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Re: A reply to: Mendenhall: Other vibes   Message List  
Reply Message #10092 of 33787 |
to be posted to
 
Robert,
 
I must say that I am not impressed with Tom Nibley's "defense" of the idea that seems "preposterous" among mainstream sleeping Mormons that (1) a 10-year-old (2) girl (3) would have the kind of spiritual experiences that she has had.
 
He falls all over himself, having a foot in two camps at the same time, a mixture that is virtually impossible.
 
Either you believe that all mankind (including women and children) are entitled to have a personal relationship with the heavens, or you believe that one man on earth -- the Mormon prophet (and maybe to a lesser extent the apostles and prophets, and maybe possibly on occasion some of the general authorities, and on an extremely rare occasion a stake president or bishop, and then maybe once in a decade or century a woman) -- is entitled to such.  The Mormon world at present is in this latter mind-set, which is neither scriptural nor inspiring.  Denise' message is squarely in the former camp.
 
You can't have it both ways, and Tom's attempt to appease both camps is quite ridiculous.
 
Is the book "My Peace I Give Unto You" scripture?  I would call it that.  It is given of the spirit of God, and so far as I know, that is what scripture is about -- the revealed word of God.
 
To me, whether or not the word "scripture" applied was not even an issue.  I read the book, listened to the firesides, and the Spirit touched my soul.  That is the "scripture" I'm concerned with, not whether or not it has the "official" status as such.
 
But someone from the Mormon world would find my assertions to this effect completely out of line and at cross-hairs with the Mormon hierarchical order of things.
 
The LDS world is so out of whack that the one man who people look to to be a spokesman for God has far fewer spiritual experiences than this ten(now twelve)-year-old girl who probably has more spiritual encounters in one day than the Mormon prophet has had in a lifetime.
 
Would to God that all were prophets.
 
That is the theme here.
 
Not, "oh my gosh, Denise thinks SHE is the prophet now!!!! Run away, run away.  Blasphemy, apostasy, danger, danger."
 
The possibility that she could be A prophet(ess), or that there could be MANY prophet(ess)s does not even enter their psyche.
 
How silly, but unfortunately too true.
 
Sincerely,
 
Sterling D. Allan
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Lake" <roblake@...>
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@...>; "David Skousen" <davids@...>; "Doug Mendenhall" <halmendenhall@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:16 PM
Subject: A reply to: Mendenhall: Other vibes

Dear David,
   I hope you do not mind me commenting on your
email to Sterling.  He sent it to me and I just
wanted to thank you for your honesty.  Denise's
experiences were very hard for me to understand
and accept also.  In fact, it took me 6 months
before I was ready to hear the whole story. 
   Since then, however, I have come to believe
that what I was told was true.  Some very
powerful experiences I had while writing the book
have assured me that the Savior of Mankind is
truly concerned with my (yours and everyones)
personal life and willing to stand by me if I but
seek Him out.  I believe that if my faith were
great enough, I too, could see as Denise sees.
   Anyway, I thought I would pass on to you a
letter that Tom Nibley wrote at Dougs request to
send out to his family as a way to introduce the
book.  It's a long story but suffice it to say
that Doug's wife's family felt much the same way
you do. 
   May the Lord continue to richly bless you.

Robert Lake



To Whom It May Concern,

Denise Mendenhall, a chosen Handmaiden of the
Lord, has her story told in the book My Peace I
Give Unto You, written by her father, Doug, and
Rob Lake. This book is a testimony to the world
that Jesus Christ, the Redeemer and Savior of the
World, loves and cherishes each and every one of
the children of men. It as been written by the
guidance of the Spirit, and the Spirit will
testify to any who read and ask with a sincere
heart that it is from God.

Some people have questioned whether God would
even allow, much less inspire such a work. Well,
there are many scriptures that attest to that
possibility. In fact (although Doug and Rob want
it to be absolutely clear that their book is not
and should not be considered to be scripture) the
canon of scripture as a whole testifies that God
speaks to His children, often when they are very
young. Some examples are Samuel, dedicated to the
Lord as an infant and called upon by God while
yet a child (see 1 Samuel 1, 2:18-19, 3:1-19),
John the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy
Ghost from his mother's womb and ordained to the
priesthood when eight days old (Luke 1:41; D&C
84:27-28), Mormon, recognized and appointed to
keep the records of the Nephites when he was only
ten (Mormon 1:2-3), and Joseph Smith who was
visited by the Father and the Son when fourteen
years old (JS-Hist. 1:14-17).

Some may object to Denise's story because she is
a girl, saying that God never works through
women. But in the Bible there is mention of four
prophetesses, Miriam (Ex. 15:20), Deborah (Judg.
4:4), Huldah, (2 Kgs. 22:14), and Anna (Luke
2:36). In the Book of Mormon Abish is moved to
gather the people to witness the miraculous
conversion of the Lamoni and his queen, then she
is given power to raise the queen from what
appears to be death at which point the queen
bears testimony of Jesus as Savior (Alma
19:16-17, 29). And in the Doctrine and Covenants
Joseph Smith is commanded to ordain Emma to
"expound scripture, and to exhort the church,
according as it shall be given thee by my
Spirit." (D&C 25:7) Clearly the Lord is willing
to use women to serve Him as He sees fit.

The question remains, "Why Denise?" The simple
answer; "Why not?" God calls whom He wills, when
He wills. Most of the prophets in the scriptures
have been soundly rejected by any number of
people for any number of reasons. If you want to
reject the Lord and those He calls, you can
always find a reason. However, for most people
that is not a satisfying answer. In, fact the
answer to why Denise in particular had her
experience may be a long time coming, based on
what she does over a long period of time. But
there is a general answer to why this type of
thing might happen that is wholly scriptural.

These are the last days (D&C 64:23). But they are
not unique in that respect. Any time when there
is a great change that change is preceded by a
period that can be called the last days. And when
such a time deals with God's people, He sends
forth warnings; "and in that same year there came
many prophets, prophesying unto the people that
they must repent." (1Ne. 1:4), "and there were
many holy men in the land, and they did speak the
word of God with power." (Wof Mor. 1:17), "And
there began to be men inspired from heaven and
sent forth, standing among the people in all the
land, preaching and testifying." (3Ne. 6:20). By
now you're probably saying, "But Denise isn't a
holy man, and she isn't preaching, prophesying,
and calling to repentance. Agreed on all counts.
What the above scriptures do is establish that
God, in times of impending crisis, sends forth
lots of notification to His children that they
need to prepare. Among the things He sends are
signs and wonders. Denise fits into this
category.

"But," comes the cry, "we're not to seek for
signs! 'A wicked and adulterous generation
seeketh after a sign.(Matt. 16:4)" True. So let's
not seek signs. But let's also not discount signs
when they come. "And these signs shall follow
them that believe.. And they went forth, and
preached every where, the Lord working with them,
and confirming the word with signs following.
Amen." (Mark 16:17, 20) But also remember "ye
receive no witness until after the trial of your
faith." (Ether 12:6)

So when a person has passed the trial of his
faith he can fully expect that God will confirm
that faith by signs, such as Denise's recovery
after having been declared beyond hope by
competent doctors. For those who have no faith
but demand signs, such signs are usually argued
away if they come, and no faith follows. For this
reason miracles are often not performed when
there are unbelievers around (see Matt. 13:58).
But there are exceptions to this rule.

When a period of immanent change is upon us; a
"last days" scenario, then God takes more drastic
action. For instance, shortly before His
crucifixion Christ raised Lazarus before a number
of witnesses, but the only effect it had on the
Pharisees was to make them more determined to get
rid of Him. (see John 11) In the New World there
were great changes both at the time of Christ's
birth and death. And both were preceded by a
period when miraculous signs were given to the
general population, believers and unbelievers
alike, "For behold, Nephi was. showing signs and
wonders, working miracles among the people, that
they might know that the Christ must shortly
come-" "But it came to pass in the ninetieth year
of the reign of the judges, there were great
signs given unto the people and wonders..
Nevertheless, the people began to harden there
hearts, all save it were the most believing part
of them." (Helaman 16:4, 13, 15) "And in the name
of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean
spirits; and even his brother did he raise from
the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered
death by the people. And the people saw it, and
did witness of it, and were angry with him
because of his power; and he did also do many
more miracles, in the sight of the people, in the
name of Jesus.. and there were but few who were
converted unto the Lord." (3Ne. 7:19-21)

We are now in a time like those written of in
Helaman and 3 Nephi. Signs and wonders will
abound. I personally feel that Denise's
experience is a part of those phenomena, and
encourage anyone who reads her story to
prayerfully consider what it can mean in their
life, and seek the Lord's will for them in
preparing for the great changes that are soon to
come.




   You are amazing to ask why I suspect Denise has been deceived. Most others would not want to know.
   Below are a few comments for your consideration:

> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: "David W. Allan" <david@...>
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:43 AM
> Subject: GRATITUDE

> When Denise was ten she went into an unexpected diabetic coma for three
> days. . .  During those three days, her spirit was with the Savior on the other side of
> the veil and He showed her and taught her a great deal.

   It is not necessary in the economy of heaven for the leader to be involved in this manner.  The principle is, "Whether by me or my servants, it is the same." An angel may have been acting in the name of Christ, but that's not what the rest of the story claims:

> She was shown His birth, His crucifixion, His resurrection, His ministration to
the Americas, and much, much more.  For example, she saw the City of Enoch.

A person with this kind of knowledge would be under tremendous pressure by the Adversary to balance the equation. The greater the revelation, the greater the pressure. Is this necessary information for her salvation? She can be a witness of these things to others, that is true. But these are like "signs" in the heavens and the earth beneath. They are wonderful but the question is why we are here. Is it not to have our hearts purified? And how does that happen? Only one way: through suffering the pangs of hell-fire. Only by this means do we ask the proper questions, receive the needed information (by whatever means God proposes), and   change our thinking and feeling to a more loving [Godly] state.
   The greatest test is NOT to have the signs and revelations experienced by Denise. The greatest test is to live WITHOUT these signs, and have to believe by faith. It may NOT be a blessing to receive such convincing information if one is to live by faith.
   One of teh greatest saviors of mankind is pain. This is a secret, or sorts, I suppose. It is not the only savior, however. But it saves us from the inebriation of our physical senses and needs.
   In the case of Denise and her family, it was pain that brought them to this marvelous experience. But, like I say, I don't feel this is legitimate, somehow. The PLAN is to walk by faith, not by sight. Look at what she's seeing! --

> . . . the veil was not placed again over her mind.  She can see spirit beings --
> including the Savior -- as they come and go, and she can see everyone's aura
> and knows that different colors indicate different spiritual and/or
> emotional characteristics.  Her recovery is nearly totally complete with
> some slight limitations on the right side of her body.  She knows with
> clarity that the spirit-world is right around us, and this was so different
> for her upon her return to her body that she sought to stay next to her
> daddy all of the time (night and day) because she was so taken back by
> seeing what she was immediately around her.  Specifically, it was
> interesting to learn from her that children and handicapped people have
> white auras and rarely does an adult have a white aura; they are usually
> yellow.  Red is an indication of anger in the person -- often the color of
> mothers in a mall with their children.  Purple is an indication of pride and
> she often sees this around doctors.

   Now I believe that people are surrounded by light, and that their feelings can be sensed, perhaps as colors. There are many who have these gifts of discernment. But this whole scenario of Denise brings to mind some of the Catholic stories that are so highly suspect.
   Following is a problem for me:
>
> Now, her feelings about the atonement are very poignant.  She saw the Savior
> in agony on the ground in the Garden of Gethsemane -- bleeding from every
> poor.

   Well, this is interesting. We "say" Jesus bled from every pore, but this is not what the NT says: it was "as if" he bled from every pore. This is code for something else that is being expressed. The "as if" principle, you know well, is NOT to be taken literally. It could be, but probably NOT, according to other examples in scripture.
   Now I realize this counters LDS quotes about Christ's bleeding, and I'm not going to battle modern prophets on that score. I'm just speaking about the way the bleeding is described in the NT.


She had a really hard time watching His pain.  She saw the crown of
> thorns, the nails driven in the hands and in the wrists.  He told her, "You
> must watch, Denise."

   Very touching and sweet, in a sense, and very horrible. She can have her own Gethsamane, and she must have her own, as must we all, but it is NOT THE PHYSICAL PAIN that saves. The real pain was in the Garden of Gethsamane. It was the comprehension of the ultimate price of sin, the effects of it, the pain inflicted on the whole Cosmos by our wickedness. The cross was torture of a different nature. It was also an enduring of one's faith under extreme duress.
   So Denise would be deeply moved, as would anyone, by such a vision. In fact, normally it would cause an emotional shock to give one nightmares, etc., we could suppose.
   In another report she mentioned talking with Jesus often and giving him hugs, etc. None of this would be true except that there is great purpose in it. Joseph Smith had many visions, but those of Denise seem to surpass most of those. What is the purpose here?
   You include a quote, below:
>
"Thou shalt thank the Lord thy God in all
> things. . . . And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his
> wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things." (D&C
> 59:7, 21.)
>
   I don't want to be caught on the wrong side of this one. It is too precious, if true. But on the other hand, I feel warned, and wanted to share this with you without having a proper intellectual case to present.
   Meanwhile, I do not judge those who accept this fantastic vision. I want it to be true. We need to feel connected to Home as we whirl in the blackness of space through time.
   --David



Mon Oct 29, 2001 1:34 am

sterlingda888
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Message #10092 of 33787 |
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to be posted to http://www.greaterthings.com/NDE/Denise_Mendenhall/ Robert, I must say that I am not impressed with Tom Nibley's "defense" of the idea that...
Sterling D. Allan
sterlingda888
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Oct 29, 2001
1:32 am

Most people I have noticed who put down these experiences as deception are usually those who have not had these type of experiences and are somewhat...
Todd Jumper
enoch144
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Oct 29, 2001
8:09 pm

I often chuckle as I think of the mission that Denise is fulfilling and the buttons she pushes: 1. she is a child and a very normal one 2. she is a...
Susan Carter
susan121449
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Oct 31, 2001
8:10 pm
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