the
> > members themselves as a whole. Even God himself stated that the church was
> > under condemnation. I even think that some of the leaders have done and do
> > some things that aren't always right. But then again they are Human. Just
> > as we all are. We make mistakes. I keep hearing some say that the Lord
> > has
> > totally rejected the LDS church and that we need new leadership or that we
> > need to just be on our own and worship God as we please. Many say that
> > they
> > have prayed and God has revealed to them that they are correct in leaving
> > the LDS church. I thought about it at one time but I haven't and one
> > reason
> > is because the thought came into my mind that maybe the test is not to see
> > if you can just get out of the church and see the mistakes and faults of
> > the
> > church and its leaders. But that the real test is to see who will endure
> > and do all that they can to open the eyes of the LDS, to love and give to
> > those who have so much but don't see it. And I thought where should a
> > person with open eyes be, but among the blind and the sick. Christ was
> > accused of being among the sinners and the publicans. And just to explain
> > myself a little more let me share one more opinion that I have. Just
> > because
> > we are LDS doesn't mean we are better than others or what you could call
> > saved. We are all individuals and we are all here for different reasons.
> > We all have strengths and weaknesses. Our Father know us all very well and
> > he has put each of us in the best situation for us to grow. And some of
> > us
> > accepted callings and were foreordained to do a work here in this life.
> > And I don't believe that all of those callings were in the LDS church.
> > Some may have been ask to be a holy man in India to do some type of
> > spiritual teaching of the people there. But each of us is given what we
> > can
> > comprehend and live. Each of us needs different things and our Father
> > knows
> > that.
> > And one more point. We all ask God many questions and I have found that I
> > often repeat the same ones over and over. I then realize that God has
> > already answered me and that it was I who was not listening. But at times
> > it seems that God tells me "Look Steve I have answered you already but you
> > don't seem to like my answer so just go ahead and do as you please." Then
> > comes an answer similar to the one that Joseph Smith received when he was
> > allow to let Martin take the plates. In other words we can create our own
> > realities. I recently read the book the "Holographic Universe" by Michael
> > Talbot and he proposes in the book that the universe is holographic or in
> > other words that it is all connected and that we are each part of it and
> > that we all create our own realities and we see what we want to see. I
> > just want to say that let us all be honest with ourselves(myself included)
> > and look inside our hearts and search diligently asking ourselves " Am I
> > doing what I want or am I doing what God sent me here to do". And the out
> > come and the paths may be different for all of us. Make sure we are seeing
> > Gods reality and not our own. Some of us must be living in a fantasy. And
> > I hope it's not me.
> > Good luck ,
> > STEVE
> > tap@... wrote:
> >
> > > --- In davids_outcasts@egroups.com, "Sterling D. Allan"
> > > <sterlingda@g...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To the contrary, the scriptures point to each
> > > > individual becoming a prophet and speaking in the name of the Lord.
> > >
> > > Im very sorry to say this Sterling but my personal investigation into
> > > this whole OMS business makes it necessary.
> > >
> > > Im not saying Art Bulla is the real OMS, I honestly dont know.
> > > But I must say I have seen him on this list "speak in the name of the
> > > Lord".
> > >
> > > I think your view is that many are OMS.
> > >
> > > So where is somebody on list, or even you Sterling, speaking "in the
> > > name of the Lord".
> > >
> > > You say it is the real thing, not ARt.
> > > So where's the beef, like old tv ad?
> > >
> > > Would the real OMS please stand up...and "speak in the name of the
> > > Lord".
> > >
> > >
> > > > Nope. Zion not going to be a nation of peons following orders of
> > > some man
> > > > who sets himself up as God to be infallible. Zion is going to be a
> > > nation
> > > > of kings and priests, prophets every one.
> > >
> > > Is Davids Outcasts going to be or now is part of this Zion?
> > > So where is the prophets, kings, and priests?
> > > Are you a prophet Sterling? Is Blayne or Laura or Lynn?
> > > Im not saying you are not.
> > > Im not trying to judge anybody.
> > > Just flapping my ears for this prophets to speak in name of the Lord,
> > > like you say it will be.
> > >
> > > And I agree, nobody wants to be bossed over by anbody, especiallyi in
> > > kingdom of God and the real Zion.
> > > But scripture does say perfectly clearly that those who will not hear
> > > real OMS will be dealt with severely by Lord.
> > >
> > > Im not saing Art Bulla is the real OMS.
> > > But the real OMS will have some kind of special authority and mission
> > > directly from Lord, and it will be very bad for those who will reject
> > > him or what he has to say (becasue, by logic, they are denying the
> > > Lord talking to them).
> > >
> > > So to reduce to lowest common denominator,
> > >
> > > 1) Where is the prophecy in name of Lord from this list?
> > >
> > > 2) How can real OMS not be man of special authority but still
> > > everybody in Zion is their own prophet. I just cannot see how you can
> > > miss what scriptures say so clear about OMS.
> > >
> > > Just asking.
> > >
> > > -Annie
> > > >
> > > > Sterling
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ?$BCg4V$H$O$8$a$k!"Cg4V$r8+$D$1$k!!#e%0%k!<%W?(B
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> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > http://click.egroups.com/1/3411/13/_/_/_/961609431/
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